[OB] SO GLAD HE'S DEAD

[1stBondsmith he/him]

You skipped a great deal of history. Make it modern and personal to get perspective. Someone shoots a bullet into your house. No one hurt. No recourse.

Next day, someone shoots 50 bullets into your house, kills 2, and you see who it was as they drive off. Laws of the land say it was random, so no trial for intentional murder. 

Next day, the man comes into your house. It is your father's friend. You see he is the one from the day before. He says it was him, and that he plans on doing it again to kill your father, for the good of the neighborhood. 

I drop that man. No murder. Killing. Call the cops to pick up the body.

I am protecting the remaining people in the home.

Edited August 31, 2017 by 1stBondsmith
Last Line

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

7 minutes ago, 1stBondsmith said:

You skipped a great deal of history. Make it modern and personal to get perspective. Someone shoots a bullet into your house. No one hurt. No recourse.

Next day, someone shots 50 bullets into your house, kills 2, and you see who it was as they drive off. Laws of the land say it was random, so no trial for intentional murder. 

Next day, the man comes into your house. It is your father's friend. You see he is the one from the day before. He says it was him, and that he plans on doing it again to kill your father, for the good of the neighborhood. 

I drop that man. No murder. Killing. Call the cops to pick up the body.

I am protecting the remaining people in the home.

Not bad example, but still cannot apply modern laws to Roshar situation. As in that case you can tell the cops you have been threatened, and they take him away. No-one was going to take away Sadeas. They have 2 highprinces on their side, not enough to charge him with anything. I'm not even sure if abandoning in the tower was treason, was just considered stupidity on Dalinar's part by the other highprinces, and a good point in favor of Sadeas for ruthlessness. 

[Calderis he/him]

53 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

Alright, then why was it wrong to kill Elhokar, an awful king who has led to the death of many?

There was nothing inherently wrong with trying to kill Elhokar. The plot to kill Elhokar wasn't what killed Syl. 

Breaking his word to Dalinar was. 

56 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

I think it funny how people on here say calling Adolin act a gray area that we should ignore good and evil and yet are quick to think of Sadeas as an evil snake. Sadeas was no more evil than Amaram, young Dalinar, or young Galivar. 

I've never said we should ignore good and evil. I only said that good is not a requirement of Honor. 

I believe that Sadeas was neither good nor honorable. And Amaram's feigned honor shows the code he does believe and willingly breaks. 

[FollowYourMuse she/her]

Was what Adolin did murder? Adolin believes it was murder so that is what it will be.

But I do think It depends on what the definition of murder is in Alethi. Laws in Alethi for the highprinces has been might makes right. 

This was not a premeditated assassination. Where Moash and Graves was premeditated planned murder.

Fights and duels are the way the Alethi defend their honor and reputation. It has been noted several times what reactions and actions can be taken when someone insults another or ones house.  If it had been witnessed then what Sadeas threatened and said it would be perfectly acceptable for  Adolin  to have summoned his blade and demanded a duel.

Yes Adolin attacked physically first, after Sadeas attacked verbally first, but it was a fight where one of the combatants was killed, not an assassination, or a premeditated murder. Even by modern standards this could be manslaughter not murder.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[+eveorjoy she/her]

56 minutes ago, 1stBondsmith said:

You skipped a great deal of history. Make it modern and personal to get perspective. Someone shoots a bullet into your house. No one hurt. No recourse.

Next day, someone shoots 50 bullets into your house, kills 2, and you see who it was as they drive off. Laws of the land say it was random, so no trial for intentional murder. 

Next day, the man comes into your house. It is your father's friend. You see he is the one from the day before. He says it was him, and that he plans on doing it again to kill your father, for the good of the neighborhood. 

I drop that man. No murder. Killing. Call the cops to pick up the body.

I am protecting the remaining people in the home.

You don't know much about the legal system in America at least.

Someone shoots a bullet into your house, you call the police. They will look for someone causing a public nuisance. They may not find them, but the crime will still be investigated.

