Varion

I just posted a scenario that relies upon this exact theory over on a thread about Death Rattles less than an hour ago: This was all based on my idea that three particular death rattles (below) refer directly to Taravangian, and some critical choice in his future. I have a few different ideas about what that choice may be, and whether it has already happened or not, but in the scenario in the post above I posit that it must not be a simple prediction of the future, but a deliberate attempt by Odium/Moelach to push T towards a choice counter to the future presented in the rattles. Pure speculation of course, and based on far more assumptions than strong evidence, but it demonstrates how your ideas for 3, 4 and 5 might work in theory. Here are the rattles I was referring to: 4. “A man stood on a cliffside and watched his homeland fall into dust. The waters surged beneath, so far beneath. And he heard a child crying. They were his own tears. ” — Collected on Tanatesev 1171, 30 seconds pre-death, by the Silent Gatherers. Subject was a cobbler of some renown

I agree that the suckling child could be metaphorical. I also agree that it could all refer to the moment of his bargain with Odium. If that's the case, though, I don't think the baby refers to Kharbranth. Afterall, if he chose to save the city, why is it falling? The internal logic doesn't flow. Another metaphorical reading could be that the baby represents the fledgling Knights Radiant. Taravangian is thus faced with the choice of supporting the KR, or saving Kharbranth. If this is true (and I am not at all convinced that it is), then it is interesting that Taravangian made the opposite choice in reality. This makes sense if we consider that Odium/Moeloch could be trying to manipulate Taravangian with through the death rattles. By showing him a metaphorical vision of their future bargain, Odium could influence Taravangian's decision in advance, by presents a potential version of the future that paints his options in stark contrast. For example, by playing up the pain and inevitability of the losing Kharbranth, while minimising the value of saving the helpless, baby Knights Radiant, Odium could nudge Taravangian towards choosing to save his city and give up the KR as a lost cause. As I said, I don't really believe this is the right interpretation, but I offer it up as a potential metaphorical reading that makes more sense than having the baby represent Kharbranth.

@Wit Beyond Measure, I've been enjoying the threads that you've posted, even if I don't always agree with your theories. You generally ask very questions, which lead to interesting discussions that I find valuable because they advance my own understanding of the Cosmere, even when I completely disagree with the original theory. In fact, often it's better if I disagree, because you have to do twice the work to challenge an idea than to agree with it. And while we might never end up agreeing on the theory, hopefully we have both asked deeper questions and learnt more from the discussion than either of us could on our own. I really believe that asking good questions when you open up a new thread is much more valuable than providing the right answer to those questions in the first post. That's because these forums work best as a collaborative effort. Sanderson's Cosmere is an incredibly complicated universe, with information scattered across multiple books (published and unpublished), thousands of WoB's, and various other clues and marginalia. Sifting through it all to make sense of everything, and make predictions is fun, but getting it right on your own is frankly impossible. Fortunately, the 17th Shard forums have done an amazing job, not only of collating and parsing all of that information, but also of creating a highly comprehensive and searchable wiki and WoB archive. But the best resource is absolutely the other sharders, especially the old guard, who have probably already asked these questions before, and have accumulated far more cosmeric theory than us. So keep asking the questions, and be aware that if you feel your are being attacked personally, then maybe it's because you are holding your theories a little too close to your heart. A good exercise might be to go back and look at all the theories written before Oathbringer was released, and see how plain wrong most of them appear now. Most of us will be wrong. But the theories that got it right (or almost right) generally came from vigorous discussions where the evidence won out and people acknowledged their errors. Edit: Yeah, what @hoiditthroughthegrapevine said.

Yes! I agree completely with this. The Rhythms are pre-defined, in the sense that they originate from a universal set of emotional ideas within the Spiritual Realm (a very Platonic idea). And they have become a mode of communication for the Singers, who are able to hum the rhythms, and incorporate them into their speech patterns. Yes, individual Singers have control over which rhythm they attune at any time, either to communicate an emotion externally, or to help reinforce or change their own emotional state. We see this many times as Eshonai or Venli make conscious choices to attune one rhythm or another to give greater emotional context to their words. I assume the it's the Jungian idea of the Collective Unconscious that is being referred to in the WoB. In psychoanalytical language, that would make the Rhythms, or the emotional ideals they represent, to be "archaic remnants"or "archetypes" that provide an innate mental structure that is the common inheritance of all sapient minds (Jung would say human minds, but he didn't know about the Parshendi ;-) ). I'm cautious attributing too much direct correlation between the Rhythms and Jungian theory, since Brandon only mentioned it as an inspiration, not a firm template, but it the similarities are definitely striking. Jung believed that the Collective Unconscious was a secondary system, sitting below our immediate, individual unconscious. Our individual unconscious is built through personal experience, and is the primary driver of our immediate emotional responses and thoughts, while the Collective Unconscious comprises the entire history of consciousness, and exerts a constant pull on the individual back towards the primal paths of the mind. This has some pretty serious implications for the Singers. In humans, the Collective Unconscious can only be accessed secondarily, though dreams, or symbol readings, for example. But the Singers have a direct link to these ideals, and can consciously attune themselves to them. This certainly has benefits, both for the individual and for the society, allowing for much higher levels of social cohesion. But by increasing the immediate influence of the archaic emotional ideals on the Singers, it also sets limitations on individual freedoms. Furthermore, it trains them to defer to and align with the emotional ideals over their personal experience and individual unconscious. Viewed like this, the corruption of the Rhythms is an extremely insidious act, because the Singers are predisposed to trust the Rhythms and adapt to those mental structures, rather than question them.

