Crysanja Posted January 18, 2014 Report Share Posted January 18, 2014 the spren say they were betrayed by the humans. this seems the reason they didnt comunicate with anyone for a very long time. we know the knightradiants are comming back and they will have close relations with the spren, they need their cooperation and help. but what are the spren going to think about the more and more common use of fabricals? (the enslavement/slaughter(!?) of spren) are the future KR going to prevent the use of fabricals? dismantle/disenchant shardblades/plates to free the spren? i guess if fabricals would be accepted by the spren, the "old" KR would have used lots of them. how easy would it be to make them with the cooperation of the spren?, but we dont hear anything of old fabricals, except of the soulcasters(shardplate/plate?) we dont see any fabrical use in Dalinars visions. this has alot of confilct potential, who would accept to stop using/building them except the KR? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly Posted January 18, 2014 Report Share Posted January 18, 2014 I think it's just the non-sentient spren that are used in fabrials - I think. Maybe I'm wrong, though, and Navani is a war criminal responsible for binding hundreds of sentient creatures into a life of slavery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colby Jack Posted January 18, 2014 Report Share Posted January 18, 2014 Sprens should know about the existence of fabricals. If they don't, then Cultivation certainly does. What I don't understand is if fabricals are an atrocity, then why doesn't she stop it? Is she in some sort of honor system or oath of neutrality or whatever?It's too early to tell, but unless there's new information that proves me wrong, I will consider every spren to be sentient. Take Syl for an example. Before she was bonded to Kaladin she was considered "stupid" too. She didn't have the logic of a child or even a long term memory. Now, if she were to remain stupid, would it be alright for someone else to come along and capture her? Would it be alright to use or even sacrifice her for our own sake?Remember, even Kaladin thought Syl was a common windspren until she told him what she really was. If Navani, or someone like her, found Syl, could anyone tell the difference between an honorspren or a windspren? Would they even care? It's very likely that they will use Syl regardless. After all, she may have some special properties that must be studied, even if the experiments will hurt or even destroy her. As we find out in the recently released chapters, sprens can die.Sprens are what they are. If they can completely abandon the human world for thousands of years, it's obvious that they don't care much for us. However, they will definitely care about their own kind.So I can see this become a very big deal later on. Anyhow, I hope this does spark a conflict between the humans and the sprens, perhaps even the new Knight Radiants and their own kind. It's one of the main themes of the Stormlight Archive, isn't it? Make everyone really pissed off at each other and then force them to work together. As long as Amaram dies in the end, I'm okay with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timemaster11 Posted January 18, 2014 Report Share Posted January 18, 2014 On spren sentience, the reason Syl seemed to lack intelligence was because of the process of moving from Shadesmar to the physical world. In Shadesmar, spren would show there true intelligence. And Jasnah states about spren, “Spren are wild in their variety. Some are as clever as humans and create cities. Others are like fish and simply swim in the currents.” So it would appear that spren do vary in their intelligence, with some being naturally sentient and others not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomR Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 I think it's just the non-sentient spren that are used in fabrials - I think. Maybe I'm wrong, though, and Navani is a war criminal responsible for binding hundreds of sentient creatures into a life of slavery. I didn't think any spren were used in fabrials? Well, fabrials will have spren the same way hammers will, but fabrials AFAIK don't require direct use of the spren, unless there's a WOB out there somewhere or something I missed in the book (there may be; I'm still looking through old threads here). Shardplate/blades are probably linked to spren, but they're special, with the probable link to the Spiritual Realm and the fact they seem to have been created in the first place as part of the bond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikorr Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Fabrials work by trapping spren in gems, and them placing the gems into devices - in WoK there is a drawing from 'Navani's Notebook'. It has notations of trapping spren in gems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomR Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Fabrials work by trapping spren in gems, and them placing the gems into devices - in WoK there is a drawing from 'Navani's Notebook'. It has notations of trapping spren in gems. Interesting, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikorr Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 I just found this in one Dalinar's WoR vision : He stared at the hearth, which crackled softly, giving the small room a warm glow. This was one of the few hearths that hadn’t been converted to the new fabrial heating