Jasnah V Kaladin

[Karger he/him]

26 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Tossing rocks with it is a waste

That is my point it does not seem likely to take that much stormlight to lash a pebble with some real speed considering what he has done with larger objects.

[Calderis he/him]

58 minutes ago, Karger said:

That is my point it does not seem likely to take that much stormlight to lash a pebble with some real speed considering what he has done with larger objects.

Considering the things we've seen healed, from skull lodged crossbow bolts, to crushed legs, to sword thrusts through the torso, what essentially amounts to a bullet isn't going to accomplish much. 

The bigger the item the more stormlight, and we're also relying on gravity completely which means either telegraphing your shot as it accelerates, or multilashing at a higher cost. 

If you have plate, you can throw a head size rock like a pro pitcher for nothing 

Edited March 13, 2019 by Calderis

[Karger he/him]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

Considering the things we've seen healed, from skull lodged crossbow bolts, to crushed legs, to sword thrusts through the torso, what essentially amounts to a bullet isn't going to accomplish much. 

If you can weaken or distract them enough for a shard beheading then it is still useful. 

[Pathfinder]

Ok, got a whole lot to catch up on. I am going to try and organize my responses somehow lol. First, i have done some of my research so far and found a lot of interesting information! I think I am going to list that info below, and then respond to individual points that that information did not cover. Then I will continue with my research and follow up with further conclusions when completed. 

So first some of my findings!

Oathbringer page 1038

Renarin asks what kind of gemstones are housed in the reserve. He is told standard size. Now we know this is a lie to a degree because of the presence of Honor's Drop, but we learn that is the exception, not the rule. Interesting side note about this scene is it implies that even then Renarin knew what was going to happen to the reserve, and that Odium was going to target it. 

Oathbringer page 1059

Rysn confirms that the gemstones in the reserve are normal sized and most are not infused. The notable exception is the King's Drop which later changes hands and is given to Dalinar. So most of the gemstones start dun.

Oathbringer page 1066

Side note, we see a fused heal! I could have sworn I read here or elsewhere that people theorize that fused cannot heal because Kaladin ran one through with his blade, but Rysn confirms they can because she watched one heal the wounds on its face. Now potentially it could be a regrowth fused that had an illusion placed on it by a illumination fused, but I lean towards it being an illusion user that can also heal. 

Oathbringer page 1096

The thunderlcast destroys the reserve scattering the gemstones across the city, the wall and beyond. As per the map of Thaylenah, the reserve was located next to/near the wall, so it makes sense that its destruction would fling the gemstones in the immediate area, the wall, and the shore. 

Oathbringer page 1128

The Thrill is at the northern portion of the battle field, confirmed by the Thaylenah map. This is of note because that is where Dalinar ends up and by extension Kaladin.

Oathbringer page 1138

This is a big scene that I think will change a lot of what many of you think regarding soulcasting. Renarin and Jasnah together start at the temple of Pailah. That is on the east most side of the city near the oathgate. They run (with stormlight) from there allllllll the way to the low ward. When they get there we see Jasnah soulcast a man into crystal by touching him and throwing him back. He then hits another man, turning him into crystal which throws him back, which then hits another man turning him to crystal. She then slices 6 men with her blade, and soulcasts a wall of the building behind her to smoke to cause it to collapse, blocking an alley where other soldiers were approaching. She then raises her hand, and soulcasts steps out of air while running up to to get to the rooftop of the next building. Now @Calderis your responses so far have been "if it is during the perpendicularity, I don't count it". Well what is interesting is this was before the perpendicularity took effect! Everything Jasnah did was from Renarin's perspective. So accomplished all of that and then Renarin felt the supercharge from the perpendicularity. And it is not even a happen at the same time occurrence. They ran up, Jasnah did all that soulcasting and killing, and then after she ran up the steps she soulcasted from air and got to the next building, then Renarin feels it. So there is a definite sequence to the events. The next scene switches to Navani that then sees all the gemstones spark to life across the field, the top of the wall, and the street below.

Oathbringer page 1141

This is from Dalinar's perspective and indicates the power has faded. It makes a point to mention how it was fortunate that the field was covered in gemstones. So the stormlight now available is finite. Dalinar is not continually recharging all radiants. They got an initial charge up, and now they have a wealth of gemstones, that we later see is apparently not enough because it does get burned through. Jasnah, Renarin, Kaladin, Shallan, Szeth, Lift, and Adolin all join Dalinar on the coast. I am making a point to list where everyone is at what time because I think it will give us an indication on the level of stormlight that would be available from person to person. Dalinar orders Renarin to the oathgate which is on the other side of the city. He orders Shallan to remain where she is to lightweave an army on the coast in front of the wall. He orders Jasnah to hold the wall. He orders Kaladin to guard him. Since the Thrill is the northside of the coast that is where they will spend the majority of their time. 

Oathbringer page 1145

Kaladin lashes himself up into the air, Then lashes himself down towards Amaram so he can crack the ground as he lands. This is where I got up to. I am going to continue when I can to list where Kaladin, Shallan, and Jasnah were at what time, and what they used their stormlight for as since they had a finite amount to draw upon, I think we can attempt to get a broad estimate of usage. 

