[OB]Why Does Nale Think Killing Radiants Will Stop A Desolation?

[NotBurtReynolds he/him]

So, Nale thinks he can stop a Desolation by killing budding Radiants? Why does he think so? The way I read the Stormfather's explanation of the Oathpact, it seemed that the next Desolation only began when a Herald broke in Damnation. If that's the case, then the next Desolation after breaking the Oathpact would start whenever Taln broke, regardless of any Radiants walking around. And Nale knows this, right? I mean, the timeline isn't completely nale'd down yet, but seems like we have about 2000 years-ish between the Last Desolation and the Recreance...So 2000 years of Nale existing post-Oathpact with a whole mess of Radiants walking around, without a Desolation. So why now does he claim he was killing pre-radiants in order to stop a Desolation?  Is it out of subterfuge or ignorance? 

 

 

[DiamondMind he/him]

Technically, the Everstorm being summoned means the Oathpact is null, because the Fused come back each time it passes. So it's possible there is some connection between Surgebinders and the Everstorm. There already is an indirect connection since seeing Kaladin Surgebind made Eshonai decide to try a form of power. Plus the fact that Honor ranted that Surgebinders would destroy Roshar as the Dawnshards destroyed the last world...there's still a lot we don't know.

Edited November 19, 2017 by DiamondMind

[NotBurtReynolds he/him]

Even if there is a connection between Surgebinders and the Everstorm, it doesn't explain why Nale would think he could stop anything by killing Surgebinders. Why wasn't he killing Surgebinders pre-Recreance if he felt so strongly about them causing a Desolation? I guess what I'm trying to figure out is, what happened between the Recreance and the recent past(recent past being, whenever exactly it was that Nale started hunting surgebinders) that led Nale to believe he would be able to stop the next Desolation/Everstorm/Bad Odium Whatever, by hunting surgebinders down.

[Dryone_2]

Honor died. 

He was wounded and changed before the recreance and died shortly after. 

Ishi came up with the idea that Radiants were dangerous when Honor was dead and couldn't control them. 

[rjl]

17 minutes ago, Dryone_2 said:

Ishi came up with the idea that Radiants were dangerous when Honor was dead and couldn't control them. 

I think there's a high chance that Ishi sided with Odium a long time ago which would explain a lot of things including this.

Another option is that Honor's ravings during his death had included concerns about the dangers of surges which Ishin took to mean that they needed to suppress/kill them.

[BarrileteCosmico]

Taln never broke, this is why he kept repeating those words, he was still acting as if under torture. Once he became aware again he seemed entirely normal. The desolations only started with Gavilar bringing back the radiants/fused. Nale said something along the lines of the Oath Pact being stretched, now that Honor is no longer around. His belief that the radiants would bring back the desolations seems justified considering that's what happened:

Quote

 

“Ishar warned me of the danger. Now that Honor is dead, other Radiants might upset the balance of the Oathpact. Might undermine certain … measures we took, and give an opening to the enemy.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 986). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2017 by BarrileteCosmico

[rjl]

10 minutes ago, BarrileteCosmico said:

Taln never broke, this is why he kept repeating those words, he was still acting as if under torture. Once he became aware again he seemed entirely normal. The desolations only started with Gavilar bringing back the radiants/fused. Nale said something along the lines of the Oath Pact being stretched, now that Honor is no longer around. His belief that the radiants would bring back the desolations seems justified considering that's what happened:

I think Taln genuinely did break - he took 4000 years to do so but he broke; I think the "measures" were a fabrication or something meaningless - this feels a lot simpler to me than any alternative.

I note that if instead Taln did not break and the trigger was some action of Gavilar then the visions which drove Gavilar to act were effectively the trigger - but the Stormfather seems clear that these were from Honor unless they were an act of madness from Honor? OR set to come to force the desolation early because if it was delayed longer it would be worse for some reason?

I think however we take this, one very interesting question is how the visions tie in to it all, what caused Gavilar to start seeing them - was there some kind of mechanism set up such that when Taln was near to breaking they'd start coming or was it something else?

 

[OrinCordus he/him]

I think the "precautions" they took were related to the Parshmen being unable to hear the rhythms and unable to accept spren into their gemhearts. This did not end until the Everstorm was created.

I believe that the rediscovery of Surgebinding weakened the divide between the cognitive realm (the home of the spren) and the physical realm. This weakening allowed Ulim, an agent of Odium to cross. This led to the Everstorm and the end of "the precautions" that the Heralds took.

I also like the idea that Taln did not break, but was sent back to assist as Odium has found a way to sidestep the Oathpact now that Honor is dead.

