cometaryorbit

Hmm, would illusions have atium shadows? Atium is kind of a special case, but it was a relatively normal (though carefully hoarded) ability of Mistborn during TLR's rule. Atium is fast burning so they probably couldn't use it in the entire fight with a Radiant... but I don't know that using illusions to surprise-Shardblade a Mistborn is going to work, with the combination of bronze (or maybe copper*) and bursts of atium. (Shallan's giant army of illusions in OB was perpendicularity fueled, I don't think a Lightweaver can have "a billion illusions" up for long in normal circumstances.) Even if illusions won't work, they still have healing at least as good as Gold Feruchemy, the physical grace/dexterity/speed enhancements of Stormlight (which are probably comparable to Pewter Allomancy, though the strength enhancement seems less than Pewter's), and an one-hit-kill Shardblade. So they definitely still have a good chance. But the Mistborn's sensory abilities and much better mobility is really powerful here. Lightweavers' powers (as opposed to say Windrunners/Skybreakers) are not particularly well adapted to fighting Mistborn. (If the Mistborn is later era when atium isn't generally available but duralumin and electrum are, there's also the possibility of a duralumin boosted Rioting which might be pretty incapacitating to many Radiants due to their high rate of psychological issues. Electrum shadows might also help the Mistborn ignore illusions, but I think that takes unusual degree of training - Vin, with her exceptional Allomantic intuition, didn't see it as useful for anything but countering atium.) I think Vin would defeat a Lightweaver (certainly with atium and likely without), but she's got double strength bronze, very high paranoia, slightly above average Allomantic strength, and exceptional mobility skills (horseshoe flight). *copperclouds don't block Lashings, but Lashings set off Odium's screamer spren, where Lightweavings don't. So a coppercloud still might interfere with illusions. I doubt it would just destroy them completely, because I think Lightweaving uses actual Physical light and sound - it's not a purely Cognitive effect - but it might still mess them up.

Yes, Ruin totally did, but I'd consider direct intervention by a Shard very much a special case- just because a Shard can do it doesn't mean it's not really hard.

In HoA, Vin burns pewter with duralumin to try to get rid of the unconsciousness drug/poison she's been given. It doesn't work. But do we know if pewter helps with poisons more generally? I kind of feel like there's a reference somewhere to using it to handle more alcohol than usual, but I might be making that up. If so, did it fail because the duralumin pewter only gave her more resistance rather than removing the poison (so once it ran out there was no protection)?

Yeah, Vin is somewhat stronger than a normal Allomancer of her era, but not massively so like Elend. Ham is likely still stronger than her with pewter on (his much higher natural strength likely more than compensates for her larger pewter boost). But her much smaller body mass means she can super-jump with that strength in a way he can't. Pewter Allomancy adds a fixed amount to your natural strength, so the stronger you are naturally the stronger you are with a-pewter. So if you can lift 100lb normally and it adds +150lb you could lift 250lb with a-pewter; if you could lift 200lb normally you could lift 350lb with a-pewter. It's not a multiplier like Feruchemy. The x2 burning/x3 flaring WoB was specifically a question about how much pewter Feruchemy you'd have to tap to match pewter Allomancy; it's really more like +1 average human strength burning/+2 average human strength flaring. Tarson, specifically, is a pewter *savant*, so he's going to get much more out of his a-pewter than most Thugs or Mistborn. That added on to his higher natural strength from being a koloss-blood ... he'll be *really* strong. (A-pewter also does a lot more than just muscle strength. It also boosts toughness - not just structural strength (eg harder to break bones) but resistance to things like cold weather - as well as movement speed and dexterity/grace. It also helps with healing, though on a "medical recovery" timescale not a heal-wounds-instantly one like gold Feruchemy. So pewter savants are likely very powerful. But HoA epigraphs say people usually die in the process of becoming one.)

I actually wonder how much savantism is an on/off thing vs a kind of spectrum. Some Allomancers can do things that aren't generally possible without being savants (Kelsier spinning a metal bar rather than just being limited to center-of-mass Pushes/Pulls; he's not a savant or above normal era 1 strength). I wonder if that's a first step in that direction. Breeze uses Soothing so often - maybe almost instinctively- could that be the first step toward whatever the downside of brass savantism is?