31. Seems to be a reference to the rhythms, which 'no man can hear', but the parshendi can. The black piper would be the one who makes those rhythms. Or it's something sneaky with Wit and his flute. We have WoB that the Black Piper is not Hoid : After WoK, I was sure this rattle was referring to the Rhythms, suggesting that they came from the Black Piper. But there was a problem with that theory. There are two different sets of Rhythms: The old rhythms that the Listeners are attuned to; and the new, more hateful Rhythms, that come with the forms of power. Which means either there are two, separate sources of the rhythms, or there is only one source, and they are somehow being corrupted when the Listeners take on a form of power. Either way, my theory (and I think many other people's theory) was that the Black Piper was an Unmade, responsible for either corrupting the signal, or producing an Odius counter-signal. The question left unanswered here is "Where do the old Rhythms come from?" I think @Steeldancer provides by far the best explanation for the Rhythms, buried deep within his seriously impressive thesis on the Spiritual Realm (read it all if you haven't already, it's brilliant). Here's how he described the Rhythms in the essay: As I understand it, these spiritual pulses escape the SR, and reach the Listeners, filtered through the CR via their spren bonds, until they can be heard as Rhythms, resonating with their own emotions. The language used by Eshonia and Venli to describe interacting with the Rhythms is reminiscent of "tuning" into a radio, and "cycling" through the frequencies. If you've played with an old crystal radio, then the idea of a spren in a gemheart acting like a detector is an easy analogy to make. @Calderis does a good job of explaining this, and why the rhythms are received differently when Listeners bond voidspren and adopt forms of power. Which is all incredibly fascinating, but doesn't really help us with our Black Piper problem. If the Black Piper isn't required to create or corrupt the rhythms, then what in Damnation is the tune he's playing? I have no idea. Any thoughts?

I believe these three are linked and refer directly to a pivotal event in Taravangian's future. I present them here not in the order in which they were recorded, but in the ordrr in which I think the future events will play out. Note that the last one recorded was said directly to Taravangian. — Collected on Shashanan 1173, 23 seconds pre-death, by the Silent Gatherers. Subject was a darkeyed youth of sixteen years. Sample is of particular note.[24] — Observed circa Ishi 1173 by Taravangian. Subject was King Valam of Jah Keved.[4] — Collected on Tanatesev 1171, 30 seconds pre-death, by the Silent Gatherers. Subject was a cobbler of some renown I think these show three critical, and sequential moments in Taravangian's future. It appears to predict that Taravangian's bargain with Odium to save his city and its people will hinge on killing a baby, or not. The first rattle lays out the choice: kill this baby and give his people "further breath to draw." I think it particularly noteworthy that this rattle is considered "of particular note" by the Silent Gatherers. It's possible that the Diagram helped them recognise this as referring to Taravangian. The second rattle predicts the moment if choice for Taravangian. And it seems that his compassion will win out. A big boost to all those theorists who think the most important part of Taravangian's boon from Cultivation was his compassion, not his intelligence. It's interesting that this rattle was spoken directly to Taravangian. Did he recognise it for what it was? Is it to be trusted? Is it some sort of psych out by Moeloch? And the third one shows the result of the choice. The fall of Kharbranth. The child crying in the background confirms that he spared its life, while Taravangian's tears tell us that this all happened on a compassionate day. Clearly, if my theory here is accurate, then most of the details are unknown to us yet. We don't know who the child is yet. We don't know why Taravangian has been asked to kill it, although it seems safe to assume that it was Odium making the demand. We don't even know if the child is important in their own right, or whether it's more of a symbolic sacrifice. I'll be paying close attention to any new born children in the next book though ...

