[Theory] Honorblades and Nightblood.

[Laughing Fool]

Hey guys, first post and first topic here. I was reading all of the awesome theories here, combined with a Stormlight Archive re-read, and had an interesting thought. Tell me what you guys think. Just a heads up, I didn't exactly do my due diligence with the WoB quotes. I'm quoting mostly from memory, but if you guys think there is potential to this theory then I'll come back and flesh this out with links quotes and such.

Okay, so we have WoB that, on Roshar, Nightblood behaves very similarly to Shardblades. I think there is more to it than that. I think Nightblood behaves similarly to an Honorblade. (This may already be the prevailing theory, but I don't know if there is actual WoB to that effect.)

For one, Honorblades have more in common with Nightblood than they do with Shardblades. Honorblades are actual physical objects that are heavily invested; same as Nightblood. Shardblades, however, are Spren, which are mostly cognitive entities, that are mimicing the effects of Honorblades. Between Honorblades, Shardblades, and Nightblood, Shardblades are the odd ones out.

There is also the obvious similarity in their destructive potential. Honorblades and Nightblood are all very powerful tools. This is the superficial similarity that everyone makes and takes for granted. After that conclusion is reached, it's easy to stop thinking about it.

But what if the Honorblades made the Heralds instead of the Heralds simply being matched with the Honorblade that best suited them? In The Way of Kings CHAPTER 18: HIGHPRINCE OF WAR, there is an interesting piece of information.

Dalinar and Renarin passed a group of stonemasons carefully cutting a scene of Nalan'Elin, emitting sunlight, the sword of retribution held over his head.

That sword of retribution line really caught my eye. I guess it's a "what came first, the chicken or the egg" dilemma, but what if Nalan, who's Divine Attributes are Just / Confident which could easily lead to Retribution, became that way by holding the Sword of Retribution rather than the nameless Honorblade that Nalan wields having become known as the sword of retribution simply because it was Nalan wielding it?

I propose that the Honorblades are so heavily invested that they have a sort of Intent of their own, much like Shards of Adonalsium, that shapes the personality of their bearers. For example, if Jezrien and Nalan had initially been given each other's Honorblades, then perhaps Jezrien would be Just / Confident and Nalan would be Protecting / Leading.

This is where Nightblood comes in. Nightblood, like Honorblades, consumes Investiture in order to fuel the powers it uses to perform its Command. I'm proposing that, on Nalthis, Honorblades would have their own Commands. In this case, "Command" is what Nalthians call "Intent." In fact, I believe Vasher explicitly describes the process of giving a Command as visualizing the intent behind the Command. In other words, endowing something with an Intent. So if, on Roshar, Nightblood is using Investiture to perform its intent, that would mean that "Destroy Evil" would translate into an unknown Primary and Secondary Divine Attribute.

This is a rough draft of a theory, but I hope with some input from the community it can be fleshed out and formalized into a working theory to describe the relationship between invested objects, Intent, and Commands.

[Swimmingly]

The only problem I have with this is that Szeth never did exhibit those Protecting/Leading qualities. On the other hand, it may require a lot longer to shape someone. On the other other hand, maybe it was in part that conflict - between the Intent of his blade and his actions - that resulted is insanity.

Excellent theory! Welcome to the 17th Shard. Please collect your Hoid-hunting kit from Chaos and you'll be ready to go!

[Laughing Fool]

The only problem I have with this is that Szeth never did exhibit those Protecting/Leading qualities. On the other hand, it may require a lot longer to shape someone. On the other other hand, maybe it was in part that conflict - between the Intent of his blade and his actions - that resulted is insanity.

Excellent theory! Welcome to the 17th Shard. Please collect your Hoid-hunting kit from Chaos and you'll be ready to go!

Both of your suggestions can explain how Szeth handled the Blade equally well...so, why not both? It would certainly fit. Or maybe it's because he never truly bonded it? I think there's a quote somewhere about how one does not simply bond an Honorblade." or something to that effect. Maybe it was that you can't just bond an Honorblade, it has to be given to you? Curse my unreliable memory. There are so many quotes and theories floating around that if I think about an idea hard enough, I can convince myself that I read it as WoB somewhere.