Yeah, but that's his moment of death. It would have been Splintered very soon if Kelsier hadn't used the orb.

I think (Warbreaker/Stormlight spoilers) My concern with Ruin-Allomancy is that switching power sources for Invested Arts is meant to be hard; I think it would have been mentioned (say in the HoA epigraphs or TLM) if it worked that way.

I think loss rates with high rates of tapping become very extreme (huge diminishing returns). Gold is hard to measure, but on things we can clearly measure, the only two examples of super high multipliers (Wax heavier than a building & supersonic Marasi) appear to have burned through storage in a very extreme way. I don't think Sazed at the end of WoA is more than say x30 strength. I doubt the largest koloss are more than that (if a base koloss is a bit under x5 due to Hemalurgic decay ... say x4.5... even if their extra Hemalurgic strength increases as fast as normal strength with muscle area, by the square cube law you'd expect a 12' koloss to be about x25. If only the normal strength increases by square cube law it'd be more like x10).

This is a great reference thread! I think Hemalurgic spike-granted Allomancy/Compounding drawing from Ruin is likely a slip of the tongue, but it *is* what the WoB as we have it says. (I think confirming that would be a good question for Brandon, actually.) -- Re the Bands: even 1/16 of that spearhead is really very large as metalminds go. Much larger than a ring or earring. Wedding rings are like 1 to 10 grams, and they're largely gold which is one of the densest metals there is - over 19 grams per cubic centimeter. The 7 other pure metals used in Feruchemy/Allomancy are all less than half that - copper, zinc, tin, iron, cadmium, and chromium are all in the 7-9 grams/cc range; aluminum is weirdly light at about 2.3. Earrings are generally very low mass too. Only the larger bracelets/bracers, like a Keeper's copperminds and maybe Wax's iron ones (he stores most of the time), might be over an ounce and comparable to 1/16 of the Bands. And, yeah, I think the Bands are the only full metalmind we've ever seen.

Well, it seems like from SH that the Shard is vulnerable to Splintering when its not held - Leras says Ruin was trying to Splinter Preservation, before Kelsier uses the orb to grab it, but even Kelsier's poorly-compatible role as Vessel is enough to prevent that. So I was thinking that getting rid of the CS might be part of Splintering the Shard. (Or, the side effects of things that could kill a Shard might just obliterate the CS. Vin and Ati were so precisely balanced that maybe there just wasn't "leftover" power to do that.) I tend to think (general cosmere and RoW spoilers) that I'm not sure if Leras left a CS which chose to pass Beyond or if his mind-sacrifice + Ruin damage meant he didn't get the normal chance for a Sliver to stay at all (the normal Shard-expanded mind might have been mostly gone).

People can see into/partly enter the Spiritual Realm, but not go there bodily. SH says people burning atium are "transcending the Physical Realm", and since future sight is a Spiritual effect, they must be partly there. Brandon says Elend's duralumin+atium burn pulled "most of him" into the Spiritual. But even then Elend was still Physically bodily standing there in front of Marsh. Becoming a Shard does put someone in the Spiritual, but their body disappears in the process.

I'm not sure if Vin could just have picked up Preservation again, if Sazed hadn't been there. Kelsier cheated with the Ire orb; do we know a cognitive shadow could take up a Shard without help? Also, that seems to make killing a Shard a bit pointless. I do wonder if usually there's no Shadow left behind (because whoever/whatever killed the Shard goes on to destroy the Shadow too) and Vin/Ati only had that choice to stay because they both died simultaneously so neither could go on to destroy the other's Shadow. I also wonder what makes the desire to stay so rare (Leras in SH talks about it like Kelsier's desire to stay is super unnatural and weird). Maybe most perceive the "pull of the Beyond" or "stretching" effect as something desirable/pleasant? Elend does smile at 'something Beyond'...

