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Theory: Mistings CAN use every single Allomantic ability.


Cracknut

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So this is my first theory topic here. I'm not good at explaining stuff and my theorycrafting skills are newbie level but I'll try.

These are facts everyone knows:
Allomancy in SDNA lets Scadrian snap
Snapping lets Allomancer burn metal/s
Metal grants Allomancer access to Preservation's investiture
Preservation's investiture allows Allomancer to use different abilities depending on burned metal.
 
Accessed investiture is same for every metal/ability/allomancer right? It all comes from Preservation/Adonalsium's shard. Then why can't Mistborn(who can use every single allomantic ability) burn metal A to use ability B? Investiture Allomancer gets by burning metal A is different from investiture he gets by burning metal B. There's only one reason why investiture accessed by metal A could be different from investiture accessed by metal B: Metal acts as a filter. After Allomancer burns metal A he's not getting pure/full investiture, he gets only part of it that can be used only in that particular way. At this point it's possible to say that Mistings can use only one allomantical ability because they can't fuel other ones. If Misting A could get Investiture B he could use Ability B. Now that we know this(thanks to Demandred):

2. Could Nightblood be powered by Stormlight?
A: Yes. It would take some juryrigging, but all of the magic systems are compatible. It is possible to fuel allomancy with breath (that's the example Brandon gave), or any of the other magics with other forms of investiture. Difficult, but possible.

We can say that Allomancer could get investiture without burning metals. Investiture that didn't filter through metals, investiture that can fuel any Allomantic ability. I believe using Stormlight or Breath(if allomancer could somehow use them to fuel his abilities) would let Misting use all of 16+ abilities.


Demoux gonna pull this off in SA :P

Edited by 213
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I always thought of it like the sDNA you had limited how you were able to use investiture yourself. I believe Thug can only receive the benefits of burning pewter because that's what his spiritweb can use. I think WoB is that anyone can receive breath, but only someone from Nalthis can awaken. I think so anyway. Is this correct?

 

Edit: Congrats on your first theory by the way!

Edited by Bean
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I understand your logic, it's a reasonable theory but personally I really don't think this is the case. Like Bean said I think that their sDNA limits how they can utilize the investiture as much as it limits what metal they can burn. So I think that regardless of how they gained the investiture their sDNA would constrain how they were able to utilize it.

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Yeah, that's the way I thought, but there are no proofs either way. Although it would've been a lot more clever way of doing it imo. You can't because you can't sounds too shallow for me :D

There is no absolute evidence either way no. But it is really the same as why a non-allomancer can't use allomancy at all, they simply do not have the right sDNA for it. So if that isn't reason enough for why a misting cannot utilize the other allomantic powers then why would it be enough for normal people not being able to use allomancy? An extreme example but I think it illustrates the point.

 

Basically it comes down to that a magic (or otherwise) system must have limits and constraints or it gets kind of boring. From a not in-world perspective I do not think that it would work all that well for the upcoming books and so doubt that Brandon would choose to work it that way.

 

It is, of course, possible that I am wrong.

Edited by lord Claincy Ffnord
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There is no absolute evidence either way no. But it is really the same as why a non-allomancer can't use allomancy at all, they simply do not have the right sDNA for it. So if that isn't reason enough for why a misting cannot utilize the other allomantic powers then why would it be enough for normal people not being able to use allomancy? An extreme example but I think it illustrates the point.

 

Basically it comes down to that a magic (or otherwise) system must have limits and constraints or it gets kind of boring. From a not in-world perspective I do not think that it would work all that well for the upcoming books and so doubt that Brandon would choose to work it that way.

 

It is, of course, possible that I am wrong.

It would only work on several sharworlds and it wouldn't be as imbalanced as you think. First off using allomancy without burning metals would've been very difficult as BS stated. + Investiture currencies would make it work without overpowering one or another magic system.

