Jump to content

Theory: Investiture only exists in the Spiritual Realm


Elementalist

Recommended Posts

Man, I've been churning out theories like [insert bad metaphor here] today.

So, my idea is based upon these principles:

1. Ruin and Preservation each Invested Scadrial

2. Aside from humans, everything on Scadrial was Invested equally

I'll start off by stating an idea that I've expressed in other threads but haven't put into a theory yet.

Scadrian metal, if put under a microscope, would have the exact same atomic structure as any other Iron in the Cosmere. It would be identical to any other metal in the Physical realm.

Scadrian iron thinks of itself in the same way as well. It would be identical to any other metal in the Cognitive realm.

"But wait," you ask. "That metal is Invested in a way no other metal in the Cosmere is. Surely the difference shows in some way!"

Indeed it does. The only logical outcome at this point is that THE INVESTITURE OF THE METAL EXISTS IN THE SPIRITUAL REALM. Since it is silly for this to be only limited to Investiture on Scadrial, this is a universal law for all Investiture.

Of all my theories, this one probably has the most logical evidence behind it. (Which is kind of sad, when you think about it.)

Any thoughts?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This theory comes with the notable exception of "pure" Investiture, such as the mists or Stormlight, which clearly have Physical aspects.

The reason Investiture can't exist in the cognitive realm is as follows:

Let's say you attempted to soulcast an invested object- such as a piece of Scadrian metal. Since Soulcasting (as far as I know) operates by bribing an object's cognitive aspect to change, then if Investiture existed in the Cognitive realm, you would also be able to increase or decrease the amount of Investiture in the object using the Soulcasting. This makes no sense at all according to everything we've seen about Investiture so far. If it could be affected by something as simple as a Soulcasting, suddenly you have infinite Investiture in hand, and I doubt Mr. Sanderson would right something so powerful into a magic system.

EDIT: Of course, it also might occur that you would transform one kind of Investiture into another with Soulcasting. I can't disprove that, but my gut feeling tells me no. So far, the Cognitive realm has dealt with only how matter thinks of itself, rather than how the energy contained in that matter does. A hot object would likely be just as hot after it was Soulcast into another object, and you couldn't turn that heat into electrical charge.

Edited by Power
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that you are right. But listen to this:

 

A big part of the problem with some people's confusion is they think of the Cognitive, Physical, and Spiritual as "Three Realms". I.e., a 'magic world' where you can go to, a la Oz or a more primal Wizarding world. This is wrong.

The Three Realms are more like three ways of looking at an object, or variables assigned to describe the object. Think of it kind of as philosophical dimensions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that you are right. But listen to this:

 

A big part of the problem with some people's confusion is they think of the Cognitive, Physical, and Spiritual as "Three Realms". I.e., a 'magic world' where you can go to, a la Oz or a more primal Wizarding world. This is wrong.

The Three Realms are more like three ways of looking at an object, or variables assigned to describe the object. Think of it kind of as philosophical dimensions.

That is how I think of it, although it is possible to travel to the realms (as WoK proves).
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I disagree with a few of your underlying assertions. Why would Scadrian iron have a different cognitive aspect than Nalthian iron? Also, even if true, all you've proven is that one specific instance of Investiture manifests in the spirtual, rather than cognitive or physical, realms. In your own post, you point out that Mist is Investiture that manifests physically. All you're really proving is that different forms of Investiture can manifest different ways.

 

You're saying that it's impossible because you shouldn't be able to change how much Investiture is in something. But soulcasting isn't free; it costs you stormlight, aka Investiture. Presumably, then, if you tried to make something Invested, it would simply "cost" more stormlight in order to do so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I disagree with a few of your underlying assertions. Why would Scadrian iron have a different cognitive aspect than Nalthian iron? Also, even if true, all you've proven is that one specific instance of Investiture manifests in the spirtual, rather than cognitive or physical, realms. In your own post, you point out that Mist is Investiture that manifests physically. All you're really proving is that different forms of Investiture can manifest different ways.

 

You're saying that it's impossible because you shouldn't be able to change how much Investiture is in something. But soulcasting isn't free; it costs you stormlight, aka Investiture. Presumably, then, if you tried to make something Invested, it would simply "cost" more stormlight in order to do so.

 

I thought we had WoB that you can't use non-Scadrian metals for the Metallic Arts. Might be wrong about that, though, but that is certainly some difference if true.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I disagree with a few of your underlying assertions. Why would Scadrian iron have a different cognitive aspect than Nalthian iron?

