Shards of what?

[TaliaRain]

Hi all, I am somewhat of new here and not that well versed in cosmeric knowledge. I have read most of Sanderson's books, but mostly before becoming cosmere aware. However I was recently re-reading Way of Kings and something stood out which got me thinking about the way the term "shard" is used. So I'm going to throw this out here, bear with me if it is a bit disjointed.

 

So far I have identified three uses of the term that may or may not be related:

 

Obviously we have the Shards of Adonalsium; I don't have much more to say about them.

 

Then on Roshar we have the somewhat mysterious Dawnshards. I don't think we know much about them either.

 

Finally, also on Roshar, we have shardblades and shardplate and the shardbearers who carry them.

 

It would be possible to construct an argument wherein all these three refer to the same thing, but I find it unlikely. In particular I find it unlikely that the shard in shardbearers refers to the Shards of Adonalsium. Shardbearers, while relatively rare are common knowledge while the Shards of Adonalsium are not. It is possible that it is a linguistic artifact of a time when cosmerology was a thing, but this is not the sort of thing we see on any other shardworld. People tend not to call their dieties "shards".

 

What then does the shard in shardbearer refer to? I do not know, but I found the quote at the beginning of chapter 2 "Honor is Dead" interesting:

 

Ten orders. We were loved, once. Why have you forsaken us, Almighty! Shard of my soul, where have you gone?

 

[Shardlet he/him]

There is no clearly established tie (that I know of) between shardblades and plate to Shards of Adonalsium (yet).  A shardbearer of course is one who wields or wears a shardblade and/or shardplate.  I personally theorize (http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/3713-theory-the-origin-nature-and-purpose-of-shardblades/'>here) that shardblades are made with a voluntary splinter (a piece of a Shard) of Honor and/or Cultivation.  This would tie shardblades to Shards of Adonalsium.  I am less certain of how to apply such a relationship to plate.   

 

As to the shared usage of the term "shard" I suspect there is a connection since I don't see any particular aspects or characteristics of shardblades or shardplate that would result in the use of the term "shard" to describe them.

[TaliaRain]

My (mostly unsubstantiated) theory is that they are, in fact, physical manifestations of shards of the original bearer's soul. That this is why spren such as Syl have aversion to them, spren having an affinity for the spiritual. That this is why they "lost something" when abandoned.

[Crysanja]

the name SHARDblade and SHARDplate could be a very human thing.

 

do we have any Radiant or someone in Dalinars vision calling them SHARDS?

 

 

let the series start 20 years later, and halveSHARDS would be a known item, called SHARD too.

 

 

i can see a connection between cut gems(shards?) and SHARDplates, which use gems as power source.

 

 

not everything the characters in the book say/think/belive is true. there can be alot of missdirection for the reader.

 

 

but youre right there could be a connection or not, we just dont know much and from bad sources, until further books are out.

[Moogle]

My reading of Taln's torturous cry (I assume it's Taln) is that his spren is gone. Spren, I would guess, don't have any presence in the Spiritual - they are entirely Cognitive, shaped by people's perceptions, until bonded to with a human. A small portion of the soul (as Syl says, Kaladin is giving up something, and she's giving him something in return) is 'clipped' (much like taking a cutting of a plant to grow a new one, and yes I am drawing an allusion to Cultivation here) and goes to the spren, granting it intelligence and personality, and the human being bonded gets to Surgebind.

 

This means that every spren is, in effect, a shard of the person's soul. And Taln's is gone, and he misses it, much like Kaladin would miss Syl if she were taken away.

[Shardlet he/him]

The rub is, we don't know anything really about the nature of the Heralds except that when they die they go to Damnation until the time of the next desolation.  We don't know anything about their abilities.  And, we have seen no indication so far that they are bonded with a spren.  This is one of the aspects of WoR I am most looking forward to.  I am thirsty for more info on the Heralds.

[GreyPilgrim he/him]

/>do we have any Radiant or someone in Dalinars vision calling them SHARDS?

Well, there's this:

"Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination. Speak again the ancient oaths and return to men the Shards they once bore."

Since the Almighty said this, I am even more convinced that there is a direct connection between Shards and Shardblades and plate.

Moogle, I like your take on that quote. My only issue is that, unless the death cries are Heralds reaching out into people, which I don't believe is the case, then Taln could not have said it. It is possible he influenced it somehow, but that doesn't feel right to me. (I should note that I have no idea what is going on with the death cries.) Why do you think it is his tortuous cry?

I agree with Shardlet that we also don't really know anything about the Heralds. I am also really excited for WoR and beyond so we can continue to piece the little things together. I really can't wait for Taln's PoV!

[hoser he/him]

Welcome Moogle.  Thanks for contributing!

My reading of Taln's torturous cry (I assume it's Taln) is that his spren is gone. Spren, I would guess, don't have any presence in the Spiritual - they are entirely Cognitive, shaped by people's perceptions, until bonded to with a human. A small portion of the soul (as Syl says, Kaladin is giving up something, and she's giving him something in return) is 'clipped' (much like taking a cutting of a plant to grow a new one, and yes I am drawing an allusion to Cultivation here) and goes to the spren, granting it intelligence and personality, and the human being bonded gets to Surgebind.

 

This means that every spren is, in effect, a shard of the person's soul. And Taln's is gone, and he misses it, much like Kaladin would miss Syl if she were taken away.

What a great way to interpret this cry and put pieces of this puzzle together! 

