Is Kaladin literally just Jesus?

[Returned he/him]

13 minutes ago, First of the Tide said:

Yeah, I didn't think so either, but didn't want to talk for you without knowing for sure.

No worries, just clarifying the intent from the text as that's been more of an issue in this thread than some other times.

[Schizoposting]

3 hours ago, Returned said:

I think that items 1, 2, 3, 8, 9, and 10 are not very sound

Could you elaborate? I'll admit that 1 is a bit more speculative, and 10 is a prediction for the back half (albeit one that's very likely), but the others I think are very much sound. For instance, Rayse is portrayed as false god (he even looks like the stereotypical depiction of God in western society) who tempts people into sin, just like the Devil, and Moash is very explicitly the anti-Kaladin. 

3 hours ago, Returned said:

I'll agree that alleging bad faith is a valid claim when someone thinks it's true, but I do not agree that my post was made in bad faith.

While I had issues with your critique, I never said that it was in bad faith. I reserved that judgement for @First of the Tide's post, because it was unnecessarily aggressive, which made it come off as trolling, rather than a genuine contribution to the discussion.

[Nitpicking]

On 12/18/2025 at 9:44 AM, CoderDrag0n8 said:

Kelsier is

1. Killed by ruler of the major world power at the time

2. In front of everyone

3. Is rumored to have come back from the dead

4. Starts a major religous movement that becomes the main religon incredibly fast

5. Followers wear a necklace with his symbol

I just dont see Kaladin gaining as major a following as we see kelsier.

1B. Killed by the ruler using a spear to the torso.

[bmcclure7]

On 12/18/2025 at 12:40 AM, Schizoposting said:

1. He's the son of god (Tanavast).
2. He has supernatural powers.
3. He (metaphorically) dies and is reborn multiple times, but most notably, the scene where he's strung up before the highstorm is analogous to crucifixion 
4. He dedicates his life to the spiritually pure purposes of healing and protecting the weak and needy.
5. He's an extremely effective, charismatic leader
6. He has a large and growing cult following among the lower classes.
7. He is seen as a threat by the powers that be
8. He's tempted by the devil (Odium), and the antichrist (Vyre).
9. At the end of WAT, he becomes a demigod and ascends directly to heaven (spiritual Alaswha).
10. Finally, in the back half, he will descend from the heavens to free Roshar from the beasts' tyranny in the final battle.
Am I missing something, or is Kaladin basically just Jesus?

 

Jesus was certainly a inspiration much like with another cosmere character it wouldn’t surprise me if in back half we see a newer religious group, claiming that Kal will come back from the dead to save everyone

On 12/18/2025 at 8:44 AM, CoderDrag0n8 said:

Kelsier is

1. Killed by ruler of the major world power at the time

2. In front of everyone

3. Is rumored to have come back from the dead

4. Starts a major religous movement that becomes the main religon incredibly fast

5. Followers wear a necklace with his symbol

I just dont see Kaladin gaining as major a following as we see kelsier.

I think you’re forgetting that he’s now a Harold now they are worshiped as gods or Demi godsby most of there world’s religions the minute that becomes widely known he’s going to have at least a large a following as kelsier 

On 12/18/2025 at 2:15 PM, First of the Tide said:

Is Yumi literally Jesus?

  Hide contents

1. She's made of god.
2. She has supernatural powers.
3. She (metaphorically) dies and is reborn multiple times, over and over again, every day
4. She dedicates her life to the spiritually pure purposes ofproviding help to the weak and needy.
5. She's an extremely effective miracle worker
6. She has a large and growing cult following among the lower classes.
7. She is seen as a threat by the powers that be (The Machine)
8. She's tempted by the devil (The machine).
9. At the end of YatNP, she rises up to heaven, and then is called back down(analogous to jesus's resurrection).
10. Finally, in future books, she will beat the bad guy.
Am I missing something, or is Yumi basically just Jesus?

Are spores Jesus?

  Reveal hidden contents

1. Made of the most powerful thing(investiture).
2. Give supernatural powers.
3. Dies(is used up), and is reborn (falls from aethers) lots of times
4. Dedicates his life to doing what a higher power demands of it.
5. Anyone who comes into contact with them for a long time becomes utterly dedicated
6. might literally be able to turn water into wine
7. Is seen as a threat by the powers that be
8. He's tempted by the devil (The sorceress), and the antichrist (Xisis), but ultimately stays true to the "good one"(Tress).
9. descends from the heavens(moons).
10. Finally, in later books, it will descend from the heavens to free somebody from somebody's tyranny in the final battle.
Am I missing something, or is Kaladin basically just Jesus?

I have some more for vivenna, Jasnah, and 3/4 for moash. also have some for non-cosmere fantasy characters.

Literally any fantasy character fits at least a good portion of these, as well as other christ-like qualities. You're not really making very significant connections imo, just pointing out a quirk of the genre as a whole?

An unfair comparison she never never performed miracles. Neither she made from a God. 

[Returned he/him]

18 hours ago, Schizoposting said:

Could you elaborate? I'll admit that 1 is a bit more speculative, and 10 is a prediction for the back half (albeit one that's very likely), but the others I think are very much sound. For instance, Rayse is portrayed as false god (he even looks like the stereotypical depiction of God in western society) who tempts people into sin, just like the Devil, and Moash is very explicitly the anti-Kaladin. 

