Thought

Quite right, xbauks, that a splinter can be willfully and peacefully created (the Divine Breaths being the most clear and prominent specimen we've had thus far). However, the Stormfather says that he's the remains of Honor, indicating that if he is a splinter, then it was one that, at the very least, was created at Honor's demise. However, slivers have previously been specifically defined as human and as a sort of conceptual opposite of splinters. A splinter that held a shards power would, seemingly, just be an unclaimed shard. GreyPilgrim, Odium seems far more concerns with Shards than people. If he had a choice between killing a Shardholder but leaving the Shard intact and shattering the shard but leaving the shardholder alive, it seems likely that he'd choose the latter. After all, on Sel he left humans alive, as well as Seons and Skaze: without intact shards, they just weren't important enough for him to care.

As a quick note, on the "void"binding chart, it sort of looks like whatever these creatures are has been replaced with a gemheart. If those are Larkin, then that might be a meaningful connection.

Since it wasn't said before, allow me to suggest that Syl's helped Kaladin kill before. As we saw with Pattern and Shallan, it is possible for a nahal bond to wax and wayne over time. It may be that Kaladin had a stronger connection with Syl in the past. Additionally, as we see in WoR, much of Kaladin's natural martial skill comes from that bond.

I would like to suggest that, when Tanavast died, his cognitive aspect persisted (much like Kelsier's did). As his cognitive aspect no longer held the power of Honor, it became a sliver. Because slivers have residual power, and because he was not just a cognitive aspect, he was thus close enough to a spren to be able to bond with humans. This fits with the Stormfather calling itself a sliver, and saying that it is a spren of sorts (rather than just a straight-up spren). It doesn't answer the question, though, of what spren the Bondsmiths joined with prior to Tanavast's demise.

Perhaps I have misunderstood it, but I think we have WoB on this: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2383-qa-with-brandon-sanderson/page-5#entry42190

The fact that the things that Elhokar saw went away when Kaladin was around is probably a stronger argument that these things were voidspren than Pattern's insult is. However, we do know that cryptics and honorspren aren't the most congenial of bedfellows, perhaps Syl just drove them away... yet, Pattern doesn't run away when Kaladin is around, so I doubt we can attribute the disappearance of these things to mere sprenish incivility. Elhokar's description of them did remind me of Syl's description of the red-lightning stormspren that created the Everstorm. The fact that Elhokar seems rather adept at causing others to hate him might actually be an Odius sign.

As we know that much of Rosharian life was inspired by tide pools, might we look to our own oceans for the answer? In short, there are several sea creatures that alternate between sessile and mobile forms (as well as ones that alternate between female and male genders). Many jellyfish, for example, start life as bottom-dwelling pylops that then release the medusa form. Usually, shifts between mobile and stationary forms are related to reproduction: thus it is likely that the final stage of the chull life is the stage that produces young. And, if it is like most sea creatures, a single "parent" can produce thousands of young, so it would behoove most owners to try to prevent Chull from reaching this stage. This would explain why chulls are a viable food source: beasts of burden are usually too valuable to kill. However, if they reproduce so easily, that probably gives a very large surplus population, and so, as they say, "meat's back on the menu, boys." EDIT: To note, as senescence involves aging and the deterioration of function, a mobile creature turning into a semen&egg garden would still fit the dictionary definition of the word.

To my understanding, the term "active sliver" is a bit of an contradiction in terms: isn't a Sliver someone who had held a Shard in the past, but no longer? The Lord Ruler, for example, was a sliver, as was Kelseir and Vin, but not Sazed. Wouldn't an "active sliver" just be the person currently holding the shard (and hence, the Shardholder)? Or am I misunderstanding you. It seems that there is no particular limit to the number of slivers of a particular shard that there could be, provided that each person was willing to give up the power. Of course, a problem with the Stormfather being a sliver is that means he is (or was, at one point) human, whereas Spren are splinters, and thus never human, and as far as we know only spren can bind with humans.

First, has anyone else noticed that the unmade have fairly lovecraftian names? Re-Shephir, Nergaoul, Moelach, Yelig-nar (ia! ia! the black wind of the woods with a thousand young! ia!) Second, if the symmetry we see is the result of Honor's purpose, then perhaps we have flipped things around. That is, Honor might be responding to Odium (trying to keep the fight fair), whereas Odium keeps trying to tip things in his favor. Or to put it another way, Odium might have created ten "Harbringers," honor responded by creating ten Heralds, then Odium made three more. If such an interpretation is correct, then Odium's, not Honor's, number might be 10. And finally, third, it is interesting that the Parshendi gods are called splinters of a soul, whereas the Stormfather calls himself a sliver. Honor seems to be big on getting champions, whereas from what we know of Odium, it's unlikely that he'd ever trust his power to another.

