Harry Potter; The Controversy

[FantasyFanatic he/him]

So, recently me and my sister have been arguing over if Harry Potter is a good series. I stand by the opinion that Harry Potter is a decently good series and I respect it for how it shaped the reading community. But I don't think that it's a great story for a few reasons. The first is that J K Rowling didn't really make a good story. I don't feel like the story was spectacular, she didn't really bring anything new to the reading world. Secondly, I don't really like how she overlapped the wizarding world with the real world and how she did the magic system (but I do think that she did a better job than most low magic systems). But, finally by biggest problem with the series is we don't really get to see the characters grow. We see Harry being grumpy in the 2nd book and he is still grumpy in the 7th book. But I would like to know what are your opinions on Harry Potter. Do you think it is a fabulous story or that it is simply an ok story?

[Honorless he/him]

The biggest thing the story has going for itself is the fact that the characters literally grew up with the readers. The world isn't fully fleshed out, true, but it's very immersive. The idea, back then, was totally new, and now it has become a prototype.

Whether the Harry Potter series is good or not is one of those things where both sides are right

[Ammanas]

It’s a series that’s really fun to read and easy to lose yourself in. Sure it doesn’t have sublime prose or other aspects that people can admire and study even hundreds of years from now. I enjoy all types of stories. War and Peace to young adult.  Sure there are series I enjoy more as a adult but HP really has a way to kindle a love of reading and books like nothing else I have encountered.

[Elegy he/him]

Harry Potter is an unusual case in that it's obvious how many things are just complete nonsense, how many weaknesses there are, etc, yet still none of that ever ruined the immersion for me. Somehow - and I blame the characters, the detailed world and the many weird situations for this - it always felt alive as it was, warts and all. It has its tone, the atmosphere, the whole feeling of Hogwarts so well down that it doesn't bother me as much. Honestly, I kinda enjoy how broken the logic of this series is - I never do stuff like that with other stories, but I could scroll through plot hole articles and watch YouTube videos on things that don't make sense in Harry Potter for hours. It's weird.

That said, I do think it will turn into more and more of a generational thing as time goes on, in contrast to what, say, Lord of the Rings achieved. Still, I'm grateful to have been around when it all added up, seeing the boy who lived grow during my school years. You could say, the experience of being there was probably better than the books. I hope that there will be something comparable for future generations, one day, because since Harry Potter ended, there sure wasn't. More generations need their Harry Potters.

[Frustration]

My opinion is... complicated.

Harry Potter is one of the only books I can re-read,(not a huge point in it's favor, but a point)

It is riddled with inconsistencies, one of my main problems with it.

and it's none too subtly coping of Tolkien I mean not as bad as Eragon did but still.

[Snorkel]

6 hours ago, FantasyFanitic said:

I don't feel like the story was spectacular, she didn't really bring anything new to the reading world.

Really?  In 1997 it felt pretty new and fantastic!

We got the first book from the library when it was brand new, my Mum read it and then gave it to me and said I had to read it.  We were both reading a lot of YA/children's at the time, and it WAS very different to the other things that were available then.  Part of its charm was the almost naive humour with things like the school song and Dumbledore saying a few words: "Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!".

We saw a newspaper story saying a second book would be published soon, and I'm not sure what was more exciting - to see that a sequel was coming for a book I really enjoyed, or to see that the newspaper was even bothering itself with writing about a book for children.  Before Harry Potter, children's fiction was paid almost no attention at all.  The popular books were mostly ghostwritten formulaic series (Sweet Valley High and Babysitter's Club were popular at my school ... I tried to read some and they were BAD).  Harry Potter brought some originality to the genre, and I suppose it showed publishers that they could loosen up and publish some more diverse stuff.

Yup, the magic system didn't really make a lot of sense, but that didn't matter because they were very entertaining reads.

[Snorkel]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

My opinion is... complicated.

Harry Potter is one of the only books I can re-read,(not a huge point in it's favor, but a point)

It is riddled with inconsistencies, one of my main problems with it.

and it's none too subtly coping of Tolkien I mean not as bad as Eragon did but still.

Do you mean Eragon copied Tolkien? Or are you meaning how Eragon was basically a re-write of Star Wars?

[Frustration]

Just now, Snorkel said:

Do you mean Eragon copied Tolkien? Or are you meaning how Eragon was basically a re-write of Star Wars?

Well it's both, but I meant Tolkien.

[FantasyFanatic he/him]

1 hour ago, Snorkel said:

Really?  In 1997 it felt pretty new and fantastic!