Sure:

1. He's the son of god (Tanavast).

This one might work thematically (WoBs aside), but I think there is a pretty sharp divide between the literal and overtly stated child of the creator of everything versus a common lineage between Kaladin and some guy who picked up 1/16 of divinity and then struggled against the very nature of that divinity, and directly in opposition to another 1/16 of that same divinity. The actual Kaladin/Tanavast relationship is a lot more like a friend's friend's fourth cousin twenty times removed than parent/child. I think of it as coincidental more than anything else, while the the Jesus situation is direct and purposeful. Every person on Roshar is similarly related to Tanavast (almost every human in the Cosmere is, except Scadrians) and Kaladin is not special in that regard.

I think that this item would be stronger if it were framed as the child of Honor, but still would be a soft similarity.

2. He has supernatural powers.

There are some interesting angles on this one with regard to how we consider the magic in the Cosmere (is it divine, supernatural, or just natural?), but those are outside the scope of this specific post. The powers themselves seem opposite to each other in important ways. The supernatural things Jesus showed were primarily signs and not so much practical solutions to problems. Consider the loaves and fishes: it directly fed people at a private event, but it isn't something that Jesus did generally (to end hunger or for any other reason). The miracles were often to show that there was something big and important going on (very broad brush, I know). Kaladin's powers are a consequence of other things happening and are almost exclusively direct solutions to specific problems, and he uses them casually and all the time.

But more broadly, this item applies to a massive portion of fantasy novels and is too common for me to think of it as a strong, meaningful similarity between two specific individuals. Every Radiant has supernatural powers like Kaladin's, some greater.

3. He (metaphorically) dies and is reborn multiple times, but most notably, the scene where he's strung up before the highstorm is analogous to crucifixion

Too thin for me to sign on to. The "metaphorically" piece undercuts the comparison fatally, as the Jesus story is about literal death (which is itself meaningful) and resurrection (which is also meaningful). Kaladin magically endures damage which would be fatal to a normal person and never actually dies. Kaladin is self-sacrificing enough that I think he definitely would do the full bit, if necessary. Otherwise I agree that being strung up in the Highstorm is very similar to the Crucifixion, but without the same import and effect it is more of a thematic similarity. And, as the WoB posted above suggests, not an intentional reference.

8. He's tempted by the devil (Odium), and the antichrist (Vyre).

I feel it's a stretch to call Odium the devil, given the absolute-hard-binary of God vs. Satan. The moral and philosophical alignment of the Shards doesn't mesh well with the Abrahamic frame to begin with. I also don't recall anything Odium does to tempt Kaladin in a manner similar to Jesus in the desert, but maybe I'm just not recalling the event or thinking of it in the right way. I also don't recall the antichrist actually appearing in the Bible at all, outside of mentions of its predicted presence in Revelations, and similarly no instances of tempting anyone (but I may not be recalling that correctly either). I could see his openness to Moash's perspective in Words of Radiance as fitting this item reasonably well, though I still think that the contexts are different enough that it's not fair to lump them together. And, like some of the other items, being tempted by others is very common to fiction.

I also think it's too much to pigeonhole Odium as the devil-- it's every bit as divine and just as much a component of Adonalsium as Honor or any of the other Shards. The God/Satan divide is more about free will being used to turn against everything that is good and right, not just a really bad dude. The Honor/Odium relationship is two equal pieces of divinity with very different fundamental properties and fourteen similarly situated siblings. I appreciate why many people associate Odium with Satan but I personally do not think that the comparison is a very strong one.

9. At the end of WAT, he becomes a demigod and ascends directly to heaven (spiritual Alaswha).

I'm not confident that this is a fair description of either. Ascending to heaven both God and as an aspect of God, which he always was, to rule and oversee everything in existence, seems very different to me than becoming one of ten immortal ghosts and going to a (hopefully) stable and peaceful, non-heaven place temporarily in order to heal the minds of those ten.

10. Finally, in the back half, he will descend from the heavens to free Roshar from the beasts' tyranny in the final battle.

This is all speculative and not something prophesied by anyone in-text, and there is at least some reason to believe that Kaladin will return (when he does) in a similar mode to how the Heralds have always done it: contributing with others against an incredibly difficult struggle rather than personally changing the nature of the world just by the act of returning.

Items 4-7 on the list I might quibble with, mostly about finer details and commonness in stories, but none enough so to warrant their own section.

If you're looking for more similarities I think that a good one is that Kaladin was anointed by Wind long before anything beyond the mundane happened to him.

18 hours ago, Schizoposting said:

While I had issues with your critique, I never said that it was in bad faith. I reserved that judgement for @First of the Tide's post, because it was unnecessarily aggressive, which made it come off as trolling, rather than a genuine contribution to the discussion.

I was responding more to First in that one. Forums like this one sometimes make it hard to disentangle things.