Scadrian iron wouldn't have a different cognitive aspect than Nalthian; that's one of my points. Despite the fact that everything on Scadrial is invested according to HoA, it thinks of itself the same. The investiture does not change its cognitive aspect.

all you've proven is that one specific instance of Investiture manifests in the spirtual, rather than cognitive or physical, realms. In your own post, you point out that Mist is Investiture that manifests physically. All you're really proving is that different forms of Investiture can manifest different ways.

I disagree. Why should Preservation's investiture be any different from Investiture from another shard? They all came from the same place. However, you're right about the mists. Perhaps a better way to phrase my theory is that Investiture is a Spiritual aspect of an object, and gains its own Physical form when it manifests in Pure form.

You're saying that it's impossible because you shouldn't be able to change how much Investiture is in something. But soulcasting isn't free; it costs you stormlight, aka Investiture. Presumably, then, if you tried to make something Invested, it would simply "cost" more stormlight in order to do so.

You forget, Soulcasting is limited to the Ten Essences. Investiture isn't one of those essences. Edited by Power
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I thought we had WoB that you can't use non-Scadrian metals for the Metallic Arts. Might be wrong about that, though, but that is certainly some difference if true.

That's part of my point. There is WoB that only Scadrian metals could be used for Hemalurgy, at least. The only difference that we know of between Scadrian metals and other metals is that Scadrian metals are Invested by Ruin and Preservation. I'm trying to prove that this difference is not a Physical or Cognitive one, but a Spiritual one. Proving that would by extension prove that Investiture in objects is a Spiritual aspect of said objects.

Edited by Power
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is WoB that only Scadrian metals could be used for Hemalurgy, at least.

Could you cite that, please? I don't remember clear confirmation.

 

Scadrian iron wouldn't have a different cognitive aspect than Nalthian; that's one of my points. Despite the fact that everything on Scadrial is invested according to HoA, it thinks of itself the same. The investiture does not change its cognitive aspect.

Um. They have different aspects. That is, the objects have different memories of their origins, and memories are part of the Cognitive aspect. So Scadrian iron thinks "I am a piece of Iron from Scadrial. I remember the touch of Ruin and Preservation. ", while Rosharian iron thinks "I am a piece of Rosharian Iron. I remember being a roast chicken, not so long ago." Also, applied Investiture can change cognitive aspect.

 

You forget, Soulcasting is limited to the Ten Essences. Investiture isn't one of those essences.

First, Soulcasting is limited to a set of combinations and variations of Ten Essences (you can soulcast into water, which is not one of the Essences). Second, you don't need to Soulcast Investiture if you are adding it in raw form to begin with (though it would still be Rosharian in origin, you might be able to create an Invested object by soulcasting. Might).

 

 

Proving that would by extension prove that Investiture in objects is a Spiritual aspect of said objects.

If you are implying that Investiture is the whole of Spiritual aspect, I disagree. For one thing, objects (like rocks) existed before  Shards arrived on the corresponding planets. Also, gravity is Spiritual interaction in Cosmere, so it would need Spiritual aspect to work, so Spiritual aspects existed before Shards did (though they might be Adonalsium Investiture, I guess, if he made the whole of Cosmere to  begin with)

 

Edit:

 

A hot object would likely be just as hot after it was Soulcast into another object, and you couldn't turn that heat into electrical charge.

You could Soulcast object into fire and light. Unless that fire is the same temperature as human body, I would argue that it just became hotter.

Also, could you please not doublepost so much?

Edited by Satsuoni
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Man, I've been churning out theories like [insert bad metaphor here] today.

So, my idea is based upon these principles:

1. Ruin and Preservation each Invested Scadrial

2. Aside from humans, everything on Scadrial was Invested equally

I'll start off by stating an idea that I've expressed in other threads but haven't put into a theory yet.

Scadrian metal, if put under a microscope, would have the exact same atomic structure as any other Iron in the Cosmere. It would be identical to any other metal in the Physical realm.

Scadrian iron thinks of itself in the same way as well. It would be identical to any other metal in the Cognitive realm.

"But wait," you ask. "That metal is Invested in a way no other metal in the Cosmere is. Surely the difference shows in some way!"

Indeed it does. The only logical outcome at this point is that THE INVESTITURE OF THE METAL EXISTS IN THE SPIRITUAL REALM. Since it is silly for this to be only limited to Investiture on Scadrial, this is a universal law for all Investiture.

