Messydesk Posted September 29, 2018 Posted September 29, 2018 The title was not intended to be a pun but oh well. (I read all three SA books in a row so I could finally join the SA discussions \o/) I finished reading Oathbringer this morning I did an allnighter and almost regret it, I'm getting too old for doing those;_; and there are few things bothering me about Rock. First the obvious question asked by Kaladin "how did he use the Shardbow?" since Stormlight doesn't give you superhuman strength like Plate does, so he shouldn't have had the strength to pull back the string. I started thinking about the other things that are odd about him and remembered that in the Interludes before Part 5 Rock, Bisig, and Eth were attacked. Bisig and Eth had Shardblade wounds on them but Rock was only "sliced up good, a half dozen cuts that looked like they'd come from a knife". Why would a Shardbearer use his blade only on two of the bridgemen? And why not use it on Rock who was probably the most dangerous looking (as in looking big and strong, not mean haha) of those three? It wouldn't be so suspicious if Rock's wounds were something else than "slices" and "cuts" (even word choice like "stab" would've made it sound more like an actual knife), but it made me think that what if the Shardbearer did try to kill Rock, too, with the Blade but for some weird reason it cut him like a regular sword/knife would? According to Bisig there was one attacker in Bridge Four uniform so I don't think there would've been another attacker with a regular knife attacking Rock. I know it sounds illogical for a Shardblade to suddenly work like a regular sword on a living being but... Still. Rock has the strength to use a Shardbow and a Shardblade might not be that deadly to him. What is that storming Horneater chef made of?! I also read Bigmikey357's theory of Rock being a Lightweaver which was very interesting and has very good points about Rock's lies to the others. 1
king of nowhere Posted September 29, 2018 Posted September 29, 2018 i think he's closer than most to the cognitive realm. That's because he can also see spren that don't want to be seen. Shardblades cut in the cognitive realm, slicing physical objects because their very idea has suddenly become that of an object cut in half. If rock is also partially in the cognitive, it's possible it would cause blades to cut him normally. Lift is also partially in the cognitive, it would be interesting to see if it has the same effect on her 2
Calderis he/him Posted September 29, 2018 Posted September 29, 2018 Or... Bear with me... There was more than one attacker and rock was hit with a normal blade...
Yata he/him Posted September 30, 2018 Posted September 30, 2018 Rock is confirmed to not be a Radiant but merely a Squire. The simple prove of that is him mostly dying unable to heal in Urithiru far from Kal and recover his Surgebinding only after he was moved to thaylen city. About his ability to use a shardbow, I assume it's only his own phenomenal physical strength helped by Stormlight 2
Calderis he/him Posted September 30, 2018 Posted September 30, 2018 18 minutes ago, Yata said: About his ability to use a shardbow, I assume it's only his own phenomenal physical strength helped by Stormlight I agree. He swung a storming tree at Kal in the chasms, and as much as Stormlight "doesn't add much strength" it still lent enough for Lall to explode a warform listeners head with the butt of a spear. With how strong rock is to begin with... 1
Messydesk Posted September 30, 2018 Author Posted September 30, 2018 8 hours ago, king of nowhere said: i think he's closer than most to the cognitive realm. That's because he can also see spren that don't want to be seen. Shardblades cut in the cognitive realm, slicing physical objects because their very idea has suddenly become that of an object cut in half. If rock is also partially in the cognitive, it's possible it would cause blades to cut him normally. Lift is also partially in the cognitive, it would be interesting to see if it has the same effect on her That's an interesting point and makes it all sound better than what I had in my head. I really need to read Edgedancer to learn more about Lift, I should get around to it next week or so. 7 hours ago, Calderis said: Or... Bear with me... There was more than one attacker and rock was hit with a normal blade... I thought that in the beginning too when I first read the chapter, but I don't believe in the "more than one attacker" thing as I mentioned in the op, because of three reasons. Bisig says he saw one attacker, I think he would've mentioned if he saw more even though the Bridge Four uniform was the main focus. I don't think a Shardbearer would've needed any help even against someone with an honorblade. And why would the shardbearer