Edited December 20, 2025 by Returned

[Schizoposting]

1 hour ago, Returned said:

Sure:

1. He's the son of god (Tanavast).

This one might work thematically (WoBs aside), but I think there is a pretty sharp divide between the literal and overtly stated child of the creator of everything versus a common lineage between Kaladin and some guy who picked up 1/16 of divinity and then struggled against the very nature of that divinity, and directly in opposition to another 1/16 of that same divinity. The actual Kaladin/Tanavast relationship is a lot more like a friend's friend's fourth cousin twenty times removed than parent/child. I think of it as coincidental more than anything else, while the the Jesus situation is direct and purposeful. Every person on Roshar is similarly related to Tanavast (almost every human in the Cosmere is, except Scadrians) and Kaladin is not special in that regard.

I think that this item would be stronger if it were framed as the child of Honor, but still would be a soft similarity.

2. He has supernatural powers.

There are some interesting angles on this one with regard to how we consider the magic in the Cosmere (is it divine, supernatural, or just natural?), but those are outside the scope of this specific post. The powers themselves seem opposite to each other in important ways. The supernatural things Jesus showed were primarily signs and not so much practical solutions to problems. Consider the loaves and fishes: it directly fed people at a private event, but it isn't something that Jesus did generally (to end hunger or for any other reason). The miracles were often to show that there was something big and important going on (very broad brush, I know). Kaladin's powers are a consequence of other things happening and are almost exclusively direct solutions to specific problems, and he uses them casually and all the time.

But more broadly, this item applies to a massive portion of fantasy novels and is too common for me to think of it as a strong, meaningful similarity between two specific individuals. Every Radiant has supernatural powers like Kaladin's, some greater.

3. He (metaphorically) dies and is reborn multiple times, but most notably, the scene where he's strung up before the highstorm is analogous to crucifixion

Too thin for me to sign on to. The "metaphorically" piece undercuts the comparison fatally, as the Jesus story is about literal death (which is itself meaningful) and resurrection (which is also meaningful). Kaladin magically endures damage which would be fatal to a normal person and never actually dies. Kaladin is self-sacrificing enough that I think he definitely would do the full bit, if necessary. Otherwise I agree that being strung up in the Highstorm is very similar to the Crucifixion, but without the same import and effect it is more of a thematic similarity. And, as the WoB posted above suggests, not an intentional reference.

8. He's tempted by the devil (Odium), and the antichrist (Vyre).

I feel it's a stretch to call Odium the devil, given the absolute-hard-binary of God vs. Satan. The moral and philosophical alignment of the Shards doesn't mesh well with the Abrahamic frame to begin with. I also don't recall anything Odium does to tempt Kaladin in a manner similar to Jesus in the desert, but maybe I'm just not recalling the event or thinking of it in the right way. I also don't recall the antichrist actually appearing in the Bible at all, outside of mentions of its predicted presence in Revelations, and similarly no instances of tempting anyone (but I may not be recalling that correctly either). I could see his openness to Moash's perspective in Words of Radiance as fitting this item reasonably well, though I still think that the contexts are different enough that it's not fair to lump them together. And, like some of the other items, being tempted by others is very common to fiction.

I also think it's too much to pigeonhole Odium as the devil-- it's every bit as divine and just as much a component of Adonalsium as Honor or any of the other Shards. The God/Satan divide is more about free will being used to turn against everything that is good and right, not just a really bad dude. The Honor/Odium relationship is two equal pieces of divinity with very different fundamental properties and fourteen similarly situated siblings. I appreciate why many people associate Odium with Satan but I personally do not think that the comparison is a very strong one.

9. At the end of WAT, he becomes a demigod and ascends directly to heaven (spiritual Alaswha).

I'm not confident that this is a fair description of either. Ascending to heaven both God and as an aspect of God, which he always was, to rule and oversee everything in existence, seems very different to me than becoming one of ten immortal ghosts and going to a (hopefully) stable and peaceful, non-heaven place temporarily in order to heal the minds of those ten.

10. Finally, in the back half, he will descend from the heavens to free Roshar from the beasts' tyranny in the final battle.

This is all speculative and not something prophesied by anyone in-text, and there is at least some reason to believe that Kaladin will return (when he does) in a similar mode to how the Heralds have always done it: contributing with others against an incredibly difficult struggle rather than personally changing the nature of the world just by the act of returning.

Items 4-7 on the list I might quibble with, mostly about finer details and commonness in stories, but none enough so to warrant their own section.

If you're looking for more similarities I think that a good one is that Kaladin was anointed by Wind long before anything beyond the mundane happened to him.

I was responding more to First in that one. Forums like this one sometimes make it hard to disentangle things.

I think that you are looking at it from the perspective of the Cosmere as a whole, while I'm looking at it from the perspective of the Stormlight Archive, if that makes any sense. Sure, Odium and Honor are just one of sixteen pieces of divinity, but in the SA we are only really dealing with the three shards that are on Roshar, so the others don't matter. Vorinism, is heavily influenced by Christianity, for instance, even though the Almighty isn't actually almighty. And on a thematic and religious level, Ashyn represents Eden, while Braize represents hell. It's also important to keep in mind that Brandon Sanderson is a Mormon, and Mormonism differs substantially from mainstream Christianity in certain respects, such as in denying the holy trinity, or believing in the existence of other gods. 

