Healing annoyances.

[DoctaDajman]

Wayne points out in TLM that healing suffocation and strangulation take up a lot of gold storage. I assume it is because the healing cant fix the underlying condition.  

I was thinking about a rigged zephyr aether sandblaster and it makes me wonder how effective it would be against invested healers...

Now sandblasting could absolutely devastate flesh. This would likely be grown back by most forms of healing that we have seen. But what if instead of using it to main and cause mortal injuries that will be healed back it was instead deployed at range targeting the face.  

How well would the Spiritual Realm workings of invested healing contend with the constant presence of sand in ones eyes?  The healing would fix up the trauma caused by it eye blink by eye blink but the irritation and bodies natural tearing up would likely still exist until you removed the sand similarly to Not Wayne's body continuing to need more and more gold healing while being suffocated. Until you fix the outside issue the healing can only do so much. 

I think this plays into similar ideas as @alder24s awakened swarm and such. 

I find joy in such simple, yet potentially terrifyingly effective tactics within what may be viewed as weaker arts. 

[alder24]

7 hours ago, DoctaDajman said:

Wayne points out in TLM that healing suffocation and strangulation take up a lot of gold storage. I assume it is because the healing cant fix the underlying condition.  

I was thinking about a rigged zephyr aether sandblaster and it makes me wonder how effective it would be against invested healers...

Now sandblasting could absolutely devastate flesh. This would likely be grown back by most forms of healing that we have seen. But what if instead of using it to main and cause mortal injuries that will be healed back it was instead deployed at range targeting the face.  

How well would the Spiritual Realm workings of invested healing contend with the constant presence of sand in ones eyes?  The healing would fix up the trauma caused by it eye blink by eye blink but the irritation and bodies natural tearing up would likely still exist until you removed the sand similarly to Not Wayne's body continuing to need more and more gold healing while being suffocated. Until you fix the outside issue the healing can only do so much. 

I think this plays into similar ideas as @alder24s awakened swarm and such. 

I find joy in such simple, yet potentially terrifyingly effective tactics within what may be viewed as weaker arts. 

Interesting idea but it's quite different from suffocation. Healing can't provide oxygen to cells, it can only heal the damage done by the lack of it. But healing can and does remove bullets from wounds as it heals - it generally pushes them outside of the body, they don't stay inside. Sand would be like bullets so healing would just push it outside and it wouldn't be draining your storages. Only when you're being constantly blasted by new sand can this strategy be effective, or if you use something like aluminum dust which the body can't push out and can't heal around.

Spoiler

Kurkistan

What would happen if you shot a thug with an aluminum bullet or stabbed him with an aluminum knife?

Brandon Sanderson

Ah, that's a good question. The wound would not be able to heal around the aluminum, but once the aluminum came out and was gone from the system, they would be okay.

Kurkistan

Wait, is that a Bloodmaker, not a Thug?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, you're talking about Thugs?

It would work similarly, but it really wouldn't have a huge effect on them.

Kurkistan

Alright, because Peter was implying that there was some weird aluminum interaction with Thugs.

Brandon Sanderson

What was he thinking of...?

There is some weird interaction but...

Kurkistan

In the wedding scene, Wax thinks they would have aluminum bullets to deal with Thugs, and I was like, "Oh, that's a typo." And Peter was like, "Oh no it's not..."

Brandon Sanderson

No, no. That would just be-- it's like I said: healing it until the bullet is gone, it's just the same as Bloodmakers.

Footnote: Referring to AoL sample chapter commentary.
Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

 

[DoctaDajman]

31 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Interesting idea but it's quite different from suffocation. Healing can't provide oxygen to cells, it can only heal the damage done by the lack of it. But healing can and does remove bullets from wounds as it heals - it generally pushes them outside of the body, they don't stay inside. Sand would be like bullets so healing would just push it outside and it wouldn't be draining your storages. Only when you're being constantly blasted by new sand can this strategy be effective, or if you use something like aluminum dust which the body can't push out and can't heal around.

  Reveal hidden contents

Kurkistan

What would happen if you shot a thug with an aluminum bullet or stabbed him with an aluminum knife?