[Tempus]

This is a good theory, but here are some things to consider. Spren are splinters (WoB). Splinters have intent (WoB). Splinters are chunks of investiture (WoB). Chunks of investiture can gain spontaneous sentience (WoB). Nightblood is fundamentally the same as a spren (WoB), and is a chunk of investiture (Warbreaker), has been given an intent(Warbreaker), and is sentient(Warbreaker); thus he is a splinter (Deduction). Shardic intent warps people (WoB) and all investiture has a similar warping effect dependent on the amount (WoB). So Spren and Nightblade almost certainly will warp people over extend periods of use (Deduction).

 

Honorblades, though... we don't know what they are exactly. They are not spren (Induction). They may or may not be splinters. They can bond with people, and most (possibly all?) splinters bond (three different WoB for Seons, Nightblood, and Spren on that). So they might be splinters, in fact should be splinters. But it's strange that they are different from Spren, if they are also splinters of Honor. Also strange that they have no sentience of their own. Not sure how invested they are. If they aren't heavily invested, they may not change personality much. Even heavily invested objects take time (See Vasher and Nightblood).

 

So, overall, your theory holds.

[Laughing Fool]

Thanks, Tempus. You said in a dozen words what I tried to allude to with hundreds. I'd by lying if I said I hadn't hoped this thread would catch your eye.

Investiture must transcend/saturate all three Realms. Spren are cognitive entities that have been Invested but have the unique property of bonding with humans to have a physical manifestation. It makes sense that their Cognitive Investiture carries over to the physical realm and behaves very similarly to Physically Invested objects (arguably what we're most familiar with). I would assume that Physical objects in the Cognitive Realm, Nightblood, for example, would have a much greater presence than non-Invested entities.

Spiritual Investiture is what's throwing me off at the moment. Could that be what humans are? Scadrians have a little bit of Preservation and Ruin in them, but I wouldn't say they were Physically Invested - not the way a Hemalurgic Spike is, at least.

And that's assuming there even is a distinction between Physically/Cognitively/Spirituality invested entities.

[Tempus]

I have to admit, I haven't solidified my theories on the realms. Everytime I have something, I find another bit that doesn't make sense and writing special cases out tends to make me through out the whole thing after a time or two. That said, investiture does indeed transcend all realms, though it has numerous special interactions in the spiritual realm.

[Shadowspren]

Both of your suggestions can explain how Szeth handled the Blade equally well...so, why not both? It would certainly fit. Or maybe it's because he never truly bonded it? I think there's a quote somewhere about how one does not simply bond an Honorblade." or something to that effect. Maybe it was that you can't just bond an Honorblade, it has to be given to you? Curse my unreliable memory. 

 

I know that the Coppermind Wiki isn't the most reliable source... and I haven't finished WoR as I have said before, but it says on the Wiki that anyone can use an Honour Blade. And Szeth's ability to dismiss and recall it shows that he has bonded with it to some extent. Has Szeth spoken the oaths...? because if he hasn't that may be the connection to why he can use the blade and gain power from it but not being influenced by the intent of the blade. Syl says that 'no spren guides him' or something to that effect. So I am thinking that to be truly bonded with the Honour blade one must still speak the oaths seeing how the there is supposed to be a herald and a blade to lead each of the sects of the Radiants. This is based off the limited knowledge though... 

[Mistdork]

 

I know that the Coppermind Wiki isn't the most reliable source... and I haven't finished WoR as I have said before, but it says on the Wiki that anyone can use an Honour Blade. And Szeth's ability to dismiss and recall it shows that he has bonded with it to some extent. Has Szeth spoken the oaths...? because if he hasn't that may be the connection to why he can use the blade and gain power from it but not being influenced by the intent of the blade. Syl says that 'no spren guides him' or something to that effect. So I am thinking that to be truly bonded with the Honour blade one must still speak the oaths seeing how the there is supposed to be a herald and a blade to lead each of the sects of the Radiants. This is based off the limited knowledge though... 

 

Honorblades don't need the oaths to be wielded. That's a requirement of spren; not Honorblades.

 

What we do know about how Honorblades work is that Shardblades are based on them. Some obvious implications are that they can bond and give their wielder access to surges. However, it may also be that the Heralds when their intents were in line with Honor's intent (before they broke the oathpact) may have kept the ideals in spirit, thus bringing out their blades' full potential. Since it seems awfully odd that Honorblades are so much weaker than Shardblades, it only makes sense that this is because the original wielders aren't using them or aren't keep their oath (or they're so corrupted that these are twisted too much for it to possible...for the moment, at least).