 

17 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Sorry that is a misunderstanding. Sylphrena can fly pretty fast. Searching a large area is possible to her. Jasnah, however, can observe Shadesmar while in the PR, so Kaladin could not approach her undetected, nor could Syl.

But we have a scene (The Recreance) where Knights Radiant materialize. They must have come from somewhere.

Kaladin uses Stormlight for movement. If Kaladin walks, he gives up a lot of his advantages. I suppose the orders who do that (Skybreakers, Windrunners, Edgedancers, Dustbringers)are likely to use more fuel than those who use their powers only for a specific effect.

If you are talking about the Feverstone Keep scene, the knights on the ground did not appear out of no where, they advanced on foot. Then windrunners flew in and landed. I do not recall any knights appearing out of no where in that scene. Are you referring to the scene where Dalinar fights the Midnight essence? That also has a windrunner flying in, and we see later from the other knights perspective that the knight with the healing fabrial did not have her armor on, so that the windrunner could lash her to fly with her to the location. So I am not sure what scene you are referring to. 

15 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

We can discuss based on conjecture. Yes we have narrative proof that as it stands Jasnah has been shown to be way more conservative with her stormlight usage. But let's put that into context. How long has Jasnah had the use of her Surges? At least 6 years. Kaladin has had his probably just short of 1 year.  At this point in the narrative Jasnah has a great understanding of her capabilities, Kaladin leans on instincts. It's not worth discussing the possibility that Kaladin can grow in his understanding? Kaladin already has the impetus to do better, Thaylen City taught him that just flinging Stormlight around isn't going to be enough. He'd have died without Rock's timely use of a Shardbow. We've also seen in the narrative how hard Kaladin trains, both with the spear and defense against Shardbearers. Why would he give any less effort to learning how to manage his Surges? It's no different than projecting how Lyft will develop when she gets older.

I'm sure that I've already stated that if they fought today Jasnah would wipe the floor with our favorite bridgeman. That's why I proposed to make the contest more even. It's why I set the conditions as both being full Radiants with an equal amount of initial Stormlight and both have Blade and Plate. Even with all things being equal I see Jasnah winning more than she loses. 

I'm going to leave dodging alone as I'm not sure I'd be able to convince you of how devastating a thrown projectile in the hands of a Radiant wearing Plate could potentially be. I think that even with enhanced reflexes dancing past everything is unrealistic but obviously you and others think differently. 

Let me ask you something. I took Kaladin's side as sort of a thought exercise as to how he could potentially win a powered fight with Jasnah. I saw a path to victory for Kaladin. Can you picture a scenario where Kaladin has a chance or is it 100% Jasnah for you? Curious.

Thing is there are plenty of times Kaladin nearly dies from overusing stormlight yet he didn't change the practice then. He overused stormlight and nearly died with he drew all the arrows to his shield. He overused stormlight and nearly died when he leapt the chasm to protect bridge 4 from the parshendi. He overused stormlight and nearly died when he fought against Szeth for the first time. He overused stormlight when getting from the warcamps to narak to fight szeth that he needed to be "refueled" by the bridgemen. He overused stormlight when he traveled to hearthstone. He overused stormlight and nearly died when they were in shadesmar. He literally ran out before he realized and fell into the beads nearly drowning. I do not see any instance where Kaladin is learning to be more conservative. So why would Rock saving him by killing Amaram be any different?

Like I said regarding the projectile I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

I think the problem is the power set of the windrunners. Except for lashing objects (which the problems with that others have gone into and I will comment on further below), windrunners are largely melee fighters which does lend Jasnah an advantage. I have broken down by order what I could see happening below

Dustbringer - I think this order and Skybreakers potentially have the best chances because of division. It would be down to who is quicker on the draw. The dustbringer could potentially super heat the air around Jasnah before she could soulcast aluminum dust. That would cook her potentially faster than she could heal and kill her.

Skybreaker - Same as dustbringer

Lightweaver - although they could also soulcast, in a soulcast vs soulcast battle I think I would give it to Jasnah because Elsecallers seem to be better equipped in using it. The lightweaver could use illusions, but Jasnah could use aluminum dust to disrupt and dispel them. So I would give this to Jasnah

Truthwatcher - Suffers from the same problem as the lightweaver, and in this case regrowth wouldn't really help if trapped in an aluminum box

Stoneward - Could potentially turn the ground to liquid and seal her in before she can soulcast, but Jasnah could just teleport out or soulcast the ground to air which the stoneward would be unable to change. Then Jasnah could soulcast him into an aluminum box.

Willshaper - I think this would be a win depending on how much more proficient in teleportation they are. A willshaper could theoretically teleport right up to Jasnah and run the shardblade right through the eye slit of the armor killing her before she could soulcast aluminum.

Edgedancer - would have the same issue as the truthwatcher. Healing and abrasion would require getting up close. Soulcast aluminum box

Bondsmith - no idea whether or not if this order could limit other orders abilities. I think it may if it can also supercharge them, but don't know enough to adequately comment

 

15 hours ago, Calderis said:

In these discussions, when trying to determine cost/expenditure of stormlight, I really think using anything from Thaylen field from anyone save Lift is pointless. 

The gem reserve was scattered everywhere and the Perp charged everything. Cost was not a concern for anyone with the ability to infuse. 