Hmm, that's another thought. The diminishing returns may not hit Health as hard since the self 'wants' to be healthy/healed. TLR's atium Youth had accelerating costs because he needed to use more and more to stay in the same place, since it was an actively unnatural change against what his Spiritual 'knew' to be true (that he was actually super old) and it 'wanted' to snap back; Health might be the opposite, where diminishing returns are less bad because it's trying to put you in a natural state rather than give you extra powers per se.

I disagree on both parts. I think the loss of the Terris religion was probably largely due to the Mistwraith-ification of all the Feruchemists (who likely were a large part of the population back then, before multiple TLR-induced reductions). Probably basically all scholars and religious leaders were Feruchemists, so much of the doctrine was quickly lost. Also TLR announced himself as the Hero of Ages, the prime figure of Terris religion, so he had a chance to rewrite their doctrine - he replaced their (now gone) religious leaders. I doubt his replacement of the original Terris religion was as total/hostile* in the first century as it became later. 200 years of a new doctrine, in a world where there were probably no written records (because the Feruchemists kept it all in their copperminds) and no living tradition of the doctrine above the folk level (because of the mistwraith transformation), would easily be enough to totally overwrite what existed before. *TLR announced himself as Hero of Ages. The Deepness did disappear; IMO it's totally possible that the Terris of that time, totally shocked by the disappearance of their leaders and scholars, accepted his claim and supported him as a source of stability in a world gone crazy. I don't think he *did* realize in a few years, I think it genuinely took at least a generation and (from what Sazed says) quite possibly two centuries plus. I think TLR thought he'd solved the threat and simply didn't pay attention. I'm not sure - or at least it's unclear. Tindall says that King Wednegon was the last to meaningfully resist TLR, and Deepness-caused diminished food supplies were an issue in that war: thus no more than a few years post TLR's Ascension. But there's also a reference to TLR using koloss to conquer new societies discovered on the islands in (apparently) relatively recent (to Vin's era) times. I think Sazed also says that TLR conquered some nation "late in his first century of life", which would have to be well after Wednegon's war, maybe 40 or 50 years post Ascension at least. So it's pretty baffling. Maybe "meaningful" just means that Wednegon was thought to have a chance and the others didn't - but given TLR's powers its hard to see how he ever could have had a chance. Perhaps it means that the advantages weren't yet fully obvious? Also, TLR's tech suppression wouldn't have happened yet, and I'd think Napoleonic era armies would do very well vs koloss - to the point that I can totally see Wednegon thinking logistics were the real killer (koloss don't have to care about that). Maybe Wednegon's armies actually won battles (certainly if TLR wasn't personally present, or hadn't yet fully worked out Compounding, that seems totally reasonable) and that was the distinguishing factor.

That WoB doesn't say that a spren-spren bond would give the full benefits of a Radiant bond, though. There are lots of other spren bonds (Ryshadium, chasmfiends, probably Rock's "blessing from the spren", etc). Nale has a body *sometimes*. He became a Radiant before Aharietiam. What about when he was dead on Braize? Did his highspren temporarily lose sapience, or get booted back fully into the Cognitive Realm, until the next Desolation when Nale came back?

I thought what Human was saying was "not right" was telling Vin about how koloss were made - or maybe more generally that it was "not right" that she didn't already know (they'd been controlled before by TLR and Inquisitors, who surely knew).

Yeah, I think the health vs healing distinction is genuinely relevant here, because Feruchemical health is just weird. Per WoB it can heal Spiritual wounds*, but what's stored seems to just be physical healthiness. So I think a broad general health is stored, and then when tapped gets applied to *specific* injuries - so it seems much more powerful. That 2 weeks isn't just 2 weeks worth of diminished wound-healing-rate, it's also the "health power" being stored up from having a depressed immune system and a headache and such... which all gets stored as "generic health power" and can all be applied to that bullet wound as wound-healing-rate. *something which I am not entirely fond of - it makes Feruchemical healing feel less balanced and it's strong enough without it - but it seems to be canon, and is probably simpler than trying to make Feruchemical Health a strictly biological thing (which might introduce problems with a super-strengthened immune system causing autoimmune problems, etc). So I think F Gold just turns everything stored into "generic health power" and then it's applied however needed when tapped. It says somewhere in era 2 that F Gold is better for wounds than diseases. Maybe that's because wounds are generally in one spot so the power is applied more effectively.

