Long Game 15: ...The Shards Themselves...

[Clanky he/him]

Multiple things. Mostly questions.

Why is Orlok proven as a Surgebinder?

Why are you proven as an Elantrian? Is that just from your perspective or was there proof at some point that I missed?

Why am I proven as a Mistborn? Just because Lopen vouched for me?

I'm assuming you're saying Biggoron is a proven Elantrian because you didn't protect him, right?

Most of this has to do with the small amount of people we have left and that if someone was lying about claiming responsibility for an action that they would probably have been called out on it by now. Unless both players are traitors and then it doesn't really matter either way.Specifically as to each of your questions

 

He was very open about wanting to lynch Alvron and a message was put in the write-up calling for Alvrons lynch. 

I was scanned by the HI when he was for sure still loyal. 

With you it could be that Lopen is actually the mistborn and you are covering for him but we know there is a mistborn out there and the common opinion is that they are loyal. If someone else was the mistborn I feel like they would have spoken up by now.

Yes I didn't protect Biggoron so that's why I say he is proven.

 

Basically I consider all the roles that we know for sure to be out there to belong to the players who claimed it. At this point in the game it is the most likely possibility by far. Also as you can see some of it can't be technically proven without me or Biggoron dying. 

[Elbereth she/her]

Most of this has to do with the small amount of people we have left and that if someone was lying about claiming responsibility for an action that they would probably have been called out on it by now. Unless both players are traitors and then it doesn't really matter either way.Specifically as to each of your questions

He was very open about wanting to lynch Alvron and a message was put in the write-up calling for Alvrons lynch.

I was scanned by the HI when he was for sure still loyal.

With you it could be that Lopen is actually the mistborn and you are covering for him but we know there is a mistborn out there and the common opinion is that they are loyal. If someone else was the mistborn I feel like they would have spoken up by now.

Yes I didn't protect Biggoron so that's why I say he is proven.

Basically I consider all the roles that we know for sure to be out there to belong to the players who claimed it. At this point in the game it is the most likely possibility by far. Also as you can see some of it can't be technically proven without me or Biggoron dying.

Okay, that makes sense to me.

I'm not that convinced about Orlok, but I can accept that reasoning.

Right, but did anyone announce that you were scanned until after he might have turned? The HI certainly didn't, and Lopen didn't until after Alfa died, I think. Right?

Fair enough.

Okay, then from my perspective he's not confirmed. Got it.

So who are we killing today? I'd be fine with Elkanah, personally. Given that we know everyone's roles now (probably), it might be better to know if he's been a traitor for a while now or if he was loyal up until now. Speaking of which, who did you scan last night, Hellscythe?

EDIT: Just realized it's night. I thought it was day. Ignore that last paragraph.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Ookla the Star-Goddess

[TheMightyLopen he/him]

Okay, that makes sense to me.

I'm not that convinced about Orlok, but I can accept that reasoning.

Right, but did anyone announce that you were scanned until after he might have turned? The HI certainly didn't, and Lopen didn't until after Alfa died, I think. Right?

Fair enough.

Okay, then from my perspective he's not confirmed. Got it.

So who are we killing today? I'd be fine with Elkanah, personally. Given that we know everyone's roles now (probably), it might be better to know if he's been a traitor for a while now or if he was loyal up until now. Speaking of which, who did you scan last night, Hellscythe?

 

I do think that Orlok is the Surgebinder as well, but pretty much the only way he's not is if him and the BioChromancer claimed each others's roles for some reason, and I don't know why they would do that. That would also mean he's a Traitor, so it doesn't much matter if they did that or not.

I'm not sure exactly what Cycle it was, but the HI scanned Clanky before Alfa was lynched and said something like: "well I scanned you Clanky and now believe you to be Loyal because of that." So he did say something about it before Alfa was killed meaning he was Loyal for sure then.

Biggoron, well, I'm a little confused about our situation right now, so I'm not sure about what his role is. If Clanky is Loyal though, then he is the only one who would know if Biggoron is an Elantrian or not. That doesn't exactly help us all that much, but like Clanky said, if one of them is killed, we will know about the other one.

 

At the moment, I actually do think Elkanah is the most suspicious. I want to think about things a little more before I do a Mistborn vote on him or anything like that.