You bring up a good point (I didn't read the books until later), but even so I just think that there are to many inconsistencies, plot holes and not thinking about consequences, that I don't think that it's a great series.

[+ILuvHats he/him]

I have a love-hate relationship with Harry Potter. As in I used to love it, and now I... don’t exactly hate it, but it definitely seems more meh. I’ve always been the type of person to over read the heck out of series and it’s not uncommon for me to have read a series 4-5 times. In fact, I’ve been deliberately fasting from re reading cosmere books for about a year now. In the case of Harry Potter, I think I read it around 11 times. I don’t know, I lost track at some point. How could I have read it so many times you ask? Well when you’re 9 years old, you don’t really have anything to compare it to. So yeah, I spent 3-4 years re-reading the series every few months, until I quite literally got tired of it. And looking back, it quite clearly doesn’t stand up to the level of literature I’m now accustomed to. But it’ll still hold a special place in my heart for jump starting my love for fantasy. 

[Guest Coda]

As a person who did not read Harry Potter until recently, I found it to be lackluster. I understand how one could enjoy it, but the nonsensical spellcasting and unexplained plot holes ruined my immersion. I prefer self-consistent fantasy.

[Karger he/him]

Much is made of the inconsistencies and weird logic or the wizarding world but I think it is telling that you can read the story and not be confused on what is happening or why.  Our world doesn't make much sense to me either after all.  As soft magic systems go I think JK did some excellent work.  We don't fully know what works or why but we do know enough that the plot stays together.  As to lack of character growth.  Dudders has a character arc that is real and makes sense!  Snape's motivations are guessable and make a degree of sense.  Our three mains get increasingly sophisticated while remaining themselves.  Honestly I think great work was done there.

[TheGirlWhoLookedUp she/her]

For me I read Harry Potter when I was younger and it sort of introduced me to the world of reading. The first ones were very magical an fun and I still really enjoy them. After the fourth one however I felt like the magic sort of went away and it all became very serious. That’s not to say I didn’t enjoy them however.

My only problem was with the Slytherins. They were pretty unrealistic most of the time and I think it would be great to meet one that doesn’t hate Harry or isn’t a Deatheater.

[Iarwainiel I she/her]

@FantasyFanitic this is a great topic - thanks for posting!

I think people who read HP when they were young, especially those who were about the same age as Harry when each book was published, probably love the series more than those who were older at that time. The books would definitely have captivated me if I'd been a tween/teen then. But as a middle-aged person who'd read a bit of fantasy before, my immediate impression was that JKR cribbed many of her plot points and magicks from previous authors. It's almost like she set out to allow her readers to dip their toe into a bunch of different fantasy worlds and folktales/myths. A lot of it - more than you'd think - comes from Celtic or Norse mythology; and of course most of the "spells" are Latin that's been modified. But children wouldn't know that - it would all be new to them, and wonderful. I'd be interested to know if someone who grew up reading HP ever recognized JKR's sources when studying ancient literature in college/university.

But IMO probably the best thing to come of HP is the rise in reading being "cool," and kids reading longer books than they had done in at least a decade. That and the way it has brought imagination and creativity to the fore are really worthwhile additions to our culture.

Edited April 19, 2020 by old aggie

[Snakenaps she/her]

Is Harry Potter the best fantasy book out there? To some people out there, yes, to others, no. Is it near and dear to my own heart? Absolutely, 110%

I believe that the most important thing to remember about Harry Potter is that it is a children's/YA book. Yes, it has an extremely 'soft' magic system, yes, there are inconsistencies. But, for a child, Harry Potter is a wonderful world for children to escape into, with lovable characters, a school that every child wishes that they could attend, and a sparkling world filled with magic. 

I am of the personal opinion that Harry Potter was and is incredibly important to the publishing industry. For one, it changed literature for young readers, as Harry Potter balances between children's chapter books and YA. Before Harry Potter, children's chapter books tended to be considerably shorter (less than 300 pages) and stayed away from darker themes. Short and sweet. Harry Potter came around and exploded the children's market. The Boston Globe states, "In July 2000, in its first major change to the lists’ format in 16 years, the [New York Times] decided a children’s list was necessary after the first three Harry Potter books held the top three positions on The New York Times’ Bestseller List for more than a year — no new adult books could compete!" Book List Reader found that Harry Potter was one of the main reasons that the page length of middle grade books has increased by 173% in the last forty years. 