The quotes I have posted above disagree with this. 

15 hours ago, Karger said:

Much harder to soulcast also aluminum dust could be moved by a wind caused with surgebinding.

Agreed and I am going further and saying that anything that happens at that battlefield should almost certainly be taken with a grain of salt what with everything happening there.

Also why is Kaladin manually throwing rocks?  We saw him move a giant bolder that was comming right at him back at the thunderclast with lashings using a supply of stormlight he was physically carrying.  Doing so did not drain his stormlight reserves to the point where he could not fight during the rest of the long battle and he still had some left over during shademar travel.  Also why does he have to break off chunks of rocks?  To paraphrase prime Taln "We are on Roshar their are rocks."  The size of the rocks is pretty much immaterial just lash them at Jasnah and hope some of them hit.

Thing is, is summoning the windspren is what creates the wind? if so, then he could not as the aluminum dust would interfere with them. 

All the radiants received the same super charge. All the radiants (potentially as I am going over each scene) had the same access to stormlight. if you increase everyone equally in power, with the same equal increase in resources, then they still are at the same equal level they were at prior to the increase. 

The reason Kaladin had enough stormlight is they had gemstones from the Kholin reserve and when they transfered over the shadesmar they express the concern that they are running low and have to ration it. 

As to rocks, we are on roshar where crem builds up and basically glues anything sitting out to the ground. lashing would require stormlight which would deplete Kaladin's stores, and it would require a greater number of lashings to accelerate it enough to do any actual damage. 

14 hours ago, Karger said:

That is my point it does not seem likely to take that much stormlight to lash a pebble with some real speed considering what he has done with larger objects.

The velocity of a falling object depends on the air resistance, its mass, and the distance it has to travel to accelerate. A single lashing changes the direct of the gravitational pull. So a pebble lashed once in Jasnah's direction would travel the same way if someone just let it go from the top of a building. For additional speed you would need addition lashes. lashes appear to be multiplicative, not compounding. So if we have a 5 pound rock, then 1 lashing would send that 5 pound rock towards her. two lashings would have it fall like a 10 pound rock, three like a 15 pound rock and etc (these are all rough estimates based on the information provided). It does not however function compounding. So you would not get the effect of a 5 pound rock lashed twice being 10, then lashed a third lash being 20, then a fourth being 40 and so on. A bullet travels at 2,600 feet per second roughly. Now calculating that for a 5 pound rock falling 2,600 feet, and then figuring out how much faster it would have to travel to attain a bullets speed is beyond me, but it looks to me that it would take far more than three lashings to get it that fast.  

13 hours ago, Calderis said:

Considering the things we've seen healed, from skull lodged crossbow bolts, to crushed legs, to sword thrusts through the torso, what essentially amounts to a bullet isn't going to accomplish much. 

The bigger the item the more stormlight, and we're also relying on gravity completely which means either telegraphing your shot as it accelerates, or multilashing at a higher cost. 

If you have plate, you can throw a head size rock like a pro pitcher for nothing 

i agree on all points

13 hours ago, Karger said:

If you can weaken or distract them enough for a shard beheading then it is still useful. 

I think the argument myself and @Calderis are making is that it would not be enough to weaken nor distract sufficiently to accomplish what you posit. 

Edited March 13, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

11 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Thing is, is summoning the windspren is what creates the wind? if so, then he could not as the aluminum dust would interfere with them. 

No I am pretty sure he is using the surge of adhesion(vacuum and pressure) which can create wind and would not be effected by aluminum anymore then a soulcast blade would disperse if you hit an aluminum shield with it.

12 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The velocity of a falling object depends on the air resistance, its mass, and the distance it has to travel to accelerate

The force the speed only depends on acceleration due to gravity and wind resistance.  When Kaladin uses a single lashing he is (assuming he weighs 55Kg and accelerates at .7g) outputting 38.5N for several minutes without worrying to much about stormlight. A bullet leaving of a high power shotgun is 5338N.  I am assuming he only needs to output this force for 1 second.  38.5/5338 is about .008 that means he needs to output about 120 times as much force but only over one second as apposed to several minutes,  Basically my calculations show that lashing a rock a bullet speed is about like flying for a minute or two assuming proportionality.  (We don't actually know if it is somehow more or less efficient to use a double lashing as apposed to a single so I am just going to say that a double lashing costs 2x as much as a single one).

[Pathfinder]

13 minutes ago, Karger said:

No I am pretty sure he is using the surge of adhesion(vacuum and pressure) which can create wind and would not be effected by aluminum anymore then a soulcast blade would disperse if you hit an aluminum shield with it.

The force the speed only depends on acceleration due to gravity and wind resistance.  When Kaladin uses a single lashing he is (assuming he weighs 55Kg and accelerates at .7g) outputting 38.5N for several minutes without worrying to much about stormlight. A bullet leaving of a high power shotgun is 5338N.  I am assuming he only needs to output this force for 1 second.  38.5/5338 is about .008 that means he needs to output about 120 times as much force but only over one second as apposed to several minutes,  Basically my calculations show that lashing a rock a bullet speed is about like flying for a minute or two assuming proportionality.  (We don't actually know if it is somehow more or less efficient to use a double lashing as apposed to a single so I am just going to say that a double lashing costs 2x as much as a single one).

