Shallan and Veil, a concerning portrayal

[bluefoxicy]

Veil's integration raises some concerns.  It came across as if Veil decided Shallan needed her to cease to exist if she was going to heal.  Shallan even argued against this, and cried about it afterwards.

In real life, multiplicity isn't seen as pathological.  Some systems do integrate, but others remain separate, by choice.  Healing isn't integration, although sometimes integration is healing; it depends on the system in question.  The portrayal of Veil's integration suggests that for Shallan to confront her past, Veil must cease to exist; or that once Shallan confronts her past, Veil must cease to exist for her to be healed.  That's not how any of this really works, and it reads as Veil leaning into social expectations and invalidating her own individuality.

Shallan herself is an interesting case.  She's traumatized by her memories, and Veil seems to have emerged spontaneously; on the other hand, she also has some control, creating Radiant as a personal mask designed almost by intent, though she seems to also explore who she is rather than force a design upon her new identity.  Tulpamancers create alternate identities that way sometimes, but not nearly as easily; Shallan is still traumatized and emotionally unstable, but she's also handling it on her own terms.  The danger of spontaneous identities emerging from trauma remains, and is exhibited by the last incomplete identity the entire system is afraid of.

In rare cases, tulpamancers have actually managed to switch out and allow their tulpas to front for them; again, this is much easier for Shallan because her multiplicity comes from trauma, not from intent.  While tulpamancy requires creating an image of another identity, understanding them, talking to them, and, importantly, allowing them to talk back rather than controlling their thoughts and actions, Shallan can conjure up an image of what she needs when overwhelmed with the pressures put upon her and slip into that identity easily, then step away and let it act on its own.  Although tulpamancers have, in extremely rare cases, allowed a tulpa to front permanently and then dissolved their original identity, Shallan almost does this due to emotional distress, marking another distinction between tulpamancy and DID.

Overall, multiplicity isn't illness.  Some people do it intentionally; others are forced into it by trauma.  Some people who get alters from trauma resolve their trauma and then continue to operate as a system, establishing boundaries, deciding how to share time, and creating trust among their alters; others resolve their trauma and then agree on integration.  In clinical settings, when an alter expresses they don't want to integrate, the therapist supports their decision and helps to mediate; integrating an alter against their will is considered a severe violation of patient consent and a breach of ethics.  Experienced therapists will halt integration if an alter appears to be seeking integration because they are no longer useful and have no valid reason to exist, or because they feel unwanted, because that's not considered consent.  Guilt, distress, social pressure, and other such things are not considered healthy reasons to decide to cease to exist.

Veil is a common case of purpose-based identity.  It's surprisingly common for the host (if there is such a thing—this is unclear, especially when multiplicity is developed from a young age) to recover from their trauma and find their alters to be valuable, while their alters spiral into depression and view themselves as no longer having a right to exist because their purpose was to protect the host from an emotional scar.  They desire to cease to exist because they see themselves as an illness, as if their existence is inherently wrong.  In modern psychiatric settings, alters are considered valid as people simply because they have agency.

It's also common for such alters to resurface.  Notably, alters that were integrated because they thought that was the "right" thing to do frequently resurface when the host becomes more emotionally stable.  Given time, they may reject the claim that healing means singularity, and as they gain greater agency over their own healing.  In other words:  sometimes the host needs to heal and grow further, and bringing back others in the system is a sign of that healing.

Some people choose this, no matter how they start out.  It's important to understand that people have a right to choose.

[Duxredux he/him]

If you're concerned about this, you might as well look at what Brandon has said on the subject. He doesn't portray mental illness lightly and thinks hard about how it will be received. He's consulted with people with DID with where he has taken Shallan. Perhaps the most important note is that Shallan is not meant to be a general portrayal - and the magical components to her trauma and coping strategies lend to this. For example, he's said that just because Veil was incorporated does not mean that Radiant will as well.

WoBs condensed in spoiler:

Spoiler

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

So, a couple of things here. First off, I'll take any knocks I get--and try to do better. I'm not an expert on mental health, and though I do my best, I'm going to get things wrong. I'm going to risk defending myself here--and hopefully not dig myself deeper--as I at least explain my thought process, and why I built Shallan the way I did.

However, one of the rules of thumb I go by is this: individual experience can defy the standard, if I understand that is what I'm doing. Like how Stephen Leeds is not trying to accurately portray schizophrenia, Shallan is not trying to accurately portray dissociative identity disorder (if a scholarly consensus on such a thing even exists. I haven't glanced through the DSM5 to see what it says.)

In Legion, I have an easy out. I say, point blank, "He doesn't fit the diagnosis--he's not a schizophrenic, or if he is, he's a very weird one." I don't have the benefit of a modern psychology voice in the Stormlight books to hang a lantern on this, but my intention is the same. What Shallan has is related to her individual interaction with the world, her past, and the magic.

Is this Hollywood MPD? I'm not convinced. Hollywood MPD (with DSM4 backing it up, I believe) tends to involve things like a person feeling like they're possessed, and completely out of control. The different identities don't remember what others did. It's a very werewolf type thing. You wake up, and learn that another version of you took over your body and went out and committed crimes or whatever.

