Ripheus23 Posted November 5, 2018 Posted November 5, 2018 If Cultivation has her own storm and X-light, what's to stop her from having a champion(ess) too? Is there a chance of a three-champion contest, as such? (Two-on-one, maybe?) If so, I want to guess haha... What would be an interesting arrangement... Lift and Kaladin vs. Moash, maybe. Or, Lift and Kaladin vs. Nale (ooooh I like this square-off!), Shallan and Dalinar vs. Taravangian... Lift and Dalinar vs. Talenel (rando!)...? 1
Quantus he/him Posted November 5, 2018 Posted November 5, 2018 Cultivation having, or at least needing, her own Champion would imply that she has goals that are separate from (and potentially antagonistic to) those of the Radiants and/or the Stormfather as Honor's Heir. Otherwise I think she'd simply invest her efforts into Cultivating Honor's Champion into the best possible version she could make. Why start from scratch when you can build on the seeds of what's already there. 3
Stormfather-in-Law Posted November 5, 2018 Posted November 5, 2018 Deific Mexican Standoff. Awesome. 5
+robardin he/him Posted November 5, 2018 Posted November 5, 2018 17 hours ago, Quantus said: Cultivation having, or at least needing, her own Champion would imply that she has goals that are separate from (and potentially antagonistic to) those of the Radiants and/or the Stormfather as Honor's Heir. Otherwise I think she'd simply invest her efforts into Cultivating Honor's Champion into the best possible version she could make. Why start from scratch when you can build on the seeds of what's already there. She's clearly "pruned" and "cultivated" Dalinar to break him of his fate as Odium's chosen champion. The "warm, calming light" that gave him non-Stormfather visions in the past, and what prompts to him to unite them, seems like it can only come from her. His interpretation of the Third Ideal of the Bondsmiths is very Cultivation-y, as well: in addition to "I will take responsibility for what I have done", the words of a leader of men, he adds, "If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man." A man who intends to grow in capacity, in wisdom, and in experience. 16 hours ago, Stormfather-in-Law said: Deific Mexican Standoff. Awesome. Unfortunately one of the the three Shards in question is already dead. So maybe, more like the ending to For A Few Dollars More, the revenge duel between Col. Mortimer and Indio (who it turns out, without giving a spoiler, has a past linked to the death of someone close to the Colonel). With Dalinar on the side, holding the musical pocket watch. 1
Toaster Retribution he/him Posted November 5, 2018 Posted November 5, 2018 I think Taravangian would be a worthless Champion... and I also don’t see why Cultivation needs her own champion, unless she has her own agenda, which I doubt. It would be cool though, with a threeway duel. Kaladin vs Nale vs Jasnah would be a fight for the ages.
Stormfather-in-Law Posted November 5, 2018 Posted November 5, 2018 1 hour ago, robardin said: Unfortunately one of the the three Shards in question is already dead. You think I didn't think of that? Remember, one of the guys in that scene has no bullets in his gun. Ha! 1
+robardin he/him Posted November 6, 2018 Posted November 6, 2018 2 hours ago, Stormfather-in-Law said: You think I didn't think of that? Remember, one of the guys in that scene has no bullets in his gun. Ha! Hey, Cultivation!! You know what you are?!!... 1
Quantus he/him Posted November 6, 2018 Posted November 6, 2018 On the other hand, there is a certain amount of symmetry to having all three Bondsmiths emerge but swear loyalty to a specific Shard, with the Nightmother's going to Cultivation but the Sibling's bondsmith going to Odium (even temporarily).
Ripheus23 Posted November 6, 2018 Author Posted November 6, 2018 (edited) 20 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said: and I also don’t see why Cultivation needs her own champion, unless she has her own agenda, which I doubt. The Stormfather said that Odium was bound by the power of Honor and Cultivation. The thing that seems to be binding Odium to the system is the possibility of this contest of champions. So, I'm guessing that the contest has to do with Cultivation too (I'm guessing that Honor and Cultivation being romantically involved, lends probability to some of Honor's programs being entangled with Cultivation's, even in the aftermath of Tanavast's death). EDIT: Maybe the connection to the Oathpact is that the Heralds were supposed to be the original candidates for the position of Honor's champion. Each was to be tested by their usage of the Honorblades. Comparatively, Odium tests his possible champions using the Unmade. So far, no wielder of an Honorblade has proven worthy of the championship of Honor, and no prey of the Unmade have proven worthy of Odium, so... Edited November 6, 2018 by Ripheus23
Calderis he/him Posted November 6, 2018 Posted November 6, 2018 @Ripheus23 the contest and Odium's binding are separate. If they weren't, they wouldn't have needed to get Odium to agree to it in the first place. He would be bound to choose already.
Ripheus23 Posted November 7, 2018 Author Posted November 7, 2018 23 hours ago, Calderis said: @Ripheus23 the contest and Odium's binding are separate. If they weren't, they wouldn't have needed to get Odium to agree to it in the first place. He would be bound to choose already. I wouldn't think that the actuality of the contest is binding (since it is not yet actually taking place), but the contest's mere possibility (under the circumstances) is.
Calderis he/him Posted November 7, 2018 Posted November 7, 2018 Just now, Ripheus23 said: I wouldn't think that the actuality of the contest is binding (since it is not yet actually taking place), but the contest's mere possibility (under the circumstances) is. The contest has been agreed to, and is binding. That was the very reason Odium made a deal with Taravangian at all. Quote “You need me,” Taravangian whispered. “I need nobody.” Taravangian looked up and there, glowing in front of him, was a set of words. A message from himself, in the past. Incredible! Had he somehow seen even this? Thank you. He read them out loud. “You have agreed to a battle of champions. You must withdraw to prevent this contest from occurring, and so must not meet with Dalinar Kholin again. Otherwise, he can force you to fight. This means you must let your agents do your work. You need me.” Odium stepped up, noting the words that Taravangian had read. Then he frowned at the tears on Taravangian’s cheeks. “Your Passion,” Odium said, “does you credit. What is it you ask in barter?”
Ripheus23 Posted November 7, 2018 Author Posted November 7, 2018 1 minute ago, Calderis said: [Quoting OB] You must withdraw to prevent this contest from occurring If you are preventing something from occurring, the thing is not fully actual yet. So the contest is, metaphysically, still more in the domain of possibility than actuality, and will remain so until specific champions are appointed, and then ultimately when the champions face off.
Calderis he/him Posted November 7, 2018 Posted November 7, 2018 1 minute ago, Ripheus23 said: If you are preventing something from occurring, the thing is not fully actual yet. So the contest is, metaphysically, still more in the domain of possibility than actuality, and will remain so until specific champions are appointed, and then ultimately when the champions face off. You've missed my point. The agreement to which he is bound, but the terms have yet to be set, is separate from anything else about his binding. There is no reason for Honor to have said in the vision "Perhaps you can get him to agree to a contest of champions" if that was already a thing he was forced to do.
Ripheus23 Posted November 7, 2018 Author Posted November 7, 2018 4 minutes ago, Calderis said: There is no reason for Honor to have said in the vision "Perhaps you can get him to agree to a contest of champions" if that was already a thing he was forced to do. I wouldn't say that Odium was already under compulsion to engage in the contest of champions, although he was under abstract compulsion to accept the possible existence of the contest. He was only otherwise compelled if he wanted to be free from the Rosharan system. If he "wanted" to stay, he just had to avoid appointing a champion ever, or whatever.
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