While the body does indeed form various and sundry masses, those always do one of two things: 1) nothing or 2) something bad. It is the useful development that would be so abnormal. Though I would agree, as noted, that there's a good chance that it would be useful to artificially implant a gem.

I will only agree once we find out that he is weak to something entirely ridiculous, like puppies or a number 2 pencil. But the similarities are indeed disturbing.

Sadly enough I, at first, read "bandolier" as "bandoneon," and thus imagined Jasnah with an accordion. Second: Well, to turn that around on you, there is no clear reason for Sanderson to refer to it as "a kind of leather bandolier" if it was actually just a leather bandolier. Anywho, if Jasnah worldhopped, I'd suggest that Braize is the most likely place for her to have hopped to (and a planet with Odium on it seems ripe for needing gun-like weapons). Also, there's an unsourced note in the Coppermind that Braize might have some chapters taking place on it in later Stormlight books.

I would suggest that you are confusing Highspren with Honorspren. Or in other words, what is just isn't always what is right. Syl, for example, said that she isn't concerned with laws but rather with what is right. To use D&D terminology, Windrunners and Honorspren appear to be Chaotic Good, whereas Highspren and Skybreakers seem to be Lawful Neutral. Szeth isn't culpable because he was following his laws, whereas the Stone Shaman are responsible because they violated laws (making someone truthless who was actually truthful). This might mean that King T can't be approached, because so far he hasn't clearly broken any laws. On a totally different note, assuming that Nightblood will be able to feed of Stormlight instead of Breath (I'm assuming that Szeth will have to learn how to hack the system, at least a little), then I really hope we get to see NB pulled out of its sheath during a Highstorm. That could probably kill an entire army right there.

The Stormfather's use of the term "sliver" is very curious and given how careful Sanderson has been about such terms in the past, I would be hesitant to ignore the significance so easily. If the Stormfather is a Sliver, then he can not be a splinter (aka, spren), and vice versa. However, he also binds with Dalinar to make the latter a Knight's Radiant, which is a rather sprenish thing to do. Yet if the Stormfather is the Bondsmith spren (and it is implied that, yes indeed, all bondsmiths had been tied to him), and the Bondsmiths lived prior to Honor's demise, then how could the Stormfather be a splinter of Tanavast created when Odium killed him? And what of the other super-spren that we're introduced to (Nightwatcher, the one responsible for the Thrill, and the one responsible for Death Rattles)? We have a lot of conflicting terms concepts here, so I doubt we're meant to find a simple answer.

A human getting a gemheart would be a fairly drastic physiological transformation: the nearest equivalent I can think of in the Cosmer would be Steel Inquisitors (can a gem carved into a spike be used for Hemalurgy?). That said, I wouldn't be surprised if we come across a surgebinder who pulls a Miles Hundredlives on us (might be useful having a few gems implanted in you, no?)

Has anyone pointed out yet that there are 10 continental divides? (and that the three greater divides form a very very squat H) And I am not sure if this would count (as it relies on in-book knowledge as well as the map), but Purelake should be a salt-lake, yet is isn't described that way (indeed, it should also be crem-filled, as there are no mountains to give it a rain shadow. Finally, I would guess that Icewater (lower left) was founded/discovered by people from Alethkar, as was Purelake, as both of those locations follow what otherwise seems to be an Alethkar-ish naming convention (the "name things what they are" tradition, like Unclaimed Hills, Shattered Plains, and Frostlands) On a different train of thought, has it ever been established where magnetic north is in relation to polar north?

Some of this would depend on if a chasmfiend's shell conducts stormlight or not. That is, a gem in a building in a highstorm doesn't get charged, but one set outside does. So, is being at the heart of a chasmfiend "inside" enough to prevent a gem from getting infused? Of course, as we see from Kaladin and Szeth, beings can directly absorb stormlight, so it might be less that the gemheart is getting a charge as the entire creature is (thus, I guess that this would make the gemheart more of a bladder). All that said, it seems like Shallan or some other scholar we have seen would have been ridiculously interested in the fact that gemhearts glowed with stormlight when they were removed.