Shallan is coping with her pain in (best I've been able to do) a very realistic way, by boxing off and retreating and putting on a mask of humor and false "everything is okay" attitudes. But she has magical abilities that nobody in this world has, including the ability to put on masks that change the way everyone perceives her. She's playing roles as she puts them on, but I make it very clear (with deliberate slip-ups of self-reference in the prose) that it's always Shallan in there, and she's specifically playing this role because it lets her ignore the things she doesn't want to face.

She's losing control of what is real and what isn't--partially because she can't decide who she wants to be, who she should be, and what the world wants her to be. But it's not like other personalities are creeping in from a fractured psyche. She's hiding behind masks, and creates each role for herself to act in an attempt to solve a perceived shortcoming in herself. She literally sketched out Veil and thought, "Yup, I'm going to become that person now." Because Veil would have never been tricked into caring about her father; she would have been too wise for that.

I feel it's as close as I can get to realism, while the same time acknowledging that as a fantasy author, one of my primary goals is to explore the human interaction with the supernatural. The "What ifs" of magic. What if a person who had suffered a great deal of abuse as a child COULD create a mask for themselves, changing themselves into someone stronger (or more street-smart who wouldn't have been betrayed that way. Would they do it, and hide behind that mask? What would that do to them and the world around them?

DID is indeed controversial, but I really like this portrayal. Not of a disease, but of who this character is. And I've had had enough positive responses from people who feel their own psychology is similar that I'm confident a non-insignificant number of people out there identify with what she's doing in the same way people with depression identify with Kaladin.

General Reddit 2018 (Jan. 12, 2018)

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Brandon Sanderson

Chapters Four and Five

Here's an annotation for these chapters! One of the most revised sequences of this book were these Shallan chapters--continuing through the entire novel. As I have said elsewhere, I originally designed Shallan's mental state to be a more fantastical look at something like Dissociative Identity Disorder. (Like the fantastical look at Schizophrenia I did with Stephen Leeds.)

I was fascinated by how something like mental health challenges relating to identity would intersect with magic that let you quite literally become someone else. The original version of this was for a character I wrote in Dragonsteel--which I'll eventually release to the public like I've done with TWOK Prime.

In this series, however, I've found myself leaning away from the fantastical elements more and more, and trying to lean into the real science and best mental health practices. This is because I've realized that having Shallan's ailment be completely fantastical was both irresponsible (in representation terms) and less realistic. Where I settled earlier in the series was in representing not someone with a fantastical disease, but someone with a very real disease--that is exacerbated by fantastical elements.

Because of this, I listened very hard to my beta readers on Shallan, particularly those with specific experience in this area. In the original draft of these scenes, for example, Shallan wasn't shifting between the various alters of herself nearly as often--and with some feedback, I tweaked that, and found it not only worked better in a realism way, but it also read far, far better. It's simply more interesting to see Shallan's different aspects doing different things, thinking different ways.

Some of the most satisfying moments in revisions come when you try something different, and find that it's what you wanted to do all along--but didn't quite know how to accomplish until a comment nudges you.

Rhythm of War Annotations (Aug. 4, 2020)

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

But now since Veil has been incorporated, so Veil is Shallan now, again. Which is one of those things that as I was doing it, I recognized could be controversial in the D.I.D. community, because there are various different opinions about whether incorporating alters is good for the individual, or not. The decision I made on this is, it was good for Shallan in that circumstance. Using my best understanding of the psychology, and the treatment recommendations, and knowing both sides of that argument. It was the right thing for Shallan right then. That doesn't mean necessarily that she has to incorporate Radiant in order to be healthy. I will just point that out.

Shardcast Interview (Jan. 23, 2021)

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simon_thekillerewok

That's interesting that you had this DID direction planned for Shallan since the beginning (pre-Way of Kings I presume). I had just assumed it was something that you developed in between WoR and Oathbringer. I know you've commented on subjects related to this before - but in light of what you're saying about leaning away from the fantastical, I'm curious to know if you think that if Shallan had become, say, an Edgedancer instead (or just never continued in her truths), that she would have developed DID and those aspects regardless? Or would she just have had her trauma manifest in other ways (such as other dissociative disorders like depersonalization/derealization/amnesia)?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say that she would have gone the same way she has, but the manifestations of her disassociation would have been different. But this is something I could perhaps waver on.

LewsTherinTelescope

I've seen quotes from you before that you didn't intend her to actually have DID, is that just about it originally being more fantastical, and now you're trying to make it actually be realistic more?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that's what is happening here. I originally shied away from it, as I didn't want to open that can of worms--but then, I realized I was opening it anyway, and the only way to be honest was to admit what I was doing and get some people who have DID themselves to advise me.

I think, in hindsight, I was trying to take too much of an easy path--and the path that didn't require me to do the work like I needed to

pweepweemuggins

Aha! So that's what you did. I immediately noted in the first chapters that Shallan's illness seemed to have gotten worse. I thought that it was you alludIng to a downward spiral of the characters in conjunction with the world of Roshar - which made sense because, if you place a mentally ill person in a world with no access to mental healthcare and then make their situation worse, what would happen? Their mental illness would get worse.