This exactly. We really need to keep our definitions in line with the cannon usage, or these discussions will just keep going in circles. Here's my (very) quick stab at defining these terms: Corrupted: a spren or human or parshendi who has suffered some permanent (possibly reversible) alteration to one or more of their physical, cognitive or spiritual aspects, as a result of direct magical interference, in order to fundamentally change and/or control them in some way counter to their natural state. Influenced: a spren or human or parshendi who has had some pre-existing feature of their physical and/or cognitive and/or spiritual aspects dulled or enhanced through direct magical interference in order to alter their behaviour and decisions in a way that favourable to an external agent. The primary changes will only occur as long as the magical interference acts upon them, although the resulting actions may cause secondary physical and psychologic effects, which may be long lasting or permanent. Manipulated: a spren, human or parshendi who has had their beliefs, behaviours, decisions, actions and psychological state altered through indirect magical and non-magical methods in order to favour some external agent. The effects may be immediate, short term, long-term or permanent. And again for the record, I don't believe Shallan has been corrupted in any way. She has definitely felt the influence of multiple Unmade, although I would argue that she has so far been able to resist these influences. And it's still uo in the air as to whether Sja-anat is trying to manipulate her, or whether she is sincere about wanting to defect from Odium.

I thought this at first, but its just not the case. The VOICE said, paraphrase, "I'm taking this one and entered her gemstone, bound with her, giving the form of envoy." Odium wouldn't become trapped inside of Venli's gemstone to ultimately allow Timbre to bind with her and trap him inside of her. That doesn't jive with me.. The Voice did seem older, wise even possibly more ancient than the other more aggressive powerful voidspren trying to take over. Perhaps one of the Unmade IDK it did feel different and significant. Definitely not Odium tho. Venli and Renarin are the crossover wildcards in this mess. This could signify the Traitor/spy manuever people have been expecting imagine a radiant with an unmade at her core. More and more, I think the investiture whatever it is, honor and cultivation mixmatch or all three together, is common and available to everyone. Its simply the religion that is creating the divisions(limitations) between the sides and in total Sanderson fashion its about how the people (parshcendi included) handle the temptations and ward off the influences. I think it was Odium that spoke to Venli in the storm, but then he gave her an envoy voidspren. As @StrikerEZ says, how could a "witless voidspren" as it is referred to later in the interlude, have the authority to say "CHOOSE ANOTHER. THIS ONE IS MINE" and the power to force a Fused out of Venli's gemheart. The clincher for me though is in a later Interlude, I-11 Her Reward, when Odium visits her directly during another Everstorm and berates her for not telling the story well enough. He finishes the conversation with the most brutal sign off ever: "This one is mine." and "You are mine". Both Odium.

Thanks @Dreamstorm, I wasn't aware of this WoB. Very interesting. Two details jump out to me from this quote. Firstly, Brandon uses the words "enhanced" and "exaggerated", which suggests that Nan Balat already had a problem with animal cruelty, and the magic is somehow amplifying it. Secondly, the phrase "certain forces moving in on Roshar". Not moving on Roshar, moving in on Roshar. Of course, that could just be an ambiguity of the transcription (it did say it was indistinct), but if it is accurate, then it's a peculiar choice of words by Brandon. Could it refer to some external "forces"? A group of cosmere-aware world-hoppers, for example, with an interest in the Davar family and potential access to exotic magic systems, perhaps? Do the Ghostbloods have a Soother in their ranks? Unlikely, but I'll just leave that thought hanging ... It's more probable that he is referring to the Unmade, but the only one that I could find that could possibly fit is Dai-gonarthis, the Black Fisher, who we know very little about beyond this death rattle from WoK: This is the best hint we have of Dai-gonarthis' effects, but it does seem to fit with the way maiming animals "soothes" Balat's aches. Dai-gonarthis is only mentioned a couple of other times; in Mythica, where Hessi seems unsure whether Dia-gonarthis is the ninth Unmade, and whether it was the cause of the destruction of Aimia (Oathbringer Chapter 113 epigraph); and by Jezrien, in the guise of the drunk Ahu, in this intriguing exchange with Dalinar: That raises more questions than it answers*, but it does at least seem to confirm that Dai-gonarthis is an Unmade, and that it is potentially active in Roshar. *One question it raises: Who is Jezrien referring to in the last paragraph? He was talking about the Unmade immediately beforehand, but do we trust his mind enough to have followed that train of thought through? And if so, what are the implications of this admission for the origins of the Unmade? It's too ambiguous to be certain, but it's a quote worth bookmarking for later.