ignore Rock who was probably the most dangerous of those three men? Sure he could've known that Rock is a pacifist and most likely doesn't have the blade, but he would still need to be dealt with. I think the book makes deliberate point out of it since it could've just said "they were all hit by a Shardblade and Eth was dead". And would Rock really lose against someone with a regular sword? This made me also think that maybe Rock ran into the room after Bisig and Eth were attacked, and the attacker tried hitting him with the Shardblade but was surprised how it didn't affect him like the others. The attacker already had what he wanted so he would just leave Rock to bleed instead of wondering what was going on. 3 hours ago, Yata said: About his ability to use a shardbow, I assume it's only his own phenomenal physical strength helped by Stormlight If it was anyone else than Kaladin asking the question how he was able to use it I would lean towards Rock's own stupidly strong arms as well, but Kaladin knew Rock was able to swing a tree trunk without the help of Stormlight, so why would he make a point of him using a Shardbow then? Why wouldn't he just think "Should've guessed Rock would be able to use one without a Plate" or something. 1
Yata he/him Posted September 30, 2018 Posted September 30, 2018 41 minutes ago, Messydesk said: If it was anyone else than Kaladin asking the question how he was able to use it I would lean towards Rock's own stupidly strong arms as well, but Kaladin knew Rock was able to swing a tree trunk without the help of Stormlight, so why would he make a point of him using a Shardbow then? Why wouldn't he just think "Should've guessed Rock would be able to use one without a Plate" or something. Kal isn't an expert in Shardbow, I doubt he even tried to use one or neither inform in those. He knows only the common knowledge about those. The common knowledge is mostly a single sentence: "A man without Plate can't use them" He mixed this with his own experience with Stormlight and he deduced that a Radiant without a plate can't use a Shardbow... This could be true or false, Kaladin's statement isn't an expert statement. Rock is truly strong of his own, the Stormlight allows him to heal and a scenario of histerical strenght (if I don't remember wrong it's called technically Maxi Maximori Strenght) from him could easily allow to performe such a feat without suffer an heavy drawback. Also in real world there are instances of superhuman feats when the brain for some reason decides to lessen the limitation imposed to the body, it could be the same for Rock... Also if I don't even think it's necessary. 2
Szmit Posted September 30, 2018 Posted September 30, 2018 4 hours ago, Messydesk said: If it was anyone else than Kaladin asking the question how he was able to use it I would lean towards Rock's own stupidly strong arms as well, but Kaladin knew Rock was able to swing a tree trunk without the help of Stormlight, so why would he make a point of him using a Shardbow then? Why wouldn't he just think "Should've guessed Rock would be able to use one without a Plate" or something. He was just as suprized when a tree was thrown at him. He is aware of Rock's enormous strength, but he is not used to it.
Messydesk Posted September 30, 2018 Author Posted September 30, 2018 4 hours ago, Yata said: Kal isn't an expert in Shardbow, I doubt he even tried to use one or neither inform in those. He knows only the common knowledge about those. The common knowledge is mostly a single sentence: "A man without Plate can't use them" He mixed this with his own experience with Stormlight and he deduced that a Radiant without a plate can't use a Shardbow... This could be true or false, Kaladin's statement isn't an expert statement. Rock is truly strong of his own, the Stormlight allows him to heal and a scenario of histerical strenght (if I don't remember wrong it's called technically Maxi Maximori Strenght) from him could easily allow to performe such a feat without suffer an heavy drawback. Also in real world there are instances of superhuman feats when the brain for some reason decides to lessen the limitation imposed to the body, it could be the same for Rock... Also if I don't even think it's necessary. So we do agree that Rock's strength is above others and it's not from the Stormlight. My point was about what is he made of as in what is the source of the inhuman strength (Horneaters are still a race of humans on Roshar, I don't think the blood of listeners in their ancestry alone would explain the strength) and why he possibly wasn't affected by a Shardblade the same way others are. As @king of nowhere said, Rock might be closer to the cognitive realm which could explain the cuts. I really hope we'll get more about Rock and his past in the next book.