Brandon Sanderson

Ah, that's a good question. The wound would not be able to heal around the aluminum, but once the aluminum came out and was gone from the system, they would be okay.

Kurkistan

Wait, is that a Bloodmaker, not a Thug?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, you're talking about Thugs?

It would work similarly, but it really wouldn't have a huge effect on them.

Kurkistan

Alright, because Peter was implying that there was some weird aluminum interaction with Thugs.

Brandon Sanderson

What was he thinking of...?

There is some weird interaction but...

Kurkistan

In the wedding scene, Wax thinks they would have aluminum bullets to deal with Thugs, and I was like, "Oh, that's a typo." And Peter was like, "Oh no it's not..."

Brandon Sanderson

No, no. That would just be-- it's like I said: healing it until the bullet is gone, it's just the same as Bloodmakers.

Footnote: Referring to AoL sample chapter commentary.
Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

 

Yeah I imagined the sand would get pushed out of the eye itself but thought it would only be to the surface level causing each new blink to to mess it up. Trapped in the eyelid if you will. 

But aluminum dust is brilliant. You wouldn't even need it to all be aluminum. Just a % of its mixed with the other dust to carry it and cut cost. Just a couple flecks of aluminum in the eyes would be effective for nearly blinding your opponent. Nice thought. 

[Quantus he/him]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Interesting idea but it's quite different from suffocation. Healing can't provide oxygen to cells, it can only heal the damage done by the lack of it. But healing can and does remove bullets from wounds as it heals - it generally pushes them outside of the body, they don't stay inside. Sand would be like bullets so healing would just push it outside and it wouldn't be draining your storages. Only when you're being constantly blasted by new sand can this strategy be effective, or if you use something like aluminum dust which the body can't push out and can't heal around.

 

It would still take some of the gold reserves to push out the sand and repair any cornea scratches that might have happened (took me antibiotics and a few days with an eyepatch, as a kid).  Sandblasting at significant speeds (and especially with some sort of sharp particulate like pumice or volcanic ash or Rosite Aether) could do enough actual flesh damage to require Healing the eyes or otherwise.   Though Fire would probably be easier and more effective per BEU.  

1 hour ago, DoctaDajman said:

Yeah I imagined the sand would get pushed out of the eye itself but thought it would only be to the surface level causing each new blink to to mess it up. Trapped in the eyelid if you will. 

But aluminum dust is brilliant. You wouldn't even need it to all be aluminum. Just a % of its mixed with the other dust to carry it and cut cost. Just a couple flecks of aluminum in the eyes would be effective for nearly blinding your opponent. Nice thought. 

The only caveat might be if aluminum dust collapses the zephyr Investiture effect and negates any air pressure/movement touching/driving the dust.  If feels like it should disrupt that effect just as much as if you tried to mix aluminum dust in with White Sand and them manipulate it.  

[DoctaDajman]

23 minutes ago, Quantus said:

It would still take some of the gold reserves to push out the sand and repair any cornea scratches that might have happened (took me antibiotics and a few days with an eyepatch, as a kid).  Sandblasting at significant speeds (and especially with some sort of sharp particulate like pumice or volcanic ash or Rosite Aether) could do enough actual flesh damage to require Healing the eyes or otherwise.   Though Fire would probably be easier and more effective per BEU.  

The only caveat might be if aluminum dust collapses the zephyr Investiture effect and negates any air pressure/movement touching/driving the dust.  If feels like it should disrupt that effect just as much as if you tried to mix aluminum dust in with White Sand and them manipulate it.  

I thought silver destroyed aether but aluminum continues simply being immune to investiture. 

Like you can't push aluminum but you can throw it. In my mind, at least, there is a big difference in using investiture to move aluminum and using investiture to affect the thing moving aluminum. Tiny particulates of aluminum may disrupt a field to some effect but once they are airborne they still are effected by the laws of physics. 

In this case it is a tube feeding into another tube with sand / dust / aluminum all mixed together sitting at the edge of the tube. The air that is shot through the tube would simply create the negative pressure needed to entrain those particulates up into the flow and shoot them out. 

The beauty of zephyr in this instance is that you can use a small amount of pressurized aether and entrain in more air that is not influenced by investiture at all to create the effect. 

