Cosmere Wide Magic

[Asha'man Logain]

OK, recently Brandon did a short interview, here's a link http://www.openthefridge.net/blog/2011/11/18/interview-author-brandon-sanderson.html

The Quote i'm most concerned with is this.

OTF: My question is if there’s anything that you’ve never been asked that you would like to talk about?

BS: Oooooh, ok. Hm. That one is so hard! Every time people ask me something like this... What have I never been asked that people should be asking, is basically what the question is? Something that the fans have just missed... They pick up on so much, that it’s hard... I do wonder if, you know… all the magic systems [in my books] are connected and work on some basic fundamental principles, and a lot of people haven’t been asking questions about this. One thing I did get a question on today, and I’ll just talk about this one... they didn’t ask the right question, but I nudged them the right way, is understanding that tie between Aondor [the magic system from Elantris] and allomancy [Mistborn’s magic system].

People ask about getting the power from metals and things, but that’s not actually how it works. The power’s not coming from metal. I talked a little about this before, but you are drawing power from some source, and the metal is actually just a gateway. It’s actually the molecular structure of the metal… what’s going on there, the pattern, the resonance of that metal works in the same way as an Aon does in Elantris. It filters the power. So it is just a sign of “this is what power this energy is going to be shaped into and give you.” When you understand that, compounding [in Alloy of Law] makes much more sense.

Brandon seems to be saying, that in addition to each Shard giving access to the powers of Creation, the magic syatem generated by that Shard, also give humans access to the power filtered through the focus, to the Shard, through the shard to the power of Creation.

He also seems to be implying that the Aondor and metallic arts are the same. You draw an Aon, that shape determines what form the power manifests as. You ingest a metal (or wear one, or stab someone with one) and the molecular shape determines what form the power of creation manifests.

Speculation here, maybe the commands are actually the shapes your mouth forms, determining what form the power shows up as.

I do not see how the shapes could be related to the SA magic system, Other than the crystaline shape for the fabrials. However that is almost an incedental use of the magic. I don't know how specific actions or bindings have anything to do with shape.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[Thor]

OK, recently Brandon did a short interview, here's a link http://www.openthefridge.net/blog/2011/11/18/interview-author-brandon-sanderson.html

The Quote i'm most concerned with is this.

<Snip>

Brandon seems to be saying, that in addition to each Shard giving access to the powers of Creation, the magic syatem generated by that Shard, also give humans access to the power filtered through the focus, to the Shard, through the shard to the power of Creation.

He also seems to be implying that the Aondor and metallic arts are the same. You draw an Aon, that shape determines what form the power manifests as. You ingest a metal (or wear one, or stab someone with one) and the molecular shape determines what form the power of creation manifests.

Speculation here, maybe the commands are actually the shapes your mouth forms, determining what form the power shows up as.

I do not see how the shapes could be related to the SA magic system, Other than the crystaline shape for the fabrials. However that is almost an incedental use of the magic. I don't know how specific actions or bindings have anything to do with shape.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

It's a rather nice piece of information. On to speculation!!

I would take a guess that the determining form of the power in Awakening is thoughts not the actual spoken Commands. Remember that the way you visualize the Command influences the result, below the Sixth Heightening Awakening requires touch and that people who reach the Tenth Heightening can awaken without speaking.

I don't have an idea for SA either...

[SOM1else]

So this reminds me of something Brandon said at the AoL signing at BYU, I don't remember exactly what the question was so if anyone that was there remembers better please post. But basically he was asked a question about how one of the metalic arts work, and he responded by saying that the metal isn't the source of the magic but more of a doorway to the power. I wonder if what he really meant was that it opens a Dor-way to the power

O.O

Edited November 20, 2011 by SOM1else

[Chaos]

Am I the only one who read that quote and was completely unsurprised? The only thing that was unexpected was that Feruchemy "changed" the focus, so now Allomancy grabs a Feruchemical ability instead. I hadn't heard of Compounding described in exactly that way, but it makes perfect sense.

All Brandon is saying in that quote is about how focuses work: a specific thing which filters the power in a specific way. And yes, it bothers me that we don't know the focus for Surgebinding. That's why this five page topic dedicated to blabbing about focuses exists. Um, yeah.

Brandon seems to be saying, that in addition to each Shard giving access to the powers of Creation, the magic syatem generated by that Shard, also give humans access to the power filtered through the focus, to the Shard, through the shard to the power of Creation.

He also seems to be implying that the Aondor and metallic arts are the same. You draw an Aon, that shape determines what form the power manifests as. You ingest a metal (or wear one, or stab someone with one) and the molecular shape determines what form the power of creation manifests.

