Elhokar is alive! Prove me wrong!

[JustAnotherDarkEyes]

Ok, maybe this is a bit far fetched but I’d love to know if anyone else suspected this while reading Wind and Truth:

In the middle of the book I had the sudden suspicion that Sanderson was foreshadowing Elhokar’s return - that he in fact was not dead, was not actually killed at the battle for Kholinar, and is actually a Lightweaver. Here are my reasons:

- the Storm Father said that Elhokar was “seeing Cryptics” during the time that he was at the height of suspicion that assassins were after him in book 1. This is exactly what happened to Shallan shortly before she started to manifest her lightweaver powers 

- Elhokar spoke truths - giving his cryptic Spren the words needed to advance his powers- think back to when Kaladin almost lost Syl as an accomplice to Moash’s plan to kill Elhokar. During that time, Elhokar sent for Kaladin and told him honestly the truth that he was wrong to send Kal to jail and that he was jealous of him. If this was truly one of the times Elhokar had spoken truths then that puts him at least at the first ideal before he even went on the mission to Kholinar with Shallan and Adolin 

- he’s a very good actor and completely unphased when he had to become another person during the infiltration of Kholinar: when Shallan tells him she is going to light weave Elhokar to look like a woman so they can infiltrate the city, he doesn’t bat an eye to Shallan’s surprise. And he turns out to be very convincing- almost like he’s done this before perhaps??

- he’s a good drawer - during the infiltration of Kholinar, Elhokar draws a map of the city that even has Shallan impressed. It parallels what Shallan had to do in order to produce her initial light weaving 

- Elhokar was healing and growing as a king by the time of his “death” - same thing that happened to Shallan after she had spoken truths 

- everyone “saw” Moash kill Elhokar, but was it truly confirmed? They couldn’t bring his body back because Adolin, Shallan, and Kaladin were all transported into Shadesmar before they could truly know for certain whether he was dead or not- they couldn’t even retrieve his body same as they couldn’t rescue the troops they left behind at the battle for Kholinar- imagine if Elhokar had been using l lightweaving powers during the battle for Kholinar- first of all, he could’ve made it look like he had died and then simply healed himself with stormlight after!

- in Wind and Truth- Dalinar continues to think he can hear Elhokar or feel him through the bondsmith powers - while this suspicion is brushed off because Dalinar finds Gav in the spiritual realm, I don’t think that negates the idea that Elhokar was actually speaking to Gav and was still alive, somewhere.

- while Navani is witnessing her son’s death in Kholinar in a vision in the spiritual realm, she doesn’t actually see the death take place. One wonders what she would have seen if she had lingered longer on that vision after Adolin, Shallan, and Kaladin had been transported into Shadesmar. Elhokar also acts strangely in that vision- he hugs Navani and accepts her presence there so casually (which may just be the vision adapting but it begs the question of that maybe actually being Elhokar?) 

 - at the battle of champions between Dalinar and Odium, Odium says that Elhokar is inaccessible even for him. But he doesn’t say that Elhokar is dead! 

Just think about it! That key mentioning that he was seeing cryptics since the first book follows the same timeline as Shallan. There’s just too many parallels when presented with the idea that he was “seeing cryptics”. Elhokar could have been concealing light weaving abilities during the infiltration of Kholinar- which would fit his general suspicious personality of believing someone is always trying to assassinate him. He could’ve spoken multiple truths by the time he went on that mission and might have abilities that even surpassed Shallan’s or were at least comparable to hers. Imagine the implications of that! Elhokar could’ve secretly stayed in Kholinar - freed from the constant fear of being assassinated because everyone thought he was dead anyway- working to win back his kingdom from the inside out! Who knows what he has been able to accomplish living in secret all this time! 
Would love to hear thought on this!

[QuantumAce]

I do not like this, but maybe its just what happens when you cross the streams with Kholins and Lightweavers. 

[Master Silver]

I thought that Hoid rescued Elhokar's Cryptic which was stuck in the physical realm. The Cryptic was there to bond Elhokar but he died before he could speak the words. Moash made sure he was dead.

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, JustAnotherDarkEyes said:

Would love to hear thought on this!

WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

What happened to Elhokar's body?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It was burned with honors.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

Quote

Striker_EZ

What would the dynamic between Elhokar and Design have been like if Elhokar hadn’t been killed? I feel like Design is perfect for Hoid, but I’m not sure how it would go over with Elhokar.

Brandon Sanderson

She would've really liked Elhokar. I think they would have gotten along very well, and she would've been very good for him, and he would've been very good for her. Let's say that Design and Hoid are a different kind of pair, and they exacerbate certain features in the other that may not be the best for either of them. Not in any catastrophic way, but I imagine that she and Elhokar would've become both better people through their bond.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021)

Curiosity Spoilers:

Spoiler

Elhokar also dies in WoK Prime. 