[IndigoAjah he/him]

1) it is reasonable to suspect that Odium might find another way to get around the Oathpact, esp as they weren't sure how well it would hold with just 1

2) he's mad and might be linking in his mind the danger of the Radiants destroying the planet with the idea of a Desolation and bringing Odium, in a kind of "nearly right but completely the wrong way round" sort of way

3) Ishar told him so, and he weirdly thinks Ishar is not mad, is used to him making the decisions for the Heralds and may even have sworn to him in his 3rd Oath

[Necessary Eagle she/her]

46 minutes ago, IndigoAjah said:

3) Ishar told him so, and he weirdly thinks Ishar is not mad, is used to him making the decisions for the Heralds and may even have sworn to him in his 3rd Oath

You may be on to something there. Upvote.

[NotBurtReynolds he/him]

53 minutes ago, OrinCordus said:

I think the "precautions" they took were related to the Parshmen being unable to hear the rhythms and unable to accept spren into their gemhearts. This did not end until the Everstorm was created.

I believe that the rediscovery of Surgebinding weakened the divide between the cognitive realm (the home of the spren) and the physical realm. This weakening allowed Ulim, an agent of Odium to cross. This led to the Everstorm and the end of "the precautions" that the Heralds took.

I also like the idea that Taln did not break, but was sent back to assist as Odium has found a way to sidestep the Oathpact now that Honor is dead.

I really like that for explaining the precautions and how they could relate to the coming of the  Everstorm. But in the quote where he mentions the precautions, he speaks as if he thinks they are still in place, even though the Desolation/Everstorm has begun. So maybe your explanation with the Rhythms being taken from the Parshmen was just part of their precautions(which have now failed) and they still have some things up their sleeves for keeping Odium at bay?

 

[NotBurtReynolds he/him]

49 minutes ago, IndigoAjah said:

3) Ishar told him so, and he weirdly thinks Ishar is not mad, is used to him making the decisions for the Heralds and may even have sworn to him in his 3rd Oath

Oooh...Now wouldn't that be something   I don't have my book in front of me, but I seem to remember Nale explaining the Oaths to Szeth and mentioning that most of the Skybreakers had sworn to the law, but the sentence doensn't end "as have I", or something to the effect. I  now find it telling that Nale, Mr. Law, doesn't mention that he swore himself to the law. Nice catch

[Aminar]

Something from one of Venli's interludes stuck out to me and I think it might be this. 

The Spren that guided her said, "I escaped." or something along those lines. And it was only him. His escape happened a long time ago, before Gavilar's death judging by his aide in finding Szeth. I think his escape is what Nale sought to stop. It doesn't entirely make sense but it could be that when someone swears enough Oaths it creates a situation where an Odious Spren can escape. And maybe there isn't a parallel to High Spren on Odium's side like there might be parallels of other Radiant Spren. We'd need to know how the Spren escaped. 

Of course it could also be him being kind of nuts. 

[Calderis he/him]

The reasoning, as I understand it from Nale words in Edgedancer, are that after Honor's death without him there to regulate the Oaths of the Radiants, there is a small chance that a Surgebinder may progress beyond the 5th oath and become something like a Herald and join into the Oathpact. 

Obviously speculation, but if that were to happen, Taln would no longer have been alone in damnation, and they could not rely on an unknown element holding out in the same manner as Taln miraculously did. 

[knightedbishop he/him]

My line of thought is different from what others have said so far. I think Nale is concerned about the new Knights Radiant because of (1) their ability to access Shadesmar and (2) their capacity to tap into Honor’s power and be seen as His legitimate heir. 

1. Rosharian Shadesmar seems a lot busier than what we saw on Scadrial in Secret History. Cities, thriving trade with other planets...the spren are a whole civilization. Radiants can access that civilization and it’s knowledge base- particularly those with access to the surge of transportation. Well intentioned Radiants might draw conclusions and take actions to undermine the Oathpact or start a Desolation. Remember, Nale and the Heralds are world hoppers from way back. He knows Shadesmar and the potential access to game changing knowledge that accessing Shadesmar can bring. 

2. Heir to Honor. Dalinar did exactly this. In his initial exchange with Odium, Dalinar asked Odium to leave. Odium replies, “is that an offer to release me from my bonds, coming from the man holding the remnants of Honor’s name and power?” This maybe a capability unique to the Bondsmith connected to the Stormfather, but it seems Odium is suggesting Dalinar can simply set Odium free. That would end the Oathpact entirely.

Either option is concerning to Nale, hence it best from his view to sacrifice any potential Radiants for the greater good of holding Odium back.

[Yamahako he/him]

I wonder if there's a relationship between Stormlight and Voidlight.  Like, as you use more of one, it turns into the other kind.  So radiants could accidentally be giving power to the other side - which would be what is allowing the enemy to strike now.