Now, let's look at the social impact. 

In 2014, the Journal of Applied Social Psychology found that children who read Harry Potter were more likely to show empathy and open-mindedness, especially towards minority groups. The British Medical Journal discovered that the release of Harry Potter books decreased children's visitations to the hospitals for musculoskeletal injuries: "It may therefore be hypothesized that there is a place for a committee of safety-conscious, talented writers who could produce high-quality books for the purpose of injury prevention." These are some bizarre facts, but take a peek at something a little more grounded:

In 2018, the Wizarding World announced that more than "500 million books sold all over the world, in 80 languages" and that "one in fifteen people in the world owns a Harry Potter book." Scholastic reported that, "In a national survey conducted in 2008, three out of four kids said that reading a Harry Potter book has made them interested in reading other books, too." Harry Potter has brought together millions of children, teenagers, and adults, giving them something in common with something as basic as "What's your Hogwarts house?" From fanfiction, movies, games, amusement parks, Quidditch, release parties, cosplay, costumes, and more, Harry Potter has the magical ability to bring people together, no matter what part of the world you are in. It has and continues to introduce and encourage children to reading and the fantasy genre. I am a teacher, and I can confidently say from personal experience that children are still reading Harry Potter with the same stars in their eyes as I had when I was introduced to the series. 

Is Harry Potter perfect? No. As you probably know well, it has a long history of controversy. Its witchcraft and wizardly has been one of the most banned books according to the American Library Association for more than twenty years. J.K. Rowling famously Tweeted that Dumbledore was gay, causing fury for many, whether it be anger from homophobics, disappointed readers who refused to accept it because it was never mentioned in the book outright, or those who felt that Harry Potter lacked LGBTQ+ diversity. With massive success, comes backlash.

I'll summarize my opinion as this: You may adore Harry Potter, you may be apathetic, you may believe it is garbage. No matter your own personal opinions of Harry Potter, it is hard to argue how it has changed the world in the last twenty-three years.  

[Truthless of Shinovar he/him]

Personally, although I know there are many plot holes and inconsistencies, I love it anyways. Simply put, Harry Potter was one of the first series that I really got into and completed, and played a huge role in fostering my love of reading, as well as magic. It’s nostalgic to read the books, and that’s honestly the biggest reason as to why I like the books.

[Dunkum he/him]

Actually rereading the series right now, and I find myself audibly scoffing at some of the dumber things that characters do, and some of the more nonsensical things in their world.  I more or less agree with the opinion that its a decent read, with a number of flaws.  when it first came out, I was in middle school and had been reading fantasy (tolkein included) for years, so while everyone was gushing over this new series, i was reading it and thinking how much i liked other books better, which sort of tainted my enjoyment a bit.  so i had been intending to reread it eventually after most fo the hype had died down.  I will say that I think Rowling sets up the Horcrux stuff in the last books reasonably well though.

[Jaywalk he/him]

Whether it’s good or not, that’s completely subjective. But I love the series and I greatly enjoy it, and that’s what matters to me.

[Rushu42 she/her]

As a lifelong Potterfan, I feel that I have to throw my own two cents in here. I read the series when I was 6 years old (finishing shortly after my seventh birthday), and I believe that Harry Potter really kickstarted my love of the fantasy genre, and for books in general. I can't speak as well for the impact it had on the world as a whole, as I wasn't around when it was published, but I can say that it had an impact on my life. My younger brother recently finished the books (he's 6 as well) and it's been amazing to see how invested he became in the world so quickly. The best part is, when he was done he immediately started looking for more things to read. Personally, I connected with many of my childhood friends over a shared love of Harry Potter, and reread the series countless times throughout elementary and middle school.

When it comes down to it, people love these books. I'm not saying that everyone does, but it's created one of the biggest fanbases in the world. That's a decent indication that they did what they set out to do; bringing joy to children. Yes, they're full of inconsistencies, confusing messages, and the occasional generic plot point, but that's because they're kid's' books. I doubt that there are many other children's' series that would hold up to the level of examination that we've put Harry Potter through. The reason that the flaws seem so apparent to us is because Harry Potter has gotten so much attention.

I'm no longer one of those fans that idolizes the Wizarding World. I will freely admit that there are issues. For example, what was up with House Elves? Still, the fact remains that millions of people's lives were touched by a simple fantasy series for kids. So, yes, Harry Potter is a good series. Not a perfect one, but a darn good one.

TL;DR: I say yes.