Speculation here, maybe the commands are actually the shapes your mouth forms, determining what form the power shows up as.

I do not see how the shapes could be related to the SA magic system, Other than the crystaline shape for the fabrials. However that is almost an incedental use of the magic. I don't know how specific actions or bindings have anything to do with shape.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

First thing, I don't quite agree with your analysis of how Shards work in that initial paragraph. Needlessly complex. I prefer to think of it as the Shards are the power of creation--they aren't hooked up to an external power, which is what your statement sort of implies.

And yes. Focuses are the method which humans get to use that power. From the Brandonology (Hero of Ages Spoiler thread):

The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms.

How do you access it? Through the metals. From the Hero of Ages Annotations (Chapter 38, if you're wondering):

First, to these forces, energy and mass are the same thing. So, their power can take physical shape—as Preservation's did in the bead of metal Elend ate. Second, there is a bit of Preservation inside of all the people—and it's this that allows the people to perform Allomancy. It needs to be awakened and stirred to be of use, but when it is, a proper metal can draw forth more of Preservation's power. It's like the metal attunes the bit within the person, allowing it to act as a catalyst to grab more power.

Allomancy is not fueled by metal; it is fueled by Preservation. The metal is the means by which a person can access that fuel, however. If there were another way to access it, then the metal wouldn't be needed.

So, yeah. None of this stuff is exactly groundbreaking.

Regarding the Commands, I always thought that that focus was a Cognitive focus, rather than a Physical one, like metals or the shapes of Aons, and that's perfectly okay. It's more the intent behind the Commands that make them work, as you say.

One more thing: focuses don't have to explicitly link to the power of creation. Look at Feruchemy, which draws from your body, rather than from the external power of creation. It's an important subtlety to keep in mind when trying to define what a focus is. But all a focus really is is a specific gateway to a specific interaction. At least, this was what Mad Scientist and I determined in the Focuses on Roshar thread.

So this reminds me of something Brandon said at the AoL signing at BYU, I don't remember exactly what the question was so if anyone that was there remembers better please post. But basically he was asked a question about how one of the metalic arts work, and he responded by saying that the metal isn't the source of the magic but more of a doorway to the power.

View that quote from the annotations I posted there.

So, yeah, I don't mean to be a downer, but we seriously knew all this stuff before. Indeed, focuses are extremely important to magic systems and the cosmere in general. I don't mean to denigrate that part of this discussion. Identifying a focus is absolutely essential. It's just we knew that already, years ago.

Some more astute questions would be, why is a Shard's magic tied to a particular focus? Why are Ruin and Preservation blind to their focus? What are the focuses for Surgebinding? What is Endowment blind to? And so on.

[SOM1else]

So, yeah, I don't mean to be a downer, but we seriously knew all this stuff before. Indeed, focuses are extremely important to magic systems and the cosmere in general. I don't mean to denigrate that part of this discussion. Identifying a focus is absolutely essential. It's just we knew that already, years ago.

I knew about focuses, I just was speculating that the Dor is the source of power the focuses draw from.

[ulyssessword]

You didn't mention hemalurgy

He also seems to be implying that the Aondor and metallic arts are the same. You draw an Aon, that shape determines what form the power manifests as. You ingest a metal (or wear one, or stab someone with one) and the molecular shape determines what form the power of creation manifests.

Emphasis added.

A good place to look for how this would fit is Three Parts of Magic theory. It seems like the "shape" here is linked to the physical aspect in that theory, which would make it Metals for Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy, Aons/geography for Aon Dor, Colour for awakening, but I disagree with it on Surgebinding, I think it's the "body focus" (eyes, inhalation, exhalation, etc...) in that case, though I haven't fully thought it out.

EDIT: apparently a few posts slipped in while I was typing.

Edited November 20, 2011 by ulyssessword

[Asha'man Logain]

First thing, I don't quite agree with your analysis of how Shards work in that initial paragraph. Needlessly complex. I prefer to think of it as the Shards are the power of creation--they aren't hooked up to an external power, which is what your statement sort of implies.

I thought i had read somewhere on here that even adonalsium itself was not the power of creation, but a channel to that power. I am aware of the focus threads etc. I meant was alluding to the fact that brandon specifically says that like the Aons, it's the shape of the metalic molocules that define what power you get. He seemed to be saying that just like the Aondor, it's the SHAPE that forms the power. It just so happens that coincidentally differing molecular shapes make different metals.

He also referenced that fact that ALL his magic systems work they same way in on a basic level. Hence the speculation on shapes being important regardless of the focus. That's why i was thinking the commands (which are the focus) may be influenced by the SHAPE somehow.

This was not intended to be a focus thread, more an underlying mechanics of all magic thread.