Aluminum disrupts investiture. So if it is the surge of adhesion, to the best of my knowledge, Kaladin would be unable to use the surge on the dust because he would be surrounded in it. But I think this is a point we will have to agree to disagree because this has not occurred on screen nor referenced in WoB for us to have a definitive answer on. 

Honestly your calculations confuse me. When Szeth and Kaladin lash an object, the amount of stormlight needed is affected by three things:

1. how many lashings is put into the object. the more lashings, the greater amount of stormlight

2. how large the object is (the larger the object the more stormlight needed to power a single lash)

3. how long the object remains lashed. the longer you want it lashed, the more stormlight needed

So you are saying Kaladin would put multiple lashings on the object enough for it to travel fast enough to break the sound barrier to travel the distance from Kaladin to Jasnah in 1 second (the numbers you provided ) would not take obscene amounts of stormlight? If that is what you are saying then either I have no understanding of velocity at all, or something is up with your calculations because that makes no sense to me. Could you explain it a bit more?

[Karger he/him]

Alright one step at a time.  I am making the assumption that giving an object a double lashing takes1/2 of stormlight as a single lashing.  I know we don't know this to be true for a fact but it seems reasonable.

I am also assuming that an object half as big will take half the amount of stormlight to lash.

I looked up the amount of force imparted by a bullet and found it at 5338N

I calculated the force imparted by the single lashing Kaladin uses on himself to fly by looking up Rosharan gravity and estimating Kaladin's weight.  Mass*Acceleration gives force which I found as 38.5N.

The bullet through this calculation 5338N/38.5N is found to have almost exactly 138.65 times greater force then Kaladin but Kaladin often flies for minutes on end and it does not burn through his stormlight particularly quickly.

1N=1Kg*1m/s^2

[+Oltux72 he/him]

33 minutes ago, Karger said:

I looked up the amount of force imparted by a bullet and found it at 5338N

I calculated the force imparted by the single lashing Kaladin uses on himself to fly by looking up Rosharan gravity and estimating Kaladin's weight.  Mass*Acceleration gives force which I found as 38.5N.

The bullet through this calculation 5338N/38.5N is found to have almost exactly 138.65 times greater force then Kaladin but Kaladin often flies for minutes on end and it does not burn through his stormlight particularly quickly.

That kind of reasoning won't work. Windrunners mess with gravity. The force he exerts is proprtional to the mass of the object he lashes. Even if you assume a tenfold lashing in a vacuum, it would take five seconds for a projectile to come close to the speed of sound. During that time the object would travel over 500m. A Windrunner is not a gun. He is a trebuchet.

[Karger he/him]

try a 100fold lashing remember this is only to a small pebble not a large bolder.  Actually giving a bolder a tenfold lashing could make it hit someone like a moving train and bulldoze them Kaladin might want to give that a try.

Edited March 13, 2019 by Karger

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Alright one step at a time.  I am making the assumption that giving an object a double lashing takes1/2 of stormlight as a single lashing.  I know we don't know this to be true for a fact but it seems reasonable.

I am also assuming that an object half as big will take half the amount of stormlight to lash.

I looked up the amount of force imparted by a bullet and found it at 5338N

I calculated the force imparted by the single lashing Kaladin uses on himself to fly by looking up Rosharan gravity and estimating Kaladin's weight.  Mass*Acceleration gives force which I found as 38.5N.

The bullet through this calculation 5338N/38.5N is found to have almost exactly 138.65 times greater force then Kaladin but Kaladin often flies for minutes on end and it does not burn through his stormlight particularly quickly.

1N=1Kg*1m/s^2

Why would a double lashing take half the stormlight? Wouldn't it take twice the amount? I am confused regarding this. Are you referring to a half lashing? For me it would make sense that if you add additional lashings to an object, you are increasing the amount of stormlight you use. So one lashing takes up a certain amount of stormlight. Two lashings take double the stormlight. Three takes three times as much stormlight, and so on. So I really am perplexed how it would take less. 

Ok first point I agree with. The smaller the object, the less stormlight needed for a lashing

Ok, won't dispute about the amount of force by a bullet

This I disagree with as I will illustrate from further quotes from Oathbringer. Kaladin flew a little bit, lashed two stones, and healed two or three wounds, and ended up exhausting the stormlight in his area. Shallan sustained an army of hundreds to thousands and drained the field she is in. Jasnah got low after soulcasting the wall space into bronze, the air into stairs, the air into oil and set it on fire, then the left over oil to smoke. I feel like there is another thing she does before she comments she is low but I have to check. Then she still has some to bring to Shallan who is empty. I still have to go a bit further before I want to post the rest of the findings, but Kaladin does burn through stormlight while flying. Also if we reference his travel to Hearthstone, he was given a wealth of gemstones yet he still fell shy of his target. 

Thing is, from my understanding, you would have to increase the force of gravity on the stone to not only reach Kaladin's level, but then be 138 times more than Kaladin to reach the kind of velocity you are saying a bullet sustains. So that to me still uses massive amounts of stormlight. In my research we do actually see Kaladin lash stones at enemies. it is twice. Once to hit a fused on the back of the head and it only causes it a degree of pain enough to fly away. No knocking out, or real damage. The book says he used several lashings to do that. The other time is to get Amaram's horse to run away. I really do not think you are going to get the railgun effect you are thinking without using massive amounts of stormlight. 

