Jasnah V Kaladin

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Jasnah soulcasts steps at distance while running up them before the realms are put together.

Yes. She was standing next to the wall. She wasn't fighting ten or twenty feet away from the wall and casted stairs from where she was to secure an escape route or something. It's fair to postulate that the farther she is from the object or area she wants to change the more effort it takes. Whether that's slowing the speed of casting or requiring more Stormlight or needing a gem reserve to work it, I know the sample size is crappy but there's something going on with her and distance Soulcasting and I hope we get more examples in SA4.

 

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

My problem with unpredictable elements, is because they are unpredictable. As I said to karger. I could say a random meteor falls from the sky and killed Kaladin before he can lash it away, or before he can heal from it. Jasnah wins? it doesn't have to do anything with the powers, their abilities, and how they employ it. So how can we measure it?

That's the reason I look at it in terms of percentages. It's a predictive tool that seeks to factor out the lucky bounces, the freak occurances ect. It's how Vegas would lay odds if this battle were taking place at the MGM. Of course none of our data points have huge sample sizes so the prediction has a sizable margin of error but we have enough knowledge of the world, the powers of our combatants, and the potential of what a Full Radiant would look to make a rough estimate. If all your looking at is their power set you are getting a less complete picture. That I and others can see a scenario that Jasnah loses doesn't make them wrong, or you wrong if you disagree. My point was to try and bring a more scientific evaluation to the discussion. I feel it has its place even in a subjective discussion such as this.

[Pathfinder]

Ok I will start out with a general response to both @Karger and @Bigmikey357

So, yes there are numerous variables in this world. Yes anything could theoretically happen. But it has been my experience that when you wish to come to conclusions over something, you do the best you can to eliminate as many variables as possible. Lets take mythbusters for instance. There was a whole episode about if it was possible for a sword to deflect a bullet. So what did they do? They lined up the gun and the sword directly. They tested various ranges. They made a contraption to mimic a sword swinging. They made the sword swing far stronger than it could normally to see if deflecting a bullet was possible at all. Based on the results of those tests, they came to the conclusion that it would not be feasible to attempt to deflect a bullet. You would have to be too far from the shooter to be reasonable to successfully block a bullet. Otherwise the speed of the bullet would be too fast for the human body's reaction time. You would have to be aware of the shooter despite the distance. You would have to some how, despite the distance know where exactly the shooter was targeting and how the wind would affect the change of trajectory of bullet to some how know where to place your blade in time to deflect the bullet. Finally the force of the bullet would either deflect not enough to not hit the target (for instance hitting slightly to the right or left instead of dead on, but still striking the target lethally) or shatter the sword itself, resulting in the swords shards killing the target. So for all these reasons, they concluded deflecting a bullet is not plausible. That is my goal in this bout. To take as much concrete information as we can from the books and WoB, and apply it to a sterile as possible scenario. That I feel is being scientific. 

1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Yes. She was standing next to the wall. She wasn't fighting ten or twenty feet away from the wall and casted stairs from where she was to secure an escape route or something. It's fair to postulate that the farther she is from the object or area she wants to change the more effort it takes. Whether that's slowing the speed of casting or requiring more Stormlight or needing a gem reserve to work it, I know the sample size is crappy but there's something going on with her and distance Soulcasting and I hope we get more examples in SA4.

 

That's the reason I look at it in terms of percentages. It's a predictive tool that seeks to factor out the lucky bounces, the freak occurances ect. It's how Vegas would lay odds if this battle were taking place at the MGM. Of course none of our data points have huge sample sizes so the prediction has a sizable margin of error but we have enough knowledge of the world, the powers of our combatants, and the potential of what a Full Radiant would look to make a rough estimate. If all your looking at is their power set you are getting a less complete picture. That I and others can see a scenario that Jasnah loses doesn't make them wrong, or you wrong if you disagree. My point was to try and bring a more scientific evaluation to the discussion. I feel it has its place even in a subjective discussion such as this.

I hope we get a ton more examples of her soulcast in the next books as well. But till then I am attempting to derive as much concrete information based on what we have right now. And right now we know (to me) based on the scenes I provided, that Jasnah can soulcast at a distance without pause. You disagree. I respect your thoughts, just I cannot agree with them. 