Edited by 213
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I wasn't saying it was overpowered at all. More unintuitive. It feels to me kind of like taking an already complicated thing that we really have precious little idea how works, fueling allomancy with investiture from another world, then there is the related but also difficult using allomancy without metals. Then on top of that already complicated task you want to get someone who normally cannot burn other metals to be able to burn them.

 

If it is possible to do this then, by my understanding of sDNA, I think it would be very likely that whether they were a misting or not would be irrelevant so long as they were from Scadrial as I do not think having the sDNA to burn pewter would make it any easier to use allomantic steel in this fashion.

 

Basically we know barely anything about sDNA beyond that it exists and is required for allomancy and I think that sDNA is much more important than you do. Until we get more from Brandon there is little we can do to tell who is closer to the truth here.

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From the Alloy of Law Ars Arcanum:

 

 

Allomancy is the most common of the three. It is end-positive, according to my terminology, meaning that the practitioner draws in power from an external source. The body then filters it into various forms. (The actual outlet of the power is not chosen by the practitioner, but instead is hardwritten into their Spiritweb.) The key to drawing this power comes in the form of various types of metals, with specific compositions being required. Though the metal is consumed in the process, the power itself doesn’t actually come from the metal. The metal is a catalyst, you might say, that begins an Investiture and keeps it running.

In truth, this isn’t much different from the form-based Investitures one finds on Sel, where specific shape is the key—here, however, the interactions are more limited.

 

I would argue that burning any specific metal gets you the same kind of Investiture, and then it's filtered through your body with your sDNA playing a part into one specific outlet, like Pushing on metal.

 

The metal type acts like the various Aons of Elantris. I'm not sure how this plays with the body filtering the power, though, because it seems like the metal should filter the power.

 

I don't think this theory is right based on this, though it is interesting.

Edited by Moogle
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From the Alloy of Law Ars Arcanum:

 

 

I would argue that burning any specific metal gets you the same kind of Investiture, and then it's filtered through your body with your sDNA playing a part into one specific outlet, like Pushing on metal. I don't think this theory is right based on this, though it is interesting.

Looks like that :(

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I don't think so — as you have said, a Mistborn can't burn metal A to det ability B, so burning different metals somehow gets you different kinds of investiture.

 

And, after all, remember that Ars Arcanum isn't equal to Word of Brandon. :)

Yeah, but its less likely now... Although I started to doubt this theory because I don't know which ones better:

Demoux overpowering whole Roshar by using Atium or him being able to use every Allomantic ability :D

Seriously though, I think this would've been really nice twist to Allomancy, which imo is weakest so far. Some of those abilities are smart and can be devastating if used correctly but there's only so much you can do with them, Mistborns on other hand can do a lot more by combining those abilities. Not to mention that for most of those abilities it's a must to be supplemented with another one(tin/pewter, steel/iron, etc...) This way it would stay under control on Scadrial but would be able to compete with other Magic Systems in Cosmere.

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213 are you saying you think allomancy is weak compared to other magic systems in the cosmere or just weak compared to feruchemy and hemalurgy?

 

A misting may be weaker compared to a radiant in plate, but I always thought there could be way more mistings than there seemed to be radiants. Additionally for a thug to fuel back up all he needs is a relatively common alloy. A radiant needs to wait around a week for a storm to blow through.

 

It also seems that allomancy (really all the metalic arts) are by far the most portable magic system in the cosmere.

 

I don't think allomancy is under powered by any means. unless you are a duralamin misting. Then it just stinks to be you.

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Ffnord has the just of it correct folks. If I just clarify?

 

All Scadrians have Investiture.

 

All Allowmancers have a handwritten SWeb that allows them access to Investiture through  specific foci.

 

Allowmancers use foci (metal) to access specific forms of Investiture.

 

Thus an Allowmancer on Roshar needs metals, not Stormlight, to burn.

 

The bare exception being Shardic intervention.