[Orlok Tsubodai]

Yes, I am the surgebinder. Both the Wilson and Alvron messages were me.

I remain intransigently suspicious of Phatt.

His posts seem deliberately misleading this cycle; the certainty regarding number of eliminators in such a manner as to lead to put complacency, and frankly, I am still incredibly suspicious from the early game.

Wilson was incredibly defensive of the Shallan lynch, and I remain convinced that Shallan was chosen for a particular reason, rather than randomly selected - and the reason to me that makes the most sense is to facilitate a greater ease of access to the game from Phatt.

[phattemer]

Yes, she was chosen for a reason. Wilson found someone to shift the lynch onto. And I'll repeat: having my sister in this game does not grant me greater accessibility, and personally, I don't think that should even come into it. The anon game is looking better and better...

More to the point, I assumed there would be at most 6 Eliminators because I've never seen a bigger team than that. Also, with the roles they had I don't think they need another person.

[Elkanah he/him]

I'm becoming more suspicious of Fattemer. If he's evil it would make a lot of sense for him to be coming after me. If I die, the HI will subvert, which would give the evil team another vote.

 

I'm also suspicious of Lopen. Looking back through the last couple of cycles, he was the one who posted the kill vote on Alfa and yesterday after leading the lynch on Burnt Spaghetti, he changed his vote to Biggoron.

 

I think we should have the mistborne target phattemer. That way if he is a voidbringer, we'll have evidence of it and we can move on to other targets. If he's the biochromancer, then we may have killed the last traitor.

[phattemer]

You probably role blocked the Mistborn, since nobody else was. No point in having a Mistborn vote, since they know what they should do.

[Elkanah he/him]

I see your play. role block the mistborne and pin it on the hemalurgist. I don't expect to make it through the night, but when I die, everyone take note of who it was who was trying to turn the HI.

[Hellscythe he/him]

More to the point, I assumed there would be at most 6 Eliminators because I've never seen a bigger team than that.

Weren't there 7 in the game like.... immediately before this? (LG15a)

[queensteph she/her]

Elkanah, Lopen didn't switch his vote ? He did take his vote off of Burnt but I don't know if he meant to or not. Since where he so called "retracted" it he was just putting together a list of those he thought were good and burnt was one of those and he had put them in green so I'm pretty sure that's what cancelled his vote. (Unless I'm mistaken)

[Wyrmhero he/him]

Day 10: The Final Countdown

 

Biggoron strode down the corridor to his workstation for the Night Shift, feeling sore and achey but no longer in any actual real pain. He paused by a particularly shiny metal support beam and lifted his shirt's sleeve up, examining where he was wounded in the reflection. Yes, he thought, synthskin is amazing.

 

When he had it first grafted on, he was somewhat concerned by the fact that the colour didn't match his own skin pigmentation, but was quickly assured that it would settle down and match his hue after a few hours. Pleasingly, it seemed those doctors really knew what they were talking about.

 

As he started to walk down the corridor, he started to whistle to himself, somewhat rather loudly. He was nowhere near the sleeping quarters of the ship, so he wouldn't annoy anyone if he made a little noise. Or at least, he wouldn't wake anyone. He might annoy a few people that were working nearby. But he didn't particularly care about that. It was a new day (or night) and he wasn't dead, and everything seemed right with the world.

 

His whistling was cut off briefly when something bit into the back of his leg. He stumbled and swore, and another small object shot past his other leg, slashing the tendon and making him fall. “Not again! You storming-!” He fell silent. Wasn't he meant to play dead at this point...? He shut his mouth quickly, hoping that, despite all the odds and evidence to the contrary, he hadn't been heard.

 

Footsteps approached him, slowly and warily. Surviving the previous attack had proven that he was rather resilient and resourceful, so it was no small surprise his attacker was cautious about approaching him. It would have made him feel much better though if he had something to be resourceful with, this time around.

 

A light flickered on in the corridor, and the sound of footsteps reached his ears. His attacker cursed and fled, Mistcloak trailing behind them. Biggoron turned to face his saviour as best he could, praying to any Shard or mythological being out there that it would not just turn into someone else killing him. He looked up, and saw the pale face of an Elantrian, skin shining as silver in the unnatural light of the ship.

 

“Been in the wars again, have we?” The Elantrian tutted disapprovingly as he lowered himself down to kneel on the floor. “Well,” he heaved Biggoron across his shoulders, standing up carefully. “I suppose I'd better do my job.”