So little bit of context. Correct me if I am wrong @Karger but this whole thing started on another thread. Another individual said that soulcasting was so strong, all you need to do is fuel Jasnah and Shallan and it is a win. Karger felt other surges were stronger, and I believe cited Kaladin. So some of us went back and forth over the surges. Karger didn't want to digress the thread, so it was suggested to make a separate one. I was going on the premise we were talking solely about the surges, but Karger titled this Kaladin vs Jasnah. Not saying that to point fingers or blame. I am literally just writing a chronological order of events. We began this thread talking about person A with windrunner surges, and person B with elsecaller surges. Other people quickly jumped in and started comparing Kaladin and Jasnah. Not to reduce the conversation, I adjusted and went based on the new premise. Since a primary argument in favor of Kaladin was his skills as a fighter as the character kaladin and not as a generic windrunner, then so too to be fair, I felt we had to consider Jasnah's skills which I believe I have adequately related as being extensive. Every step of this thread I feel I have referenced either the book or WoB to support her skills and capabilities. That was for me, in an effort to portray this as scientifically as possible despite the subjective nature of some parts of this discussion. Personally I feel throwing variables in such as has been mentioned muddies the water needlessly. I do feel and maintain we can take the information from the book and WoB, and get an accurate picture of Kaladin's and Jasnah's capabilities, and how the powers function and what kind of stormlight out put we are talking. I think based on this picture we can conclude that Jasnah would hold a consistent enough advantage that this question has been resolved. I do not see a point to these percentages you are referring to. I am not saying this to be belittling, and I hope you do not take it in that way. I am saying I do not feel we learn anything from it. I personally love this thread because it has caused me to learn a whole lot more about soulcasting and lashing than i did before. It just so happens I feel what I have learned does (to me) support that Kaladin's skill set is ill suited against Jasnah's. 

 

1 hour ago, Karger said:

This is entirely reasonable but others may disagree.  For example early guns were often ditched in favor of swords as swords were more accurate and did not require difficult reloading. 

 

As to terrain assuming that it is an ambush what exactly is either party going to do? Their is no skill involved in cutting off the head of a sleeping opponent although I doubt Kaladin could do it.    If the two of them are leading armies against each other and they meet on the battlefield I am going to swing the fight Kaladin's way as he is better at small scale field tactics al la taking a brightlord off his throne.  Kaladin would get somone behind Jasnah and she would die with a knife in her back same as anyone else.  If the two of them face each other alone on an open field then Kaladin would have to be extraordinarily careful due to the large variety of attacks Jasnah can use against him.  He would have to get clever in order to win.  If they fight in Shadesmar my money is on Jasnah no question.  Kaladin does not know how to use the sea of beads.  Dito if they are fighting in the ruins of an old city.  Jasnah could see Kaladin but the inverse is not necessarily true.

So I covered that in my introductory paragraph to this post. In order to be fair to both parties, and get an unbiased as possible reading, then both parties should have equipment that is well cared for and in working order confirmed by a third party. The fact that an unbiased duel would have to be altered to such an extent in order to allow the swordmaster to prevail I think supports how unfavorable it is to take a sword to a gun fight. To me, to argue otherwise gets down to semantics. Like you said earlier in this thread. Vin could beat the lord ruler. But by using that example you are saying by extension that a normal mistborn could go toe to toe with the lord ruler which is simply not the case. Spoiler for mistborn

Spoiler

Vin had to be the chosen of preservation. she had to be fueled by the mists. the lord ruler had to be distracted or under estimate her.

All very unique, all very specific circumstances. The point of a scientific approach is to remove these variables and make a circumstance that can be repeated conclusively to arrive at the same results each time it is done. If the results gets skewed, then we must find what skewed the result. If it is because of a random problem (dirty equipment contaminating the solution), we do not count that as a valid conclusion. We clean the equipment and try again. 

It is because of all that that the situation presented is both combatants start a decent amount of space away. Lets say 15 to 20 feet perhaps. It is an open space which allows Kaladin to use his flight to his advantage. It is a plane flat surface in all directions so there isn't any barriers that either party could take advantage of that the other could not. it is only between both combatants. And finally both combatants can only use the abilities that each of a 5th oathed knight could have access to, i.e. sprenblade, two surges, and stormlight. They know each others capabilities. They can see each other. It is a clear day. There is a count down, and then the fight begins. Based on those perimeters, as I have said, I believe based on the information I have gleaned from the books and WoB, that Kaladin's skill set are ill suited to combating Jasnah's. 

 

Now that I have hopefully clarified how this all started, how I go about coming to my conclusions, and stating what my conclusions are, I feel I have neglected going over Oathbringer to finish my thread "Jasnah more than meets the eye". I got all the quotes down, but I have not had a chance to write down my thoughts because I have been keeping up on this thread. I feel I have said all I can really say on the topic, so I will leave this thread be, and focus on finishing my other one. I wish you all well. Feel free to continue as you all wish with no objection from me. No malice meant nor taken. 

Edited March 29, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

The only problem is that I and my fellow lightweavers would tell you that their is no such thing as objectivity.  Truth is subjective so arriving at something that is universally fair is impossible. 