16 minutes ago, Karger said:

try a 100fold lashing remember this is only to a small pebble not a large bolder.  Actually giving a bolder a tenfold lashing could make it hit someone like a moving train and bulldoze them Kaladin might want to give that a try.

And a 100 fold lashing would be using 100 times the amount of stormlight to lash an object in a direction. How would that not massively deplete Kaladin's reserve? Same thing for a bolder. Szeth drained his stormlight quite a bit with one lashing on a boulder. Multiple that by 10 and I still do not see how Kaladin would not use a lot of stormlight in that example. 

Edited March 13, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

Just now, Pathfinder said:

Why would a double lashing take half the stormlight? Wouldn't it take twice the amount?

That is what I meant it was a typo

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

Two lashings take double the stormlight. Three takes three times as much stormlight, and so on. So I really am perplexed how it would take less. 

We don't know this for a fact but it seems like a reasonable conjecture.

6 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Kaladin flew a little bit, lashed two stones, and healed two or three wounds, and ended up exhausting the stormlight in his area

  Healing injuries is probably the real cause of his stormlight depletion in this scenario not the flying or lashing he has lost blood and is replenishing mass that takes a lot.  We saw 2nd ideal Kaladin fly for several hours during his training montage to fight the assassin in white in book 2.  A couple minutes worth of the the amount of stormlight it takes him to fly should be the amount of force that it takes to lash a rock about with about 138 lashings.

 

[Pathfinder]

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

That is what I meant it was a typo

We don't know this for a fact but it seems like a reasonable conjecture.

  Healing injuries is probably the real cause of his stormlight depletion in this scenario not the flying or lashing he has lost blood and is replenishing mass that takes a lot.  We saw 2nd ideal Kaladin fly for several hours during his training montage to fight the assassin in white in book 2.  A couple minutes worth of the the amount of stormlight it takes him to fly should be the amount of force that it takes to lash a rock about with about 138 lashings.

 

Sorry didn't see your comment about a typo.

True we do not know it for a fact, but I think I will try and dig a bit to see if we can have any indication across the books to lend it credence. 

The injuries involve two broken feet, and an arrow wound so I do not feel that would be enough to vastly deplete his stormlight by itself. I just read it but I want to go over it again to be sure, but it is after he gets hit directly by a fused and is sent flying that he then realizes how much stormlight he has used. I believe that is the first time he was hit by that fused (there was twice), but I want to confirm the order. When I review it I will pay closer attention to the injuries sustained. 

[Karger he/him]

I also would like to point out that the area close to Dalinar that Kaladin is in likely has less gemstones then Jasnah or Shallahn as he is further from the bank where they(the gemstones) started.

[Pathfinder]

6 minutes ago, Karger said:

I also would like to point out that the area close to Dalinar that Kaladin is in likely has less gemstones then Jasnah or Shallahn as he is further from the bank where they(the gemstones) started.

Still got more digging to do but I am realizing something we are all forgetting. Every change of direction requires a new lashing. Just the beginning of the fight with Amaram required six different lashes. A lashing takes you in one direction on one path. Any change or deviation requires a new lashing and the dismissal of the prior lashing. 

I referenced the scene in my earlier post with the page number. Please give it a read. The Thunderclast was pissed and laid waste to the whole building scattering the gemstones all over those three locations.

[Quantus he/him]

6 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Still got more digging to do but I am realizing something we are all forgetting. Every change of direction requires a new lashing. Just the beginning of the fight with Amaram required six different lashes. A lashing takes you in one direction on one path. Any change or deviation requires a new lashing and the dismissal of the prior lashing. 

I referenced the scene in my earlier post with the page number. Please give it a read. The Thunderclast was pissed and laid waste to the whole building scattering the gemstones all over those three locations.

Question:  Does dismissing a Lashing (as opposed to letting it run down on its own) recover the Stormlight used?  Lightweavers can recover the Stormlight used in an illusion so they dont burn through their supply as quickly, does Gravitation work similarly?

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Thing is there are plenty of times Kaladin nearly dies from overusing stormlight yet he didn't change the practice then. He overused stormlight and nearly died with he drew all the arrows to his shield. He overused stormlight and nearly died when he leapt the chasm to protect bridge 4 from the parshendi. He overused stormlight and nearly died when he fought against Szeth for the first time. He overused stormlight when getting from the warcamps to narak to fight szeth that he needed to be "refueled" by the bridgemen. He overused stormlight when he traveled to hearthstone. He overused stormlight and nearly died when they were in shadesmar. He literally ran out before he realized and fell into the beads nearly drowning. I do not see any instance where Kaladin is learning to be more conservative. So why would Rock saving him by killing Amaram be any different?

