Theory: Kaladin triggered the next Desolation

[Dros]

Brandon's readings on SA2 made me start thinking about why Gavilar's intended actions that he related to the Parshendi would be so disasterous. And why did the Parshendi think his actions would open the door for the return of their "gods"?

First, who would their gods be and, if they are Parshendi gods, why would their return be bad?

So, first assumption/speculation, the Parshendi gods are Heralds. (Remember they have items with the images of Heralds on them) If the Heralds show up, so does a Desolation and that's bad, I think for obvious reasons.

Second, what does the release of a Herald signify? The coming of a Desolation.

Third, what actually makes the Desolation come? The release of the Heralds.

Fourth, what was Gavilar planning? I think he was planning on making the ideals well known among the populace. Maybe he got the Parshendi together beforehand and they discussed next steps, and Gavilar announced he was going to teach his people about the ideals. At some point, the Parshendi knew there was probably at least one honorable guy out there who would figure out how to access power through speaking the ideals.

Fifth, Kaladin speaks the ideals, accesses power through Stormlight and shortly thereafter...Taln shows up. Perhaps the KR figured out that speaking the ideals sparks a Desolation, so they gave up Shardplate and Blade to break the cycle. So, speaking the ideals triggers the Desolation. Kaladin, unwittingly, just opened the door for the final Desolation.

Now for the myraid of holes in this.

1. The KR had not always existed, at least we know they hadn't existed during Nohadon's life up to the point of Dalinar's vision, so how could Heralds be released if there was no one speaking the ideals? Perhaps it was done another way? Perhaps just because the KR weren't around during Nohadon's life, that doesn't mean there wasn't some organization before the last Desolation that he didn't know about that knew how to access Honor's power. Desolations wipe out people, but they also wipe out knowledge and history.

2. Also, we know the KR existed for quite some time after the Last Desolation and I would assume they had continuewd to recruit folks into their ranks, thereby repeating the ideals quite a few times, so why weren't they triggering a new Desolation everytime the ideals were spoken then?.....I really have no idea, and this might be the reason this theory doesn't work.

3. If speaking the words releases the Heralds and thus brings a Desolation, why would anyone write them down? Why wouldn't they just wipe such words from the lexicon of language...you know, just do something to make sure the words were never spoken? Maybe Honor was bound by the Oathpact, as well. He is bound by the Oathpact to fight the Desolations, but at least he can give his guys a chance by binding their enemy, as well. The Enemy can't bring on a Desolation until the Heralds are released. Honor makes sure only taking certian actions will give access to his power and binds the release of the Heralds to that....maybe. By leaving Taln to suffer, maybe Ishar is right, perhaps only one Herald needs to be returned to "that place" and what really would break the cycle of Desolations is making sure he was never released. Although, Jezrien did say they would have the KR so humans would be alright...so not sure what to think of that kink in the theory.

Well, I just wanted to get that out there to see if anyone has along those same lines.

[lDanielHolm]

Third, what actually makes the Desolation come? The release of the Heralds.

This doesn't make any sense.

Why on earth would the release of the Heralds cause a Desolation? At best, the Heralds being bound may prevent a Desolation, but if that is the case, the circumstances surrounding their bondage is complicated indeed, since the Desolations, y'know... happened.

One of the themes behind the Stormlight Archive is "magic returning." It seems to me that a theory relying on that return being... well... bad... is pretty much doomed.

[Dros]

This doesn't make any sense. :huh:/>

Why on earth would the release of the Heralds cause a Desolation? At best, the Heralds being bound may prevent a Desolation, but if that is the case, the circumstances surrounding their bondage is complicated indeed, since the Desolations, y'know... happened.

One of the themes behind the Stormlight Archive is "magic returning." It seems to me that a theory relying on that return being... well... bad... is pretty much doomed.

It would be one heckuva twist, though, wouldn't it?

[Turos]

Ya it would!

It seems like the Heralds oaths were made in response to the Desolation happening, or knowing they would happen.

But technically, if the people of Roshar see a Herald, they can be pretty certain a Desolation has come with him, and also the other way. At least until that Herald gave up on his commitment.

Here's my question: If the Herald's supposedly created the Orders of the Knights Radiant, how in hell, literally in hell, could they do this if every time they are cast out of Damnation they are too busy fighting the Voidbringers, and after the battle they are sent right back to Damnation? Did they have a period of time allotted before they had to return? Or did they found the Orders before they first went to Damnation?

Edited January 19, 2013 by Turos

[Dros]

Ya it would! :lol:/>

It seems like the Heralds oaths were made in response to the Desolation happening, or knowing they would happen.

But technically, if the people of Roshar see a Herald, they can be pretty certain a Desolation has come with him, and also the other way. At least until that Herald gave up on his commitment.

Here's my question: If the Herald's supposedly created the Orders of the Knights Radiant, how in hell, literally in hell, could they do this if every time they are cast out of Damnation they are too busy fighting the Voidbringers, and after the battle they are sent right back to Damnation? Did they have a period of time allotted before they had to return? Or did they found the Orders before they first went to Damnation?

I thought Nohadon founded them with the Way of the Kings as their guide. I might be wrong on that, though. I was thinking the Way of the Kings just changed the way people accessed Honor's power and created the KR. They did it before, but not the same way as a KR would. And that's a HUGE assumption on my part. Also, boons and curses are a theme in the book, as well. Old Magic will do something great for you...but not without a price to pay. Regaining the power of the KR is great, but now you have the Desolations to deal with.