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You need very little metal, however - it's not too difficult to be a tin savant even in a city filled with rampant civil unsettlement. An allomancer with a pound of steel could go for a year, probably. We haven't even gotten started on the metamagical implications of Aluminum, Bronze, Copper, Chromium, Nicrosil, or Lerasium's spiritweb reshuffling, or even Atium's dodging/auto-MacGyvering.

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Most likely you can't have army of Mistings worldhopping and even if you could Allomancy(as in misting) is still the weakest.

 

Ffnord has the just of it correct folks. If I just clarify?

 

All Scadrians have Investiture.

 

All Allowmancers have a handwritten SWeb that allows them access to Investiture through  specific foci.

 

Allowmancers use foci (metal) to access specific forms of Investiture.

 

Thus an Allowmancer on Roshar needs metals, not Stormlight, to burn.

 

The bare exception being Shardic intervention.


2. Could Nightblood be powered by Stormlight?
A: Yes. It would take some juryrigging, but all of the magic systems are compatible. It is possible to fuel allomancy with breath (that's the example Brandon gave), or any of the other magics with other forms of investiture. Difficult, but possible.
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Most likely you can't have army of Mistings worldhopping and even if you could Allomancy(as in misting) is still the weakest.

 

 

You're missing what is probably the most useful part of Allomancy: you don't have to be on Scadrial to use it. How well do you think Kaladin would do on Scadrial, with no Stormlight? Or how well Raoden would do on Nalthis, so far from Elantris? Vasher might fare better but I wonder if organic material from other Shardworlds might not give the Breath back as readily as Nalthis materials would.

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Allomancy is efficient, brutal, and fast. No other magic system yet gives its users the ability to use a bag of coins as an effective shotgun. A good Mistborn could drain Szeth of Stormlight with a constant barrage of coins/nails, forcing him to operate a Reverse Lashing full-time. From the AoL era, you could just toss a stick of dynamite with a metal band on it at him and Push it to reduce the effect of his lashings. If he's wearing metal, a duralumin Push could probably drill a hole in him, at which point he'd be weak and drained of stormlight and you could flare Pewter and go for some dueling cane beatdowns.

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Allomancy is efficient, brutal, and fast. No other magic system yet gives its users the ability to use a bag of coins as an effective shotgun. A good Mistborn could drain Szeth of Stormlight with a constant barrage of coins/nails, forcing him to operate a Reverse Lashing full-time. From the AoL era, you could just toss a stick of dynamite with a metal band on it at him and Push it to reduce the effect of his lashings. If he's wearing metal, a duralumin Push could probably drill a hole in him, at which point he'd be weak and drained of stormlight and you could flare Pewter and go for some dueling cane beatdowns.

 

I like the idea of a Mistborn vs Szeth. I don't think it'd work out quite like you're saying, though - Szeth has shown he's just as capable of shooting things. He sent some knives flying towards a king, and Lashings can be used like Steel Allomancy turned Feruchemy - he can shove all of his Stormlight into a pebble and have it accelerate at 1000g, something a Mistborn can't react against and can't counter because it's not metal. If they had atium, though... I think there's a lot of potential with crossovers in the Cosmere. Do want.

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You're missing what is probably the most useful part of Allomancy: you don't have to be on Scadrial to use it. How well do you think Kaladin would do on Scadrial, with no Stormlight? Or how well Raoden would do on Nalthis, so far from Elantris? Vasher might fare better but I wonder if organic material from other Shardworlds might not give the Breath back as readily as Nalthis materials would.

 

Are you assuming that a Lurcher can burn Nalthian iron? Cuz that's a big point of contention that keeps getting RAFO'd.

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You're missing what is probably the most useful part of Allomancy: you don't have to be on Scadrial to use it. How well do you think Kaladin would do on Scadrial, with no Stormlight? Or how well Raoden would do on Nalthis, so far from Elantris? Vasher might fare better but I wonder if organic material from other Shardworlds might not give the Breath back as readily as Nalthis materials would.