2 things with this. Familiarity with powers and effeciency of Stormlight usage. The very first instances you mentioned, Kaladin was just learning that he could use Stormlight for these things he was doing. Without a guide he was pretty much fumbling along. I haven't read WoK in awhile but he hadn't even spoken Ideal 1 until the middle of his fight with the Parshendi if I recall correctly. Afterwards he was sneaking in practice sessions in between his other time-consuming duties. He was only on Ideal 2 at the time he first fought Szeth, and that's with his bond weakened. Everything up until the end of WoR was him operating on the 2nd Ideal. The Hearthstone one almost doesn't count as he flew on Stormlight for approximately 2 days. This was before he learned the highstorm Flight trick, you know, since they were in the middle of a Weeping. The Shadesmar incident shouldn't count for much either since it wasn't a fighting situation 1 and 2 he had already expended much in the castle assault. He'd never been to Shadesmar, how would he know he'd need Stormlight there?

When he nearly ran out at Thaylen Field, that's the first time he had enough understanding of his powers to realize that he really should try to be more conservative. That's the first time I see in the narrative that he actually pays attention to his fuel gauge. That's the encouraging sign to me. And I still don't think you're taking into account the amount of time he's actually had access to his powers. He's knocking down these oaths pretty quickly but using the powers well isn't always intuitive, especially when you have a spren who isn't allowed to tell you what your capabilities are. To put this into perspective, Jasnah has held her powers for 6 years, yet it took until she was nearly assassinated before she got even a moderate level of proficiency with her Transportation surge, 5 or so years in. If you think she didn't fumble a little her first year with access to Soulcasting then I think you're holding to unrealistic expectations. 

I haven't even mentioned the Stormlight efficiency increase with additional Oaths. On Oath 3 Kaladin was able to transverse nearly half of Alethkar. On Oath 5 Kaladin would probably be able to make that trip and back to Urithiru several times before running out, even without flying on the edge of a Highstorm. It either takes him less Stormlight to perform an action or his fuel tank is bigger.

 

[Pathfinder]

9 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Question:  Does dismissing a Lashing (as opposed to letting it run down on its own) recover the Stormlight used?  Lightweavers can recover the Stormlight used in an illusion so they dont burn through their supply as quickly, does Gravitation work similarly?

Honestly I do not know, but I definitely think it is a question we should be asking, and I would love to find out the answer lol. 

7 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

2 things with this. Familiarity with powers and effeciency of Stormlight usage. The very first instances you mentioned, Kaladin was just learning that he could use Stormlight for these things he was doing. Without a guide he was pretty much fumbling along. I haven't read WoK in awhile but he hadn't even spoken Ideal 1 until the middle of his fight with the Parshendi if I recall correctly. Afterwards he was sneaking in practice sessions in between his other time-consuming duties. He was only on Ideal 2 at the time he first fought Szeth, and that's with his bond weakened. Everything up until the end of WoR was him operating on the 2nd Ideal. The Hearthstone one almost doesn't count as he flew on Stormlight for approximately 2 days. This was before he learned the highstorm Flight trick, you know, since they were in the middle of a Weeping. The Shadesmar incident shouldn't count for much either since it wasn't a fighting situation 1 and 2 he had already expended much in the castle assault. He'd never been to Shadesmar, how would he know he'd need Stormlight there?

When he nearly ran out at Thaylen Field, that's the first time he had enough understanding of his powers to realize that he really should try to be more conservative. That's the first time I see in the narrative that he actually pays attention to his fuel gauge. That's the encouraging sign to me. And I still don't think you're taking into account the amount of time he's actually had access to his powers. He's knocking down these oaths pretty quickly but using the powers well isn't always intuitive, especially when you have a spren who isn't allowed to tell you what your capabilities are. To put this into perspective, Jasnah has held her powers for 6 years, yet it took until she was nearly assassinated before she got even a moderate level of proficiency with her Transportation surge, 5 or so years in. If you think she didn't fumble a little her first year with access to Soulcasting then I think you're holding to unrealistic expectations. 

I haven't even mentioned the Stormlight efficiency increase with additional Oaths. On Oath 3 Kaladin was able to transverse nearly half of Alethkar. On Oath 5 Kaladin would probably be able to make that trip and back to Urithiru several times before running out, even without flying on the edge of a Highstorm. It either takes him less Stormlight to perform an action or his fuel tank is bigger.

 

The Shadesmar most certainly counts in my opinion. He fought the fused at the Thaylenah oathgate. They had the stormlight from the Kholin gemstone reserve that they brought with them to Kholinar. They didn't use much of it while in the city because using his surges would attract the screamers. When they got into Shadesmar he had to be reminded to conserve his stormlight because they did not have a means to replenish it. When they reached the oathgate in shadesmar, they went over their supplies so they knew exactly how much stormlight they had to work with before engaging the fused there. Yet still Kaladin burned through it and ended up exhausting it midbattle and fell into the beads nearly drowning. Despite this, he still gets carried away in Thaylenah and has to get wacked by a fused before he looks around and realizes how much he drained the area. That scene can be found on page 1174 of oathbringer. Please give it a read. He was not actively thinking of how much stormlight he was using, till it was mostly gone. 

[Karger he/him]

He was distracting 4 different fused with an incredibly limited amount of stomrlight as they gave most of it to Shallahn to work the oathgate.  I also think although I can't prove it that storlight usage is less efficient in shadesmar. 

[Pathfinder]

34 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Question:  Does dismissing a Lashing (as opposed to letting it run down on its own) recover the Stormlight used?  Lightweavers can recover the Stormlight used in an illusion so they dont burn through their supply as quickly, does Gravitation work similarly?