Lots of great points coming through from everyone. Let me try to engage with them quickly @Wit Beyond Measure, regarding Sja-anat's ability to corrupt people: You are quite right, I hadn't thought about this. Here's the direct quote: I agree that this does leave open the possibility that Sja-anat can corrupt humans. The context is important though, so here's how the conversation developed on the previous page: In the light of this, I think it's clear that Shallan's comments about the Unmade corrupting people refer to Ashertmarn, not Sja-anat. Of course, we later learn that a third Unmade, Yelig-nar, is also present, and there's little doubt that he 'corrupts' the queen. Looking at what Hessi actually says about Sja-anat in the illustration that precedes this chapter, Hessi only ever mentions spren: And from Hessi's commentary: Which suggests to me that whatever stories of Unmade corrupting people that Hessi reports in Mythica, they do not refer to Sja-anat. It's easy to see how the stories about the effects of Ashertmarn, Yelig-nar, and also Nergaoul (the Thrill), could be interpreted as "corrupting" people. @insert_anagram_here, @Wit Beyond Measure, and @RShara, regarding the corruption of Pattern: I completely agree with Rshara here (upvote for the very useful analysis, btw). Pattern has not been corrupted. Once again, I see Shallan's mental state (and the mental states of her brothers) as purely a psychological response to childhood trauma. Her ability to partition her personality is defence mechanism, which is complicated and amplified by Shallan's ability to externally manifest these personalities through Lightweaving. Brandon went to great length, and graphic description, to detail the traumas that Shallan and her brothers faced. I don't think we need to go searching for any other supernatural explanations for her present psychology. @RShara, @Wit Beyond Measure and @hoiditthroughthegrapevine regarding "the Traitor" I agree that the traitor mentioned on the back cover is Venli. I don't think that is in dispute. But the traitor mentioned in the Diagram epigraphs in WoR was almost certainly referencing an Unmade, and is therefore a completely different traitor. If you group the epigraphs together based on where they came from the Diagram, then you'll see that this quote was part of the Book of the Second Desk Drawer, a section devoted to the Unmade. We have three quotes from this section, which are handily gathered together on Coppermind: Source: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Diagram Plus, the fact that the Ghostbloods seem to have information about an Unmade ready to defect (as @hoiditthroughthegrapevine reminded us), further confirms that there are two traitors -- Venli and one of the Unmade. And since Sja-anat has said onscreen that she wants to help Shallan, I think it's very safe to conclude that she's the one being referred to. Whether we can trust her defection, or whether she is trying to infiltrate the KR for Odium remains to be seen (although as I said earlier, I am leaning towards believing that she is sincere, if not 100% trustworthy).

Another thought provoking thread @Wit Beyond Measure. Upvote for 'Sha-Sja' :-) Sja-anat's potential defection from Odium was one of the most infuriatingly devious little tricks Sanderson pulled in OB. The question of whether she is trustworthy is going to a burr in my mind until the next book. After reading OB I had a spectrum of four basic possibilities in my head for her: She can be fully trusted, because she has developed enough self-awareness and intelligence to decide independently that she must oppose Odium; She can be somewhat trusted, because her current motivations somehow put her at odds with Odium (I'm thinking about her apparent devotion to her 'children', Glys in particular, and what an Odium victory might mean for them -- but I haven't really fleshed this idea out yet); She is somewhat untrustworthy, by which I mean that she is a dangerous agent loyal to Odium, but fairly easy to see through, and unable to fool Shallan; She is fully untrustworthy, with the abilities of a double-agent super-spy, able to completely infiltrate the KR, win them over and sabotage them from within. Of these options, I feel like 2 is the most likely, followed by 4. I favour 2, mainly because option 4 scares me so much, but also because of this quote from the Diagram about the Unmade: I think 1 and 3 are unlikely, mainly because they are the least narratively interesting paths for Brandon to take. Your theory effectively adds a 5th option, namely that she already has infiltrated the KR and is actively sabotaging them, by corrupting Shallan/Pattern (and by inference, also Renarin/Glys). I can certainly follow your thought process, and see how you came to suspect that Sja-anat had corrupted Shallan (or is in the process of doing so). I still think options 2 and 4 are more likely, but let's talk through this a little. First, we have to question whether it's even possible for Sja-anat to corrupt humans. Sja-anat was historically only ever been able to corrupt lesser spren. Glys is the exception, but it seems that this is so far an isolated incident, and that corrupting higher spren is at the upper limit of her powers. I concede that it is possible that Sja-anat could have developed her powers further since the Recreance, and may now be powerful enough to corrupt humans. I don't personally believe it, but let's say it's true, just for argument's sake. What would direct corruption of a human look like? What do you think the effects of that corruption are and how do you think it would work? If we assume that it would work similarly to how she corrupts spren, then that should have very clear effects, just as the spren who have been corrupted are very noticeably corrupted. For example, Sja-anat's corruption of spren leads to a visible change in their manifestation in the Physical Realm (and presumably in the Cognitive Realm too) but I really don't see anything comparable to that in Shallan. Another effect, at least for lower spren, appears to some level of mind control, which at the very least makes the spren loyal to Sja-anat. The example, the corrupted river spren that Dalinar sees in one of his first visions in WoK. This presumably gives Sja-anat an army of spies and scouts, which squares with her "Secret Taker" name. We do not know what the connection is like between Sja-anat and Glys, whether he has any loyalty to her, or whether they are in communication. What is clear though, is that Renarin has access to a mix of surgebinding and voidbinding surges, thanks to Glys' corruption. So should we expect to see either of these effects, mind control or voidish powers, in Shallan? Once again, I see no evidence or anything like that. Shallan certainly has a lot going on inside her head, but there's nothing that can't be more easily explained by normal human psychological responses to a traumatic childhood, interacting with her burgeoning Lightweaver powers. Powers which, incidentally, show no signs of voidbinding. The only clear instances of external influence on Shallan's mind have been her direct interactions with the Unmade, first in Urithiru, and the in Kholinar. But these seem to be the standard way the Unmade interact with humans, and there is no indication that Sja-anat's communication with her was anything more than the Unmade version of a conversation. I also don't see any evidence that Sja-anat have had any contact prior to Kholinar. The surprise Sja-anat showed in the mirror is more easily explained as the shock of seeing a Radiant in a well-defended stronghold of three Unmade. The second contact, in the cult parade, shows no sign of familiarity -- Shallan simply noted that the voice stood out relative to the Revel's voice. And when she hears the voice again, outside the Oathgate, it shouldn't be a surprise that she realises that she'd heard it before. So if Sja-anat hasn't already corrupted Shallan, could she be working towards it? Maybe. But why then all the attempts to gain her trust? If she does have the power to corrupt her with her touch, why would she need to prove that she wants to help her, and is trying to work against Odium? I