[Pathfinder]

15 hours ago, Karger said:

The only problem is that I and my fellow lightweavers would tell you that their is no such thing as objectivity.  Truth is subjective so arriving at something that is universally fair is impossible. 

Lol and I as an elsecaller would say this

Way of Kings page 461

“I feel inadequate to draw conclusions, Brightness.”

“What is the point of research if not to draw conclusions?”

“My tutors told me that supposition was only for the very experienced,” Shallan explained.

Jasnah sniffed. “Your tutors were idiots. Youthful immaturity is one of the cosmere’s great catalysts for change, Shallan. Do you realize that the Sunmaker was only seventeen when he began his conquest? Gavarah hadn’t reached her twentieth Weeping when she proposed the theory of the three realms.”

“But for every Sunmaker or Gavarah, are there not a hundred Gregorhs?” He had been a youthful king notorious for beginning a pointless war with kingdoms that had been his father’s allies.

“There was only one Gregorh,” Jasnah said with a grimace, “thankfully. Your point is a valid one. Hence the purpose of education. To be young is about action. To be a scholar is about informed action.”

“Or about sitting in an alcove reading about a six-year-old murder.”

“I would not have you studying this if there were no point to it,” Jasnah said, opening up another of her own books. “Too many scholars think of research as purely a cerebral pursuit. If we do nothing with the knowledge we gain, then we have wasted our study. Books can store information better than we can—what we do that books cannot is interpret. So if one is not going to draw conclusions, then one might as well just leave the information in the texts.”

Edited March 30, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

10 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

oo many scholars think of research as purely a cerebral pursuit. If we do nothing with the knowledge we gain, then we have wasted our study. Books can store information better than we can—what we do that books cannot is interpret. So if one is not going to draw conclusions, then one might as well just leave the information in the texts.”

But we can't actually do anything with our conclusions either so by that logic this entire thread is useless.  My point was just that what you may consider fair and objective others might consider unfair and subjective.

Edited March 31, 2019 by Karger

[Pathfinder]

13 hours ago, Karger said:

But we can't actually do anything with our conclusions either so by that logic this entire thread is useless.  My point was just that what you may consider fair and objective others might consider unfair and subjective.

Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I dont understand your point. I feel this thread via the research and conclusions derived from that information accomplished its goal and was very much useful. I felt it caused myself and many others to learn things about gravitation, adhesion, transformation and transportation that we hadn't realized before. I also feel it caused us to learn more about kaladin as a person, and his capabilities as a windrunner. I also feel it caused us to learn more about jasnah as a person and her capabilities as an elsecaller.  I think that makes the conclusions I came to of value and that i have done much with them. Just like an episode of mythbusters will not enable someone to learn how to deflect bullets, the conclusions are of value because you leave the experience having learned new things and gained a greater understanding of how it functions. You are perfectly entitled to disagree and both your thoughts and mine can co-exist without issue.

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

On 3/29/2019 at 4:00 PM, Karger said:

This is entirely reasonable but others may disagree.  For example early guns were often ditched in favor of swords as swords were more accurate and did not require difficult reloading.

Early guns were discarded for melee weapons after they had been fired because reloading them took to long, not because they weren't effective. Accuracy matters little at short range, but the ability to kill someone from outside of arms reach is extremely valuable. Even within arms reach, it takes the same amount of time to draw a sword as it does a gun.

On 3/29/2019 at 4:00 PM, Karger said:

Kaladin would get somone behind Jasnah and she would die with a knife in her back same as anyone else.

I am very curious about how a knife in the back would hurt her more than the one that she took through the heart. I get that it wasn't meant to be a "real" scenario, but as an example it misses the mark by a very wide margin.

[Karger he/him]

47 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I am very curious about how a knife in the back would hurt her more than the one that she took through the heart. I get that it wasn't meant to be a "real" scenario, but as an example it misses the mark by a very wide margin.

My point was that their is little even a radiant can do against a well organized ambush by extraordinarily skilled opponents.  And we must remeber that that knife did put her out of commission for a while.  If her enemies had known what they were doing they would have kept stabbing her while she was down finishing her off.

[Calderis he/him]

17 minutes ago, Karger said:

My point was that their is little even a radiant can do against a well organized ambush by extraordinarily skilled opponents.  And we must remeber that that knife did put her out of commission for a while.  If her enemies had known what they were doing they would have kept stabbing her while she was down finishing her off.

No, that just means she wouldn't have feigned death painfully to hide her transition. She'd have just disappeared. 

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

5 hours ago, Calderis said:

She'd have just disappeared. 

Or killed them all casually with her Shardblade/soulcasting while healing from the trivial wounds they inflicted. (not correcting you, just offering alternatives :P)

6 hours ago, Karger said:

And we must remeber that that knife did put her out of commission for a while.