[Returned he/him]

I think I get what you're saying. Given how the Cosmere books are structured and related I'm going to be a hard sell on ignoring the other books, but I think that's a more tangential point. Even looking at SA in isolation doesn't resolve these issues for me. For example, Honor, Cultivation, and Odium don't have different properties in those books than other Shards in those books or others, they are each one of many in SA. Even within SA alone the Shards don't really conform to the figures you present very well as far as I can tell. And the themes and events of the SA books don't divide very neatly into good/evil, virtue/vice, righteousness/sin, and similar, much to the frustration of many readers.

Putting Honor and/or Cultivation in the role of a Christianist God seems like a big reach; aside from being "bad" I think that the Odium-as-the-devil idea is not very strong (though common!). I think (generally, not just in the context of this thread) that a lot of people read a role like "the devil" (or more generally, archetypal representations of complete evil) into fantasy stories, and if you are trying to assign someone to that role in SA Odium is probably the best fit. But "best" in the same sense as "least bad"-- it's a top-down evaluation (some character in the story must fit this role, and we choose this one as the best fit) rather than bottom-up (this character is very like the devil in these various ways, enough so that we can think of them similarly). Even the fact that there are three Shards on Roshar causes some problems for an asserted allegory to God and Satan, or Christianity overall.

I'm not convinced that Vorinism is meant to be a representation of nor modeled on Christianity of any variety-- the differences are stark and many, and similarities seem few to me. It's hard to evaluate something like "heavily influenced by" in this context, though I'm not saying that isn't true. I find Vorinism to be a very poor representation of any Christian Church or theology I'm familiar with (which is admittedly a very small fraction of them). I'm also not sure the mainstream/other Christianity piece applies. Most importantly, Sanderson has explicitly said that Kaladin and SA are not allegories for Jesus and Christianity and so I'm not certain it matters which particular version of Jesus and Christianity they are not allegories for.

When we get back to talking about thematic similarities then we're right back to what I said previously: I think that Kaladin follows the savior archetype, tropes, and themes because he's a savior character, and shares those things with other savior characters because that's how archetypes and tropes are defined. I do not think he's meant to imitate a specific savior character and hits the archetype, tropes, and themes in a way ancillary to that goal.

So I'm still not persuaded that the two characters are very similar. They both hit the points of the savior archetype and associated tropes for sure, and there is a ton of overlap between them in those pieces. Outside of the archetype and tropes, though, I think that the characters are very different from each other, much more so than they are similar. So for me the similarities are mostly (if not entirely) localized and do not extend beyond narrative roles into specifics. I might be mistaking your position but it still reads to me like an invalid syllogism: Kaladin -> savior character, Jesus -> savior character, therefore Kaladin = Jesus. That third component does not follow from the first two but is the conclusion I read you as advancing. Many of the items in the list from the OP seem to me to work only if we already assume that conclusion to be true, though again I could probably be convinced on at least some of them.

But at present I remain unconvinced. Though I'm still unsure how to best frame an answer to the question of the thread, I'll hesitantly try restating: they are very different characters and each independently is related to a common archetype, but not directly to each other or each others' settings and context.

Edited December 20, 2025 by Returned

[First of the Tide He/him]

12 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

An unfair comparison she never never performed miracles. Neither she made from a God. 

She was made from the pure investiture of splintered virtuosity, as were all of the nightmares/yumi's-side characters.

literally her profession is defined as girl of commanding primal spirits how is that not miracles

she makes little balls of light into magic super fabrials how is that less impressive than turning water into wine?

[Schizoposting]

Well, I think we should keep in mind that as a postmodern fantasy, the Stormlight Archive plays with various fantasy tropes and genre conventions. Like the Voidbringer's were initially portrayed as these demonic entities that want to destroy everything out of pure hatred, when in reality, 99% of Singers are just trying to live their lives. Likewise, Odium was initially portrayed as a Dark Lord/Devil archetype, but ROW and WAT subvert this by showing that far from being diametrically opposed, Honor and Odium actually attract. So yes, Brandon does subvert a lot of these tropes, but in order to subvert something, you first have to build it up. Even if the savior trope (as you call it) ends up being subverted, it doesn't negate the fact that this trope was used in the first place.  

25 minutes ago, First of the Tide said:

She was made from the pure investiture of splintered virtuosity, as were all of the nightmares/yumi's-side characters.

literally her profession is defined as girl of commanding primal spirits how is that not miracles

she makes little balls of light into magic super fabrials how is that less impressive than turning water into wine?

The problem here is the schematic way in which you're trying to go about proving that Yumi is a Christ figure: literary analysis is not done by matching a text to an arbitrary checklist. Now, I'll admit that I'm somewhat guilty of this myself, in presenting my argument the way I did, but I did this out sheer laziness, not because I thought that this was the right way to present my argument.

Edited December 20, 2025 by Schizoposting

[bmcclure7]

2 hours ago, First of the Tide said:

She was made from the pure investiture of splintered virtuosity, as were all of the nightmares/yumi's-side characters.

literally her profession is defined as girl of commanding primal spirits how is that not miracles

she makes little balls of light into magic super fabrials how is that less impressive than turning water into wine?

Doesn’t command anything she tempts them and then makes a contract. She’s not even the one that forms the contract. The people do . All she actually does is stake rocks. 