For background though, I have a somewhat...different view of the Oathpact. I think we are looking at the Oathpact like it was treaty between warring Shards. That might be slightly off, in my opinion. Brandon had said Shardic power interferes with one another. If that's the case, three Shards allowing people to access their powers on one planet might be a bit hard to control without cooperation. One might need a bargain...or a compact, or say, an Oathpact, i.e. each party has certian obligations to fulfill, to make sure the magic on that planet has the desired effect. When all three parties were fulfilling these obligations, Roshar might have once been a flourishing planet...that had to fight a vicious war against an unknown enemy at regular intervals. Making the Oathpact really, really important to the defense of the planet.

Also, I don't think Odium is the Enemy during the Desolations (something many, many...many people don't agree with). I think he got pissed at Honor because his guys broke the Oathpact and messed everything up. This makes sense to me, because it's hard to believe that Honor said he should've known Odium would come for him. If you're warring with someone and have a brokered peace that you break, why wouldn't you think the enemy is coming for you. I think Honor's saying, my guys messed up, Odium is hate incarnate, I should have known he would've been really upset about this. I think Odium killed the Shards on Sel, because they interfered in some way on Roshar and he just got mad as hell about it.

I think when we see the quote, "Three of sixteen ruled, now the Broken One reigns." it means Honor, not Odium. I think the guy in the sky telling Kaladin he can't ride the storms anymore is a recording from Odium. "Honor broke the Oathpact, pal, GET OFF MY LAWN!" His quip at the end, "Odium reigns"? It's his way of saying "O'Doyle Rules!" in my opinion. A reminder that he's still around.

Taking all of that and applying it to the new reading of the chapter is somewhat how I got the above idea. I usually don't put it out there, because it's messy and I'm not quite sure I believe it myself.

Sorry for the long post, I just wanted folks to see where I was coming from.

[Turos]

Ah that's an interesting take on it for sure! I never thought about it that way. Definitely could be the case, but I find one thing that doesn't seem to fit. I can't see Honor breaking an oath. I know Shards have acted out of their intent's way to a degree in the past, but for me to see Honor breaking an oath, if this is what the oathpact is all about, I could only see him do so to fulfill a greater sense of honor, something that if he ignored would truly ruin what he is about.

Honor is the Broken One? Wow, that is really a great point! I could see this working very well.

[Dros]

Technically, Honor didn't break it. His chosen champions did. Anyone in a leadership position knows it doesn't matter what the troops screw up, you get blamed.

[dj26792]

Major flaw in that idea of events is that we've been told that Odium's major goal in life is to be the only shard left, his intent is both Hate and worthy of Hate, and he doesn't invest anything to maximise his personal power and goes around smashing shards to make sure he is the only one left, I don't think he was even on Roshar during the desolations I think Honour was killed fairly recently and Odium hasn't been there for long.

I think Honours comments are more likely to be meaning 'I've seen Odium about the cosmere killing peeps with shards, and I know he'll be wanderin over this way fairly soon.'

[Turos]

And yet we can predict Odium's arrival as it is a key plot tool of foreshadowing. Odium definitely will be on Roshar by the tenth book and more likely much sooner.

What gets me is why don't the other Shards team up on him? Can't they tell what he is doing? Honor apparently could, unless it was Odium after all who did him in. Is Odium now that strong that he can take on all the others at once? Then again, would all of them want to stop him? Maybe some are working with him, at least as far as they get something out of it.

Then I wonder about Cultivation. What's that Shard up to? Hiding and surviving? Seems that way.

[Dros]

Major flaw in that idea of events is that we've been told that Odium's major goal in life is to be the only shard left, his intent is both Hate and worthy of Hate, and he doesn't invest anything to maximise his personal power and goes around smashing shards to make sure he is the only one left, I don't think he was even on Roshar during the desolations I think Honour was killed fairly recently and Odium hasn't been there for long.

I think Honours comments are more likely to be meaning 'I've seen Odium about the cosmere killing peeps with shards, and I know he'll be wanderin over this way fairly soon.'

Have we been told that specifically? We've been told he doesn't pick up the Shards he splintered because he knows they would change his Intent. We were told he killed the Shardholders on Sel and we know he killed Honor, but it was my understanding we were never really told specifically why he did it. I agree that definitely makes sense, but I don't recall ever hearing that confirmed. If it has been confirmed...yeah, I agree, major flaw.

[dj26792]

I went looking for a quote that supported that but all I could find was the coppermind, which I trust, but that particular fact isn't cited. So I don't have absolute proof as to Odiums intentions, but there is some food for thought in Odiums article, although I'm not sure this is the thread to discuss it in.

Odium

[makromag]

I'm sorry, that this is kind of off topic, but I have heard references to the reason why the parshendi killed Gavilar and a reading of Stormlight 2 by Brandson Sanderson, but I cannot find that reading anywhere, neither transcript video or audio recording. Could someone please provide a link? It would be really appreciated.

Edit: Accidentally a word.

Edited January 21, 2013 by Makromag

[dj26792]

there were two that overlapped, and I'm not sure which one that particular part is but one of them is on this recording.