That might well be true. But if so, then it just adds further weight to the idea that he fears repercussions from the other Shards.

@Greywatch's quote brings up an excellent point that I hadn't thought of: There are risks and costs to fighting directly. My interpretation of this quote is that the "forces that could hurt him" are the other Shards. Perhaps by fighting Dalinar directly, Odium will break some sort of pact or redline that prevents the Shards from attacking humans. If you think about this more broadly across the Cosmere, I can't think of any instance of a Shard directly 'smiting' any living creature, let alone a human. My original thought was that they were actually incapable of causing physical harm to living beings, perhaps in similar way to Hoid, who cannot harm people physically. If this were true, then it it makes complete sense that Odium would run from a direct confrontation with Dalinar. But in the light of this quote, perhaps it's not an inability to harm to Dalinar, but the greater repercussions from other Shards that Odium fears.

Haha, yes, my thoughts exactly. I think Dalinar's vision of the destruction of Kholinar included some thunderclasts too. And now at Thaylen City. More data points for @MonsterMetroid's maps? Fins and Arrowheads? That sounds a lot like Mandras to me. You may just be onto something there @Wit Beyond Measure While I don't believe that thunderclasts are formed with corrupted Mandra spren, there's definitely a lot more to them than we've seen so far.

@Dreamstorm, that's a pretty good breakdown. However, as the person who initially argued that we won't see a new champion, I need to say that I don't subscribe to option 4. The contest is not null and void, but very much in play, and the reason why Odium can no longer confront Dalinar directly, as explicitly stated in the Taravangian quote. Of the options you provided, I actually also believe the most likely scenario is Option 3, but I should point out that there are actually a few possibilities here: - Option 3a: The contest never started/is on pause. The contest is still open and Odium can be forced into the contest at any time, and since Odium doesn’t have another groomed champion this is a very risky proposition which Odium should avoid. - Option 3b: The contest never started/is on pause. The contest is still open and Odium can be forced into the contest at any time, but Odium realises that Dalinar is already stronger than any champion he could ever put forward, and is therefore avoiding a contest he cannot win. - Option 3c: The contest never started/is on pause. The contest is still open and Odium can be forced into the contest at any time, and since his chosen champion defied him, Odium must fight in the contest himself, which puts him at risk not only of being defeated in battle, but destroyed outright. While this risk might be low, it is significant enough for him to avoid the contest and rely on his agents. I'm not sure we have enough information to tell which of these is true at the moment. In my original post I effectively argued for 3c, but I agree that perhaps it is possible that Odium may still be able to groom a champion, and that perhaps that champion may be capable of defeating Dalinar. But Odium was surprised, and perhaps scared by Dalinar's unexpected ascension, and regardless of which of the above scenarios is correct, he now realises that there is a non-zero risk of losing to Dalinar. This is why Odium has made the choice to go back to the longer but safer plan of besieging Roshar with his Unmade, his voidbringers, and his other agents. That's why I don't think we'll see another champion.

I still believe, like @.S.A.M.K.M above, that the thunderclasts are Fused that have been twisted so much of the centuries that they can no longer bond with the parshendi. We don't have a clear confirmation of this, only Venli's observation that the thunderclasts were formed by spirits who appeared to her as "two larger masses of energy—souls so warped, so mangled, they didn’t seem singer at all." The implication here is that Venli believed that they were the souls of singers (or parshendi), but twisted almost beyond recognition. I don't think we need to invoke another explanation unless you have some other evidence that suggests they were not originally parshendi souls. My apologies @Rainier! I somehow missed this post! Didn't mean to leave you unacknowledged for making this point explicitly before me.