Second, no she’s not a splinter of anything (she is just a construct created from a lot of dead souls) and even if she was, I don’t see the connection to Christ . 
 

 

Edited December 21, 2025 by bmcclure7

[bmcclure7]

4 hours ago, Returned said:

I think I get what you're saying. Given how the Cosmere books are structured and related I'm going to be a hard sell on ignoring the other books, but I think that's a more tangential point. Even looking at SA in isolation doesn't resolve these issues for me. For example, Honor, Cultivation, and Odium don't have different properties in those books than other Shards in those books or others, they are each one of many in SA. Even within SA alone the Shards don't really conform to the figures you present very well as far as I can tell. And the themes and events of the SA books don't divide very neatly into good/evil, virtue/vice, righteousness/sin, and similar, much to the frustration of many readers.

Putting Honor and/or Cultivation in the role of a Christianist God seems like a big reach; aside from being "bad" I think that the Odium-as-the-devil idea is not very strong (though common!). I think (generally, not just in the context of this thread) that a lot of people read a role like "the devil" (or more generally, archetypal representations of complete evil) into fantasy stories, and if you are trying to assign someone to that role in SA Odium is probably the best fit. But "best" in the same sense as "least bad"-- it's a top-down evaluation (some character in the story must fit this role, and we choose this one as the best fit) rather than bottom-up (this character is very like the devil in these various ways, enough so that we can think of them similarly). Even the fact that there are three Shards on Roshar causes some problems for an asserted allegory to God and Satan, or Christianity overall.

I'm not convinced that Vorinism is meant to be a representation of nor modeled on Christianity of any variety-- the differences are stark and many, and similarities seem few to me. It's hard to evaluate something like "heavily influenced by" in this context, though I'm not saying that isn't true. I find Vorinism to be a very poor representation of any Christian Church or theology I'm familiar with (which is admittedly a very small fraction of them). I'm also not sure the mainstream/other Christianity piece applies. Most importantly, Sanderson has explicitly said that Kaladin and SA are not allegories for Jesus and Christianity and so I'm not certain it matters which particular version of Jesus and Christianity they are not allegories for.

When we get back to talking about thematic similarities then we're right back to what I said previously: I think that Kaladin follows the savior archetype, tropes, and themes because he's a savior character, and shares those things with other savior characters because that's how archetypes and tropes are defined. I do not think he's meant to imitate a specific savior character and hits the archetype, tropes, and themes in a way ancillary to that goal.

So I'm still not persuaded that the two characters are very similar. They both hit the points of the savior archetype and associated tropes for sure, and there is a ton of overlap between them in those pieces. Outside of the archetype and tropes, though, I think that the characters are very different from each other, much more so than they are similar. So for me the similarities are mostly (if not entirely) localized and do not extend beyond narrative roles into specifics. I might be mistaking your position but it still reads to me like an invalid syllogism: Kaladin -> savior character, Jesus -> savior character, therefore Kaladin = Jesus. That third component does not follow from the first two but is the conclusion I read you as advancing. Many of the items in the list from the OP seem to me to work only if we already assume that conclusion to be true, though again I could probably be convinced on at least some of them.

But at present I remain unconvinced. Though I'm still unsure how to best frame an answer to the question of the thread, I'll hesitantly try restating: they are very different characters and each independently is related to a common archetype, but not directly to each other or each others' settings and context.

“Vorinism to be a very poor representation of any Christian Church“

 

yes but if you look at what ignorant non Christian think the church is (mainly based on media and half heard sermons) instead of what it actually is they are actually very similar 

[ChipsAHoid He/Him]

On 12/18/2025 at 1:40 AM, Schizoposting said:

6. He has a large and growing cult following among the lower classes.

…I don’t know that I’d call Christianity a cult following among the lower classes

2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

“Vorinism to be a very poor representation of any Christian Church“

 

yes but if you look at what ignorant non Christian think the church is (mainly based on media and half heard sermons) instead of what it actually is they are actually very similar 

Also friendly reminder no double posting 

[Schizoposting]

1 hour ago, ChipsAHoid said:

On 12/18/2025 at 1:40 AM, Schizoposting said:

6. He has a large and growing cult following among the lower classes.

…I don’t know that I’d call Christianity a cult following among the lower classes

Are you familiar with the early history of Christianity? Before it became state religion, and adopted by the ruling classes, it was heavily persecuted (the Anti-Christ was originally intended to be a Roman Emperor—probably Nero), with there being major Jewish uprisings against the Roman empire. Jesus himself was crucified for threatening the social order.

[ChipsAHoid He/Him]

33 minutes ago, Schizoposting said:

Are you familiar with the early history of Christianity? Before it became state religion, and adopted by the ruling classes, it was heavily persecuted (the Anti-Christ was originally intended to be a Roman Emperor—probably Nero), with there being major Jewish uprisings against the Roman empire. Jesus himself was crucified for threatening the social order.