I'm surprised that it was just a change in the way you write her.

If you had the option to go back and revise all of her chapters that way, would you?

Because as it is, the real-ness and definition of her other egos reads like a downward spiral.

Brandon Sanderson

What you're noticing is not just me changing the way I'm writing her. More, I realized that her downward spiral was going to require me to actively deal with her mental illness in a responsible way, if that makes sense.

I wouldn't change much about the past books. It was more that I realized that the place she was going in this one required a more delicate touch than I could manage without some expert help.

Rhythm of War Preview Q&As (Aug. 5, 2020)

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Djoic

You previously confirmed Kaladin has a depression. What about other two characters? Does Shallan has split personality disorder? And Dalinar has PTSD?

Brandon Sanderson

I don't know that I'd say Shallan has straight up DID--and that is a controversial topic even under the more current terminology. More, Shallan is certainly disassociating herself, but the result is something I consider very individual to her. (Unlike Kaladin's fairly textbook chemical depression.)

Dalinar has had some PTSD, though you'll see more of the traditional symptoms in Kaladin, and is a recovering alcoholic--and a few other things.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 15, 2018)

 

 

[bluefoxicy]

19 hours ago, Duxredux said:

he's said that just because Veil was incorporated does not mean that Radiant will as well.

WoBs condensed in spoiler:

That's interesting.

My main concern here was the implication that healing = integration, but also the portrayal of Veil's integration appeared to be a case of "I'm not needed anymore, so I shouldn't exist" which is surprisingly common.  In a lot of modern literature, alters are considered distinct and valid individuals because they have agency, not because they perform a function in mitigating trauma or whatever else; and the system is built on consent: integration happens because everyone involved wants to, not because they're coerced or depressed about the supposed inappropriateness of their existence.  It is completely valid for a person to get past their traumas and then continue on as a system instead of integrating, just as it's valid for them to integrate (so long as they all agree); my concern is that the portrayal seems to stigmatize this with Shallan insisting she doesn't want Veil to disappear while Veil insists she no longer has a purpose and needs to disappear for Shallan to be healthy.

Maybe I'm reading into it too much.

[QuantumAce]

On 4/19/2025 at 12:40 PM, bluefoxicy said:

My main concern here was the implication that healing = integration, but also the portrayal of Veil's integration appeared to be a case of "I'm not needed anymore, so I shouldn't exist" which is surprisingly common.

Disclaimer: It has been a while since I read that scene, so this is my memory of my interpretation. Its worth as much as you want to pay for it. 

I read it as "I'm not needed anymore, so I don't have to exist as a separate identity". More of "I get to retire" than "I need to cease to exist". Veil realized she had done everything she could for Shallan, and saw the opportunity to step back on her own terms. For Veil, that was more important than the allure of "one more job". Veil needs to walk away on her own terms as much as Shallan needs to learn to confront certain issues on her own. 

On 4/19/2025 at 12:40 PM, bluefoxicy said:

It is completely valid for a person to get past their traumas and then continue on as a system instead of integrating, just as it's valid for them to integrate (so long as they all agree); my concern is that the portrayal seems to stigmatize this with Shallan insisting she doesn't want Veil to disappear while Veil insists she no longer has a purpose and needs to disappear for Shallan to be healthy.

I think Shallan's reluctance is a reaction based on her personality and conditioning, more than a reflection of what she truly wants. Its natural for her to be sad about losing a friend and mentor, just like its natural for Kaladin to react to any perceived obstacle by stabbing it and brooding self righteously. Give Shallan a minute to process her way. I read this as playing up the drama a bit.

On 4/19/2025 at 12:40 PM, bluefoxicy said:

Maybe I'm reading into it too much.

1) Probably so. 

2) Questioning it is a strong indicator your interpretation is more accurate than most. 

[AquaRegia he/him]

I'd really love to participate in this discussion, but it's practically impossible due to it being in the "No WaT" antispoiler forum, and it's hard for me to remember now what parts of Shallan's story I know from WaT and what I knew before.  I'm not a system, but my wife is, so I do have some direct experience of how things can go.

I don't think any of the following observations are spoilery in terms of plot, but I'll cover them up just in case.  **POSSIBLE MINOR SPOILERS REGARDING SHALLAN'S INTERNAL REALITY IN WaT BELOW**

Spoiler

1) I don't think anything we've seen on the page implies that Shallan's process is "completed", or even static.  Certainly many of us have had the experience of feeling that something is "done", only to find later that it was but a step in a long road.

Spoiler

2) I don't think anything has happened that did not fully entail free agency of the participants.  Again, perception in a particular moment may give an impression which fades as time goes on... and if there is one thing Shallan is good at, it's not knowing things she knows but doesn't want to know.

Spoiler

3) Veil isn't "gone"; she has decided that Shallan is ready to "own" those skills and attributes, rather than continue to assign them to a separate person.  Veil knew she wasn't going to disappear, and viewed the process of integration, I think, as resulting in a more full and equal sharing of executive function with the Shallan persona.