 

 

Edited January 29, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Returned he/him]

1 hour ago, Master Silver said:

I thought that Hoid rescued Elhokar's Cryptic which was stuck in the physical realm. The Cryptic was there to bond Elhokar but he died before he could speak the words. Moash made sure he was dead.

This is the big item. While as far as I can recall it has not been explicitly confirmed that Design was intending to bond Elhokar but had to make do with Hoid it's strongly implied. If not, we have to answer whom it was that Design had intended to bond in Kholinar but was unable to, leaving Hoid as the only choice.

 

EDIT: Per @Treamayne's WoB posted, above, this was explicitly confirmed.

Edited January 29, 2025 by Returned

[Treamayne]

4 minutes ago, Returned said:

explicitly confirmed that Design was intending to bond Elhokar

Confirmed in the WoB above this post

[Nitpicking]

@JustAnotherDarkEyes, all your clues about Elhokar being about to become a Lightweaver are correct, but he didn't quite finish speaking the First Oath, and so, he died.

[elias888]

I like the theory, but I think Elhokar was a missed opportunity. He had the signs, the cryptic visions, the truths, but he never fully bonded with a spren. Once that moment passed, he was done. Hoid taking the Cryptic feels like confirmation. Maybe he's not entirely gone, but the idea of him being secretly alive feels too convenient.

[Kasimir he/him]

18 minutes ago, elias888 said:

I like the theory, but I think Elhokar was a missed opportunity. He had the signs, the cryptic visions, the truths, but he never fully bonded with a spren. Once that moment passed, he was done.

I would argue in fact that the missed opportunity element is what made the Elhokar loss so acute, and made people so fed-up with Moash, given that Kal's antagonism towards Elhokar in WoR is at least somewhat understandable to the reader.

[alder24]

On 1/29/2025 at 9:17 PM, JustAnotherDarkEyes said:

- everyone “saw” Moash kill Elhokar, but was it truly confirmed? They couldn’t bring his body back because Adolin, Shallan, and Kaladin were all transported into Shadesmar before they could truly know for certain whether he was dead or not- they couldn’t even retrieve his body same as they couldn’t rescue the troops they left behind at the battle for Kholinar- imagine if Elhokar had been using l lightweaving powers during the battle for Kholinar- first of all, he could’ve made it look like he had died and then simply healed himself with stormlight after!

Yes, he's dead dead. Moash held his spear in his head for long enough for Elhokar to run out of Stormlight and die, dropping his unbound Shardblade next to his body. Since then Fused and Singers held the palace and Hoid bonded with his Cryptic. Fused like Raboniel also confirmed that he's dead.

On 1/29/2025 at 9:17 PM, JustAnotherDarkEyes said:

I don’t think that negates the idea that Elhokar was actually speaking to Gav and was still alive, somewhere.

They were in the Spiritual Realm where remains of all Spirit Webs are present. Gavinor could Connect to the remains of his father and that could be the voices he was hearing, or that was Odium pretending to be his father. In the Spiritual Realm you can meet with dead people, but those aren't those people, those are just investiture using the Spirit Web corpses and taking the form of those people for you to interact with, just like what's happening with visions, but more real. 

Spoiler

Argent

Is death in the Cosmere a two-stage process? It seems to me like (under normal circumstances) the body dies first, sending the mind fully in the Cognitive Realm; the soul, presumably, remains in the Spiritual for the entire process. I am a little unclear on what happens after that though - what is it that passes into the Beyond, just the mind? Does the soul / spiritual aspect / Spiritweb just kind of... break down in the Spiritual Realm, turn into free iInvestiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. It's a two stage process, and most of what you said is correct. The odd thing is, though, that the Spiritweb doesn't completely break down (just like your body doesn't immediately break down.) Even after a long time, there's a record of that Spiritweb in the Spiritual Realm.

[...]

Stormlight Three Update #6 (Feb. 5, 2017)

Mistborn spoiler WoB:

Spoiler

Forger (paraphrased)

In Stormlight 5, we know they are looking for Ba-Ado-Mishram and some of it will take place in the Spiritual Realm, where we know that time is odd and somewhat condensed. Does that mean that we could have an interaction with Lopen and Wayne?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It could be possible. But it would be an imitation, like a puppet. That'd be a bad idea, crossing the streams like that.

Forger (paraphrased)

So the same with someone like Elend?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yeah, so the Spiritual Realm would be trying to create them. Making them what they should be, but it wouldn't be them. Like the visions. You could interact with them, but it wouldn't be them.

Forger (paraphrased)

So the SR is using raw investiture to create them?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yep.

Forger (paraphrased)

So since they are like the visions, could one replay them over and over?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They could.