…I don’t see how heavy persecution is relevant to whether or not it’s a cult (might just be missing smth tho)

Also rebelling against Rome is frankly a commonplace for a lot of groups they were occupying

Also, not trying to diss on you, ik ur talking a lot of flak rn and I do agree that there are some parallels I just don’t agree with being labeled as a cult

Edited December 21, 2025 by ChipsAHoid

[Schizoposting]

10 minutes ago, ChipsAHoid said:

…I don’t see how heavy persecution is relevant to whether or not it’s a cult (might just be missing smth tho)

Also rebelling against Rome is frankly a commonplace for a lot of groups they were occupying

Also, not trying to diss on you, ik ur talking a lot of flak rn and I do agree that there are some parallels I just don’t agree with being labeled as a cult

I am using the word "cult" in the following (non-pejorative sense):

Quote

1. (religion) The veneration, devotion and religious rites given to a deity (especially in a historical polytheistic context), or (in a Christian context) to a saint; a subset of worship. 

   imperial cult

   the cult of Mary

 

[bmcclure7]

5 hours ago, ChipsAHoid said:

…I don’t know that I’d call Christianity a cult following among the lower classes

Also friendly reminder no double posting 

My bad sorry. 
 

2 hours ago, ChipsAHoid said:

…I don’t see how heavy persecution is relevant to whether or not it’s a cult (might just be missing smth tho)

Also rebelling against Rome is frankly a commonplace for a lot of groups they were occupying

Also, not trying to diss on you, ik ur talking a lot of flak rn and I do agree that there are some parallels I just don’t agree with being labeled as a cult

It’s not just that it says she has no followers worshipers sure but nothing that could be compared to the apostles for example. Kel has his crew and Kal has bridge 4 people to carry on his legacy between his death and resurrection. She doesn’t really have that. honestly, it’s the resurrection part, the God part, and the small group of followers that really make Kal and Kel feel like Jesus. 
 

She doesn’t have any of that. She’s never once considered a God or tryes to portray herself as a God, she has no followers, she immediately has resurrected so she has at least one of three, but it’s not enough

[ChipsAHoid He/Him]

6 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

My bad sorry. 

Oh ur fine I think we’ve all done it a handful of times

8 hours ago, Schizoposting said:

I am using the word "cult" in the following (non-pejorative sense):

 

Oh lol ok that I’d believe I thought you were like “rahhhh early Christianity = blood for the blood god sacrifice children rahhh”

Ah denotation vs connotation 

Bane of my existence

I was only aware of the 1st of these but nonetheless, clearing up your definition of it actually fixes any other problems I have with it

Spoiler

[Schizoposting]

3 hours ago, ChipsAHoid said:

Oh ur fine I think we’ve all done it a handful of times

Oh lol ok that I’d believe I thought you were like “rahhhh early Christianity = blood for the blood god sacrifice children rahhh”

Ah denotation vs connotation 

Bane of my existence

I was only aware of the 1st of these but nonetheless, clearing up your definition of it actually fixes any other problems I have with it

  Reveal hidden contents

No worries.

[Returned he/him]

23 hours ago, Schizoposting said:

Well, I think we should keep in mind that as a postmodern fantasy, the Stormlight Archive plays with various fantasy tropes and genre conventions. Like the Voidbringer's were initially portrayed as these demonic entities that want to destroy everything out of pure hatred, when in reality, 99% of Singers are just trying to live their lives. Likewise, Odium was initially portrayed as a Dark Lord/Devil archetype, but ROW and WAT subvert this by showing that far from being diametrically opposed, Honor and Odium actually attract. So yes, Brandon does subvert a lot of these tropes, but in order to subvert something, you first have to build it up. Even if the savior trope (as you call it) ends up being subverted, it doesn't negate the fact that this trope was used in the first place.  

I won't dispute that here, as far as it goes (I'm unsure of how well responses might fit the scope of the thread). But my position isn't related to trope subversion or normal use, it's that the tropes are essentially the only ways that Kaladin and Jesus overlap. The rest of what they do, how and why they do it, and the contexts in which they determined and committed to their courses of action are really different from each other. Like, if you were to swap the two at age 5 I think that the stories would play out very, very differently even while both would still do things that satisfy the savior archetype and tropes.

I'm not looking to convince you or anyone away from the position in the OP (that the two characters are very, very similar). My points are meant only to explain why I don't think that they are very similar and highlight the specific ways in which I think they are similar, with some commentary on the initial arguments presented. My position on the initial list is that many of the items only support the two being very similar if we already assume that they are-- for example, saying that there is a devil character in both stories and that Odium is that character, but not really because the story ultimately doesn't retain or use the archetype for that character and the role ultimately isn't represented. I think that it's at least as reasonable to suggest that, whatever archetypes and narrative roles exist in SA, the devil (in the same sense as that personage is used in the Bible) is not among them. If a devil role is asserted to be in SA only because a particular conclusion requires that such a role be there then that assertion is just begging the question and is not evidence of that conclusion. Other reasons for suggesting the archetype is present (and therefore can lend support to the conclusion) are fine, obviously, but they need their own explication and argumentation, as any argument does.

If we're mostly discussing things within the frame of narrative roles, archetypes, and tropes, I think that we're talking about what is already common ground: I think we've both said that the characters are similar in those ways. The portion of the discussion that remains seems like it would address characteristics outside of where we already agree, namely the degree to which the two characters are similar beyond the archetypes and tropes. I maintain that they are not very similar, outside of the savior archetype roles they have, though am interested in arguments that they are substantially more similar than that. If people aren't interested in discussing those items, at all or with me in particular, of course that's fine.