[b4dave]

The Shape for commands makes sense...it is stated in the novel that the closer to human shape an object is, the easier it is to Awaken and Command.

[Shard Obsessed]

I think shape isn't the best descriptor for it - pattern seems to be more accurate. Brandon describes it as the pattern of the molecular structure of metals is what acts as the filter. I think this is key, because pattern implies a certain repetition...its not just a shape, its the SAME shape, over and over and thus always filtering the power in the same way and resulting in the same effects.

Plus, it makes focuses a bit more flexible. Commands aren't the shape your mouth makes, they're the pattern of words, filtering the power to animate things in certain ways. As for surgebinding, I'm fairly certain the oaths are the key there - or what Chaos was describing as the intent behind Commands, a Cognitive focus. The noble motivations or acts of practitioners (Kaladin's protective instincts, Shallan's truth's, etc) are what act as a filter to the power, but the oaths, the spoken words are the true focus, the pattern that efficiently filters the power to achieve a desired effect every time. It's like with BioChroma - if you have enough breath, you can animate clumsily, you'll stumble into ways to use the power, but you need knowledge of the Commands to really use the power efficiently, as its meant to. It's why Allomancy requires pure metals....tainted or poor quality metals will still burn, but inefficiently, because the pattern, the molecular structure that's the key to filtering the power isn't what it's supposed to be. Raoden lucked his way some magic effects in Elantris by mimicking shapes in books, but it took a true understanding of Elantris and the patterns it laid out to use its magic to the fullest. The same with the Oaths of the Radiants. All the Orders use Surgebinding, the different Oaths for the different Orders are just different filters resulting in specific powers, much like steel vs iron in the metallic arts.

[Asha'man Logain]

I think shape isn't the best descriptor for it - pattern seems to be more accurate. Brandon describes it as the pattern of the molecular structure of metals is what acts as the filter. I think this is key, because pattern implies a certain repetition...its not just a shape, its the SAME shape, over and over and thus always filtering the power in the same way and resulting in the same effects.

Plus, it makes focuses a bit more flexible. Commands aren't the shape your mouth makes, they're the pattern of words, filtering the power to animate things in certain ways. As for surgebinding, I'm fairly certain the oaths are the key there - or what Chaos was describing as the intent behind Commands, a Cognitive focus. The noble motivations or acts of practitioners (Kaladin's protective instincts, Shallan's truth's, etc) are what act as a filter to the power, but the oaths, the spoken words are the true focus, the pattern that efficiently filters the power to achieve a desired effect every time. It's like with BioChroma - if you have enough breath, you can animate clumsily, you'll stumble into ways to use the power, but you need knowledge of the Commands to really use the power efficiently, as its meant to. It's why Allomancy requires pure metals....tainted or poor quality metals will still burn, but inefficiently, because the pattern, the molecular structure that's the key to filtering the power isn't what it's supposed to be. Raoden lucked his way some magic effects in Elantris by mimicking shapes in books, but it took a true understanding of Elantris and the patterns it laid out to use its magic to the fullest. The same with the Oaths of the Radiants. All the Orders use Surgebinding, the different Oaths for the different Orders are just different filters resulting in specific powers, much like steel vs iron in the metallic arts.

I see. Pattern does fit better. I had a thought as i drifted off to sleep about the SA 'pattern'. Maybe it is the particular wavelengths of Stormlight that effect what you can do with it. The problem I had is again, it seems to be true in regards to the fabrials, but not the magic users themselves. Perhaps it is the pattern of honorable actions taken in your life that determine which Order's powers you get?

[Wispsy]

I know it's the commands and all but you seem to never take account that awakening can be done with no sound or movement of the mouth at all, it's much more about the visualisation, according to vasher, note how he can do very complicated things with small amounts of breath and 2 words, the words someone else can use to get completely different results

[Asha'man Logain]

I know it's the commands and all but you seem to never take account that awakening can be done with no sound or movement of the mouth at all, it's much more about the visualisation, according to vasher, note how he can do very complicated things with small amounts of breath and 2 words, the words someone else can use to get completely different results

I was wondering if non-verbal awakening could be done, but it couldn't remember if it was something only the god-king could do, or if it couldn't be done at all. Seems that theory is gone then.

What pattern then could be determining how the power is shaped on Nalthis? I think brainwaves is stretching a bit far, but who knows?

[discipleofhoid]

I was wondering if non-verbal awakening could be done, but it couldn't remember if it was something only the god-king could do, or if it couldn't be done at all. Seems that theory is gone then.

What pattern then could be determining how the power is shaped on Nalthis? I think brainwaves is stretching a bit far, but who knows?