They come back and shoot fifty bullets into your house and you recognize who it was, the police will be arresting them for manslaughter at the very least. So the next scenario would not happen.

If you shoot a man at your door is that legal, well that depends on the laws of the state you are in. However, if you think you aren't going to need a lawyer after you shoot someone at your front door you are very naive. 

However, the argument doesn't fit with Adolin's situation at all. It is completely an emotional defense. It is the same argument of a mob boss. If the enemy threatens one of yours you kill one of theirs.

Would Sadeas have succeeded in causing Dalinar trouble? Maybe, maybe not. Was it legal for Adolin to kill Sadeas? Not by Alethkar's laws. Was it moral to kill Sadeas? Now that is the question? If it was moral to kill someone who was causing you trouble then Sadeas trying to kill Dalinar would also be a moral act. Why is Dalinar's life more precious than Sadeas? Because he is the good guy and Sadeas is the bad guy? 

Okay, one more example from our time. Should Jack Ruby have been put on trial for killing Lee Harvey Oswald, the man who killed President Kennedy? By your standard, Ruby should have been given a metal.

41 minutes ago, Calderis said:

There was nothing inherently wrong with trying to kill Elhokar. The plot to kill Elhokar wasn't what killed Syl. 

Breaking his word to Dalinar was. 

I've never said we should ignore good and evil. I only said that good is not a requirement of Honor. 

I believe that Sadeas was neither good nor honorable. And Amaram's feigned honor shows the code he does believe and willingly breaks. 

Well, then it is shame Moash said anything to Kaladin at all. Killing Elhokar would have been fine. Accept it would have been against the law and therefore murder by a legal definition. 

Further Kaladin promised no one that he would not kill Amaram. Why was Syl against him doing that? Why did she want him to follow the legal path and tell Dalinar?

How was Sadeas anymore dishonorable than Amaram? Why is it honorable to kill a man for saying a threat in a dark hall when he is not acting on said threat at that moment? Why are people so bothered by calling what Adolin did murder?

22 minutes ago, FollowYourMuse said:

Was what Adolin did murder? Adolin believes it was murder so that is what it will be.

But I do think It depends on what the definition of murder is in Alethi. Laws in Alethi for the highprinces has been might makes right. 

This was not a premeditated assassination. Where Moash and Graves was premeditated planned murder.

Fights and duels are the way the Alethi defend their honor and reputation. It has been noted several times what reactions and actions can be taken when someone insults another or ones house.  If it had been witnessed then what Sadeas threatened and said it would be perfectly acceptable for  Adolin  to have summoned his blade and demanded a duel.

Yes Adolin attacked physically first, after Sadeas attacked verbally first, but it was a fight where one of the combatants was killed, not an assassination, or a premeditated murder. Even by modern standards this could be manslaughter not murder.

 

There is such a thing as crimes of passion or murder without premeditation. By America laws this is called 2nd degree murder. By Alethi law, Adolin committed murder. And thank you for giving Adolin yet another way he could have handled the situation. He could have called for a duel.

Actually what Adolin should have done is kept his cool and told his father what Sadeas said. They then could have decided what to do at that point. But Adolin lost his cool and killed a man. The only reason everyone avoids calling the act murder is that Adolin, a character we like, killed Sadeas, a character he hate. Had Adolin told Sadeas, we have you on such and such charges and will soon bring you down, and then Sadeas killed him would you still say it was not murder?

Edited August 31, 2017 by eveorjoy

[FollowYourMuse she/her]

Just now, eveorjoy said:

There is such a thing as crimes of passion or murder without premeditation. By America laws this is called 2nd degree murder. By Alethi law, Adolin committed murder. And thank you for giving Adolin yet another way he could have handled the situation. He could have called for a duel.

Yes it could be 2nd degree murder but with the provocation and threats it could be Voluntary manslaughter. 

[Storyspren]

2 hours ago, eveorjoy said:

You can have sympathy for someone but still call their act for what it is. Temporary insanity fine, Adolin can have that. That does not make his act less wrong, it just makes him less culpable. 