 

Thanks, Tempus. You said in a dozen words what I tried to allude to with hundreds. I'd by lying if I said I hadn't hoped this thread would catch your eye.
 

 

Also, Tempus is now officially "Theoryspren". Congratulations! You've received a new level of Sanderfandom!

 

@Tempus: Do we know for certain that splinters always have to be conscious? We see that the Shardblades (that are not "living" spren) are mostly "dead". Couldn't the Honorblades be "dead" in a similar fashion (that is, since the oaths of the Heralds are twisted and/or mostly dead)? What if the Honorblades are like Lerasium... Lerasium is almost a splinter, but not quite (there's a WoB somewhere that says this, but I can't recall where it is ), if the Honorblades are "almost splinters" and somehow can receive an extra boost if a non-twisted Herald is wielding the blades, that could explain the discrepancy in power levels and Honorblade strength. I admit this is a little left field, but there's not much evidence to go on either...

[Tempus]

@Tempus: Do we know for certain that splinters always have to be conscious? We see that the Shardblades (that are not "living" spren) are mostly "dead". Couldn't the Honorblades be "dead" in a similar fashion (that is, since the oaths of the Heralds are twisted and/or mostly dead)? What if the Honorblades are like Lerasium... Lerasium is almost a splinter, but not quite (there's a WoB somewhere that says this, but I can't recall where it is ), if the Honorblades are "almost splinters" and somehow can receive an extra boost if a non-twisted Herald is wielding the blades, that could explain the discrepancy in power levels and Honorblade strength. I admit this is a little left field, but there's not much evidence to go on either...

 

 

We know for certain splinters do not always have consciousness, or sentience if you'd prefer. Splinters, when left on their own, seem to develop sentience spontaneously - that's a fancy way of saying they do it whenever the conditions are right. We know for example that the Divine Breaths never seem to develop sentience when attached to Returned, and that spren sentience is crude until bonded with a human, and that there were or possibly still are some mindless splinters in the Sel area.

 

It's difficult to say what exactly the conditions to make a conscious splinter are, but at a guess they include: not being attached to another cognitive entity (esp. Humans), not having an explicit Intent, the Investiture strength of the splinter, and the original way the splinter was fashioned.

[Mistdork]

We know for certain splinters do not always have consciousness, or sentience if you'd prefer. Splinters, when left on their own, seem to develop sentience spontaneously - that's a fancy way of saying they do it whenever the conditions are right. We know for example that the Divine Breaths never seem to develop sentience when attached to Returned, and that spren sentience is crude until bonded with a human, and that there were or possibly still are some mindless splinters in the Sel area.

 

It's difficult to say what exactly the conditions to make a conscious splinter are, but at a guess they include: not being attached to another cognitive entity (esp. Humans), not having an explicit Intent, the Investiture strength of the splinter, and the original way the splinter was fashioned.

 

I feel utterly foolish for forgetting about Divine Breaths... Though, they always seemed like the odd one out of the splinters that we know about, perhaps another reason (to an extent) is that splinters are given a conscious intent through direction of a Shard (like bonding-spren before Honor splintered), through something like a command (Nightblood) that gives a splintered conscious intent ("human" intervention), or through shard shattering shenanigans. From what I recall, these are the main instances where splinters have developed sentience, perhaps the reason that Divine Breaths are different is that because they are "bonded" to humans in such a integral way those humans direct their intent. While in the other cases sentience develops to direct the splinter's new intent, with Divine Breaths it doesn't happen because human sentience directs and is deeply connected to the splinter... It's like when you leave a shard without a holder. That Shard will develop its own conscious/sentience (if it doesn't/isn't forced to splinter) base on its intent that directs that intent, perhaps one can see the Returned as "miniature" shard holders; like a Shard with a sentient host, they are bound to their splinter's intent.

 

But for some reason, I'm not sure I would see Honorblades as the same kind of splinters as Divine Breaths...or if they (somehow) are, that's rather freaky and would mean disturbing things...

Edited May 21, 2014 by Nymp