How we refer to Honor

[Morsk he/him]

I am going to suggest that maybe there is a distinction between actions of a Shard and the use of the power of a shard.  Preservation could probably act in small ways against the intent of the Shard (as in the case of stabbing Elend), but could not use the power of the shard (notice capitalization of Shard v. shard; shard = chunk of Adonalsium, Shard = entity holding a shard , i.e., entity plus shard) in a manner contrary to the intent of the shard.  This would explain why Rashek could not use the power of Preservation to kill Kwaan.  He attempted to smite him with the power directly.

I like this distinction. It does mean that "kill Ruin through mutual annihilation" is within the scope of Preservation's power, while "kill a human directly" isn't though. That makes sense to me because Ruin's relationship to Preservation is special, but some people might find it too contradictory.

What I get stuck on is why Leras is fine with stabbing Elend, but wasn't able to bring himself to kill Ruin. This has to be a case where it's the intent holding him back, not the nature of the power itself. Yet we see him willing to kill in order to protect Ruin's prison. Maybe it's just a matter of degree. Killing two Shards and changing the entire nature of the planet was too much change for a being who likes stasis? But killing one person, especially to maintain the status quo, was something he could talk himself into.

[Meg]

There are some statements from BS about how the Shard's Intent changes the (mind of) the person that is holding a Shard's power.

 

BRANDON SANDERSON (paraphrased)

Shards and Shard intents: Holding a Shard is a contest of willpower against the Shard that, over time, is very hard to resist.

Shards affect you over time, but your mind will not leave a permanent effect on the Shard. A holder's personality, however, does get to filter the Shard's intent, so to speak. However, if that holder no longer held that Shard, the Shard will not continue to be filtered by that person.

 

source

 

I'm fairly sure I saw at least another one, but I can't find it at the moment. Hopefully this quote helps a bit.

 

 

BS also said that everybody can take up a Shard('s power).

 

I think, that combined with the permanent struggle that a Shard's holder has to endure shows, why Vin could do things that Leras couldn't. On the one hand she surely had another personality than Leras, and on the other hand, she held Preservation only a very short time (compared to Leras) so that she still was able to fight against Ruin, while Leras already had been too influenced by Preservation to act this way.

 

(PS: Disclaimer: My spellchecker doesn't work here, so I beg for you to bear with eventual typos and that.)

[WeiryWriter he/him]

I like this distinction. It does mean that "kill Ruin through mutual annihilation" is within the scope of Preservation's power, while "kill a human directly" isn't though. That makes sense to me because Ruin's relationship to Preservation is special, but some people might find it too contradictory.

What I get stuck on is why Leras is fine with stabbing Elend, but wasn't able to bring himself to kill Ruin. This has to be a case where it's the intent holding him back, not the nature of the power itself. Yet we see him willing to kill in order to protect Ruin's prison. Maybe it's just a matter of degree. Killing two Shards and changing the entire nature of the planet was too much change for a being who likes stasis? But killing one person, especially to maintain the status quo, was something he could talk himself into.

 

According to my understanding that is correct, Morsk.  It's all about relative magnitudes.  Killing a human is a relatively small bit of ruination more than outweighed by the preservation of Ruin's prison.  Killing two shards?  That piece of ruination is to much for Leras!Preservation, which is why Vin had to do it.

[Vortaan he/him]

I think you're being ungenerous here, Vortaan. If you show Ruin some sticks and a chasm that he can't jump--on the other side of which is a city ripe for Ruination--he will make those sticks into a (twisted and ugly, but still perfectly functional) ladder so that he can destroy the city. Making the ladder--imposing a unique and purposeful order on something--is a creative act in my book.

 

Ruin gets to be even more Ruinous after the bargain, in the long run, while Preservation gets to Preserve stuff against Ruin indefinitely if his betrayal works.

 

I believe that it works better if you think of Ruin and Preservation, and perhaps all Shards, in terms of what you end up with at the end. For your example, I doubt Ruin actually could do that because at the end, there would not be less sticks than there were before. If, however, some of those sticks were sacrificed in the building of the bridge, burned up to make it stronger... then yes, I'd agree. For the same reason that Preservation needs to have at least what he started out with to work, Ruin can't end up with more than he started with.

 

To take this to Honor, I wonder if Honor, at the end of his process, needs things to be more cohesive/united than they were before. So far his magic system seems to focus on bonds, and while we're not sure about the powers of most of the orders of KR, I wonder if bonding in general is the theme that runs throughout them. Kaladin creates bonds, and it could be argued that Shallan and Jasnah change them, so that something that is many different things becomes one continuous thing.

 

This thread has gone an interesting direction, hasn't it?

[Kurkistan he/him]

Perhaps, but I still doubt it. So far as Ruin is concerned, "what he started with" is a pile of sticks and an intact city. I think he'd count it as a win if he ends with a serviceable ladder and a city in Ruins.

 

Think of it this way: What would Ruin do if he only had 2 options available to him? He can either build a functional ladder (without undo sacrifice) and then burn the city down but leave the ladder alone, or he can burn the sticks and not do anything else. If he chooses the first, then that ladder will stay intact and functional for the foreseeable future, and there's nothing Ruin can do about it.

 

If you explained this state of affairs to Ruin, do you think he'd say "oh, well I can't do anything that would 'preserve' the sticks, so I guess I'll just set the sticks on fire and call it a day"? I do not.

 

And yes, it has gone an interesting direction. Thread-derailing can be quite fun.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Vortaan he/him]

I think this heads into my earlier example though. Ati, after just taking up Ruin, could probably do what you're saying. But Ati, having had Ruin for centuries, may not even be able to see that as an option anymore. 

[Kurkistan he/him]

I suppose we just disagree, then. I think that Ati-Ruin could build a ladder after a million years.

[Vortaan he/him]

Fair enough. I think we'll have more to base this on when we see more Shards doing things. I also think some more knowledge of the Oathpact might shine some light on the limits of Shards.