See now. In my mind, it's more like the time a dog bit me when I smacked it when I was three. The dog couldn't think right then. It didn't surrender to instinct. Instinct had taken control of it totally.

I do see that as less wrong. 

[+eveorjoy she/her]

9 minutes ago, FollowYourMuse said:

Yes it could be 2nd degree murder but with the provocation and threats it could be Voluntary manslaughter. 

You just don't like calling it murder, do you. Sigh.  That is a modern legal definition. You need to judge Adolin by Alethi law not our laws. Maybe the Alethikar has a law that would call it voluntary manslaughter. In that case then yes, I would agree. It is still a crime. 

 

3 minutes ago, Storyspren said:

See now. In my mind, it's more like the time a dog bit me when I smacked it when I was three. The dog couldn't think right then. It didn't surrender to instinct. Instinct had taken control of it totally.

I do see that as less wrong. 

Less wrong, maybe, but still a wrong. I'm not saying Sadeas's murder isn't a gray area. It is, but that does not make the act a good thing either.

I love Dalinar. I hope he is able to unite Roshar. I love him even after I reading his flashback chapter. Dalinar is a murderer who is trying to change and has succeeded quite a bit. Saying Adolin did the wrong thing in killing Sadeas does not make him a bad person. There are reasons for his actions that are understandable. He still did something wrong. If it was the right thing to do they should have sent an assassin on Sadeas as soon as they got all the Bridgeman out of his camp.

[Calderis he/him]

30 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

Well, then it is shame Moash said anything to Kaladin at all. Killing Elhokar would have been fine. Accept it would have been against the law and therefore murder by a legal definition

Which per Syl's own words, law doesn't matter, Kaladin's not a Skybreaker. 

30 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

Further Kaladin promised no one that he would not kill Amaram. Why was Syl against him doing that? Why did she want him to follow the legal path and tell Dalinar?

Because Kaladin's motivation had nothing to do with protecting anyone. It was all about vengeance. 

Kaladin justified Elhokar's death by reasoning it would protect the kingdom from Elhokar's incompetence. 

He attempted no such thing with Amaram. He just wanted to see him hurt and die. It was from this conversation that the "you're not a Skybreaker, Kaladin" comes. I find it interesting that Syl equates the Skybreakers with vengence/punishment and not with justice. Regardless, his oaths are about protection, and Syl's own words when Kal's powers failed were "who were you protecting." 

The Oaths of each order are important. Nothing else. 

 

Edited August 31, 2017 by Calderis

[+eveorjoy she/her]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The Oaths of each order are important. Nothing else. 

You really want Amaram to be an elsecaller don't you.

I get it. Odium is not evil and good and bad have nothing to do with it. Okay, so when Jasnah gets to Urithru I will so enjoy the chapters where she kills everyone who might threaten her family and the Knight's Radiant even a slight problem because her order is okay with that. There has to be some standard otherwise why not allow Odium to destroy Roshar?

I think we will just need to agree to disagree.  

[Steeldancer he/him]

1 minute ago, eveorjoy said:

You really want Amaram to be an elsecaller don't you.

I get it. Odium is not evil and good and bad have nothing to do with it. Okay, so when Jasnah gets to Urithru I will so enjoy the chapters where she kills everyone who might threaten her family and the Knight's Radiant even a slight problem because her order is okay with that. There has to be some standard otherwise why not allow Odium to destroy Roshar?

I think we will just need to agree to disagree.  

Um. I think odium is evil. He wants destruction and death. That is evil, and not honorable. Desiring death is not in the oaths. There is no hate in the oaths. Hate is bad. War is bad. Odium is causing the hate and war. That is that. 

Honor may not be always GOOD, but compared to odium he is vastly preferable. The Knights might be on a spectrum, but the spectrum is far away from where odium is. 

[Calderis he/him]

6 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

You really want Amaram to be an elsecaller don't you.

he's driven far too much by lust for power and emotions tied to his religion for that. 