I don't remember where I've read it but I believe Brandon stated that only Scadrian metal can be burned by Allomancers. Kaladin would have to take with him spheres and Allomancers would have to drag metals with them. Its fair enough imo. On the other hand Kaladin 'could' fuel his abilities without using Stormlight same way Allomancers could fuel their abilities without metals. The way investiture works on Scadrial is a bit more complicated than on Roshar but what about mists? Is it impossible to assume that non-allomancers could draw investiture straight from Mists?

And yes, Atium is overpowered, as is Nightblood and Shardblades/plates.

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And yes, Atium is overpowered, as is Nightblood and Shardblades/plates.

 

I never really got that impression. Atium's great, sure, but ultimately someone burning atium can still do nothing to a Feruchemist.

 

... Really, no one can do much to a Feruchemist unless they're flying around in the sky 24/7. You touch the ground, you're dead. Feruchemists overpowered, nerf plz. And, of course, they don't run out of metals, so their powers work everywhere, even if they have to have Scadrian metal. If there's atium available, they can also double their lifespan, though obviously Awakening is better for that. Feruchemists get it all. The only reason not to be one is so you can be an Awakener and be fabulous (and immortal).

 

Edit: Shardplate might provide something resembling protection against a Feruchemist, but there's always the vulnerable eyes. Unless you plan on walking around blind, the Feruchemist can move fast enough to stab you in the eyes before you can move your arms into position. Awakeners can have protective clothing, but it still won't move fast enough to deal with a Feruchemist. Feruchemists are the kings of one on one.

Edited by Moogle
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 Is it impossible to assume that non-allomancers could draw investiture straight from Mists?

 

The most recent WoB I've seen, from last month, was a RAFO on the "non-Scadrian metal" question, but one that suggested an eventual answer.

 

Kaladin could, in theory, draw from the mists... but straight from the mists? No. The WoB says "with jury-rigging." It would be a complicated system, possibly one requiring direct Shardic involvement. If not, it'd prolly be some very involved (read: sessile and easy exploited as a weakness) system that would have to be designed by someone who knows a lot more about allomancy than anyone in AoL does, a lot more about surgebinding than anyone in TWoK does, and a bunch about cosmere-physics and the interactions between systems of investiture.

 

In theory, with some jury-rigging, you could run a remote-controlled car off the heat produced by a fire burning in your fireplace. It would be difficult, it would not work as well as the native power source, and it would require a lot of time, energy, and expertise to set up.

 

 

I never really got that impression. Atium's great, sure, but ultimately someone burning atium can still do nothing to a Feruchemist.

 

... Really, no one can do much to a Feruchemist unless they're flying around in the sky 24/7. You touch the ground, you're dead. Feruchemists overpowered, nerf plz.

 

Their "nerf" is a coinshot and a nicroburst, or simply the second guy. Send ten street thugs after them, one at a time, over the course of a week, and either he'll run out of storage, or one will catch him when he's storing zinc and kill him before he thinks to drop it.

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Their "nerf" is a coinshot and a nicroburst, or simply the second guy. Send ten street thugs after them, one at a time, over the course of a week, and either he'll run out of storage, or one will catch him when he's storing zinc and kill him before he thinks to drop it.

 

If your idea of a nerf is forcing the Feruchemist to face ten people over a week rather than one, and catching him off guard, then we might have differing ideas on how game balance should work. :P

 

But yes, I get your point. Feruchemists have weaknesses that can be exploited. Doesn't change how ridiculous the system is and how much Sazed wasted his potential. And for what it's worth, Brandon did nerf them - Ferrings.

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Um... perhaps you and I have a different definition of a "game"? Because I thought that a game was an interactive experience where you make decisions that affect the outcome and there is an ultimate goal you strive towards, whereas the books are stories, which were written beforehand and have a foregone conclusion.

 

I could, perhaps, be mistaken? Is reading Mistborn a game and I've been playing it wrong?

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