Thanks for putting all the effort in to pull all of these disparate pieces of information about gemhearts and their consequences, @Wit Beyond Measure. There are a lot of different paths to follow here, but I want to focus on Thunderclasts for a moment, using your original paragraph about them as a jumping off point: So the stone has gemhearts that, when inhabited by Voidspren, transform the stone into something else. No wonder Szeth's people aren't stonewalkers, right? Does stone have other forms? I initially took your statement that "the stone has gemhearts" to be an error. Surely it's more likely that the stone contains naturally occurring gemstones (not gemhearts), which the Fused can bond with to create the thunderclast? But on reflection, perhaps 'gemheart' is the correct word after all. Specifically the buried gemhearts of dead chasmfiends. As you quoted above, we already have Adolin's direct observation that the thunderclast "looks like a chasmfiend. The head, at least. The body was vaguely like a thick human skeleton." Could this resemblance be because thunderclasts are formed when the Fused inhabit the buried gemheart of a dead chasmfiend? To be honest, it was only after reading this thoughtful and well researched post by @MonsterMetroid that I made the connection between chasmfiend gemhearts and thunderclasts. MonsterMetroid's post takes this WoB, which discusses the possibility of gemheart "fossil beds", and expands on it, attempting to map the likely distribution of fossil gemhearts on Roshar. The main takeaway is that there are unknown numbers of gemhearts locked in the stone and crem of Roshar, and that their distribution is uneven, but potentially predictable. So, the stone of Roshar DOES contain gemhearts, and these gemhearts are still 'functional' enough to be worth mining by humans for use in soulcasting. They should therefore also be usable by the Fused, assuming that the Fused have the power to bond them. That's still a pretty big assumption, though, and we don't have any direct in-world evidence for this, beyond Adolin's observations above. We don't have any clear WoB's either, although there are a couple of (mis-)statements from Brandon which, when read with this idea in mind, seem suspicious to me. The first comes from the WoB mentioned above: Brandon was totally about to dish something there, but caught himself. I can't help wondering whether it was something along the lines of "Yeah, that's why the Fused can make thunderclasts." Pure speculation on my part of course -- he really could have been about to say anything. But this second quote hints at a direct connection between chasmfiends and thunderclasts. The quote has already been referenced in this thread by @hoiditthroughthegrapevine : Once again, Brandon seems to hold himself back from revealing some detail, before stumbling around for the more ambiguous "in-world inspiration" line. Now, take a moment and try to finish the sentence "Thunderclasts have chasmfiend ..." Maybe Brandon was going to go on to say "thunderclasts have chasmfiend gemhearts", and maybe he wasn't, but it sounds awfully plausible to me. I certainly can't think of any other word that fits better. Assuming that this is correct, and thunderclasts do use buried chasmfiend gemhearts, then @MonsterMetroid's maps of gemheart locations in Roshar may have very big implications for future battles, given that natural process will ensure that some areas (such as the Purelake) are likely to accumulate higher densities of gemhearts over time.

This is one post which i agree with 100%, Stormlight is still young with 7 more books yet to come. We will have many more significant character's being introduced in rosher Let's go easy on the fandom. It's difficult to build theories around characters we haven't met yet. And, anyway, when you look at what has happened so far in WoR and OB, nearly all of the characters who "mattered" in those books were in fact known to us previously. So, assuming someone bonds with the Sibling within the next two books, the odds are actually pretty good that our future Bondsmith is going to someone we've met already.

I want to question these assumptions about Dalinar and what happened between him and Odium at the end of Oathbringer, before making any speculations about who OC might be. I agree with Melovespie that Dalinar WAS Odium's champion. It was no red herring. Odium had groomed Dalinar from a young age to be an ultimate warrior, slave to his passions, addicted to the Thrill, and so desperate for relief from his spiritual suffering that he would gladly hand over responsibility for his actions to Odium in return for the moral numbness we see Moash descending into. The greatest victory at the climax of OB was Dalinar's ability to resist Odium's influence and refuse to become his champion -- an outcome that Odium had thought was a fait accompli. Dalinar was able to defy this with the help of Cultivation, who, by temporarily taking away the memories of his wife, gave him time to grow as a person and develop the mental and emotional strength to face up to the monstrous things he'd done in the past and take ownership of them. Dalinar saw something familiar in the eyes of OC because he recognised something of himself in them. But that might not literally mean that he recognised his own physical eyes (or the eyes of someone he knew, or was related to). Throughout OB, Dalinar notices the Thrill in the eyes of people he is fighting, and recognises it with familiarity to his own experience. For example, in Kalanor: If it is the familiar effects of the Thrill that Dalinar recognises in the eyes of OC, then it doesn't necessarily follow that Odiums next Champion needs to be someone that Dalinar knows. Furthermore, as Melovespie pointed out, we need to question whether Odium will even be able to choose a new Champion. Recall the meeting between Taravangian and Odium at the very end of OB: This makes clear that Odium cannot choose another champion. Dalinar ensured that Odium's chosen champion (Dalinar) never actually manifested, and so Odium is now compelled to fight as his own champion. Which means that all of this speculation about who might be the (next) champion is entirely irrelevant.