king of nowhere Posted September 30, 2018 Posted September 30, 2018 Since we're talking about rock, I wonder if all the horneater warriors are trained even half as well as he is. Because the book implies that his strength is at least partially caused by his training to be a warrior since early age. In which case, if most horneater warriors are like him, I wonder why they didn't conquer the world already
Yata he/him Posted September 30, 2018 Posted September 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Messydesk said: So we do agree that Rock's strength is above others and it's not from the Stormlight. My point was about what is he made of as in what is the source of the inhuman strength (Horneaters are still a race of humans on Roshar, I don't think the blood of listeners in their ancestry alone would explain the strength) and why he possibly wasn't affected by a Shardblade the same way others are. As @king of nowhere said, Rock might be closer to the cognitive realm which could explain the cuts. I really hope we'll get more about Rock and his past in the next book. Honestly the "closer to the CR so he is stronger and differently affected by Shardblades" have no sense. We saw a good amount of beings with different degrees of Connection to the CR (Radiants, Singers, Lift, Cognitive Shadows and spren themself)... All of those don't have special behaviour with Shardblades. They all have a Soul targettable and everyone of those is Spiritual wounded by bein hitted by a Blade). About his strenght, I think his size and muscle mass is enough for the feat. It's like The Rock (Dwayne Johnson) XD. A bit taller than Kal (that is tall for Alethi's standard) and twice as large. 1
king of nowhere Posted September 30, 2018 Posted September 30, 2018 39 minutes ago, Yata said: Honestly the "closer to the CR so he is stronger and differently affected by Shardblades" have no sense. We saw a good amount of beings with different degrees of Connection to the CR (Radiants, Singers, Lift, Cognitive Shadows and spren themself)... All of those don't have special behaviour with Shardblades. They all have a Soul targettable and everyone of those is Spiritual wounded by bein hitted by a Blade). About his strenght, I think his size and muscle mass is enough for the feat. It's like The Rock (Dwayne Johnson) XD. A bit taller than Kal (that is tall for Alethi's standard) and twice as large. I never wanted to imply that his connection to the cognitive is responsible for his physical might, though rereading my original post I see I forgot to specify. No, his strenght is simply a result of him being naturally big and having trained froom early age to become ever bigger. His connection to the cognitive is an established fact, and I was trying to use it to justify the inconsistency of his cuts. Because, while I'd also be tempted to dismiss it with mundane explanations, there really is something strange there. the assassin had a shardblade, there's no reason to cut rock with a mundane blade.
