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Can Siri and Susebron have children?


Sylvrin

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The whole issue of whether or not Returneds could bear children seemed a little confusing to me. 

 

Hoid's history stories would seem to indicate the Returneds can and do bear children.  Vo had children obviously, or there would be no royal line from which the 5 scholars and the royal family of Idris sprang.

 

Hoid's historical story also talked of the 5 God Kings that ruled after the Manywar.  One of those God Kings had a daughter then a year or so later a male "heir" came along after which the God King "died".

 

But in a scene where Blushweaver is attempting to seduce Lightsong we are told that the Returneds couldn't bear children and later we have this from Treledees:

 

“You cannot bear the God King a child,” he said. “Like all Returned, he is unable to sire

children. We have not yet learned how the First Returned managed to have a child all those

years ago. In fact. . . .”

“You don’t even think he did,” she said. “You think the Royal line is a fabrication.” Of

course the priests dispute the record of the royal line coming from the first Returned, she

thought. They wouldn’t want to give credibility to Idris’s claim to the throne.

He flushed. “It’s what people believe that matters. Regardless, we. . .have a child. . . .”

“Yes,” Siri said. “A Returned child you are going to make the next God King.”

 

Now we know the God Kings didn't really die, but basically passed on their breath to the chosen "heir" and then quietly lived out their lives elsewhere, as explained by Treledees before he gets killed.  But why did they need to choose an heir rather than letting the God Kings bear children of their own.  And if in fact they could bear children why did they tell them they couldn't?

 

Here is my theory on how perhaps the seemingly confusing and conflicting pieces of information may fit together:

 

 I think the key to this whole mystery lies in this one insight from Treledees “It’s what people believe that matters."  When it comes to Returned Gods, this statement holds even more true for them than for other people. 

 

If you convinced a Returned through priestly brainwashing  that he could not sire children perhaps that would then become a self-fulfilling prophecy.  All Returneds apparantly have a great deal of capacity to control their physical bodies through their own belief system and/or emotional state of mind.  The "gods" physical appearance was maintained by what they thought they ought to look like.  If that is the case and they were thoroughly convinced that they could not procreate, then perhaps that became reality simply because of their strongly held belief that it was true.  Maybe their own strongly held belief that they could not have children prevented it from happening in the same way their bodies were prevented from aging beyond what they believed to be appropriate for their self-image. 

 

The priests seem to have done this as a way to maintain control over the God Kings and as a way to release the God Kings from service after a period of time.   Also convincing the lesser gods that they could not have children would prevent any unwanted population boom within the pantheon.

 

So in conclusion I do beleive that the Royal God Couple will probably have a family of their own now that they are no longer so oppressed.

 

What do you all think on this topic?

Edited by Sylvrin
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Here's the bit I was thinking of.

It is possible for a Returned to have a child. Vo, the First Returned, did it. The God King isn�t special in that he can do it; any of the Returned could, but it requires some special knowledge that�I�m afraid�I�ll have to keep secret until the sequel. Suffice it to say that the priests know how it is done.

The problem is, they aren�t always able to get this to work. Sometimes, they have to do what Siri guessed�replace the God King with an infant Returned. Infant Returns happen very infrequently. It�s more rare than an adult Returning, so there is something sound to the Hallandren reasoning that you have to do something heroic in order to Return. (That�s not true, but it is more sound a doctrine than Siri thinks it is.)

The God King�s priests take an infant Returning as a sign that it�s time to change God Kings. At that point, they choose a wife for the God King and hope that she�ll be able to conceive the next God King. They�d much, much rather that the God King be the literal child of the previous God King. (Susebron wasn�t, however. And his mother was indeed his mother, a poor merchant�s wife from far northern Hallandren.)

Now, an infant has indeed Returned. The priests see this as a major vindication of their faith, as they made the wedding contract with Idris twenty years ago and now, just when the marriage was to happen, an infant Returned. The problem is, now they�ve got to push Siri to get pregnant, because they�re on a deadline. They don�t want to have to replace the God King with this infant; they�d rather use his own child. Hence the push for her to have a child.