I think it's entirely possible. Supposedly TLR and the Ministry already thought Feruchemy was extinct, but while they couldn't *always* find Keepers for the gold spikes, the fact they were even still trying implies that they knew Feruchemy wasn't 100% extinct. But it's also possible- and maybe more likely - that TLR's intent was genuinely to reduce Feruchemy as much as possible without making the Terris extinct*, but that it was recognized they wouldn't get all the way to zero, so they kept looking for the few exceptions to spike. (Either way I think most of the Ministry involved did honestly believe Feruchemy was gone. Probably only TLR, the Inquisitors, and a few top obligators knew the truth.) Also TLR was not terribly stable late in his reign, so it's possible that in different periods his goals changed, or that at times he thought Feruchemy was 100% extinct and at other times he knew that was false. *I do think it was TLR's own Terris connection that kept him from killing them off. I think the extreme horrible oppression we see in Vin's time is the result of a long period of corruption (either due to Ruin's influence or TLR's own declining mental stability/decay of goals). Sazed, IIRC, says there was a big purge of Terris in the 3rd century when the Keepers became known (they were founded about 200 years after TLR's Ascension I think). Yomen says the stewardship program was a 6th century invention of the Canton of Inquisition (and, from the context, that involved introducing the eunuchs thing). So I think it's actually pretty likely that TLR *originally* made the (non-mistwraithified) Terris a privileged class (though he didn't give them Allomancy), thinking that the mistwraith transformation had removed any threat they posed, and only started changing course on that in the 3rd century (and then progressively made it worse over the next 400 years or so). But that process was probably slow enough, step by step, that TLR never considered outright killing off the Terris (and, given his instability in his later reign, he might have lied to himself about how bad things actually were).

I definitely think WoA is underrated. It's not as 'flawless' as book 1 but it does stuff that is very rarely done - especially how it's mostly about the aftermath of defeating 'the big villain', the really hard problems aren't solvable with a fight. I don't find Zane as annoying as many (most?) readers do - or rather, I think the annoying parts are all made up for by the tower attack scene. I think that part is important. It really shows a strong contrast between Vin and Kelsier (Kelsier, IMO, would have gone on to kill Cett and his son and would not have felt guilty afterwards - much less been overwhelmed with guilt the way Vin was). Vin's discomfort with being Heir of the Survivor is also relevant here - Kelsier wanted to be seen as this mythic figure. I think Zane's also important to get the whole concept of "why should Mistborn be bound to follow normal people as rulers" out on the page in a character's words, which is really an obvious idea in a world with hereditary superpowers, especially now that TLR is gone and the Inquisitors have mostly gone into hiding, leaving the Mistborn as the most powerful beings active. (Though Zane doesn't believe the idea fully himself - if he did, he'd either overthrow Straff and claim the throne, or just leave and set up on his own.)

Nightblood would definitely permakill Nale. If it can consume a Shard's Vessel, a mere Herald should be no problem. It wouldn't even be a matter of cutting Connection to the Oathpact (like what happened to Jezrien); Nightblood destroys on all three realms. Nale's Cognitive-Shadow self, not just his body, would be obliterated/consumed. That doesn't mean killing him with Nightblood would be easy though - he obviously knows what it is (which Rayse might not have) and would use Gravitation to stay out of range. I do wonder if Nale gets full 5th ideal Radiant healing, or if the nature of being a Herald limits him to the much worse Honorblade level of healing. If he gets all the benefits, he'd have been invincible before Honor died- as a Herald he'd have unlimited Stormlight, and as a high ideal Radiant he couldn't be killed by physical harm until out of Stormlight (and Nightblood/anti-Investiture weren't yet available). Conceivably he might not have Plate. I don't think we know exactly why a Radiant bond gives Plate (which is a bunch of other spren); its already weird enough that Nale (basically a spren himself as a Cognitive Shadow) can have a Radiant bond *at all* (as a Cognitive entity, how can he give a spren a Connection to the Physical?)