Clearly you've never been married! I'm joking of course. It was a throw away line. But don't count it out either. There is a loooooong way to go in this series. I think you need to step back a little and look at the long game Brandon is playing. He's managing a big cast, and you can't have all your major and supporting characters dealing with deep existential crises all at the same time, all the time. Take a moment and just consider how much more dark and depressing Oathbringer could have been if, in addition to Dalinar's flashbacks, Shallan's fracturing personalities, Kaladin's battle freeze, and Bridge Four's various personal tribulations, Adolin was also plumbing the depths of his soul, or perhaps the depths of Urithiru's dungeons. Having supporting characters like Adolin help to keep the books emotionally balanced. Adolin has been the stable one so far. The foil for Brandon to use to contrast the experiences of the Radiants. He is the Ron Weasley to Roshar's team of glowing Harry Potters. And in each book he has played a strong supporting role to Dalinar, Kaladin, and Shallan, often when they need it most. Has he been too good to be true? Maybe, but boy Brandon sure has made a point of having all the characters comment how likeable, and earnest, and just all-round perfect he is. It all sounds like a big build up to me. There's something coming for Adolin, and it's going to have an impact on everyone around him. Having said all that, I agree that the whole Sadeas murder plot really fizzled. I didn't mind too much, because there was so much else going on, but given that it was THE cliffhanger to end WoR, I thought it deserved more fallout for Adolin than simply some guilty hand wringing for a few weeks.

Dude just got married. He's got plenty of trials ahead of him, don't worry.

I'm not prepared to guess who Taln was before the Oathpact, and what his relationship was with the other 9. A high ranking soldier seems likely. But as to why they needed to add a tenth person, I figured that has to do with Odium and Honor's associations with the numbers 9 and 10. It's not by chance that modern Alethkar is ruled by ten High Princes -- ten is a sacred number in the Vorin religion, which follows Honor. So the Alethi social structure is built around the number ten, with ten Princedoms, ruling over a society broken into ten dahns of lighteyes, and ten nahns of darkeyes. However, when humans arrived on Roshar they worshipped Odium, so the number nine would have been significant. It makes sense that their society would have constructed their leadership around groups of nine. Whether this was true for the entire society (nine kingdoms), or just for the Oathpact (nine members of the royalty), it was probably no accident that the group who negotiated the pact with Honor was made up of nine people. However, since the Oathpact is of Honor, they needed a tenth Herald to satisfy him. The question is, did Honor make this clear to the group, giving them the chance to recruit Taln, or have Taln volunteer? Or was Taln swept up in the pact because he just happened to be the closest person in proximity when the Oathpact was formed, and Honor's magic went to work? This might have happened if he was a General, or perhaps a bodyguard, who was important enough to be 'in the room' when the deal went down. And it seems to ring true with the fact that Taln was never meant to be one of the Heralds.

I see this much more as a success by Sanderson. He was able to build a highly complex character, who readers came to empathise with and cheer for, despite all of his failings, and who was tragically killed at his moment of redemption. The very fact that you feel so betrayed proves what a success it was for Sanderson: his job to make you feel a wide range of emotions, including betrayal and grief at the lives lost. You grieved for Elhokar for the unfairness of his death, and in your grief you expressed a sense of betrayal. This is exactly how many people respond to grief in their own lives, by looking for someone, or something to blame. Death is not always meaningful, death is not always deserved, or honorable, or redemptive, and we rebel at that truth. You say that Kaladin sacrificed him. He did not. He could not save him. To say that it was nothing to him is unfair, as his death at the hands of Moash was clearly one of the major reasons he froze in battle. His death affected him greatly and may cast a very long shadow on Kaladin. You say that the other characters did not mourn him, but this is also unfair, given that they were on the run and thrust into a completely disorienting and dangerous new realm that they did not understand and could not rest or feel safe in. Yes, Sanderson could have paused to gives us a scene of grief, but I rather feel that it is truer to Shallan and Adolin's characters that this grief be pushed aside until they are free to examine their feelings more deeply (which may mean, never for Shallan, and for Adolin, once they are back in safety and he does not feel a duty to protect the others). I have not read further, but I daresay Elhokar will be given the farewell he deserves in due time. People are mentioning G.R.R. Martin because he is famous for killing off major characters, but this is one of the things that makes his books so enthralling -- the stakes are always high because you cannot count on the assumption that the heroes will survive. And more than this, we know as readers that the world and the events are much bigger than any one character. This isn't some cheap writer's trick, designed just for shock value. This is one of the elements that give Martin's (and Sanderson's) books such huge scope, because there are many heroes, many villains, and many characters who are both hero and villain. Yes, we will feel betrayed by the losses of characters we love, but we will also value their lives much higher, and cheer their successes all the more. Sure, Sanderson isn't Martin, but I welcome this aspect of Martin's writing into Sanderson's books, because it makes them all the richer.