7 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

I get it. Odium is not evil and good and bad have nothing to do with it. Okay, so when Jasnah gets to Urithru I will so enjoy the chapters where she kills everyone who might threaten her family and the Knight's Radiant even a slight problem because her order is okay with that. There has to be some standard otherwise why not allow Odium to destroy Roshar?

There is a balance. The orders are supposed to exist together. By themselves they are broken in the same way and prone to excesses that their own oaths allow. I would think the Skybreakers are proof enough that any order in isolation is not what it should be. 

4 minutes ago, Flash said:

Um. I think odium is evil. He wants destruction and death. That is evil, and not honorable. Desiring death is not in the oaths. There is no hate in the oaths. Hate is bad. War is bad. Odium is causing the hate and war. That is that. 

Not according to Brandon. None of the Shards are evil in and of themselves. Rayse on the other hand is a different story. 

[Steeldancer he/him]

Just now, Calderis said:

he's driven far too much by lust for power and emotions tied to his religion for that. 

There is a balance. The orders are supposed to exist together. By themselves they are broken in the same way and prone to excesses that their own oaths allow. I would think the Skybreakers are proof enough that any order in isolation is not what it should be. 

Not according to Brandon. None of the Shards are evil in and of themselves. Rayse on the other hand is a different story. 

Ok. The POWER itself isn't evil. Matter can't be evil. Energy isn't evil. Investiture isn't evil. But how one chooses to use it determines whether it is evil or not. And odium uses his power for destruction and death of many people. 

Until such a time as odium shifts to a different user perhaps, I will consider rayse and odium one and the same: evil. An antagonist. Like Ruin. But more awful, because what emotion is more destructive to us than Hate? 

[+eveorjoy she/her]

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

There is a balance. The orders are supposed to exist together. By themselves they are broken in the same way and prone to excesses that their own oaths allow. I would think the Skybreakers are proof enough that any order in isolation is not what it should be. 

1

This I agree with.

[Storyspren]

Totally out of left field here but two independent crazy thoughts I've had about Sadeas's death.

1) maybe this event will be a trigger for reviving Adolin's shardblade. And what would that mean?

2) maybe Adolin was momentarily being controlled by something or someone?

[Guest]

On 8/30/2017 at 0:41 PM, WhiteLeeopard said:

I'm not sure Dalinar stands for what is right in this situation. I think he is just blind and refusing to see the facts. "Sadeas was a brilliant general". Whose brilliancy consisted of his sociopathic ability to use people's lifes like cannon fodder. Something that would have likely made Kaladin kill him if he had tried it again. And on that line, people saying "Kaladin will be furious at what Adolin did". Kaladin swore the third oath! He didn't get a brain transplant! "I will protect those I hate, so long as it is right". Highly doubt he would have ever seen protecting Sadeas as something right.

Sadeas had zero qualities to give the new world, he wasn't going to be anything but an impediment, and he would just cost lifes in the future, only question is how many. Dalinar just doesn't want to accept this. Probably, because as Calderis said, it would mean taking a long hard look at what he himself really was like in the past. Dalinar's blindness cost 6k lifes in WoK, and since he showed no sign of changing that part of himself, he might very well have cost all of Roshar due to his inability to see the truth in front of him. Fortunately he has a great son who saved him from himself.

Always entertaining. So many new posts, I can't keep up, not when I am away all day working  

I did note a reluctance on Dalinar to admit his former friend deserved to die. In a way, I can understand where he comes from, he has good memories associated to Sadeas, he was a friend: sometimes it is hard to let it go. He is however deluding himself if he thinks he actually needed Sadeas. Right here and there, he gave Adolin all the justification he lacked: Dalinar was not going to deal with Sadeas, he was not going to consider him a threat, he was going to sway him to his side, once again only to get betrayed, yet another time.

On 8/30/2017 at 0:54 PM, Calderis said:

I honestly think that at some point in this book, Dalinar us going to have to truly face who he was, and I don't think it's going to be pleasant for him at all. 