 

Biggoron just sighed and let himself be manhandled to the infirmary.

 

Crew Manifest

1. John (IrulelikeSTINK) - A rules lawyer's client with a mission. - Hemalurgist

2. Gaius Tekiel (Orlok)

3. Adelor Ien Far-Astra (Alfa) - Hemalurgist

4. Wynde Wilson (little wilson) - A woman afraid of airlocks. - Voidbringer

5. Tigger (Kipper) – T-I-Double-Guh-Err - Feruchemist

6. James T Slade (Bridge Boy) - An ensign with delusions of Spook. - Forger

7. Inor Haze (Creccio) - BioChromancer

8. Pork (Paranoid King) - A pilot and board game fanatic - Feruchemist

9. Miral (Mailliw73) - Excited to be exploring the Cosmere - Hemalurgist

10. Cor Mordero (Alvron) - Petty Officer, in both rank and nature. Uninvested

11. Arandar (Araris Valerian) - Hemalurgist

12. Rae Nova (Arraenae) - Possibly a death-seeker - Mistborn

13. Brega Daghar (The Honey Badger) - A man looking for opportunities - BioChromancer

14. Citoan Vinid (Shallan) - A naturally non-Allomancer who loves Allomancy - Kandra

15. Obsidibus Caesis Dormiam (phattemer)

16. Volke (TheMightyLopen)

17. Davenar Leiken (Adavantos) - Uninvested

18. Kaid (Kaid) - Voidbringer

19. Doctor McClay (Clanky)

20. Neil Weakarm (polkinghorndb) - Forger

21. Elby (Elbereth)

22. HELLSCYTHE (DeathClutch19) - Uninvested - HI

23. Steph (QueenSteph)

24. The High Priest of Elkanah (Elkanah)

25. Dow (dowanx) - Surgebinder

26. Sonder Kessligh (Kasimir) - Uninvested

27. Osmann (Zed) - Uninvested

28. Bort (Bort) - Uninvested

29. Ember Ghetti (Burnt Spaghetti) - Kandra

30. Gylf (RippleGylf) - Uninvested

31. Bovinus (The Cow) - Uninvested

32. Biggoron (Biggoron)

 

 

 

Biggoron was attacked but survived!

 

Day 10 has begun! PMs may not be sent.

 

Shift Clock

Planet-fall will occur soon! Making final preparations for the scouts and sensors.

 

 

[Clanky he/him]

Well that was an odd night. Did anyone get roleblocked last night? 

 

I will be putting my vote on Elkanah. As I explained during the last Cycle there are only two options for the biochromancer and I trust Lopen most of the two.

[Elbereth she/her]

So. First off, obviously I wasn't roleblocked last night. Lopen, Clanky, Biggoron, and I discussed, and basically the result was that I was going to target either Clanky or Biggoron without them knowing which. If they were loyal, they would naturally protect themselves.

My logic for targeting Biggoron went thus:

Scenario 1: Biggoron and Clanky are both loyal. They both target themselves, and whoever I target, I'm blocked.

Scenario 2: One of them is loyal and the other is a traitor. Given that Biggoron was protected, and Clanky was scanned to be an Elantrian, so in this scenario they would probably both be Elantrians, and I would be blocked either way.

Scenario 2: They're both traitors, and only one of them (Clanky) is an Elantrian. In that case, they would have to choose who I seemed more likely to target. From my perspective, at least, it seemed more likely that they'd protect Clanky, because Biggoron had been protected last time. Thus, if I targeted Biggoron and he was protected again, he would be more likely to be loyal than if I targeted Clanky.

So it seems likely that Biggoron is loyal, although that doesn't mean he couldn't still be a traitor.

...And there was no traitor kill last night. Why would that be? No one's been inactive that I can remember.

[phattemer]

It would be because the traitor targeted me, your resident Voidbringer. I don't know why, but I think that's the only solution. I'll also put my vote on Elkanah, because my theory was right about Burnt and as such it is highly probable Elkanah is the Biochromancer. I already told Clanky and Biggoron this, but I think it's possible that the traitor Biochromancer targeted Orlok to take out PMs, but since it was a passive ability nothing happened.

[Elbereth she/her]

I guess that makes sense? I mean, maybe they forgot to role block you or something. I don't know.

[Clanky he/him]

That is a possibility that they targeted you phat but I doubt it. Assuming you are loyal the Traitors would have no reason to beleive you were lying about being a voidbringer especially assuming that they have already attacked you once on the cycle you claimed Hemalurgist. That leaves you as the unkillable even compared to me and Biggoron since we both could've potentially protected others. 

 

Perhaps you were supposed to be roleblocked but they forgot to send the order in? Or perhaps this is just a way of making you look innocent in a very roundabout WGG?

 

EDIT: Ninja'd by Elbereth

Edited December 13, 2015 by Clanky

[queensteph she/her]

I talked to no one last night :'-(

Anywho, I'm going to put my vote on Elkanah because of the biochromancer thingy. I normally wouldn't since I feel like I'm just getting on the lynch train but with the game coming to a close I feel like Lynch trains are more acceptable since there's more evidence towards traitors.

[Elbereth she/her]

I'm not sure about lynching Elkanah. I think it might actually be really unwise, as the HI will almost certainly turn. The reason I'm caring about that is because while the HI doesn't count for outnumbering the traitors, it does give them another lynch vote, which is a problem

Here's a thought I had. Burnt seemed far too willing to give herself up, don't you think? This kind of implies to me that there were multiple traitors left other than her before she died. It's possible there's only one, but I would guess there's still at least two out there.

The other thing it could mean is that we weren't on the right track at all. If Clanky and Biggoron were really both traitors, or if even one of them was, I think Burnt would have put up more of a fight. So... Well, obviously, I'm not sure, but I think that Lopen is the most suspicious, given all of that. He doesn't have any proof of being uninvested, and he's the one who has basically been driving the debate since Adavantos died.

I'm not sure if that even makes sense, but there it is.

[Clanky he/him]

I'm not sure about lynching Elkanah. I think it might actually be really unwise, as the HI will almost certainly turn. The reason I'm caring about that is because while the HI doesn't count for outnumbering the traitors, it does give them another lynch vote, which is a problem

Here's a thought I had. Burnt seemed far too willing to give herself up, don't you think? This kind of implies to me that there were multiple traitors left other than her before she died. It's possible there's only one, but I would guess there's still at least two out there.

The other thing it could mean is that we weren't on the right track at all. If Clanky and Biggoron were really both traitors, or if even one of them was, I think Burnt would have put up more of a fight. So... Well, obviously, I'm not sure, but I think that Lopen is the most suspicious, given all of that. He doesn't have any proof of being uninvested, and he's the one who has basically been driving the debate since Adavantos died.

I'm not sure if that even makes sense, but there it is.

It does make sense yes. I also don't like how he got you to waste your attack last cycle. But why was he so for having Burnt get lynched? Like the game is far enough along that the traitors probably could have delayed having burnt lynched based on her being a Kandra. If I were a traitor planning on lynching my Kandra I would say that I found a traitor first. Then upon lynching the false traitor they would continue on to kill Burnt but we would have been down one more loyal player. 

[Elbereth she/her]

I don't think it was wasted. I think attacking Biggoron was a good choice, from where I stood at the time.

Actually, you're bringing up some points which make me think Lopen's good now. For instance, he mentioned in a PM that it didn't make sense that Burnt hadn't said Elkanah was a traitor, unless Elkanah was a traitor as well. If he were a traitor, I would think he would have thought of that and suggested it. It's possible that no one thought of it until after the cycle was done, but that seems less likely.

...On to Elkanah, then? I'm still not sure that's wise, but I no longer want to lynch Lopen. I guess.

Why do eliminators have to be so good at being loyal?

[Hellscythe he/him]

Elkanah is the hemalurgist guys. If we lose him the game could very well end the next day if I join the traitor team and there's 2 of them left.

I scanned Lopen last night and he is the Traitor Biochromancer. The last one if there is another one is somewhere amongst the people with roles that's not Elkanah. From my point of view he's proven innocent seeing as I haven't turned yet.

[Elbereth she/her]

If you join the traitor team and there's still two others, why would the game end? There are currently nine players (including the HI). If we kill Elkanah, and the HI turns, there are then three eliminators and 5 loyals. Assuming I make a kill on a Loyal by mistake and the eliminators actually make a kill, there will be three eliminators and three loyals the next day. And if I'm remembering right, the HI doesn't count towards outnumbering the loyals if he's a traitor and vice versa, so the game would at least continue until the end of the next day. Or did I miss something?

Okay, this is what seems most sensible to me: We lynch Lopen. If Lopen's good, I immediately kill Elkanah (and if I fail we'll lynch them the next day). We get a traitor that way. If he's bad, we've still gotten a traitor.

...Does anyone see any problems with that? Because I feel like there should be one, and I can't find it.

[queensteph she/her]

If Elkanah is a traitor then that means that the HI has already turned so idk if the HI is trying to lead us away from Elkanah by saying Lopen is the biochromancer??

If we kill Elkanah and he's a traitor then we may have won.

If he's loyal then Elbereth could go after Lopen at night, and we will win.

(All this assuming there's only one traitor left. )

Even if the eliminators do have another player (plus the HI) to vote, we still have my ability which could outnumber their vote if us loyals all vote on the same person.

Also, if Elkanah is a traitor then that clears Lopen since we'll know that the HI had turned already. (Right?)

Edit: OK so what abilities do we think the eliminators could still have ? Voidbringer and/or hemalurgust?? I can't remember.

Also would it be a good idea to protect me or no?

Edited December 14, 2015 by queensteph

[TheMightyLopen he/him]

I don't think it was wasted. I think attacking Biggoron was a good choice, from where I stood at the time.

Actually, you're bringing up some points which make me think Lopen's good now. For instance, he mentioned in a PM that it didn't make sense that Burnt hadn't said Elkanah was a traitor, unless Elkanah was a traitor as well. If he were a traitor, I would think he would have thought of that and suggested it. It's possible that no one thought of it until after the cycle was done, but that seems less likely.

...On to Elkanah, then? I'm still not sure that's wise, but I no longer want to lynch Lopen. I guess.

Why do eliminators have to be so good at being loyal?

 

What she said. The attack wasn't a waste. It does help to soft-confirm that Biggoron is indeed an Elantrian. While it's certainly possible that Clanky could have guessed right, it's still better than nothing.

 

Yeah, I'll explain about the Burnt and Elkanah thing. First off, in the "loyals" PM I made 2 Nights back, we were talking about scanning Elkanah and what we would do depending on the results of the scan. I said it might be a good idea to lynch Burnt if Elkanah turned up Loyal, so that we could clear the scanned group and the HI. There was also the small proposal that we might lynch Alvron instead of Elkanah if he turned up Loyal, because I though Alvron might be the BioChromancer if Elkanah wasn't. Of course, at the time I thought Burnt was Loyal so I thought the scan would be truthful, which would clear Elkanah. Alvron was Mistborn killed that Night, so Burnt should have known that if she announced that Elkanah was Loyal, she had a good chance of being lynched. She went ahead and said Elk was scanned as Loyal anyways, which doesn't really make sense to me. If she knew she had a good chance of getting lynched that Turn, why not scan Elkanah as a Traitor and take a Loyal out and turn the HI? Obviously she would die soon after for giving a false scan, but she would have gained a new Traitor while killing a Loyal at the same time. So, why didn't she do this? I believe it's because Elkanah was a Traitor as well, and she knew that she would get outed at some point. Either because she would eventually have to scan someone as a Traitor, and then once that person was dead, she would die as well, or because we would kill her for the information it would give us(like we did). 

 

I wasn't quite sure about this, since I was still a bit suspicious of Clanky and Biggoron, but seeing this post from the HI confirms it for me.

 

Elkanah is the hemalurgist guys. If we lose him the game could very well end the next day if I join the traitor team and there's 2 of them left.

I scanned Lopen last night and he is the Traitor Biochromancer. The last one if there is another one is somewhere amongst the people with roles that's not Elkanah. From my point of view he's proven innocent seeing as I haven't turned yet.

 

I am neither a Traitor nor a BioChromancer. This confirms to me that the HI has turned Traitor, but obviously it doesn't help you guys too much since you have no way of knowing my role since I don't have one and therefore have never affected anything regarding actions.

 

If you join the traitor team and there's still two others, why would the game end? There are currently nine players (including the HI). If we kill Elkanah, and the HI turns, there are then three eliminators and 5 loyals. Assuming I make a kill on a Loyal by mistake and the eliminators actually make a kill, there will be three eliminators and three loyals the next day. And if I'm remembering right, the HI doesn't count towards outnumbering the loyals if he's a traitor and vice versa, so the game would at least continue until the end of the next day. Or did I miss something?

Okay, this is what seems most sensible to me: We lynch Lopen. If Lopen's good, I immediately kill Elkanah (and if I fail we'll lynch them the next day). We get a traitor that way. If he's bad, we've still gotten a traitor.

...Does anyone see any problems with that? Because I feel like there should be one, and I can't find it.

 

Okay, scenario time. We have 9 players.

1. Probably either 7:2(Elkanah and HI) or 6:3(Elkanah, HI and ???).

2. If I am lynched: 6:2(Elkanah and HI) or 5:3(Elkanah, HI and ???).

3. A Traitor kill later(Elbereth will most likely be blocked at that point, and if she's not then she will kill Elkanah, a confirmed Traitor at that point): 5:2(Elkanah and HI) or 4:3(Elkanah, HI and ???).

4. Lynch Elkanah: 5:1(VICTORY!! The HI would still be alive obviously, but he can't do anything at that point.) or 4:2(HI and ???).

5. Traitor kill: 3:2(HI and ???).

6. Lynch(Orlok maybe? I'm not sure. I believe Steph is Loyal. Her vote on Elkanah is a major factor for me though, so that evidence for her can't be used at the moment. That leaves Phatt, Clanky and Biggoron. I'm fairly sure that all of them are what they say they are now, and I just don't know if having 7 Traitors with 2 protective roles would be balanced, so I would say they're most likely Loyal. I would choose Orlok because of how he tried to change the lynch away from Burnt and onto Biggoron. Also the way he was going after Alvron and because he's a Surgebinder. One thing I should mention about him though is that in the "loyals" PM he seemed to be okay with Elkanah getting killed. Because at one point we thought Elbereth was gonna kill Elk, but she decided to tap Biggoron to test his role. Arraenae was supposed to tap Phatt to confirm his role as well, but then she decided to kill Alvron instead. Orlok said something like "kill Phatt and Elkanah, and scan Alvron." All of this leads me to believe that Elkanah is the last remaining Traitor, but I'm not totally sure about that.): Either 2:2(HI and ???) or 3:1(Victory!! HI remains)

 

The one thing that worries me and makes me think that Elkanah might not be the last Traitor is because Hellscythe is lying about me like this. There doesn't really seem to be a point to going through all this if they're just going to lose the very next Cycle. It may just be him trying to prolong Elkanah's death or something, but it does unnerve me a little. If you guys feel like the smart thing to do is lynch me, then I will at least ask that you go through all of my posts and my PM's with all of you and take that into account when you're making your decision about whether to lynch me or not.

 

I think that's about it. If you guys have any questions, just go ahead and ask. I'll answer as fast and in as much detail as I can for anything you are wondering about. My vote is on Elkanah.

 

Vote tally:

 

Elkanah(4): Clanky, Phattemer, Steph, Lopen

Lopen(1): Elbereth

 

@Steph, if you're going to use your power please inform everyone so we insure that we do have a lynch(regardless of who it is, me or Elkanah).

 

Edit: Forgot to respond to Steph's edit. 

 

If there are 2 more Traitors(besides the HI of course), then I would guess either Surgebinder(Orlok), Feruchemist(Steph) or Voidbringer(Phatt). To me, giving the Traitors an Elantrian and a Voidbringer seems too overpowered. Especially since that would mean that the Loyals only got one Elantrian as well and that doesn't exactly seem balanced to me. Voidbringer is almost the same situation too, except that it can only block the one person, so it's not quite as useful imo.

Edited December 14, 2015 by TheMightyLopen

[Elbereth she/her]

After thinking about this last night, too many things don't make sense for Lopen to be a BioChromancer. Why didn't he target anyone last night? For that matter, why didn't he target me? Phatt, were you targeted? If I'd been targeted, we'd have still been lynching Clanky/Biggoron. Unless Lopen didn't target me deliberately to draw my attention away from Clanky/Biggoron...somehow.... My brain hurts.

As it stands now, I think lynching Elkanah is a better choice than Lopen. I mean, it's still possible that Lopen's a traitor, but I don't think he's a BioChromancer, at least.