Well let's look at the basic case - with the basic case of Awakening you have to have breath, color, a command and you have to visualize the effect of the command. More breath makes it easier but does not change the effect. Amount of color does not seem to be a factor in how well the command works either. So that leaves the command and the visualization.

The command must be verbalized for the lower heightenings but in the upper heightenings can be given mentally. This makes me think that this is a cognitive filter for the power. Metal and shapes are physical patterns that shape the power, the commands are a cognitive pattern that filter the power. I would guess that at the lower heightenings the verbal Command is necessary to form a firm enough pattern on the cognitive realm to filter the power. Notice that at the lower heightenings you must be touching objects to Awaken them - similarly to soulcasting which is also a cognitive realm task.

[ulyssessword]

I know it's the commands and all but you seem to never take account that awakening can be done with no sound or movement of the mouth at all, it's much more about the visualisation, according to vasher, note how he can do very complicated things with small amounts of breath and 2 words, the words someone else can use to get completely different results

Do you have any support for this? The Ars Arcanum says that the requirement for touching the object is lost at the ninth heightening (Audible Command), but I didn't see anything about changing the requirement for a clearly spoken Command. This is why cutting out the God King's tongue worked to prevent him from using his Breath.

I agree that the visualization can change the effect significantly, but it is still constrained by the Command used to Awaken it.

[Wispsy]

Nope vasher even explains that that was how they passed the breaths in the end, just required a little training, and as we know the god kings weren't exactly trained at anything at all

[Wispsy]

Also I think it's listed in a list of the heightenings, also it cannot be constrained by the shape of ye words, different languages use different shapes for words, would mean you could only awaken in one language, which isn't true else there wouldn't be a condition of using your native language

[discipleofhoid]

Also I think it's listed in a list of the heightenings, also it cannot be constrained by the shape of ye words, different languages use different shapes for words, would mean you could only awaken in one language, which isn't true else there wouldn't be a condition of using your native language

Here is the quote - It sin't in the list of heightenings

Vasher shrugged. “The Tenth Heightening allows a man to Command mentally, without speaking, but it can take months of training to learn how to do that��"even if you have someone to teach you. I think his priests must know how, so they can transfer that wealth of Breath from one king to another, but I doubt they’ve trained him yet. One of their duties is to keep him from using his Breaths in the first place.”

[happyman]

Nope vasher even explains that that was how they passed the breaths in the end, just required a little training, and as we know the god kings weren't exactly trained at anything at all

I would modify this to a lot of training, but this is essentially correct: at the tenth heightening, commands can be given non-verbally. I'm guessing it requires an awful lot of mental self-control, though, in order for this to work. It seems more and more likely, to me, that the Command is essentially cognitive, and that it filters power much like Aons filter the Dor or metals filter the power of preservation.

[Shard Obsessed]

Right exactly. The command is still the focus, or the filter. Just the degree of training and ability gives one more options in how you give it, allowing for non-verbal as well as verbal - but the command itself remains the same.

[Wispsy]

Yes it is the command but it is not the shape or pattern of individual words as any language can be used, also the same words can do multiple different things anyway

[happyman]

Yes it is the command but it is not the shape or pattern of individual words as any language can be used, also the same words can do multiple different things anyway

That's why we say it is essentially cognitive. You have to say the words correctly, but that's probably just to make a sufficiently stable pattern in your mind to channel the power correctly. Saying it, then hearing it while saying it, provides feedback, which makes your understanding of the sound much more stable, mentally. It's a classic feedback loop. This goes a long way towards explaining why it has to be in your native language (the understanding has to be as clear and natural as possible), why the same commands can be flexible in interpretation, why practicing the visualization is important, and presumably why enough Breath allows you to break the "rule" with training---if you have enough breath, the Cognitive aspect can be foggier and it will still work, thus allowing non-verbal commands.

[Wispsy]

Happyman maybe I should have clarified, I've agreed with everything you said here

[happyman]

Happyman maybe I should have clarified, I've agreed with everything you said here

Oh, OK. Well, I don't mind the chance to put it all out in a clear, coherent form, then. Actually, this theory is making a lot of sense. The power always has to be filtered through something to determine what it does. With Scandrial, it's metal. With Sel, it's shapes. With Awakening, it's the cognitive command. I'm guessing but (I think somebody said it earlier) with Stormlight, it's the virtue of ones life. Maybe Roshar has a Spiritual filter?

[Shard Obsessed]

Yup, that's what I think - its the spiritual commitment to a facet of Honor, with the spoken Oaths being the specific focus, and why there's such an importance on speaking the words.

[Asha'man Logain]

Sounds good so far. Thanks to evryone for your tweaking and feedback. i hope we all have a better understanding of the cosmere, or at least got you thinking about other aspects of it.