Updating a Good Theory.

[Karger he/him]

As Zahel says

Quote

the trouble with science. It’s never done. Always upending itself. Ruining perfect systems for the little inconvenience of them being wrong.”

So now I have to update things for this one.

I think my underlying assumptions still work.  There does seem to be a pattern we need to go over some of my assumptions.  I am going to modify my understanding of the second ideal.  I don't think it is about service so much as it is about improvement.  Improving yourself improves the world and improving others improves yourself.  Because of this working to improve either is the same as far as ideals are concerned.  Remembering, Protecting, or Freeing others also helps you.  Administering Justice to others and Reaching your own Potential helps the world.

The third ideal still concerns your hangups.  The people you hate, your own shortsightedness, or your inability to move past something have to be overcome if you are actually committed to this course of action.  You cannot decide to only improve when it suits you.  It is not enough to pay attention to the overlooked you also have to pay attention to the willfully ignored.  You cannot just protect the people you like you have to protect everyone including yourself.  Justice cannot be administered at your own pleasure you must seek objectivity to do it correctly.

The fourth ideal is one we now have some more clarity on.  What is the thing that Kaladin had to do, Dalinar still must do, and Szeth is going to do.  Ideals are all very well but they don't mean much if you cannot use them.  I think the fourth ideal thematically is about acceptance of reality. Kaladin has to accept failure as part of his quest, Szeth has to demonstrate commitment to applying his code in the real world, Dalinar has to get off his high horse and understand that others sometimes have a point and don't always work exactly the way he thinks they should.  Acceptance of your own failings, the failings of others, and the failings of the less then perfect world you live in is my theory for the general fourth idea.

Still no new information on the fifth though.

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

I think my underlying assumptions still work.  There does seem to be a pattern we need to go over some of my assumptions.  I am going to modify my understanding of the second ideal.  I don't think it is about service so much as it is about improvement.  Improving yourself improves the world and improving others improves yourself.  Because of this working to improve either is the same as far as ideals are concerned.  Remembering, Protecting, or Freeing others also helps you.  Administering Justice to others and Reaching your own Potential helps the world.

The third ideal still concerns your hangups.  The people you hate, your own shortsightedness, or your inability to move past something have to be overcome if you are actually committed to this course of action.  You cannot decide to only improve when it suits you.  It is not enough to pay attention to the overlooked you also have to pay attention to the willfully ignored.  You cannot just protect the people you like you have to protect everyone including yourself.  Justice cannot be administered at your own pleasure you must seek objectivity to do it correctly.

The fourth ideal is one we now have some more clarity on.  What is the thing that Kaladin had to do, Dalinar still must do, and Szeth is going to do.  Ideals are all very well but they don't mean much if you cannot use them.  I think the fourth ideal thematically is about acceptance of reality. Kaladin has to accept failure as part of his quest, Szeth has to demonstrate commitment to applying his code in the real world, Dalinar has to get off his high horse and understand that others sometimes have a point and don't always work exactly the way he thinks they should.  Acceptance of your own failings, the failings of others, and the failings of the less then perfect world you live in is my theory for the general fourth idea.

Still no new information on the fifth though.

I agree with this.

[Karger he/him]

3 minutes ago, Ookla the Unnamable said:

I agree with this.

Thanks!  Any thoughts on the fifth?

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

I posted on your last one. I think my interpretation is still valid, and we mostly agreed on what we spoke about before. Personally I think your second ideal is still a bit too complicated. Or rather,  maybe you're describing the effects of swearing that oath. My interpretation (Order Mission Statement) is what the 2nd Ideal is, improving oneself according to a guideline (to paraphrase what I think you meant)is what swearing the 2nd oath does. As far as the 4th Ideal,  Kaladin has passed his Crucible,  I think Teft passed his too (and had stupid Moash hadn't killed Pheandora he'd have spoken his 4th), Szeth is embarking on his and Dalinar is close,  as indicated by him handing his book to Jasnah to add undertext.  I don't know what Lift's 4th will be but I can imagine her admission of her words to Cultivation to be a significant step towards it. Maybe I will listen to myself? 

I am stumped on that 5th Oath. If its embodiment then I really don't know what else Kaladin needs to exhibit to show that he's the ultimate in Protection. I don't know how many secrets Shallan has left. Once Szeth cleanses Shinovar I don't know what else he has to prove. I couldn't tell you how Dalinar could swear the 5th without immediately Ascending to Honor. 

[Karger he/him]

20 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Personally I think your second ideal is still a bit too complicated. Or rather,  maybe you're describing the effects of swearing that oath

I tried to simplify this time around for convince but in general terms "increasing the total amount of good in the universe" is the broad characteristic.

20 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I am stumped on that 5th Oath. If its embodiment then I really don't know what else Kaladin needs to exhibit to show that he's the ultimate in Protection. I don't know how many secrets Shallan has left. Once Szeth cleanses Shinovar I don't know what else he has to prove. I couldn't tell you how Dalinar could swear the 5th without immediately Ascending to Honor. 

I think it is looking for a source.  Like finding and understanding a reason why.