I just had a memory that may answer this! I will need to check (added to the massive list of things I have to check), but I seem to recall Szeth during the contest with the other skybreakers remark that he burned through his stormlight faster than the other skybreakers because he changed direction so often and suddenly. So potentially dismissing an existing lashing, in exchange for a new lashing could have depreciating returns. I believe Shallan remarks on the same. That she was unable to reclaim all of the stormlight. Even more than would have been burned off from its use. 

10 minutes ago, Karger said:

He was distracting 4 different fused with an incredibly limited amount of stomrlight as they gave most of it to Shallahn to work the oathgate.  I also think although I can't prove it that storlight usage is less efficient in shadesmar. 

The point remains he knew he had a limited amount but he did not keep track of it nor ration it, which is the point that bigmikey is trying to make. That Kaladin would ration his supply to outlast Jasnah. 

Hmmm, personally I do not think that is the case. I think if stormlight was less efficient in shadesmar, Shallan or Kaladin would have remarked on it as they did use it, but we have nothing to definitively support either side, so I wish you luck with your theory!

[Karger he/him]

I just checked Oathbringer and it seems that as you use stormlight for long periods of time it gets harder to use.  Also at Theylan field Kal is locked in combat with someone bonded to an unmade with several fused coming in at intervals to reinforce his opponent.  He is not trying to win he is trying to survive long enough to protect Dalinar so burning through stormlight quickly is actually a smart strategy.  He was not playing to win he is playing for time if he max burns stormlight their is no chance he will die and Dalinar will be defenseless until he runs out.  If he does not max burn their is a chance he will die and Dalinar will be killed sooner.  Max burning against Jasnah would be stupid as he has the advantage in a protracted fight especially if they both run out of stormlight.

Edited March 13, 2019 by Karger

[Pathfinder]

15 minutes ago, Karger said:

I just checked Oathbringer and it seems that as you use stormlight for long periods of time it gets harder to use.  Also at Theylan field Kal is locked in combat with someone bonded to an unmade with several fused coming in at intervals to reinforce his opponent.  He is not trying to win he is trying to survive long enough to protect Dalinar so burning through stormlight quickly is actually a smart strategy.  He was not playing to win he is playing for time if he max burns stormlight their is no chance he will die and Dalinar will be defenseless until he runs out.  If he does not max burn their is a chance he will die and Dalinar will be killed sooner.  Max burning against Jasnah would be stupid as he has the advantage in a protracted fight especially if they both run out of stormlight.

Could you reference scenes that lead you to believe that? Page number please? Always love to learn something new. I do not recall seeing that.

edit: are you meaning they become exhausted? Because then yes I agree, but I do not recall actual stormlight usage becoming harder. 

From what I recall of Kaladin defending Dalinar, he reasons to himself that he needs to outlast Amaram and the fused to protect Dalinar to do what he needs to do. That if he focused on defeating Amaram, the fused would then attack Dalinar. If he focused on the fused, then Amaram would attack. So from what I recall it is the reverse of what you are saying. Kaladin would actually want to conserve his stormlight so he can last long enough for reinforcements (which is what ultimately happened). That would just reinforce my argument further in my opinion that twice when he feels he really needs to watch his usage, he still gets carried away both times. But I will need to jump back to the book to find the page number where Kaladin thinks that for your reference. 

Edited March 13, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

edit: are you meaning they become exhausted? Because then yes I agree, but I do not recall actual stormlight usage becoming harder. 

It is in the Spear that would not break during Kaladin's fight with Amaram 4400 on the e copy sorry the paragraph starts with "Keep moving"

Kaladin's reasoning (which I agree with) from what I just reviewed is that he needs to stay on his feet for a while.  He can't duck and weave or try and think of a clever way of killing his enemies he just has to do enough damage that he is to dangerous for the fused or Amaram to ignore.

[+Child of Hodor]

Are we talking like a Radiant duel or are they actually fighting to the death? If it's a real fight to the death then, as they currently stand, Kaladin would lose because he'd freak out having to fight an ally / former ally. Even though Jasnah couldn't bring herself to kill Renarin I think she is ruthless enough to kill Kaladin.

If it's a duel or a fight where Kaladin isn't conflicted I think Jasnah would win because she is more experienced by 6 years or so and will use her soulcasting in ways that he's won't expect because he hasn't seen much soulcasting.  Plus her plate blocks his lashing.

Kaladin struggles with Amaran/Yelig-nar when Amagnar soulcasts the ground into mud and then back to stone. 

Kaladin can't lash her to the sky and end the fight in 5 seconds because of her plate. The Nahel bond might give Kaladin some resistance to her soulcasting, but I'm doubtful. Jasnah soulcast a bunch of Sadeas soldiers who had spren in them. Not the same as the nahel bond, but they had investiture in them to make their eyes glow red and it didn't resist her. Kaladin was able to lash a Fused to the sky and that Fused had Voidlight and is a Cognitive Shadow which is made of investiture, but the investiture didn't resist Kaladin's lashing. 

In general, I think the windrunner powers are more combat useful because manipulating gravity is tough to top as a combat skill. Coming at an opponent from any angle, lashing them all around, lashing large objects at them etc. 