Edited December 21, 2025 by Returned

[Immortal Platypus]

On 12/20/2025 at 11:54 AM, Schizoposting said:

I think that you are looking at it from the perspective of the Cosmere as a whole, while I'm looking at it from the perspective of the Stormlight Archive, if that makes any sense. Sure, Odium and Honor are just one of sixteen pieces of divinity, but in the SA we are only really dealing with the three shards that are on Roshar, so the others don't matter. Vorinism, is heavily influenced by Christianity, for instance, even though the Almighty isn't actually almighty. And on a thematic and religious level, Ashyn represents Eden, while Braize represents hell. It's also important to keep in mind that Brandon Sanderson is a Mormon, and Mormonism differs substantially from mainstream Christianity in certain respects, such as in denying the holy trinity, or believing in the existence of other gods. 

For the record, like Brandon, I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and nothing @Returned said in his post clarifying his position about your reasons 1-3 and 8-10 violates our doctrine, and I couldn't find anything major in there that we disagree on from other Christian religions. Also for the record, we don't deny the trinity, we disagree with the way other churches conceptualize it, and while we believe that there can be other gods, we only worship one and believing you could become a god wasn't something that was just invented by our church, the idea dates back to very early Christianity and traces from the Bible. For example, in 2 Peter 1:4 Paul teaches that Christ has given us "great and precious promises" and that we can "be partakers of the divine nature". He also teaches in Romans 8:17 that we are "joint-heirs with Christ". I could go on with biblical examples, but I'd like to share examples from early Church theologians. Irenaeus taught that Christ "did, through His transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be what He is Himself," and Clement of Alexandria wrote "the Word of God became man, that thou mayest learn from man how man may become God." again, there are more of these, but I'd prefer to not derail the thread, and I think this is plenty to prove my point.

23 hours ago, Schizoposting said:

Well, I think we should keep in mind that as a postmodern fantasy, the Stormlight Archive plays with various fantasy tropes and genre conventions. Like the Voidbringer's were initially portrayed as these demonic entities that want to destroy everything out of pure hatred, when in reality, 99% of Singers are just trying to live their lives. Likewise, Odium was initially portrayed as a Dark Lord/Devil archetype, but ROW and WAT subvert this by showing that far from being diametrically opposed, Honor and Odium actually attract. So yes, Brandon does subvert a lot of these tropes, but in order to subvert something, you first have to build it up. Even if the savior trope (as you call it) ends up being subverted, it doesn't negate the fact that this trope was used in the first place.  

The problem here is the schematic way in which you're trying to go about proving that Yumi is a Christ figure: literary analysis is not done by matching a text to an arbitrary checklist. Now, I'll admit that I'm somewhat guilty of this myself, in presenting my argument the way I did, but I did this out sheer laziness, not because I thought that this was the right way to present my argument.

Well, the Voidbringers and Singers are different, at least to me. Voidbringers are the Fused, the sometimes crazy ones, and several do seemingly want to destroy Roshar. Singers, however, are just the same as they were before. I don't think that's quite a fair comparison, but you are right about Brandon liking to subvert tropes.

21 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

“Vorinism to be a very poor representation of any Christian Church“

 

yes but if you look at what ignorant non Christian think the church is (mainly based on media and half heard sermons) instead of what it actually is they are actually very similar 

Brandon is not an ignorant non-Christian, so I'm not sure what this means.

13 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

She doesn’t have any of that. She’s never once considered a God or tryes to portray herself as a God, she has no followers, she immediately has resurrected so she has at least one of three, but it’s not enough

I think that's kind of the point. She obviously isn't God/Jesus, and the point is that Kaladin isn't either.

[Schizoposting]

1 hour ago, Returned said:

If we're mostly discussing things within the frame of narrative roles, archetypes, and tropes, I think that we're talking about what is already common ground: I think we've both said that the characters are similar in those ways. The portion of the discussion that remains seems like it would address characteristics outside of where we already agree, namely the degree to which the two characters are similar beyond the archetypes and tropes. I maintain that they are not very similar, outside of the savior archetype roles they have, though am interested in arguments that they are substantially more similar than that. If people aren't interested in discussing those items, at all or with me in particular, of course that's fine.

There's a continuum of to what extent a character is a Christ figure: on one end you have someone like Gandalf, who has some vague similarities with Jesus; on the other end who have someone like Aslan who is just Jesus Christ in a different form; and in the middle, you have someone like Harry Potter or Luke Skywalker. On this spectrum I would say that Kaladin is closer to Aslan than to Gandalf. Sure, he never claims to be a god, or a messiah, but it won't stop people from venerating him, which already makes him a lot more similar to Jesus than most Christ figures. Aside from this (admittedly major) difference, Kaladin has a far greater similarity to Jesus compared to aforementioned Christ figures. Like aside from dying a resurrecting to defeat Voldemort, Harry Potter isn't like Jesus at all, while Kaladin is characterized by his universal love, which is what motivates him to protect even his enemies—the Singers. In addition, as I already mentioned, Odium tries to tempt Kaladin into becoming his champion in ROW, by promising to take his pain away. Which is a similarity with Jesus that is not possessed by Harry Potter (although Luke Skywalker is tempted by Palpatine), despite him also being a considered a Christ figure. So, to conclude, Kaladin, although not identical to Jesus, substantially more similar than other examples of the "savior archetype".