But if she doesn�t, they�ll go with plan B. Note that there�s not, in fact, any danger to her either way, no matter what Bluefingers says. She and Susebron, following the change in power, would have been taken to one of the isles in the middle of the Inner Sea and kept in a lavish lifestyle as long as they lived.

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There's also this:

GRAENDAL
A question that's been on my mind for a while. If Returned can't have children, how are Siri and Vivenna descended from one?
BRANDON SANDERSON
Excellent question. One I have to RAFO. When I was writing Warbreaker, I was planning on two books. I seeded two questions to be answered in the next book. One was the origin of the royal family. The second was how Vasher was able to survive while hiding his divine Breath. I will answer these questions. Eventually. (It has to do with restoring Breath and life to the child while still in the womb.).
Source

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Hrm. Interesting other question. If a previous God King had an actual daughter, why didn't she have the Royal Locks or similar? Brandon seems to be saying that Vo was the first Returned, but not particularly special in his fathering abilities. 

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I can't help but feeling that something big is missing in the background with Siri, Susebron and the High Priests.

 

If they wanted Susebron to have a child, and if more is involved than, well, the usual, why didn't they say something?  I know they didn't trust her, but this was kind of important.

Obviously, we have no reason to believe that they don't believe in the Royal Line if they know that returned can have kids if they do it right, so that bit of speculation by Siri is wrong.  Something must be blocking them, though, if they didn't say anything.

 

So, yeah.  Questions about this remain thoroughly unanswered.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I can't help but feeling that something big is missing in the background with Siri, Susebron and the High Priests.

 

If they wanted Susebron to have a child, and if more is involved than, well, the usual, why didn't they say something?  I know they didn't trust her, but this was kind of important.

Obviously, we have no reason to believe that they don't believe in the Royal Line if they know that returned can have kids if they do it right, so that bit of speculation by Siri is wrong.  Something must be blocking them, though, if they didn't say anything.

 

So, yeah.  Questions about this remain thoroughly unanswered.

 

Actually this makes sense, because if Returned have had children before, they obviously don't have the Royal Locks. So why does Siri's family?

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  • 3 weeks later...

Is belief in the ability to change your hair in this case the difference?

 

Vasher does indicate in the epilogue that Vivenna could possibly learn to change her appearance beyond just the hair. So is it possible that there were children of other returned that had the ability but didn't know it.

 

The royal family being taught from birth that they had this ability would never question and so their belief fueled the locks.  

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Is belief in the ability to change your hair in this case the difference?

 

Vasher does indicate in the epilogue that Vivenna could possibly learn to change her appearance beyond just the hair. So is it possible that there were children of other returned that had the ability but didn't know it.

 

The royal family being taught from birth that they had this ability would never question and so their belief fueled the locks.  

 

 

I think it's more complex than that

Only Potential Heirs of Idris Have Royal Locks

This is true. It's not a matter of genetics, but lineage. That's a subtle distinction. Only the children of the person who ends up inheriting will have the Royal Locks. (Though there are a couple of notable exceptions to this, they won't show up in this book, as it will take another novel to explain why and how the Royal Locks really work. If I ever write a sequel, that should be in it.)

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So once their brother takes the throne of Idris Vivenna and Siri will loose their Royal Locks?

 

Edit: I am sorry. I misread that. Only the CHILDREN of the inheritor will have the Locks.

 

edit2: that is a really interesting quote. How/why could/would royal lineage have this effect?  

Edited by Khmauv
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It seems to have something to do with the cognitive realm. Everyone believes the locks are a sign of being in line for the throne, so anyone born outside the direct line of ascencion doesn't get them. Something like that, anyway.

Once born with them, you keep them even if you get pushed out of that direct line.

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  • 4 months later...

I think there are two points that may not have been considered here. the first being that vo's child may have been conceived shortly before he died rather than in the week he spent as a returned. if this is the case than I suspect whatever allowed was different about him, whatever allowed him to return when no one ever had before, is responsible for the changing color of the royal hair and the fact that the returned can alter their appearance is unrelated. secondly what other effects did lightsongs healing have on the godking? is he even a returned or is he fully alive now? even if he is still a returned might the healing have fixed whatever prevents the returned from having children?

Edited by kuronekosama
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