Actually, killing Eshonai could make excellent narrative sense, if you step back and look at the narrative from a broader perspective. This is a classic George R.R. Martin trick - make a character appear central to the apparent narrative arc, make you get attached to them, and then kill them off just when you thought things were getting interesting. It's a great trick because it makes the reader realise that the no one character is entirely essential to the events unfolding in the world, and the reader can't fall back on the safe assumption that narrative convention will protect their favourite characters. The narrative moves on, but it isn't necessarily tied to a small set of individual character arcs - rather, it is passed like a torch from character to character as they play their part. As many people have already pointed out, including @kiapet in the quote above, Eshonai was a perfect character - one that both the readers, and Venli herself, had huge faith in. The very fact that so many people were certain that she was going to be a Willshaper, and the fact that Venli believed she would always be there to keep her in line, and even the fact that Ulim thought she'd eventually break out of Stormform, all show why her death is such a powerful narrative turning point. For us readers, our assumptions about how the Listeners might break out from the influence of the voidbringers have to be reconsidered. But most importantly, for Venli, Eshonai's death may have given her the nudge she needed to realise the mistake she has made, and escape stormform herself. From the narrative perspective, Eshonai was the perfect hero and sister, so that her death could have the power to propel the other characters around her to action and transformation. Thus the Listener's narrative torch is passed from Eshonai to Venli, who may seem far less qualified to be the hero we pictured, but could nevertheless be the one we cheer for in the end.

Wow. Great theory. Reading it, I had that "of course!" moment that you get when you hear the answer to a difficult puzzle or riddle, which seems obvious in retrospect. All the information was there in front of us, you were just able to put them together in the right way. If anyone else has managed to state this so clearly, I haven't seen it. Big upvote! One thing that makes me feel like this is a correct interpretation is the way that it elegantly explains several different questions at once. How do voidbringers make the jump? Why do the desolations occur when they do? What is the (post-shard) purpose of the high storms? How did the Listeners create the Everstorm and how did it bring the desolation? It also might explain why the Everstorm was described in WoR by the Stormfather as something "new" but of ancient origins (paraphrasing as I can't check the text). Assuming that the Listeners were able to fuse with Stormspren and create Stormform in previous desolations, then this would be something with old origins. But the concentration of enough Stormform to build up enough investiture to create the Everstorm would be new. Odium would not have needed or thought to create an Everstorm before because the Oathpact guaranteed a chance to bring regular Desolations - he just had to focus on breaking the Heralds. I'm going to assume he only had to break one Herald each time to trigger a new desolation. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, and so Odium would only have to break the weakest Herald each time. But this time was different and Odium needed to find a different way to create a desolation: 1: Nine of the Heralds broke the Oathpact and remained on Roshar. Assuming as I do above, that Odium only needed to break the weakest Herald out of the 10 in the past, then having only Taln to torture might actually hold him longer. If Taln is more resistant to torture than the others (not an unreasonable assumption) then he'd take much longer to break. 2: If the Recreance occured, at least in part, because the Radiants realised they'd unwittingly concentrated enough investiture to create a perpendicularity that Odium could use, then it's possible that Odium will have learnt from that and realised that he could mimic this process with voidspren. He could then have developed a plan to build up enough stormspren on Roshar to create the Everstorm. 3: He probably needed time to build up enough stormspren in Roshar to accomplish this. I love the description of the Radiants "leaving the door ajar" for a slow trickle of voidspren to enter Roshar. The Recreance could have been triggered once the Radiants finally noticed this 'void-leak'. The enslavement of the Listeners may thus have been a knee-jerk reaction to the fear that there may already be enough voidspren on Roshar to start a desolation, if they all fused with the Listeners. 4: the Recreance and the enslavement of the Listeners will have temporarily stopped Odium from tranfering more voidspren to Roshar, and limited his ability to fuse enough Listeners. He needed either A) to send more stormspren to Roshar, and/or B ) convince some of the remaining free Listeners to fuse with those Stormspren, despite the fact that these Listeners had turned away from their "old gods". He thus began a long campaign to create the right conditions for one or both of these things to happen. 5: The Alethi become more warlike thanks to the influence of the Thrill. Gavilar and Amaram were somehow infected with the idea that they needed to bring back a desolation to refound the KR. Certain spren begin to interpret certain events as signs that they need to bond with humans and create new Radiants. We don't know enough about these events yet, but it's a solid bet that Odium had a hand in seeding them. The end result was the return of surgebinders, and a war with the Listeners that ultimately caused them to fuse with stormspren in desperation.