Its how we use Venturi Masks in the hospital or other air entrainment devices to turn 15lpm of O2 flow into 80lpm of high flow aerosol. 

[Quantus he/him]

3 hours ago, DoctaDajman said:

I thought silver destroyed aether but aluminum continues simply being immune to investiture. 

Like you can't push aluminum but you can throw it. In my mind, at least, there is a big difference in using investiture to move aluminum and using investiture to affect the thing moving aluminum. Tiny particulates of aluminum may disrupt a field to some effect but once they are airborne they still are effected by the laws of physics. 

In this case it is a tube feeding into another tube with sand / dust / aluminum all mixed together sitting at the edge of the tube. The air that is shot through the tube would simply create the negative pressure needed to entrain those particulates up into the flow and shoot them out. 

The beauty of zephyr in this instance is that you can use a small amount of pressurized aether and entrain in more air that is not influenced by investiture at all to create the effect. 

Its how we use Venturi Masks in the hospital or other air entrainment devices to turn 15lpm of O2 flow into 80lpm of high flow aerosol. 

The issue Im imagining is that Aluminum's interreference is a field effect per WOB, it's not line of sight or contact only.  So while something like the vines of a Verdant Aether might have a better chance since it would be external/surface contacts only, Air or a fluid trying to move Aluminum around would need to form too much of a mixture that would saturate the whole thing with that field effect.  

 

[DoctaDajman]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

The issue Im imagining is that Aluminum's interreference is a field effect per WOB, it's not line of sight or contact only.  So while something like the vines of a Verdant Aether might have a better chance since it would be external/surface contacts only, Air or a fluid trying to move Aluminum around would need to form too much of a mixture that would saturate the whole thing with that field effect.  

 

Is there are system of air entrainment that could produce enough pressure to move the particles to make it work? Even if the aether itself were to not impact aluminum, wouldn't a jet of aether being used to start entrainment of other air and particles be enough to move it?  

Also there could be that the other sand particles could pick up and send the aluminum depending on how much of it is in the mixture. 

It makes me wonder about aluminum shot in an air rifle being powered by zephyr. The aether may not push the aluminum but you could still launch slugs if you had a wad in the barrel. The aether would only need to effect the wad between itself and the aluminum to launch the aluminum projectile. 

So if I can generate a massive pressurized jet of aether that entrains a bunch of other air and passes over the mixture of sand then the sand plus the additional air that isnt be powered by aether should work.  

Similarly... if aether were used to drive air compression then wouldn't that compressed air still work for it?  

My ideas and what makes me excited about zephyr is that the aether can simply be used to power so many devices. 

[alder24]

20 hours ago, Quantus said:

It would still take some of the gold reserves to push out the sand and repair any cornea scratches that might have happened (took me antibiotics and a few days with an eyepatch, as a kid).  Sandblasting at significant speeds (and especially with some sort of sharp particulate like pumice or volcanic ash or Rosite Aether) could do enough actual flesh damage to require Healing the eyes or otherwise.   Though Fire would probably be easier and more effective per BEU.  

Of course, I meant by this that sand won't stay in your body and won't require constant healing to keep your body alive in the same way suffocation requires it. It would be just one moment of healing and the sand would be gone from your body, with every wound sealed off. 

21 hours ago, Quantus said:

The only caveat might be if aluminum dust collapses the zephyr Investiture effect and negates any air pressure/movement touching/driving the dust.  If feels like it should disrupt that effect just as much as if you tried to mix aluminum dust in with White Sand and them manipulate it.  

Good point and it seems like a probable outcome.

[Quantus he/him]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Of course, I meant by this that sand won't stay in your body and won't require constant healing to keep your body alive in the same way suffocation requires it. It would be just one moment of healing and the sand would be gone from your body, with every wound sealed off. 

Good point and it seems like a probable outcome.

Ah, sorry, yeah that makes sense.  

18 hours ago, DoctaDajman said:

Is there are system of air entrainment that could produce enough pressure to move the particles to make it work? Even if the aether itself were to not impact aluminum, wouldn't a jet of aether being used to start entrainment of other air and particles be enough to move it?  

Also there could be that the other sand particles could pick up and send the aluminum depending on how much of it is in the mixture. 