Shallan took a crossbow bolt to the head and kept on lightweaving (it did cause her words to slur, but it was likely just lodged in the part of her temporal lobe that controls speech). Dalinar rammed a sword the rest of the way through his chest and had a casual conversation with Fen's son.

Edit: Renarin got stomped on by a Thunderclast and jumped back up instantly.

Mistborn spoilers.

Spoiler

Rashek took two spears to the torso without any indication that he even noticed them. Any of the things that Mile's did while being mangled by an attack.

It's safe to say that people with access to Stormlight levels of healing are able to shrug off anything short of a Shardblade.

Edited March 31, 2019 by SwordNimiForPresident

[Pathfinder]

New WoB that answers whether or not a radiant soulcaster can soulcast directly from stormlight and what essences:

 

The Forumlurker (paraphrased)

If a Radiant tried to Soulcast directly with the Stormlight from the Highstorm, what essences could they create?

Brandon (paraphrased)

They could basically do whatever they want. There wouldn't be any limitations, but only for Radiant Soulcasters.

[Karger he/him]

On 5/24/2019 at 11:45 AM, Pathfinder said:

New WoB that answers whether or not a radiant soulcaster can soulcast directly from stormlight and what essences:

So unless they are fighting in the middle of a highstorm(which I understandably doubt although it does sound kind of cool) Jasnah might be limited in terms of what essences she can use.

[Calderis he/him]

3 minutes ago, Karger said:

So unless they are fighting in the middle of a highstorm(which I understandably doubt although it does sound kind of cool) Jasnah might be limited in terms of what essences she can use.

This is debated. I don't see why there should be any difference between the stormlight in the Highstorm and Stormlight held by a Radiant. Yes it was in a gem prior, but it isn't while it's held. And that "flavor" should be gone. The fact that you could overcome this "limitation" by either carrying varied gems or by pushing the stormlight into a different gem makes the idea that the stormlight somehow retains that "flavor" seem pretty unlikely, and worse irrelevant, to me. 

That said, I still think this could be a major limitation for Soulcasting of any significant size. The amount of stormlight a Radiant can hold is limited, and if the cost exceeds that they would have to draw on external gems, just as Shallan does when Soulcasting The Wind's Pleasure. 

Quote

“There is only one chance to save them,” Shallan said. “And that is to change.”
“Change,” Pattern whispered for the ship.
“If you change, they might escape the evil men who kill,” Shallan whispered. “It is uncertain, but they will have a chance to swim. To do something. You can do them a last service, Wind’s Pleasure. Change for them.”
Silence.
“I . . .”
Another light vanished.
“I will change.”
It happened in a hectic second; the Stormlight ripped from Shallan. She heard distant cracks from the physical world as she withdrew so much Light from the nearby gemstones that they shattered.

So while I don't think that the stormlight they hold is limited by Essence, I think this limitation will still be a major obstacle for any sizable Soulcasting. 

[Karger he/him]

24 minutes ago, Calderis said:

So while I don't think that the stormlight they hold is limited by Essence, I think this limitation will still be a major obstacle for any sizable Soulcasting. 

Great another question to ask brandon

[Pathfinder]

On 5/26/2019 at 0:55 PM, Karger said:

So unless they are fighting in the middle of a highstorm(which I understandably doubt although it does sound kind of cool) Jasnah might be limited in terms of what essences she can use.

Brandon makes a point to say only radiant soulcasters can do so. For me the WoB states the highstorm to account for large volumes of stormlight (as Calderis elaborated on). It states the soulcasting can be done directly from stormlight, no gems required. So to me that WoB is pretty open and shut. But I respect you disagree, and to each their own. 

[Karger he/him]

New question.  In a highstorm are both parties basically invincible?

[Pathfinder]

13 hours ago, Karger said:

New question.  In a highstorm are both parties basically invincible?

Well my first joke response is whoever can keep up with the highstorm wins lol. Anyone left behind and killed from afar would run out of stormlight and die. Now having said that, my serious response is if it is between two radiants of the same oath level, I think one can still be killed. It took a whole lot of stormlight for Kaladin to heal from the shardblade wound on his arm. Enough that since then he tries to avoid getting hit by shardblades as he is concerned he wouldn't have enough to heal it in the heat of battle. The immediate response to this would be "well in a highstorm the radiant would have unlimited stormlight to heal the wound". Which is very true, but I think a large part of that is where specifically is hit. I think if one radiant was able to dig his or her shard blade into the other radiant's head and keep it there, could result in the death of the radiant even if they are both in highstorms. The big things being the weapon being a shardblade, the wound being to the head, and the blade staying in the head till the "self" has fully left the body. At least that is what I think happens.