FanX 2024 (Sept. 28, 2024)

 

He was a proto Radiant, he just started to develop his bond and had no skills yet. He couldn't have used Lightweaving to hide himself successfully and Fused would have discovered that his body is missing. And there are also those WoBs. Elhokar was always going to die:

Spoiler

Questioner

What was your motivation behind-- for killing Elhokar and simultaneously ripping my heart out?

Brandon Sanderson

So, it was-- I never feel like I'm killing characters, I'm letting characters take risks and I'm letting other characters have agency to do the things they're doing in the books. That whole plot cycle was more-- less me killing someone off and more me letting Moash go down the dark path that he have been demanding that he go down.

Questioner

Okay, but you realize half the fandom-- or the whole fandom practically wants him dead now.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, yes. Well, they should! He made a very, very bad decision, and he deserves everything that the fandom is throwing at him.

FanX Spring 2019 (April 19, 2019)

 

Spoiler

Striker_EZ

What would the dynamic between Elhokar and Design have been like if Elhokar hadn’t been killed? I feel like Design is perfect for Hoid, but I’m not sure how it would go over with Elhokar.

Brandon Sanderson

She would've really liked Elhokar. I think they would have gotten along very well, and she would've been very good for him, and he would've been very good for her. Let's say that Design and Hoid are a different kind of pair, and they exacerbate certain features in the other that may not be the best for either of them. Not in any catastrophic way, but I imagine that she and Elhokar would've become both better people through their bond.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021)

 

Spoiler

Zantis

Was Elhokar going to be a Windrunner squire or was he going to be a different Order?

Brandon Sanderson

He was actually going to be a Lightweaver.

Zantis

Interesting.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. And some interesting story with him because--here's a little tidbit for you... In the original draft that I wrote in 2002 I pushed him far enough that Dalinar had to kill him. It came to blows. And I never quite liked how that turned out, so in the 2010 version we had a different path for Elhokar. But he's been doomed from a long time ago, poor guy.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

 

 

[Master Silver]

For that last WoB, I can see how Elhokar was filled with despair in Words of Radiance. He has had a hit on him for over 20 years. Practically his whole life. Poor guy indeed! 

[Treamayne]

55 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

For that last WoB, I can see how Elhokar was filled with despair in Words of Radiance. He has had a hit on him for over 20 years. Practically his whole life. Poor guy indeed! 

I so wanted in WoR for Kaladin to give Elhokar a version of the Bernard speech from Codex Alera:

WoR Ch 80 / Princeps' Fury Ch 13 (paraphrased):

Spoiler

Quote

“How do people know what to do? Why don’t I know what to do? I was born to this office, given the throne by the Almighty himself! Why would he give me the title, but not the capacity? It defies reason. And yet, everyone seems to know things that I do not. My father could rule even the likes of Sadeas—men loved Gavilar, feared him, and served him all at once. I can’t even get a darkeyes to obey a command to come visit the palace! Why doesn’t this work? What do I have to do?”

Kaladin stepped back, shocked at the frankness. “Why are you asking me this, Your Majesty?”

“Because you know the secret,” the king said, still pacing. “I’ve seen how your men regard you; I’ve heard how people speak of you. You’re a hero, bridgeman.” He stopped, then walked up to Kaladin, taking him by the arms. “Can you teach me?”

Kaladin regarded him

Quote

"It isn’t complicated, your Majesty. It isn’t easy, but it isn’t complicated, either.”

"You care for your people, lighteyed and dark, more than yourself. You make decisions on what is best for them, not yourself. From there, everything else comes naturally.”

Elhokar may have had a chance then - to find Radiance before Kholinar. 

 

[MagicMaggot]

On 1/30/2025 at 1:15 PM, Kasimir said:

I would argue in fact that the missed opportunity element is what made the Elhokar loss so acute

I agree. If I didn't do a recent re-read I tend to forget the details of Elhokar's weaknesses and vile actions. But I always remember how he died, moving in the right direction. I think any character arc would have a hard time redeeming my image of him as much as his death did. 

What he might have gotten is kind of what we're doing with Venli anyways, isn't it? 

Edited January 31, 2025 by MagicMaggot

[Kasimir he/him]

13 minutes ago, MagicMaggot said:

I agree. If I didn't do a recent re-read I tend to forget the details of Elhokar's weaknesses and vile actions. But I always remember how he died, moving in the right direction. I think any character arc would have a hard time redeeming my image of him as much as his death did. 

What he might have gotten is kind of what we're doing with Venli anyways, isn't it? 

Thank you. I think you've put it perfectly.

Agreed on Venli. I do think that's one of the strengths of Stormlight Archives for me as a series. I really like characters who try to move in the right direction.

Edited to add:

36 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I so wanted in WoR for Kaladin to give Elhokar a version of the Bernard speech from Codex Alera:

I'd've loved to see that. You cited one of my favourite lines from Princep's Fury.

Edited January 31, 2025 by Kasimir