WoB is that Scadrian Iron is atomically the same as Nalthian Iron. (Correct me of I'm wrong Kurk/Hoser/Shardlet :ph34r: ) The difference is that Iron on Scadrial is wrapped up in Spiritual stuff. The Iron views itself as an access to Investiture. Thus it's Cognitive Aspect by definition would have to view itself differently than Nalthian Iron.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

WoB is that Scadrian Iron is atomically the same as Nalthian Iron. (Correct me of I'm wrong Kurk/Hoser/Shardlet :ph34r: ) The difference is that Iron on Scadrial is wrapped up in Spiritual stuff. The Iron views itself as an access to Investiture. Thus it's Cognitive Aspect by definition would have to view itself differently than Nalthian Iron.

Iron might view itself as access to investiture (Preservation's investiture) but that's not the same as viewing itself as having investiture. I don't personally believe that Scadrian iron even views itself as being access to investiture; I think that it is access due to the small amount of Preservation's investiture it already has.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Could you cite that, please? I don't remember clear confirmation.

 

Found this on theorland:

Hemalurgy crosses magic systems. You could steal things from people on other worlds, if you knew the right places for the spikes.

It's the closes I can get to what I'm trying to say.

Um. They have different aspects. That is, the objects have different memories of their origins, and memories are part of the Cognitive aspect. So Scadrian iron thinks "I am a piece of Iron from Scadrial. I remember the touch of Ruin and Preservation. ", while Rosharian iron thinks "I am a piece of Rosharian Iron. I remember being a roast chicken, not so long ago." Also, applied Investiture can change cognitive aspect.

 Perhaps they're not identical in that realm, then. Good reasoning. However, I don't think that a different origin memory would result in Rosharian metals being unburnable. I hold to the theory that it is a spiritual aspect unique to Scadrian metals, and that that aspect is Preservation's Investiture.

First, Soulcasting is limited to a set of combinations and variations of Ten Essences (you can soulcast into water, which is not one of the Essences). Second, you don't need to Soulcast Investiture if you are adding it in raw form to begin with (though it would still be Rosharian in origin, you might be able to create an Invested object by soulcasting. Might).

Although you are in the cognitive realm when you add the Investiture, that doesn't mean that investiture is a cognitive aspect. Also, investiture doesn't fall under any of the 10 soulcasting categories in my opinion.

 

If you are implying that Investiture is the whole of Spiritual aspect, I disagree. For one thing, objects (like rocks) existed before  Shards arrived on the corresponding planets. Also, gravity is Spiritual interaction in Cosmere, so it would need Spiritual aspect to work, so Spiritual aspects existed before Shards did (though they might be Adonalsium Investiture, I guess, if he made the whole of Cosmere to  begin with)

I'm not saying it is the spiritual aspect, I'm saying it is a spiritual aspect.

 

Edit:

You could Soulcast object into fire and light. Unless that fire is the same temperature as human body, I would argue that it just became hotter.

Also, could you please not doublepost so much?

I hadn't considered the fire and light. Perhaps our soulcasting arguments should go on another thread, "The Nature of Soulcasting" or something. Also, what does it mean to doublepost?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  I hadn't considered the fire and light. Perhaps our soulcasting arguments should go on another thread, "The Nature of Soulcasting" or something. Also, what does it mean to doublepost?

To doublepost means to post in the same thread twice in a row, without somebody else posting in-between, like your first two posts. It is generally considered to be in bad taste on these forums, unless you are reanimating an old thread with some fresh info.

Hm. I would agree that Investiture, normally, tends to exist in Spiritual Realm. Not always, though. Consider Atium/Lerasium, for example. As per WoB, they are mundane(?) metals(?) covered in Spiritual wrap, and the effect is easily detected on Physical realm in their properties. (Well, atium's). Also, I am still not convinced that metals from off-world can not be burned - IIRC, we only got RAFO on that particular question.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hm. I would agree that Investiture, normally, tends to exist in Spiritual Realm. Not always, though. Consider Atium/Lerasium, for example. As per WoB, they are mundane(?) metals(?) covered in Spiritual wrap, and the effect is easily detected on Physical realm in their properties. (Well, atium's). Also, I am still not convinced that metals from off-world can not be burned - IIRC, we only got RAFO on that particular question.

The thing about Atium/Lerasium is that rather than being Invested, like the rest of the metals, the God Metals are Investiture. They are the solid form of Preservation's Investiture. I've changed my mind from my original theory; I don't believe all Investiture exists in the Spiritual realm. Instead, I now believe that Investiture is a spiritual aspect of a mundane object. However, pure Shardic investiture like the mists or the God Metals makes its own object around it, and therefore is governed by separate principles than an ordinary Invested object. Edited by Power
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Iron might view itself as access to investiture (Preservation's investiture) but that's not the same as viewing itself as having investiture.