devices. He preferred the real fire, though he wouldn’t say it to Navani. She worked so hard to bring new fabrials to them all. That, combined to Kaladins reaction to winning a shardset seem too similar. One we know has trapped spren, the other we strongly suspect has trapped (once/sentient) spren. The one we know contains spren (the fabrials) appear unlikely to contain sentient spren....but Dalinar appears to have an aversion to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awesomeness Summoned Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 I just found this in one Dalinar's WoR vision : He stared at the hearth, which crackled softly, giving the small room a warm glow. This was one of the few hearths that hadn’t been converted to the new fabrial heating devices. He preferred the real fire, though he wouldn’t say it to Navani. She worked so hard to bring new fabrials to them all. That, combined to Kaladins reaction to winning a shardset seem too similar. One we know has trapped spren, the other we strongly suspect has trapped (once/sentient) spren. The one we know contains spren (the fabrials) appear unlikely to contain sentient spren....but Dalinar appears to have an aversion to them. I had interpreted that passage as akin to someone saying they liked the feel of a real hearth over an electric fire place (as I personally do). The dancing flames, crackling logs, smell, type of heat, etc., in a real fire create a certain aesthetic that an artificial one can't quite replicate. But knowing brandon you could be right and the thought held more significance than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natans Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 I think only the "minor spren" are trapped. Even The fabrials that replicate Surge powers must trap non-sentient spren. For example if one wanted replicate the Windrunners powers you wouldn't trap a Honor spren but bindsprens and gravityspren, spren that for what we know know don't have much in terms of personality and are direct related with that power. Side note - Following this logic i believe that to make soulcaster you don't need trap a liespren but trap a much more common spren the "creation spren". well that would be my guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macen Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Sprens should know about the existence of fabricals. If they don't, then Cultivation certainly does. What I don't understand is if fabricals are an atrocity, then why doesn't she stop it? Is she in some sort of honor system or oath of neutrality or whatever? It's too early to tell, but unless there's new information that proves me wrong, I will consider every spren to be sentient. Take Syl for an example. Before she was bonded to Kaladin she was considered "stupid" too. She didn't have the logic of a child or even a long term memory. Now, if she were to remain stupid, would it be alright for someone else to come along and capture her? Would it be alright to use or even sacrifice her for our own sake? Remember, even Kaladin thought Syl was a common windspren until she told him what she really was. If Navani, or someone like her, found Syl, could anyone tell the difference between an honorspren or a windspren? Would they even care? It's very likely that they will use Syl regardless. After all, she may have some special properties that must be studied, even if the experiments will hurt or even destroy her. As we find out in the recently released chapters, sprens can die. Sprens are what they are. If they can completely abandon the human world for thousands of years, it's obvious that they don't care much for us. However, they will definitely care about their own kind. So I can see this become a very big deal later on. Anyhow, I hope this does spark a conflict between the humans and the sprens, perhaps even the new Knight Radiants and their own kind. It's one of the main themes of the Stormlight Archive, isn't it? Make everyone really pissed off at each other and then force them to work together. As long as Amaram dies in the end, I'm okay with that. All evidence we have as of yet is that there are only 10 kinds of spren that are sentient. These are the 10 types that are capable of binding to humans. So far we have only actually seen 5 types that are sentient. We know through WoB that Syl is not a windspren who 'became' sentient. She is an Honorspren which is a cousin to windspren. Believing that all spren are capable of sentience is not a bad thought, but majority of the evidence points to that not being true. We have seen or heard mention of close to 100 spren (I'm throwing a number out there that sounds about right) and as of right now, only 5 of them are sentient. And none of those 5 are members of a group we have seen who ISN'T sentient (Syl being a possible caveat for when she still acted like a wind spren). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikorr Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 I just realised I should have formatted my last post as : - Kaladins had an aversion to shardplate (yet he doesn't really know why) - Syl disdains shardplate (her comment re Dalinar giving up his shardplate), despite the fact it's theorised that spren helped make shardplate, she said of Dalinar 'it makes him a better man' - Dalinar's has an aversion to fabrial fireplaces (similar to Kaladins reaction - he didn't know why) - the Knights Radiant didn't seem to have any Fabrials (Dalinars comments on his visions) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 - the Knights Radiant didn't seem to have any Fabrials (Dalinars comments on his visions) The Stoneward in Dalinar's TWOK visions is theorized to have a healing fabrial (using a topaz and heliodor, as I recall). I'm not so sure they were against fabrial usage, particularly considering that they had to have been the source for Soulcasting fabrials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikorr Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Yes she's theorised to have one, yet Dalinar got a very good look at it, and says he's certain they didn't have Fabrials...that's a huge thing to overcome for that theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikorr Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 I'm not so sure they were against fabrial usage, particularly considering that they had to have been the source for Soulcasting fabrials. Where in any of the visions, is a soulcasting fabrial used? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 (edited) Yes she's theorised to have one, yet Dalinar got a very good look at it, and says he's certain they didn't have Fabrials...that's a huge thing to overcome for that theory. Dalinar is not very smart, was suffering from blood loss, and was in the middle of a battle with horrors made of shadow and smoke when the fabrial was used. He attributed the healing as one of the Radiant's powers, not thinking it could be a fabrial. When he thinks of fabrials, he thinks of heat without fire. Stonewards don't have Growth as a Surge, and the Radiant was most assuredly a Stoneward. The Radiant talked about using Regrowth and having to 'save' it. The healing the Radiant did was almost assuredly a fabrial. Where in any of the visions, is a soulcasting fabrial used? It's never used, but the Soulcasting fabrials the ardentia have are known to be very old. Where would they have come from if not the Radiants? Fabrial science is very recent, and will likely eclipse the Radiant's fabrials, which so far seem to only act as a way to replicate the Ten Surges. Edited January 20, 2014 by Moogle 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikorr Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 (edited) Dalinar is not very smart Uh, Dalinar does not show one iota of being dumb- he acts as a general, and conquered a land. Generals tend to be among the most intelligent and observant of people. He is now extremely honourable, and naive - but that isn't the same as dumb (no doubt cryptics would disagree). He's also assuredly seen more fabrials than we have. And he wouldn't tell Navani (who invents fabrials and means a hell of a lot to him) that he was certain they didn't have fabrials, unless he was certain. was suffering from blood loss, and was in the middle of a battle with horrors made of shadow and smoke when the fabrial was used. He was resting and focused - he described the gems perfectly...he's not going to forget (he's a soldier and general, and thinks about the implications of battlefield events) The Radiant talked about using Regrowth and having to 'save' it. Knights Radiant could have called any form of stormlight healing 'regrowth', and we don't know the last surge...so no it didn't have to be a fabrial. Edited January 21, 2014 by vikorr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 (edited) Uh, Dalinar does not show one iota of being dumb- he acts as a general, and conquered a land. Generals tend to be among the most intelligent and observant of people. He is now extremely honourable, and naive - but that isn't the same as dumb (no doubt cryptics would disagree). I said he was not very smart, not that he was dumb. He's passably clever - he figured out Elhokar's trick, after all. I just don't think he's on Jasnah's level, and I don't think he was particularly rested or focused at the time as he noticed the fabrial. Here's the scene: Dalinar pulled himself to Taffa. She was alive, though her side was torn and flayed. Seeli tugged at her, weeping. Need to…do something… Dalinar thought dully. “Be at peace,” a voice said. Dalinar lurched, turning to see a woman in delicate Shardplate kneeling beside him, holding something bright. It was a topaz entwined with a heliodor, both set into a fine metal framework, each stone as big as a man’s hand. The woman had light tan eyes that almost seemed to glow in the night, and she wore no helm. Her hair was pulled back into a bun. She raised a hand and touched his forehead. Ice washed across him. Suddenly, his pain was gone. The woman reached out and touched Taffa. The flesh on her arm regrew in an eyeblink; the torn muscle remained where it was, but other flesh just grew where the chunks had been torn out. The skin knitted up over it without flaw, and the female Shardbearer wiped away the blood and torn flesh with a white cloth. ... “I should save Regrowth for others who might be wounded,” the woman said, glancing at the village. The fighting seemed to be dying down. He's clearly not very clear-minded in this passage. The fabrial (if that's what it is) is not being used 'obviously' by having it be touched to wounds, as it is when Dalinar gets some hands-on experience with a pain-reducing fabrial. Dalinar is a soldier, not a scholar. I don't think it's in character for him to constantly theorize and think about the things he's seen and wonder if they might be fabrials, particularly when the fabrial he sees is nothing even close to what he is familiar