I can't wait for next week! We are going to have so much to discuss once we read Dalinar's second flashback chapter and see the Blackthorn in all of his glory. Then, there is the fourth chapter where we see why people feared him.

He has to deal with his past, but I fear he will get side-track. I fear he will think Adolin is following on those steps when, quite frankly, Adolin could never be the man Dalinar once was.

14 hours ago, hypatia said:

Adolin has a problem, but as I see it it's more that he over-idiolizes his father and really - even with only one of the flashbacks - Dalinar would have done the same with lesser reasons at this age.

True enough, Adolin is unable to consider the idea his father wasn't a great man: he sees him as the impossible ideal he needs to achieve. Dalinar has done worst, so much worst at the same age.

As for the rest, I skipped some comments because I am so far back down into the conversation, but I will say we absolutely cannot compare Moash to Adolin.

Elhokar is not responsible for Moash's grand-parents dying, he is responsible for taking a bad decision, but he did not kill them nor could he know they would die. The culprit was punished, but it was not enough for Moash who wanted to be the one to extract revenge. It was entirely personal. 

Sadeas is responsible for betraying an ally in a time of war, he is responsible for attempting to assassinate Dalinar and he has launched war threats to the Kholin princedom. He did state he would kill the king, he did state he would kill Dalinar: he spoke high treason and there are no legal ways to deal with him. To those who think Adolin could have gone to Dalinar and explained what he has heard, I believe you are running onto the assumption Dalinar would/could have done something. We see within the third chapter how Dalinars intends were to fight with Sadeas, to bring him to his side: he claimed he needed him. He is sad to see him dead because he utterly believes he needs his expertise onto the battlefield. There were no ways where Dalinar would have given Adolin's warning any level of urgency: he would not have dealt with Sadeas and even if he wanted to, he can't. He can't trial nor exile nor do anything to Sadeas except declare war to him, which he also can't because they kind of have a bigger foe to fight.

Sadly, there were no other ways to deal with Sadeas but to kill him. Adolin knew it, so he killed him, but it cost him dearly to do so. His anger wasn't revenge, it was the required emotion he needed to channel to act. 

Was it murder? Of course it was, but it was the provoked and justified murder of a despot. There were no other ways to deal with Sadeas and while yes, it wasn't pretty, it remained the only viable option.

Edited September 1, 2017 by maxal

[+eveorjoy she/her]

Random comment. Even though I stand by my comment that Adolin did something wrong in killing Sadeas, I think Kaladin will buy Adolin a drink when he finds out. He will be storming happy about it. Kaladin's best friends and squires include murderers, remember?  So, he won't be upset with Adolin for killing Sadeas. He, however, might be worried for him and have to help him escape Alethi justice. 

[StormblessDave]

Wor part 5 chapter 85

Dalinar to Adolin

Quote

You're a better man than I am. I was always a tyrant who had to learn to be something else.

Just read this bit again, it shows that Dalinar knows how evil he used to be, and He's already changed.

[Calderis he/him]

4 minutes ago, StormblessDave said:

Wor part 5 chapter 85

Dalinar to Adolin

Just read this bit again, it shows that Dalinar knows how evil he used to be, and He's already changed.

He has changed. And he's aware of that fact. Being aware doesn't mean he realizes how truly disgusting he was. 

After we've read the book I'll gladly reconsider it, but for the time being, I stand by my opinion. 

[hypatia she/her]

"I was always a tyrant..."

That's exactly why I don't think he is really aware of his past.

With only the first flashback we see him as a useful weapon of a tyrant, he himself isn't fighting for the goal of Gavilar, not even a goal of his own.

He's fighting to get his 'fix', for a new dose of the Thrill.

And not to feel better but to feel anything at all. Without the Thrill he is barely able to function as a human being - be it good or bad.

He needs it, because of a 'pit' inside of him, a huge crack, has to be filled with something, otherwise he is a shell of a man.

 

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

 

11 hours ago, eveorjoy said:

And thank you for giving Adolin yet another way he could have handled the situation. He could have called for a duel.