Soulcasting is awesome in and out of combat, Transportation seems to allow her hurl people through the air, she appears to do this in the battle of Thaylen city off screen. Adolin sees a soldier fly out of an alleyway and then Adolin sees Jasnah in the alley.  

Spoiler

"A soldier with red eyes suddenly hurtled through the air overhead ... Adolin peeked around the corner, expecting to find another stone monster like the one that had climbed into the Ancient Ward. Instead, he found only Jasnah Kholin." OB Ch. 120

 

 

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

It is in the Spear that would not break during Kaladin's fight with Amaram 4400 on the e copy sorry the paragraph starts with "Keep moving"

Kaladin's reasoning (which I agree with) from what I just reviewed is that he needs to stay on his feet for a while.  He can't duck and weave or try and think of a clever way of killing his enemies he just has to do enough damage that he is to dangerous for the fused or Amaram to ignore.

Is this another typo? I am confused again. In your prior post you said Kaladin would want to use his powers in strong bursts. I mentioned (what turns out to be the same scene you are referring to), that Kaladin reasoned he would need to make his stormlight last to keep the fused distracted. That he couldn't focus on any of them in particular because the others would then attack Dalinar. Despite this he still runs dry and is about to be killed by Amaram when Rock pops him in the head with an arrow from a shardbow. Actually as I type this, we may be talking different scenes, because in the scene I am referring to, Kaladin says that the fused realized that they needs to kill him in order to get to Dalinar, so he needs to just survive and stay ahead of them. Then again as I said he runs out of stormlight for Rock to save him. So I still do not see Kaladin rationing his stormlight better than Jasnah. I have mostly finished putting together my research on Kaladin's stormlight use at Thaylenah. Still have to finish Jasnah, and then do Shallan. Considering how late it has gotten, I may post it all together as originally intended, but do so tomorrow. 

9 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Are we talking like a Radiant duel or are they actually fighting to the death? If it's a real fight to the death then, as they currently stand, Kaladin would lose because he'd freak out having to fight an ally / former ally. Even though Jasnah couldn't bring herself to kill Renarin I think she is ruthless enough to kill Kaladin.

If it's a duel or a fight where Kaladin isn't conflicted I think Jasnah would win because she is more experienced by 6 years or so and will use her soulcasting in ways that he's won't expect because he hasn't seen much soulcasting.  Plus her plate blocks his lashing.

Kaladin struggles with Amaran/Yelig-nar when Amagnar soulcasts the ground into mud and then back to stone. 

Kaladin can't lash her to the sky and end the fight in 5 seconds because of her plate. The Nahel bond might give Kaladin some resistance to her soulcasting, but I'm doubtful. Jasnah soulcast a bunch of Sadeas soldiers who had spren in them. Not the same as the nahel bond, but they had investiture in them to make their eyes glow red and it didn't resist her. Kaladin was able to lash a Fused to the sky and that Fused had Voidlight and is a Cognitive Shadow which is made of investiture, but the investiture didn't resist Kaladin's lashing. 

In general, I think the windrunner powers are more combat useful because manipulating gravity is tough to top as a combat skill. Coming at an opponent from any angle, lashing them all around, lashing large objects at them etc. 

Soulcasting is awesome in and out of combat, Transportation seems to allow her hurl people through the air, she appears to do this in the battle of Thaylen city off screen. Adolin sees a soldier fly out of an alleyway and then Adolin sees Jasnah in the alley.  

  Reveal hidden contents

"A soldier with red eyes suddenly hurtled through the air overhead ... Adolin peeked around the corner, expecting to find another stone monster like the one that had climbed into the Ancient Ward. Instead, he found only Jasnah Kholin." OB Ch. 120

 

 

it does appear this turned into a 1 on 1 fight between kaladin and jasnah to the death. Bigmikey suggested for equal footing we raise them both to 5th oath knight. 

So a point or two of clarity since having re-read this scene most of it is still fresh in my mind. Amaram does not seem to use soulcasting on kaladin. he uses cohesion to turn the ground to mud, and when Kaladin sinks into it, he solidifies it. Then he hits Kaladin, knocking him back, snapping his ankles. kaladin then pulls his feet out of his boots and lashes himself away. Then later when Amaram turns the air into fire, the implication is in this case it is division, not transformation because kaladin remarks how it seems to set the very air on fire, while transformation changes the material into flame and seems to do it into sheets or geometric shapes. Now having said all that, I still agree with everything you said lol. 

Good point. They were both seemingly super charged/benefiting from the closer realms, and they both had increased capabilities of using their surges on people. 

Regarding the capabilities of transportation is still up in the air. Some theorize jasnah throwing the guy the length of the alley that Adolin got to see is from her using radiant plate, and she had just dismissed it. others interpret it as you have that she is using her surge. We have seen her seemingly transfer inertia through the guy she soulcasted hitting another guy, which then moved with the same amount of force to hit the third guy. So suffice it to say, I can't wait to find out more what Jasnah can do! lol

[Karger he/him]

It is not a typo.  As long as Kaladin is alive and fighting offensively the fused cannot turn their attention on Dalinar.  The best ways to win in almost any combat setting is to open yourself to some kind of risk.  Kaladin does not want to win and so he is not risking anything instead he is just blasting as much light as possible until he runs out making sure that Dalinar has at least that long.