That's what I'm trying to say.

 

 I don't personally believe that Scadrian iron even views itself as being access to investiture; I think that it is access due to the small amount of Preservation's investiture it already has.

Why would it not view itself as access? That is what  it is.  Like its physical properties of being hard and brittle because that is what it is.

If we were to refute this idea, then we would be able to state that fire doesn't think its hot, and Stormlight doesn't view itself as fuel for Surges.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's what I'm trying to say.

 

Why would it not view itself as access? That is what  it is.  Like its physical properties of being hard and brittle because that is what it is.

If we were to refute this idea, then we would be able to state that fire doesn't think its hot, and Stormlight doesn't view itself as fuel for Surges.

Whether or not it is cognitively different is not what I'm trying to prove; I apologize for going off topic. What I'm saying is that the Investiture Invested in the iron is not a Cognitive aspect of that Iron; it is a Spiritual aspect.

However, on the subject of how an object views itself, I always thought that that was only related to the "boundaries" of the object- like if you were to Soulcast a table from wood to jade, it wouldn't Soulcast the wooden floor under the table as well. I didn't think it was related to the energy contained in the object. Maybe that's just me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Scadrian iron wouldn't have a different cognitive aspect than Nalthian; that's one of my points. Despite the fact that everything on Scadrial is invested according to HoA, it thinks of itself the same. The investiture does not change its cognitive aspect.

I disagree. Why should Preservation's investiture be any different from Investiture from another shard? They all came from the same place. However, you're right about the mists. Perhaps a better way to phrase my theory is that Investiture is a Spiritual aspect of an object, and gains its own Physical form when it manifests in Pure form.

You forget, Soulcasting is limited to the Ten Essences. Investiture isn't one of those essences.

 

That was a typo on my part, I meant to say, "Why wouldn't they have different cognitive aspects?". My apologies. As has been pointed out, they've have different cognitive aspects almost for certain. How can we know that this doesn't include Investiture? Why is it impossible that there be some Investiture in the cognitive aspect of a piece of copper that gives it the capacity to store memories feruchemically and become a coppermind?

 

For your second paragraph... you're still jumping a premise ahead. You haven't proven, and no one has conceded, that Preservation's Investiture is solely spiritual; in fact, you yourself pointed out that it exists physically as lerasium, the liquid in the Well, and the mists. So I agree, Preservation's Investiture would not be any different from a different Shard's, and they would all exist in whichever realm they felt like.

 

Valid point on soulcasting, though keep in mind in the first Mistborn book we were told rules of allomancy that proved false. Just because something is written in the ars arcanum doesn't mean it is correct; perhaps the way "all non-oil liquids" lets you make water, maybe no one has figured out (or they've forgotten) how to Soulcast forms of energy other than fire; perhaps lightning, or sound, or even Stormlight is something you could, in theory, soulcast with a ruby. Once we've seen people soulcast a lot more, I think we the readers will have an easier time distinguishing the "rules" from what's actually possible.

 

I thought we had WoB that you can't use non-Scadrian metals for the Metallic Arts. Might be wrong about that, though, but that is certainly some difference if true.

 

WHERE IS THIS QUOTE?!?! This is something I want very much to be true. If you can find this WoB I will kiss you on the mouth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That was a typo on my part, I meant to say, "Why wouldn't they have different cognitive aspects?". My apologies. As has been pointed out, they've have different cognitive aspects almost for certain. How can we know that this doesn't include Investiture? Why is it impossible that there be some Investiture in the cognitive aspect of a piece of copper that gives it the capacity to store memories feruchemically and become a coppermind?

 

For your second paragraph... you're still jumping a premise ahead. You haven't proven, and no one has conceded, that Preservation's Investiture is solely spiritual; in fact, you yourself pointed out that it exists physically as lerasium, the liquid in the Well, and the mists. So I agree, Preservation's Investiture would not be any different from a different Shard's, and they would all exist in whichever realm they felt like.

I suppose you're right, we don't have enough information to make a final decision. Someone should try to ask Mr. Sanderson about this; it would certainly shed more light on the mysterious Spiritual realm. Maybe someone should ask, "Does an Invested object think of itself as being Invested?"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 Maybe someone should ask, "Does an Invested object think of itself as being Invested?"

 

Your question seems to be more specifically, "Is Investiture purely spiritual, or can it exist/be native to the physical and/or cognitive realms"?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your question seems to be more specifically, "Is Investiture purely spiritual, or can it exist/be native to the physical and/or cognitive realms"?