with them doing. He's also assuredly seen more fabrials than we have. And he wouldn't tell Navani (who invents fabrials and means a hell of a lot to him) that he was certain they didn't have fabrials, unless he was certain. I think he was certain that he saw no fabrials, and that he was mistaken. An understandable mistake, too. I didn't connect the gems the Radiant was holding with a fabrial without a lot of meta-information about how Orders work. Plenty of people thought Stonewards had Growth for a while. Knights Radiant could have called any form of stormlight healing 'regrowth', and we don't know the last surge...so no it didn't have to be a fabrial. Doesn't have to be, but you're proposing a second Surge that heals when we already have a one. Wyndle himself declares healing to be 'Regrowth', and it belongs firmly to Lift in Order 4 (and is shared with Order 5). Stonewards do not have it. Here is Wyndle declaring it to be Lift's: “Your bond to me grants two primary classes of ability,” Wyndle said. “The first, manipulation of friction, you’ve already—don’t yawn at me!—discovered. We have been using that well for many weeks now, and it is time for you to learn the second, the power of Growth. You aren’t ready for what was once known as Regrowth, the healing of—” And the Radiant in the earlier vision calls it 'Regrowth' as well (see quote above). Finally, we have this WoB: Q: Fabrials replicate Soulcasting abilities. Is it possible for fabrials to replicate all such Surgebinding abilities? A: Yes, good question! Fabrials can replicate all of the Surgebinding abilities. (source) So yes, it doesn't have to be a fabrial, and we don't know what the final Surge is, but I really, really think it was a fabrial that the Radiant had in Dalinar's vision. It's not certain, but the evidence is suggestive. WoR will have more information I hope. Edited January 21, 2014 by Moogle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikorr Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 Yep, WoR will hopefully offer a lot more information. It will be interesting to see the outcomes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrono Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 I don't know why, but I always thought that the Stoneward Radiant was using a fabrial. Huh. Anyway, I think Natans is right- if mankind were to use the sentient spren in fabrials, I think all of them would just give up on humanity altogether and refuse to bond with humans. Although, since Jasnah in the new Words of Radiance Chapters suggests that Ivory -- her spren -- is an outlier and most spren wouldn't bother to bond with a human, I might be completely wrong. It'll be very interesting indeed to see how sentient spren interact with each other. I could easily see Syl getting into an argument with another unbonded spren about how "reckless and wild" she was in bonding with Kaladin. Not to mention that Shallan and Jasnah's spren are both going to be in considerably close proximity with Syl and Kaladin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikorr Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 You know...ever since that hint about Honorspren & Cryptics having a conflict, I've been most interested in what happens when Kaladin & Shallan meet (or more precisely, when their spren meet) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crysanja Posted January 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 hmm keep in mind, thouse silly windspren might be not that silly in shardsmar. i thought a bit more about this, with Jasnah having a spren, and using spanreds for a long time, we propably would know, if her spren is distrubed about it. we could propably learn alot from Shallans spren, but there is just not much communication yet. i mean she has a shardblade, if her spren hates it, he/she would tell her. if Shallans gift "memories" was from her spren, this would be very odd. it would mean she was bounded to a spren for a long time, with no communication with the spren at all. this enslavement/imprisonment/harvesting of spren for fabricals, could turn the spren community against humans. they could stay away and not bind with humans, or only very few spren would do so. if bond spren get realy angry they could do alot of harm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikorr Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 (edited) we could propably learn alot from Shallans spren, but there is just not much communication yet. i mean she has a shardblade, if her spren hates it, he/she would tell her. I think I mentioned in another thread - different spren likely react differently to events in the world. A Cryptic would appear to be the most pragmatic of spren (as well as the most complex, and perhaps the most dangerous) Edited January 21, 2014 by vikorr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkness Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 It's too early to tell, but unless there's new information that proves me wrong, I will consider every spren to be sentient. Take Syl for an example. Before she was bonded to Kaladin she was considered "stupid" too. She didn't have the logic of a child or even a long term memory. Now, if she were to remain stupid, would it be alright for someone else to come along and capture her? Would it be alright to use or even sacrifice her for our own sake? Remember, even Kaladin thought Syl was a common windspren until she told him what she really was. If Navani, or someone