    

1 hour ago, Immortal Platypus said:

For the record, like Brandon, I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and nothing @Returned said in his post clarifying his position about your reasons 1-3 and 8-10 violates our doctrine, and I couldn't find anything major in there that we disagree on from other Christian religions. Also for the record, we don't deny the trinity, we disagree with the way other churches conceptualize it, and while we believe that there can be other gods, we only worship one and believing you could become a god wasn't something that was just invented by our church, the idea dates back to very early Christianity and traces from the Bible. For example, in 2 Peter 1:4 Paul teaches that Christ has given us "great and precious promises" and that we can "be partakers of the divine nature". He also teaches in Romans 8:17 that we are "joint-heirs with Christ". I could go on with biblical examples, but I'd like to share examples from early Church theologians. Irenaeus taught that Christ "did, through His transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be what He is Himself," and Clement of Alexandria wrote "the Word of God became man, that thou mayest learn from man how man may become God." again, there are more of these, but I'd prefer to not derail the thread, and I think this is plenty to prove my point.

Now, I am not an expert on the LDS religion, or a theologian—I am someone with some general knowledge on the subject—so I may be wrong, but my understanding is that most of your quotes are referring to joining God in heaven, not to becoming a god. At the very least, non-LDS theologians reject the idea that one may become God upon death. But the exact theological details are not really relevant to the discussion. What's important is that Kaladin has significant similarities to Jesus, as he's commonly understood. The current discussion is about to what extent Kaladin is similar to Jesus.

1 hour ago, Immortal Platypus said:

On 12/20/2025 at 5:24 PM, Schizoposting said:

Well, I think we should keep in mind that as a postmodern fantasy, the Stormlight Archive plays with various fantasy tropes and genre conventions. Like the Voidbringer's were initially portrayed as these demonic entities that want to destroy everything out of pure hatred, when in reality, 99% of Singers are just trying to live their lives. Likewise, Odium was initially portrayed as a Dark Lord/Devil archetype, but ROW and WAT subvert this by showing that far from being diametrically opposed, Honor and Odium actually attract. So yes, Brandon does subvert a lot of these tropes, but in order to subvert something, you first have to build it up. Even if the savior trope (as you call it) ends up being subverted, it doesn't negate the fact that this trope was used in the first place.  

Well, the Voidbringers and Singers are different, at least to me. Voidbringers are the Fused, the sometimes crazy ones, and several do seemingly want to destroy Roshar. Singers, however, are just the same as they were before. I don't think that's quite a fair comparison, but you are right about Brandon liking to subvert tropes.

A big reveal at the end of WOK was "the Parshendi are the Voidbringers". Now, later, we learn they are not necessarily the same thing, but at first, they were the same to our knowledge.

1 hour ago, Immortal Platypus said:

15 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

She doesn’t have any of that. She’s never once considered a God or tryes to portray herself as a God, she has no followers, she immediately has resurrected so she has at least one of three, but it’s not enough

I think that's kind of the point. She obviously isn't God/Jesus, and the point is that Kaladin isn't either.

Obviously Yumi is not Jesus, but that has absolutely no relation to whether or not Kaladin is Jesus. The person who originally made that argument was just engaging in fallacious reasoning.

Edited December 21, 2025 by Schizoposting

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

I find the premise of this thread offensive for multiple reasons.  That's all I intend to say about this.

[Schizoposting]

43 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

I find the premise of this thread offensive for multiple reasons.  That's all I intend to say about this.

I meant no offense with the topic; I sincerely apologize if this has offended you.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

33 minutes ago, Schizoposting said:

I meant no offense with the topic; I sincerely apologize if this has offended you.

Apology sincerely accepted.  Peace on Earth, good will to men. 

[Immortal Platypus]

3 hours ago, Schizoposting said:

Now, I am not an expert on the LDS religion, or a theologian—I am someone with some general knowledge on the subject—so I may be wrong, but my understanding is that most of your quotes are referring to joining God in heaven, not to becoming a god. At the very least, non-LDS theologians reject the idea that one may become God upon death. But the exact theological details are not really relevant to the discussion. What's important is that Kaladin has significant similarities to Jesus, as he's commonly understood. The current discussion is about to what extent Kaladin is similar to Jesus.

That is how most people interpret them, but not everyone. 

Quote

A big reveal at the end of WOK was "the Parshendi are the Voidbringers". Now, later, we learn they are not necessarily the same thing, but at first, they were the same to our knowledge.

yes, and so because we now have updated knowledge we need rely on the outdated knowledge no longer.

Quote

Obviously Yumi is not Jesus, but that has absolutely no relation to whether or not Kaladin is Jesus. The person who originally made that argument was just engaging in fallacious reasoning.

they were showing that it's easy to put some characteristics similar to Jesus and map them to a lot of characters, in this case, kaladin. I don't understand why you say they had fallacious reasoning.