I saw this on facebook for Brandon's birthday and thought it worth sharing here:

Oh, good point *goes back to add spoiler tags, promptly feels like River Song* Yes, almost as if they had spikes in them that would allow a dark god to control them... A thousand years is definitely a good record for a god who was combating a captive god with the aid of a different god and supported by non-humans, small distances, and a fanatical but small human force (that was still corrupt: it's a bit of good fortune that the corruption didn't work in Ruin's favor). And even at that, a single year of active looking on the behalf of puny humans found the stash. Sorry, I thought the fact that we saw only one honest administrator the book made it obvious: the Grands, m'boy-o. Oh sure, the first time a Grand goes to a guard and tells them that their life depends on extra caution, the guard will give a hundred and ten percent. The second time? Less likely, but still good. The thousandth? It's not a question of how often there is a Forger to imprison, it's a question of how often power is abused. If a Grand knows that s/he has to do X in order to be sure to get quality, then they'll do X, until X has no meaning by the time they need it to keep a Forger imprisoned. Take a look at the guards watching over Shai: they were ordered not to talk to her, so what did they do? They talked to her! Curse them and their knowledge that they don't really have to provide the service that the Grands want of them. As for 911, I feel the comparison is actually quite apt, and would explain further, but I am uncomfortable doing so since you had brought your mother into the mix. I feel like extrapolation my position would be a prickly process: while I wouldn't be attacking her, a discussion of the underlying behaviors could be interpreted as apply to her, and thus be insulting. We're agreed on the first (unless the smith was bribed to do just that), I suspect Shai could have gotten away with the second after she had befriended her guards, and the third is a red herring: the jailer can check every link and still not find the flaw that will let a Forger escape. What do you think it's going to look like, a big ol sign that says "break here"? How are they supposed to be able to tell that one link has way too much carbon in it, or that one was crafted poorly enough that there's a bubble in it?

Avast, there be Mistborn Spoilers ahead, ahar! Exactly. If you want something safe, you have to use guards that are inhuman, like the Kandra. Of course, even then in the end the secret got out and every last bead was burned up. A shame, that. I guess there really is no one you can trust completely. If people see that there is a need to double check a good in an emergency (like if they have a forger in their midst), then that system would be taken advantage of even when forgers aren't around. 911 is for emergencies only, yes? Misdials can account for around 4% of 911 calls, non-emergency calls can be around 40-50%. Prank calls are harder to track, though often get lumped in with non-emergency calls, so I'll leave it at that. What's the point? If something exists, people will abuse it. If there's abuse, there's the possibility of indifference. People are fools: any plan that involves them can't be fool proof. Even mundane prisoners can escape, and a forger ain't no mundane prisoner. The Rose Empire isn't even sure what a forger can actually do, and you can't defend against what you don't know. To be clear, what you're proposing would be hypothetically possible. It'd just be impossible in practice (much like your suggestion of amputation: causing it should be possible in theory, but not in practice).

I wanted to respond to this sooner rather than later, since the error was mine. Confused by your confusion, I went back to read this very particular chain of exchanges. I see I had assumed you were being more fool-proof than you were, apparently. When you said that that the Emperor would have an unbreakable rule made that things are checked meticulously, and then when you reiterated that sentiment when I noted that familiarity breeds indifference, I had assumed you were trying to convey that there was a magical force behind that dictate. Aka, forging. I totally read forging into your comments, but see that you didn't mean them that way. However, now that I see that I was in error, my original, off-handed comment will suffice: familiarity breeds indifference. It doesn't matter if your the Rose Emperor or the Lord Ruler. People don't work that way, and as long as you rely on people, a forger can take advantage of that fact. This is why surgical sponges get left in people, or typos left in a book.