I fear a RAFO on a question that direct.

EDIT: Sevi found this quote, which is interesting:

DOUGLAS

What benefit does an aluminum savant get? Yes, I know this would normally never happen because aluminum burns itself up. Suppose a mad scientist with a willing Mistborn test subject shoved a feeding tube down the Mistborn's throat to pump in a continuous stream of aluminum, replenishing it steadily so there's always a new unburned supply. Add another tube to pump out excess water if necessary. What would he discover? Alternatively, what would Sazed with his Shard-granted knowledge know?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Ha, that IS a little silly of a method. However, on the extreme end of aluminum, I have in the notes the possibility of cleansing the spirit of unwanted effects of other investitures. You'd get really good at this, and maybe even be able to cleanse the body of other impurities.

This says, cleansing the spirit of unwanted effects of other investitures.. It directly connects the Investiture invested in a human with the spirit, which likely means the Spiritual aspect of the burner. This doesn't prove my point, of course, but I thought I should share it anyways. It definitely has some relevance in regards to this theory. Edited by Power
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some quotes regarding the question whether non-Scadrian metals can be used by Scadrians too, though nothing is really explicit.

 

Q: The poeple on the forums wanted me to ask you if you could use metal from other planets for hemalurgic spikes..

B: Hmm… wow. They are being very clever. I’m going to RAFO that one. But that is a good question, it is one I hoped they would be thinking about. Its just a RAFO because I want to think about it longer.

Isaac?: What are we thinking about longer?

B: Whether metal from other planets can be used for hemalurgic spikes.

from December 2013

Chaos (17 October 2008)

Would the Three Metallic Arts operate in other worlds, or are they direct results of Ruin and Preservation and thus only operate in Scadrial?

Brandon Sanderson (20 October 2008)

To use Feruchemy or Allomancy in almost every case, one must have the right spiritual and genetic codes, imprinted upon people during the creation of Scadrial by Ati and Leras. To use Hemalurgy, one must first have someone with these right spiritual and genetic codes, then take the power from them. Other people on other worlds are not going to simply discover the Three Metallic Arts by accident.

(emphasizes mine)

from October 2008

This older quote seems to imply that Feruchemy or Allomancy can be used on other worlds and this let's me think that they, too, work with non-Scadrian metals.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some quotes regarding the question whether non-Scadrian metals can be used by Scadrians too, though nothing is really explicit. from December 2013(emphasizes mine)from October 2008This older quote seems to imply that Feruchemy or Allomancy can be used on other worlds and this let's me think that they, too, work with non-Scadrian metals.

Those quotes wreak havoc on the basis for my theory. Nicely done?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I fear a RAFO on a question that direct.

EDIT: Sevi found this quote, which is interesting:

This says, cleansing the spirit of unwanted effects of other investitures.. It directly connects the Investiture invested in a human with the spirit, which likely means the Spiritual aspect of the burner. This doesn't prove my point, of course, but I thought I should share it anyways. It definitely has some relevance in regards to this theory.

 

Well, it provides one link. It says that the spirit is the only thing aluminum can cleanse of Investiture, not that the Spirit is the only thing which can be Invested.

 

You've done a good job finding evidence for this theory, and I'm certainly considering it; in fact, it's something I've suspected for a long time, but not enough that I've ever bothered finding evidence. It's just that your evidence so far is mostly circumstantial. I think you've got a strong case that raw Investiture is typically, perhaps even natively, Spiritual, but until we get something for-sure written in steel, I don't think you're gonna find a case stronger than that.

 

This older quote seems to imply that Feruchemy or Allomancy can be used on other worlds and this let's me think that they, too, work with non-Scadrian metals.

 

I disagree strongly... the older quote simply says, "Here's one obstacle in the way," it in no ways says "this is the only obstacle." And the second, much newer quote implies that he hasn't decided one way or the other, so even if there was an implication in the older one, the matter is definitely up in the air right now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You've done a good job finding evidence for this theory, and I'm certainly considering it;

Thanks!

EDIT:

Found a word of Brandon that may or may not have influence on this theory:

Investure is intended to be the building blocks of the cosmere so I would say for the most part it transcends the different realms. Probably more of the spiritual if anything but more accurately it transcends them

This is the last straw condemning my original theory, but I don't think it contradicts my second theory- that the Investiture of an Invested object is a part of the spiritual aspect of that object. Still, it's food for thought.

Edited by Power
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Chaos locked this topic
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...