Calderis he/him Posted September 30, 2018 Posted September 30, 2018 59 minutes ago, king of nowhere said: His connection to the cognitive is an established fact, and I was trying to use it to justify the inconsistency of his cuts. Because, while I'd also be tempted to dismiss it with mundane explanations, there really is something strange there. the assassin had a shardblade, there's no reason to cut rock with a mundane blade. Sorry for having been so flippant in my original response here... But either there were multiple attackers, or the assassin used a different weapon. Rock is slightly closer to the Cognitive because he has singer blood. And as Yata mentioned, we've seen Singers hit with Shardblades and it doesn't leave physical wounds. Their blood is the reason that Rock is closer to the Cognitive, so if that were the reason, that being more pure in them should cause the same effect. And again on the strength thing... They can say that Stormlight doesn't increase strength much all they want, but we have this from tWoK Quote As that Parshendi fell, Kaladin pulled his spear free and slammed the end into a Parshendi head that had gotten too close. The butt of the spear shattered with a spray of wood, and the Parshendi’s carapace helm exploded. Both the spear haft, and the natural armor of a warform listener blown apart from a human arm. With no strength enhancement... Sure. I believe that. 1
Yata he/him Posted September 30, 2018 Posted September 30, 2018 A possible option is that the assassin attacked with a normal weapon and Rock was luckly enough to survive, then he kept killing until someone's death spawn the Honorblade... then he used that. By the way, there isn't even the need of him killing someone to get the Blade, if the Bridgeman who held it...simply summoned as response to the attack. Of course also @Calderis 's option of multiple attackers has merit and it's probably more plausible
king of nowhere Posted October 1, 2018 Posted October 1, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, Calderis said: Sorry for having been so flippant in my original response here... But either there were multiple attackers, or the assassin used a different weapon. Rock is slightly closer to the Cognitive because he has singer blood. And as Yata mentioned, we've seen Singers hit with Shardblades and it doesn't leave physical wounds. Rock is not closer just because of that. Rock can see all spren. Most of his people cannot - he states several times that he is special among his people because of this skill. And I'm not sure about singers, but i believe they also cannot normally see all spren. Mind you, I'm not pushing much for my interpretation of the cuts - it was a farfetched hypothesis made as a possible explanation to a discrepancy that can be explained in other ways. But there IS something strange with rock. he's not "just a strong guy" Edited October 1, 2018 by king of nowhere
Calderis he/him Posted October 1, 2018 Posted October 1, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, king of nowhere said: Rock is not closer just because of that. Rock can see all spren. Most of his people cannot - he states several times that he is special among his people because of this skill. It is because of his singer blood and that doesn't mean the ability is something all unkalaki (or Herdazians) have. Quote Argent On Roshar, certain people seem to be able to always see spren (Rock comes to mind). Are there people who can never see them? Similarly, can people from other worlds see them? Brandon Sanderson Those with Listener blood are more likely to be able to interact with spren who aren't currently trying to manifest. If they appear on the physical realm, then they're visible to all who can see. source And in Eshonai's interludes when spren are drawn, they actually see them zip in and draw near, not just appear like humans see them do. Edited October 1, 2018 by Calderis 1
HeyLookItz he/him Posted October 1, 2018 Posted October 1, 2018 Isn't it stated that Rock's ability is because he swam in Cultivation's perpendicularly? And didn't Cultivation also make Lift partially in the Cognitive? Is it possible that Cultivation is the one who blessed Rock????
dvoraen Posted October 1, 2018 Posted October 1, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, HeyLookItz said: Isn't it stated that Rock's ability is because he swam in Cultivation's perpendicularly? And didn't Cultivation also make Lift partially in the Cognitive? Is it possible that Cultivation is the one who blessed Rock???? Not necessarily. Did Preservation (the Vessel) bless people who entered the Well of Ascension? I didn't get the impression that Leras ever did, rather than the power itself doing its own thing for the person who claimed it. Cultivation's Perpendicularity is likely leaking into the water of that one hot spring in the Horneater Peaks and Investing people, and Rock's superhuman abilities relate to that. He has flat out said he's been close to if not completely exposed to Cultivation's Perpendicularity, even though he doesn't call it that. Edited October 1, 2018 by dvoraen
cfphelps he/him Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 On 9/30/2018 at 10:47 AM, king of nowhere said: I never wanted to imply that his connection to the cognitive is responsible for his physical might, though rereading my original post I see I forgot to specify. No, his strenght is simply a result of him being naturally big and having trained froom early age to become ever bigger. His connection to the cognitive is an established fact, and I was trying to use it to justify the inconsistency of his cuts. Because, while I'd also be tempted to dismiss it with mundane explanations, there really is something strange there. the assassin had a shardblade, there's no reason to cut rock with a mundane blade. It's possible the attacker was trying to remain inconspicuous and using a normal weapon on Rock first, but then the other bridgemen came to his aid and the attacker was forced to use his shard blade to win the fight and get away quickly.
Recommended Posts