*Kurk, “Romanticism” doesn’t mean “Power of Love.” Romanticism was an intellectual movement that emphasized emotion as a valid means of experiencing the world. If you give weight to anyone’s gut reaction, you’re engaging in a romantic mindset. Also, it held to the idea that truth might be subjective. Or, in other words, that a window isn’t just a window, it’s how people think about and perceive windows. Just moments after Shai thinks she might be being too emotion, she engages in more romantic perspectives as she tries to describe forging to Gatona. “Meant to be” is a particular verb tense called the subjunctive. This tense used to represent unrealities. If the stained glass aspect was part of the window’s cognitive reality, then it would be inappropriate to apply the subjunctive tense. Since the subjunctive was used, we know it represents an unreality. Or, in other words, a wish, a hope, a desire, a fear, a prediction about the future, etc. As for the directionality of change, you’re suggestion goes against our prior conversation about feruchemical shuttling. Store an attribute, and a physical gets stored in a non-physical realm. Tap it, and the attribute in the non-physical realm affects the physical realm. Because we know that feruchemy doesn’t draw from a shard, and that it’s end neutral, if magic is needed to transfer an effect from one realm to another, feruchemy should be end-negative, because it would be forced to expend some of the user’s power to fuel the transference. Forgery uses power to affect the cognitive aspect of something, and then the nature of the realms takes over for making the cognitive affect the physical. If this is not true, then Feruchemy, too, would have to use power to transfer an attribute back to the individual’s present physical state. To think that change is limited to one direction naturally… why, that’s just physicocentrism! As for why you should be disagreeing with my narrative flow model, you really shouldn’t be, given that I’m right. But presumably you’re asking why we have opposite sides on the matter? Basically, my stance is that Shai has to get the narrative flow right, and that the specifics are merely the rocks and shores that Shai can use to figure out that flow. That there is a flow, a movement, a momentum, means that there will be a force pressing against something that’s trying to swim upstream. Say, someone attempting to remove an arm. That’s very against the current. In turn, your stance has been that there’s no current for a forging to go against. It’s silly, I know. I can understand why you’d feel like you should agree with me instead. I discount the changing of a specific event as important because it’s secondary. In making a normal forgery, Shai is essentially trying to change the course of a river. The boulder she throws into the river is entirely forgettable: how that boulder changes the flow of that river, that’s what’s important. For the emperor, she’s basically trying to create a river that flows in a similar enough pattern to the original for it to be mistaken as the same thing. Becoming Emperor is like identifying that there’s a bend in the river: not that useful, until you can figure out if the river bends to the left or right. This gets back to your original idea about amputation. You proposed a simple event (a guillotine that could have cut off your hand and, in a forged reality, did). My objection is that the event is meaningless outside the context of the river. You can’t throw in a pebble and expect the river to start flowing uphill. The “dueling forgers” bit is the logical extension of your supposition. Even if an imperial forger could make it so that the cell endured a high degree of care, what happens with the imprisoned forger applies a counter-stamp saying that someone was careless and mistakes were made? It’s largely a side issue, since we don’t know what would happen, but it’s hasty to say that your solution to a forger escaping is foolproof when we don’t know how stamps interact. As for Shai not being able to use the bed: misdirection is a key element of a con. Calling attention to the thing you want someone to ignore is a really bad idea. Perhaps the guards wouldn’t notice that the incredibly solid, perfectly comfortable and silent bed that Shai’s been sleeping on for the last few months is suddenly making an awful lot of creaks and groans. But people notice things that are unusual. Also, it’s hard for someone to crash through the bed with her on it. Especially if she’d like to not fall to the storage room below with them. Thus, Shai has to keep herself off the bed in order to use it as part of her trap. Being caught asleep on it would really defeat the purpose of everything. Additionally, she cut the mattress. Even if the bedframe was still useable, what she’s done to the mattress might have taken it beyond that threshold (which was sort of my point about the mattress). The fact that Shai can’t use the bed fits with both the supposition that the bed would collapse under her weight and the supposition that using it would reveal her hand. As for the mattress specifically, the question is quite simple: why didn’t she forge it instead of cutting? Even though she got away with it, why take the chance? Given that cutting appears to be the risker of the two methods, it’s odd that she went with it. Assuming that she’s a rational actor, we must suppose that she had a reason to not forge it. Returning to the cell, even Shai indicates she didn’t think she could have actually escaped. So the fact that she blusters and claims that she can, that shouldn’t be taken as actual evidence of ability or how the magic system works. As for the floor, really? How many times do you test the floor under your bed? When you go to a hotel, how many times do you test the floor under those beds? I can find no evidence to suggest that prison guards check the floor under the beds before putting a new prisoner in a cell. Ultimately it’s not so much a question of what you find acceptable or unacceptable. That’s just an appeal to emotion. Where the evidence leads, that’s where I’ll go.

I thought it would be worthwhile to note that it looks like Shai planned to use Zu's horse from the beginning. When she was taken out of her original prison, she tried to strike up a conversation with Zuzu about his horse (and how he knew his animals). While not much, given how good Shai is, it seems likely that, combined with palace records, she'd be able to make a solid stamp for the horse ahead of time. That would have allowed her to ride it out of the palace without raising suspicion, as well.

Ninja'ed you with an edit to my post

Day Three: "Shai raised an eyebrow. She took her mallet and chisel, then brought them down at an angle on the embossed rim of the vase's seal. The seal resisted--there was a force to it, trying to stay in place-- but the blow broke through. The rest of the seal popped up, troughs vanishing, the seal becoming simple ink and losing its powers. The colors of the vase faded immediately, bleeding to plain grey, and its shape warped... without the stamp, the vase was a horrid piece." Day Ninety-Eight "As soon as no one was directly in sight, she turned over one of those horrid urns and broke the seal on the bottom. It transformed back into a blank clay version of itself." EDIT: I noticed that Sanderson uses the British spelling of "grey." I knew I liked him. EDIT EDIT: Aw, I see now. It looked like you were commenting on forged object not reverting, ever. On a fourth read, I realized that you probably meant that when she breaks a forged object, she doesn't mention that the pieces revert. Of course, the two prime example (her bed and the emperor's door) start as wood and end as wood, regardless of if the forge held or not. Shai's in a hurry, that's a small detail, and isn't something she's likely to notice or think about in any situation. EDIT EDIT EDIT: Wait... that means I'm agreeing with Kurk's last post. Curse you, Phantom!