 

Unfortunately, it doesn't quite fit for me. 

 

The ten orders seems to refer to the Radiants, as the heralds existed before the Radiants and were individuals.  So the POV for the quote in the OP seems to be that of a Radiant, not a Herald.  This is confirmed by the lament that "We were loved".  The heralds are still loved and revered, but the Radiants went from being loved and trusted to being reviled. 

Given that it is a Radiant speaking, I think that this is after Tanavast has been removed from control of the Shard Honor (presumably killed) and the Shard is either splintered or being splintered. 

In the Starfalls flashback, the farm wife exclaims, "Three Gods".  I infer from the OP quote and that flashback instance that the Radiants understood that there were Shards of Adonalsium.  I interpret the OP quote quite literally, and infer that the Radiants had been able to communicate with Tanavast, or at least could detect Honor's existence.  Further, they knew that their swords and armor were magically invested by said Shards, so that is why they called them Shardblades. 

Honor is still splintered and Kaladin has a spren relationship giving him magical abilities.  The Radiants seem to have had access to magic until the Recreance (they glowed and the Windrunners flew in), so I don't find the idea that they lost access to their spren before they quit to be supported. 

The rub is, we don't know anything really about the nature of the Heralds except that when they die they go to Damnation until the time of the next desolation.  We don't know anything about their abilities.  And, we have seen no indication so far that they are bonded with a spren.  This is one of the aspects of WoR I am most looking forward to.  I am thirsty for more info on the Heralds.

While I generally agree with all of this, there are mutiple references to a Proving Day, where I believe they passed tests/were chosen.  They don't fit the racial types on Roshar.  The one Herald POV has no communication w/a spren.  There are Vorin beliefs about being expelled from something called the Tranquilline Halls after a long struggle. 

I infer that the Heralds were chosen before people came to Roshar and have no spren bonds.  I assume spren are unique to Roshar and the nearby limits of Shardic influence.

What is puzzling to me is that Kalak doesn't communicate w/Tanavast before packing it in.  We have word of Brandon that Tanavast was around at the time of the Heralds quitting.  The heralds make reference to a male someone not being bound.  I assume they are talking about Odium.  If they know about the Oathpact and Odium, they must know about Honor. 

[Shardlet he/him]

I don't know how direct the communication between Honor and the Heralds and the KR was.  I doubt such communication was commonplace.  Your point about Kalak not consulting before throwing in the towel suggests to me that even the Heralds didn't call up Honor to get instructions or to consult.  This further suggests to me a greater unlikelyhood that the KR had any direct means of communicating with Honor.  The death cry in the OP strikes me to be more of a lament spoken at a god rather than to a god.  A prayer at best.

Edited September 7, 2013 by Shardlet

[Moogle]

Moogle, I like your take on that quote. My only issue is that, unless the death cries are Heralds reaching out into people, which I don't believe is the case, then Taln could not have said it. It is possible he influenced it somehow, but that doesn't feel right to me. (I should note that I have no idea what is going on with the death cries.) Why do you think it is his tortuous cry?

I don't believe that all the death cries are the Heralds. I think that a good portion are:

• “A woman sits and scratches out her own eyes. Daughter of kings and winds, the vandal.” This one speaks of Baxil's mistress, who is likely a Herald (and happens to be the daughter of Jezrien?).
• “Ten people, with Shardblades alight, standing before a wall of black and white and red.” Ten Heralds at the Oathpact?
• “The burdens of nine become mine. Why must I carry the madness of them all? Oh, Almighty, release me.” This one is 99% likely to be Taln, who has to deal with all the torture reserved for the other 9 Heralds. I am interested in seeing if there is an interpretation of this that isn't Taln speaking.

Other quotes refer to the Ten Fools (or whatever they're called, Yelignar/Re-Shiphir, they represent the opposites of the Ten Divine Attributes likely), Radiants, etc. I think it's very likely that individuals are in fact 'speaking' in these death cries, though it's perhaps not a conscious choice. I mean, take a look at this:

• “Above the final void I hang, friends behind, friends before. The feast I must drink clings to their faces, and the words I must speak spark in my mind. The old oaths will be spoken anew.”

This refers to Kaladin (who spoke the second Ideal, who 'feasted' on the Stormlight in the beards of the Parshendi), who definitely never spoke those words.

 

I get the feeling that things are less... firm, on Roshar, than most places in the Cosmere. Easy access to Shadesmar, coupled with the highstorms (which seem to be the reason why spren are visible) definitely make it seem like the Cognitive realm plays a much bigger part. The messages from the death cries could just be 'reflections' of a person's state of mind, caught in Shadesmar, and sent back/forward in time to people dying. This, of course, is more musing than an actual theory of mine, but the point I am trying to get across is that the Heralds are definitely represented in the epigraphs.

 

That said, I am willing to concede that this quote in particular is unlikely to be Taln. A mistake by me! It's more likely to be a random Radiant (my spren theory is mostly based around Kaladin's interactions with Syl, and so fits Radiants rather than Heralds). We don't know enough about the Heralds, and there is a distinct lack of spren mentioned with Kalak.

 

 

The Radiants seem to have had access to magic until the Recreance (they glowed and the Windrunners flew in), so I don't find the idea that they lost access to their spren before they quit to be supported. 

 

I agree. Perhaps giving up their Blades at the Recreance betrayed the Ideals or something, which would have broken their connection to their spren - hence the quote in question, wondering where the shard of his soul has gone.

Edited September 7, 2013 by Moogle