He did. Sadeas said "Cool, lets set the date for next year".

11 hours ago, eveorjoy said:

Actually what Adolin should have done is kept his cool and told his father what Sadeas said

Something which he has done...I've lost count of how many times, lets say five as a nice round number. Dalinar response has been, "You don't understand Sadeas" or "We have other problems to deal with". Or as a super aggressive tactic "Lets take the Shards of those loyal to him". As Maxal said above, Dalinar's reaction to his death proves he was never going to deal with the Sadeas problem. As the only way to deal with the problem was death, (can't imprison a Shardbearer).  

 

10 hours ago, eveorjoy said:

If it was the right thing to do they should have sent an assassin on Sadeas as soon as they got all the Bridgeman out of his camp.

 If Jasnah had been there I bet a saphire broam she would have fixed the Sadeas problem a long time ago . And yes, I happen to agree that is what they should have done. My morals have never been the shiniest in the shelf...

As for Syl, she didn't care if Kaladin wanted to kill Elhokar, her problem was that he had promised Dalinar he would protect him. She didn't want Kaladin to kill Amaram because he was focused on the past (venguance). When he said it was to protect those he would hurt in the future it was lip service. If he truly believed killing Amaram would protect future people I'd be very surprised if Syl had a problem with it. 

Edited September 1, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[FollowYourMuse she/her]

11 hours ago, Calderis said:

There is a balance. The orders are supposed to exist together. By themselves they are broken in the same way and prone to excesses that their own oaths allow. I would think the Skybreakers are proof enough that any order in isolation is not what it should be. 

This!  Thank you for articulating this so well. It can be applied to the Radiants, the shards, the Heralds, Taravangian, and so many other issues seen on Roshar, (or the Cosmere).

[+eveorjoy she/her]

Okay those who feel Adolin did the right thing you are going to love this. I spoke with a lawyer friend about Adolin's situation. He agreed with you. Even in our modern world, if someone were in Adolin's situation he would likely be found innocent for reasons of temporary insanity caused by extreme duress. So there you go. I can admit when I am wrong. 

However, I still think the event will break him so he can invest. I also think Alethi law is not as compassionate as American law. I think when the truth comes out, Dalinar won't blame him, but he might need to exile him. 

I guess we will see. 

Edited September 1, 2017 by eveorjoy

[king of nowhere]

Going back to how bad people dalinar and sadeas were, I would like to point out that we are the ones projecting modern sensibilities on people coming from a medieval culture, which is totally inaccurate as far as realism goes. It is however one of the underlying assumptions of fantasy that protagonists will have modern sensibilities.

In ancient times (not even that much ancient) conquer, rape and pillage were all perfectly normal actions during war. And waging war to expand your nation was also perfectly normal. As much as we find sadeas and dalinar disgusting, we have to keep in mind that every. single. conqueror. in history. was like that. Alexander the great, julius caesar, charlemagne, all manner of people lauded in history books, all committed similar actions, without ever a thought that they may be wrong. Except maybe the rape part, some of them may have been considerate enough to realize it was unnecessary abuse of the defeated foe (or simply faithful to their spouses), but they were certainly cool with their troops doing it. Even in modern time, mass raping of enemy civilians is common after capturing a city. I've read some diaries of german people who lived in berlin during the second world war.

So, while I do not like nor condone dalinar's actions, I still see him as a man of his time, doing stuff that everyone living at the time agreed was right, and being already more honorable than most. He was willing to call off a pillage for the sake of a person who impressed him. Sadeas, on the other hand, had no redeeming qualities that we can discern. Still, I can see dalinar's point: he was an intelligent, resourceful man, and if he could have been swayed to the side of good, he would have been an invaluable resource. The only problem is the swaying part.

[Sparkrunner he/him]

I am going to skip back to legal technicalities here, this may have already been mentioned but we can expect the alethi system to be corrupt, where killing a highprince is worse than hanging hundreds of darkeyes.