Keepers stored a ton of knowledge- all the knowledge of the whole organization, not just their specialty. I believe they spent years in training, and much of that was storing a library in copper. And I think 24cc is actually quite a lot compared to most metalminds - often bracelets, rings or earrings. The wedding ring I'm wearing now has got to be much less than 1 cc, and it's a reasonably broad band - many rings are very thin. Bracelets would of course be a lot more, but 1 cc isn't that small an amount of metal - it's equivalent to a large coin (a US quarter is a bit less than 1 cc).

Elantrian might be the most powerful (if you can get around the region limitation) but I don't like the idea that a random earthquake could turn me into a zombie. And that region limitation is harsh. 5th Heightening Awakener is tricky, because if you don't get the Breath back every time you lose the immortality. But apparently even much smaller amounts of Breath extend life: a mere 50 (1st Heightening) adds a decade to life expectancy, and Vivenna with - what, 800 maybe? Definitely over 600 but not 4th Heightening yet - is I think said to be almost immune to aging and disease. And Breath can be given to others, and a very long extra-healthy life shared with my family is probably preferable to immortality alone. So that option seems very attractive... OTOH, if people figured out what it was they might kidnap me and try to force me to give up the Breath. I don't know how obvious a BioChroma aura would be for non-Nalthians without Breath of their own, but at 5th it's likely pretty distinct. (Hoid doesn't show one, but he might only be 2nd and might also know a trick to suppress the aura?) Feruchemist is also tempting, because it has so many everyday-life benefits. Surgebinder... also tricky. Since the poll says third ideal, presumably that's Radiant, and I don't want to risk killing a spren. (If I could be an Honorblade Surgebinder, though, the Edgedancer or Truthwatcher one - for the ability to heal people - would be super tempting. Progression Growth might also have environmental uses, like regrowing a forest really fast.) I think my choice would have to come down to how obvious the aura would be. If I could get around that, Awakener, if not, Feruchemist.

Yeah, there's no way. Diminishing returns means eating a battleship sized metalmind probably wouldn’t be enough for those... I think a human becoming a black hole would have to mass dozens of times more than the entire Earth. I think diminishing returns means the upper *practical* limit is a lot more reasonable than often suggested. And we haven't seen much of live Plate. Dead Shardplate has the strength of "many men", and the size of Dalinar's hammer compared to RL warhammers suggests something like 20-30x strength. So I'd argue that Shardplate is probably at least as strong as Sazed at massive F-pewter levels at the end of WoA, or the largest koloss.

The Bands vs Medallion difference is weird. I am not sure how natural nicrosil would work.

They are definitely related... but drabs are still fully sapient, they just experience the world less vividly. OTOH, drabs don't literally have zero Investiture... but life sense can't detect them at all, though it can detect *grass*. Which has way less mind than a drab, and probably less Investiture too. So I think it's not quite that simple*. IMO Patji predators' mind-sense is not identical to Nalthian lifestyle. It's a similar Cosmere mechanism - but slight differences might be important. I think it might still sense drabs, but a coppercloud would block it - that Aviar power seems pretty directly analogous to Allomantic copper. I think the mind-sense would work on a Cognitive level, like Allomantic copper and bronze do - but not fully "seeing into the Cognitive Realm" the way we see it done on Roshar. Vin burning copper is sensing something Cognitive, but she doesn't see the mist-landscape of the Scadrian Cognitive Realm. (I think Nalthian life sense is probably working through a Cognitive medium, even if what it's detecting is ultimately Spiritual Investiture, since it's proximity based. But so is era 1 Atium Allomancy, so who knows.) *Life sense is also super weird because if it's detecting Investiture, it's detecting static/Innate Investiture, which most methods don't do. Things like the screaming voidspren in OB, white sand, and Allomantic Bronze detect kinetic Investiture specifically.