[Orlion Blight he/him]

So. Here's what you need to know before answering this question: it's a series for children. As a result, certain criticisms of the world (how exactly does Hogwarts enrollment work, why is it the most dangerous place for children)  and literary critiques (characterization, plotting, e.t.c suck) don't really apply. It functions first and foremost as children's literature and seems to be as successful in that regard as the Chronicles of Narnia (another "beloved" series that doesn't really survive literary scrutiny).

 

The other thing to consider is it's culture impact. In this case, it's akin to Star Wars in that it is a near universal shared culture. Whatever other interests one may have, people can usually discuss and know about Harry Potter. As with Star Wars, you can use events from the series to illustrate how you view the world and most other people will instantly understand what you are saying. 

And it's made a lot of discourse lazy. As a child, comparing evil men to Voldemort and jerks to Umbridge supplements your developing understanding of the world. Great! 

As an adult? It implies your understanding of the world stopped developing around junior high. It means you haven't really tried to understand how the world works. 

Which means serious criticism of Harry Potter becomes necessary. If the flaws in the series' outlook aren't made plain, many will continue to adhere to Harry Potter morality, which though not the worst thing doesn't help address actual societal issues. 

And keep in mind, these flaws are "flaws" only because adults take them waaay too seriously. They are simply features in children's literature that have undue influence on adults' lives. 

[Snorkel]

On 19/04/2020 at 3:35 PM, old aggie said:

It's almost like she set out to allow her readers to dip their toe into a bunch of different fantasy worlds and folktales/myths. A lot of it - more than you'd think - comes from Celtic or Norse mythology; and of course most of the "spells" are Latin that's been modified.

I definitely recognised a bunch of different mythological elements, and the latin-derived spells when I was a teen.

When the later books started to come out, there was a vocal group of people who got really ANGRY about this topic.  They'd complain that Rowling was very unoriginal and that she was "raping mythology" ... I heard that exact phrase from several different people D:

This reaction always baffled me (I mean, other than the completely inappropriate comparison).  Her universe exists in the same place as the real world, it's only partially hidden and historically has not been hidden.  It seems perfect that our mythology would be semi-incorrect interpretations of real magical creatures.  Her setting is in a place where Celts lived and the Norse invaded, so that works just fine.

As for Latin, well I've imagined that magic is a little like computer programming.  High-level programming languages are usually based on English.  But magic is much older than computers, so ... Latin works fine.

[Iarwainiel I she/her]

19 minutes ago, Snorkel said:

... When the later books started to come out, there was a vocal group of people who got really ANGRY about this topic.  ... This reaction always baffled me ...

I am 100% in agreement with you there. To me, it seems more like a kid's-level introduction to stories and literary elements that could be expanded on later in life. There were a bunch of weird opinions about the series when it first came out, but I guess that shouldn't surprise us, seeing as how back in the '70s there were people who thought that The Lord of the Rings was a book about the occult that "decent" people shouldn't read (despite Tolkien being a faithful Catholic!). No accounting for opinions, eh?

[Emerald_Mage he/him]

While it has it's merits, (mostly getting kids into reading) I would say that it is far from a great story. Yes, it's meant for a younger audience, but there are some problems that I feel like that makes it worse. (These were brought up to me when I took the One Year Adventure Novel course for high school. If you don't want your ability to enjoy stories to be stained for the rest of your life, don't take that.) 

My enjoyment of the stories after childhood has also been hindered by some major continuity errors/really dumb choices made by the characters.

So personally I believe Harry Potter has its place. I just feel like it's a really small place.

[Snorkel]

It's really hard to read something where you fundamentally disagree with every choice the character makes.

One of my favourite book used to be Treasure Island.  Trying to re-read it as an adult, every single choice Jim Hawkins makes in teh early part of the book, I'm going "WHY??? NOO!  Just do the safe thing, don't be a moron!" D:

That why I couldn't stand to watch Breaking Bad, after seeing him make morally bad choice after bad choice, why am I supposed to enjoy watching several seasons of this villain not getting his just deserts?

[Dunkum he/him]

19 minutes ago, Snorkel said:

It's really hard to read something where you fundamentally disagree with every choice the character makes.

me for abotu 80% of the things Harry does:

"Harry you are, at best, a D student who is only passing because Hermione is smart and capable enough to drag you and Ron up with her.  you are approximately the least qulified person to be investigating whatever it is you are looking for right now."

there is also a certain amount of "it wasn't Snape last year, or the year before or the year before, so maybe stop suspecting him."