like her, found Syl, could anyone tell the difference between an honorspren or a windspren? Would they even care? It's very likely that they will use Syl regardless. After all, she may have some special properties that must be studied, even if the experiments will hurt or even destroy her. As we find out in the recently released chapters, sprens can die. Sprens are what they are. If they can completely abandon the human world for thousands of years, it's obvious that they don't care much for us. However, they will definitely care about their own kind. Quoting this because it's where I got the idea from: To recap - Spren are described by Shallan, and confirmed by Jasnah, as 'living ideas'. Brandon says they are fragments of shards that attained sentience. This has been documented in other places, like Sel: - Seons seemingly lost their sentience when their people got taken by the Shaod during the Reod, but recovered when Elantris was restored. They are Splinters of Devotion, patterned in the shapes of Aons. I would suggest that the Seons are powered by bonds with their humans. When the Elantrians were trapped in stasis, that bond was put on hold, and so the Seons' power source was halted, and they drifted aimlessly. Little bits of the Dor were still getting through (the power had a slow leak into the world), but only enough to attract the Seons to their people and to Elantris, but not enough to power them (or power the Aons). - In a similar fashion, spren have attained sentience through the people of Roshar. They are fragments of power, wandering about (like Seons without an active bond, but staying 'sentient' on the 'slow leak' of cognition from random humans) until they make a bond with a human. Because spren are most related to the cognitive realm, their bond strength manifests cognitively (E.g. no bond = no/limited cognitive function, strong bond = strong cognitive function). This would mean that, when the bond is broken, the spren loses its cognitive strength. - For spren, this would mean that they will remain sentient (although perhaps not cognitive; meaning they function, but not at a high level) as long as there is some leakage of cognitive energy - powered by human thought. So how would spren 'die'? I can think of 3 ways: 1. Spren count a return from cognitive function to base sentience as death, think of a person that goes into a lifelong coma. 2. Once spren make a bond with a human (a Nahel bond), its existence becomes exclusively linked to that of the bond. The spren becomes attuned to the thoughts of that one person, and so it dies when that person stops thinking (i.e. dies). This is disproven because Syl remembers being cognitive in the past, and so spren can cycle between people. 3. Spren are splinters, like small-scale shards. The same way shards are driven by ideals (or forces with a focus), splinters are driven by very small-scale (specific) forces. Syl is powered by any ideal that is honorable, Wyndle is powered by the force of growth, the Cryptics are powered by intrigue (lies, secrets, whatever), etc. This would mean that when honor died (not Honor, but honor) among men, those spren died, or at least a great majority of them. I'm sure some men still had shreds of honor. Further, spren that are powered by specific forces (e.g. creation, wind, rot, anger) are attracted to areas where that force is present, much like Seons were attracted to Elantris during the Reod. I would go further to say that individual spren are uniquely attracted to certain facets of a force (with overlap), which would explain how it was debatable if some spren were actually Honorspren (who's to say if a specific way of thinking is honorable… Amaram, anybody?) - Spren are ranked in hierarchies based on how much free energy of each type is available in the cognitive realm. For example, Honorspren used to rank high, and Cryptics now do because of all the intrigue in the thoughts of men. This does not make the Cryptics more 'powerful', but it does make them more cognizant. - Finally, spren are more interested than ever in preserving humankind, not because the Rosharans' thought are particularly useful at the present, but because if Odium wins, thought ends. Humans die, and the spren lose all cognition that they once had. They will be doomed to float like unpowered Seons for the rest of time. This is all built mostly on air, but it seems to make sense to me. Anywhere I should update, any information I'm missing? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macen Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 (edited) if Shallans gift "memories" was from her spren, this would be very odd. it would mean she was bounded to a spren for a long time, with no communication with the spren at all. I'm still not sure what they are from, but I thought I would post this for you in reference: “What is the first thing you do remember?” Shallan asked. “Where were you first?” “First,” Pattern said. “With you.” “On the ship?” Shallan said, writing. “No. Green. Food. Food not eaten.” “Plants?” Shallan asked. “Yes. Many plants.” He vibrated, and she thought she could hear in that vibration the blowing of wind through branches. Shallan breathed in. She could almost see it. The deck in front of her changing to a dirt path, her box becoming a stone bench. Faintly. Not really there, but almost. Her father’s gardens. Pattern on the ground, drawn in the dust… Edited January 21, 2014 by Macen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts