Hemalurgy in the cosmere

[rabidhexley]

It seems that the discussion has wandered away from the point (or one of them) about what makes Hemalurgy the most important Metallic Art. Both Feruchemistry and Allomancy focus on the physical realm, while touching on the other realms. From the wording that Sanderson gives in the Ars Arkenaum(pardon the spelling), he uses the term Spiritweb. I have little idea what the Spiritweb is, but it seems that that alone makes Hemalurgy the most important Art, since we know so little about the Spiritual Realm. 

 

This is a pretty good point. Hemalurgy is definitely making some sort of modification on the spiritual realm, since that has something to do with how inbred or other "inherent" (as in, magic that is actually part of the individual using it) is possessed. Especially since it's capabilities go far beyond just transferring magical abilities.

 

Another important thing to consider is how Hermalurgy could potentially be used to bridge multiple forms of Investiture together between separate shards. I mean in a way beyond one person possessing magic abilities from different worlds, which are really just multiple separate Investitures being made by one person (with how I would understand that to work).

 

What are the potential ramifications of someone making an Investiture into many or all of the Shards at once?  Such as how Ferruchemy is one magic, but of multiple Shards. Could someone create a new form of magical creature using spikes from different Shardworlds? Similar to Koloss or Kandra. Someone with the sufficient knowledge of Hermalurgy and the necessary resources could potentially make a unified form of magic bridging all of the Shards. We start leaning into Adonalsium territory at this point.

 

Considering the fact that all of these things are even *possibilities* for Hemalurgy makes its importance almost pretty apparent, I feel.

[Ari he/him]

This is a pretty good point. Hemalurgy is definitely making some sort of modification on the spiritual realm, since that has something to do with how inbred or other "inherent" (as in, magic that is actually part of the individual using it) is possessed. Especially since it's capabilities go far beyond just transferring magical abilities.

 

Another important thing to consider is how Hermalurgy could potentially be used to bridge multiple forms of Investiture together between separate shards. I mean in a way beyond one person possessing magic abilities from different worlds, which are really just multiple separate Investitures being made by one person (with how I would understand that to work).

 

What are the potential ramifications of someone making an Investiture into many or all of the Shards at once?  Such as how Ferruchemy is one magic, but of multiple Shards. Could someone create a new form of magical creature using spikes from different Shardworlds? Similar to Koloss or Kandra. Someone with the sufficient knowledge of Hermalurgy and the necessary resources could potentially make a unified form of magic bridging all of the Shards. We start leaning into Adonalsium territory at this point.

 

Considering the fact that all of these things are even *possibilities* for Hemalurgy makes its importance almost pretty apparent, I feel.

 

Brandon has described in pretty good detail how Hemalurgy works, he's just used his own realmatic jargon so we don't know the specifics of how to apply that as we've never had the jargon or the basics of realmatics explained.

 

People have "spiritwebs", a spiritual aspect of themselves that consists of various pieces of self-conception, bound together by some sort of spiritual bond. Hemalurgic spikes used properly rip away a portion of that spirit web, (either an ability-based one, or an identity-based one)  and if inserted into the correct bind point to correspond with the correct portion of the spirit web, they will "staple" that piece of spiritual identity back on to the recipient, rewriting their own web. (we don't know if it overwrites some of your identity, or simply adds to your web)

 

Given that most of what we know about the Spiritual aspect of Realmatics is that distance is pretty irrelevant in the Spiritual Realm, that some feruchemical powers are Spiritual in nature, and that dead Shardblades go there when not in use, you can see why the possibilities of hemalurgy beyond what's listed as explicitly possible in Mistborn Ars Arcana are widely open for debate.

[Lord Ruler he/him]

Brandon has described in pretty good detail how Hemalurgy works, he's just used his own realmatic jargon so we don't know the specifics of how to apply that as we've never had the jargon or the basics of realmatics explained.

 

People have "spiritwebs", a spiritual aspect of themselves that consists of various pieces of self-conception, bound together by some sort of spiritual bond. Hemalurgic spikes used properly rip away a portion of that spirit web, (either an ability-based one, or an identity-based one)  and if inserted into the correct bind point to correspond with the correct portion of the spirit web, they will "staple" that piece of spiritual identity back on to the recipient, rewriting their own web. (we don't know if it overwrites some of your identity, or simply adds to your web)

 

Given that most of what we know about the Spiritual aspect of Realmatics is that distance is pretty irrelevant in the Spiritual Realm, that some feruchemical powers are Spiritual in nature, and that dead Shardblades go there when not in use, you can see why the possibilities of hemalurgy beyond what's listed as explicitly possible in Mistborn Ars Arcana are widely open for debate.

This sounds like a permanent sort of soul stamping. What if you could permanently soul stamp your own spirit web and create a way to imitate someone identically all the time. You could, like other people have brilliantly said, spike someone with shards power and bring that spike to another universe to be able to use it there to an extent. Also, if you got good at spiking and hemalurgy you could spike a shard (crazy, but maybe possible) and stole their powers. Is there any extent of hemalurgy? The metal docent need to be a certain size. You only need shards knowledge. This is even crazier, but what if odium has a similar sort of hemalurgic art up his sleeve and that is how he hurts other shards.

 

By the way, I love how great this post became, and it was my first one, so thanks everybody, especially because I don comment on here much. Upvote for everyone!!! 

[Three1415]

I am new here (as you can probably see), so I have no idea whether or not this has already been proposed, but could this be what Hoid/Wit is trying to do by worldhopping so much? I can completely see him spiking random people and acquiring powers from around the Cosmere, and I remember him saying in WoR that he "will let the world burn to get what [he] need"--I could see that as inducing Desolations in order to get Surges to manifest so that he could steal them. He also appears quite nonchalant about things like being impaled by a Shardblade, and he can world-hop in the first place, so perhaps he has already acquired some of the other Shardworld's powers...

 

This would also fit with the WoB; if Wit were trying to do something like "reforging Adonalsium" by acquiring all the powers from around the Cosmere, Hemalurgy would indeed be of great importance to its future, not to mention explaining why the 17th Shard (I mean the actual in-Cosmere organization, of course, not the forums  ) is trying to track him down. 

[Stormgate he/him]

I am new here (as you can probably see), so I have no idea whether or not this has already been proposed, but could this be what Hoid/Wit is trying to do by worldhopping so much? I can completely see him spiking random people and acquiring powers from around the Cosmere, and I remember him saying in WoR that he "will let the world burn to get what [he] need"--I could see that as inducing Desolations in order to get Surges to manifest so that he could steal them. He also appears quite nonchalant about things like being impaled by a Shardblade, and he can world-hop in the first place, so perhaps he has already acquired some of the other Shardworld's powers...

 

This would also fit with the WoB; if Wit were trying to do something like "reforging Adonalsium" by acquiring all the powers from around the Cosmere, Hemalurgy would indeed be of great importance to its future, not to mention explaining why the 17th Shard (I mean the actual in-Cosmere organization, of course, not the forums  ) is trying to track him down.

Welcome to the Shard! As a nerd, I appreciate your pun name.

Ahem. It has been confirmed that Hoid does not practice Hemalurgy. However, he has Feruchemy, Allomancy, Lightweaving, and is suspected to have a significant number of Breaths. I may have forgotten something, but that's Hoid's powers.

[Oversleep]

I call colour based spikes on Nalthis.

[Stormgate he/him]

I call colour based spikes on Nalthis.

Oversleep! Get your head out of the Dark Alley!

Edit: Hoid is the Cosmere version of a Pokemon Trainer (Gotta catch them all!)

Edited December 4, 2015 by Stormgate

[Oversleep]

I call colour based spikes on Nalthis.

 

Oversleep! Get your head out of the Dark Alley!

You mean that DA people figured it out already?

[Stormgate he/him]

You mean that DA people figured it out already?

I meant it as a ply on 'gets your head out of the gutter'. You are a Knight, and a mere Theoryweaver should not have to remind you of that. Now go and tell your spren sorry.

[Oversleep]

Well, as the holder of the Blade of Theoryshapers I extrapolated it upon Hemalurgical spikes needing to came in contact with flowing blood, but the part of them being made of allomantic metals allowing to steal specific traits may work only on Scadrial. Seems like colours with them having to do with Awakening is a safe guess to be defining what can spikes steal on Nalthis.
But I have to wonder what can exactly be stolen on Nalthis? Apart from all these human traits, you can pretty much steal only Breaths, there are no specific abilities about Awakening. Breaths are Breaths, there is no difference between them.

Edited December 5, 2015 by Oversleep

[Stormgate he/him]

Your theory is sound, but stinks too much of the Alley for my taste. Wondering what you can steal on Nalthis still needs to be theorized on, but carefully.

Note: If anyone from the Dark Alley sees this, I am in Nebrask, fighting wild chalklings.

[Oversleep]

Your theory is sound, but stinks too much of the Alley for my taste. Wondering what you can steal on Nalthis still needs to be theorized on, but carefully.

Note: If anyone from the Dark Alley sees this, I am in Nebrask, fighting wild chalklings.

Well, it's a topic about Hemalurgy, it's kind of hard not to stink of the Alley. And Dark Alley is bound to see this for exactly this reason. Can't be helped.

[Eagle of the Forest Path he/him]

Yeah... IIRC the focus on Nalthis is "commands", not "colour". (and good luck getting a command in contact with flowing blood  )

 

We know with certainty that Hemalurgy is the magic system based on/linked to the shard Ruin.

We know that magic systems arise due to the presence of a shard on a specific planet.

We know that the focus for a magic system is determined by the planet the system arose on. (otherwise Hoid would have had to burn powdered gems to use Allomancy on Roshar, right?)

So even though Hemalurgy can be used cosmere-wide, by people from any planet, I think spikes would be made out of metal anywhere, since Hemalurgy came into being because of Ruin's presence on Scadrial (where metals are the focus for magic).

[Yata he/him]

Yeah... IIRC the focus on Nalthis is "commands", not "colour". (and good luck getting a command in contact with flowing blood  )

 

We know with certainty that Hemalurgy is the magic system based on/linked to the shard Ruin.

We know that magic systems arise due to the presence of a shard on a specific planet.

We know that the focus for a magic system is determined by the planet the system arose on. (otherwise Hoid would have had to burn powdered gems to use Allomancy on Roshar, right?)

So even though Hemalurgy can be used cosmere-wide, by people from any planet, I think spikes would be made out of metal anywhere, since Hemalurgy came into being because of Ruin's presence on Scadrial (where metals are the focus for magic).

It is exactly I think the Hemalurgy works.

Hemalurgy= Ruin's Investiture+ Scadrial Focus (metal).

In any other place (shardworld) with a different focus, he probably generate another kind of Magic-System Ruin-related but not the Hemalurgy.

But in the real Cosmere, Ruin is on Scadrial and had a connection to the Scadrial's Focus.

Edited December 5, 2015 by Yata

[iBambam]

Well, as the holder of the Blade of Theoryshapers I extrapolated it upon Hemalurgical spikes needing to came in contact with flowing blood, but the part of them being made of allomantic metals allowing to steal specific traits may work only on Scadrial. Seems like colours with them having to do with Awakening is a safe guess to be defining what can spikes steal on Nalthis.

But I have to wonder what can exactly be stolen on Nalthis? Apart from all these human traits, you can pretty much steal only Breaths, there are no specific abilities about Awakening. Breaths are Breaths, there is no difference between them.

I don't know if it would even be necessary to steal breaths with hemalurgy. Most give theirs willingly, and as seen in warbreaker, torture is a method used to take someone's breath as well.

[DreamEternal]

The interesting think about Breaths is that they can store information in the form of commands, which means they can be shaped by intent in a limited way.

I wonder if this could be explored in a way that shaped the breath into a fake spiritweb fragment of sorts, so you could have something like Hemalurgy, but more flexible, safe, reversible and with no bloody corpses and less torn souls .

Unless you make lifeless into a Koloss

[natc]

Turn a lifeless Kalad's Phantom army into koloss with pewterarm and steelrunner/steel compounder powers.

Edited December 5, 2015 by natc

[iBambam]

Turn a lifeless Kalad's Phantom army into koloss with pewterarm and steelrunner/steel compounder powers.

This would be terrifying.

[DreamEternal]

This would be terrifying.

Honestly, if the Breath-to-spiritweb trick works as I think, you could just design your custom magic system in a way much more efficient than any natural system.