It makes me wonder about aluminum shot in an air rifle being powered by zephyr. The aether may not push the aluminum but you could still launch slugs if you had a wad in the barrel. The aether would only need to effect the wad between itself and the aluminum to launch the aluminum projectile. 

So if I can generate a massive pressurized jet of aether that entrains a bunch of other air and passes over the mixture of sand then the sand plus the additional air that isnt be powered by aether should work.  

Similarly... if aether were used to drive air compression then wouldn't that compressed air still work for it?  

My ideas and what makes me excited about zephyr is that the aether can simply be used to power so many devices. 

Oh, absolutely, my concern would only be with trying to manipulate the Aluminum/air mixture in an ongoing way or trying to create the pressure purely from Intent and Investiture with the Aluminum present and interacting (it should collapse such effects just as much as the Target's healing).

But if you just create the Aether-air in a pressurized container and let physics take over, an aluminum shot airgun should be entirely possible.  For Tress aethers the mechanism would basically just be a RL miner's Carbide/Acetylene lamp: a container with a bed of reactive solids that release a Gas, and a controlled water drip mechanism over it.  Then you just nee a barrel and a feed tube&basin for the Aluminum shot/dust somewhere between the design of a normal sandblaster and a normal paintball gun.   

[DoctaDajman]

5 hours ago, Quantus said:

Ah, sorry, yeah that makes sense.  

Oh, absolutely, my concern would only be with trying to manipulate the Aluminum/air mixture in an ongoing way or trying to create the pressure purely from Intent and Investiture with the Aluminum present and interacting (it should collapse such effects just as much as the Target's healing).

But if you just create the Aether-air in a pressurized container and let physics take over, an aluminum shot airgun should be entirely possible.  For Tress aethers the mechanism would basically just be a RL miner's Carbide/Acetylene lamp: a container with a bed of reactive solids that release a Gas, and a controlled water drip mechanism over it.  Then you just nee a barrel and a feed tube&basin for the Aluminum shot/dust somewhere between the design of a normal sandblaster and a normal paintball gun.   

Yeah I think that is more what I was envisioning. Carrying an air compressor around and powering it constantly would be a paint. Being able to simply fuel your own pneumatic weapons systems on the go without the need for fuel and power sources.

To be fair.... if you just want to shoot something, I dont see any air rifle competing with good old fashion firearms anyways. There are options that could be quite powerful still yet.  

Blow guns and Darts are effective. How much could you scale up the weight of a dart using zephyr aether?  And if your dart kept an aluminum tip far enough down the shaft and away from the air then perhaps the aether being used to launch it would be less effected by the Aluminum itself. 

Basically make a repeating harpoon gun (worth testing with aluminum).  

 

 

[Quantus he/him]

14 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

Yeah I think that is more what I was envisioning. Carrying an air compressor around and powering it constantly would be a paint. Being able to simply fuel your own pneumatic weapons systems on the go without the need for fuel and power sources.

To be fair.... if you just want to shoot something, I dont see any air rifle competing with good old fashion firearms anyways. There are options that could be quite powerful still yet.  

I was actually surprised to learn that there was a time where air-power rifles were objectively better than their contemporary gunpowder rifles.  Specifically there was a rapid-fire air rifle that the Lewis & Clark expedition carried for hunting.  It had a muzzle velocity of 1000 fps and was accurate at 100 yards, compared to 50 yards of its contemporary muzzle loaders.  It also held 20 lead rifle balls that could all be fired in 30 seconds (thanks to the air reservoir and a ball gravity feed system) compared to the single-shot reload time of the contemporary muzzle-loaders.  The issue was that it needed a separate compressor rid to recharge the air tank stocks that powered it, which was a beast to do by hand.  A Zephyr-Water reaction could do that by basic physics even if it's slow, and would never need to come in contact with Aluminum during the reaction.  If it's fast enough the reaction might be able to replace gunpowder directly.  

https://lewis-clark.org/tools-and-techniques/weapons/lewiss-air-gun/

https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/article/lewis-and-clarks-girandoni-air-rifle/

14 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

Blow guns and Darts are effective. How much could you scale up the weight of a dart using zephyr aether?  And if your dart kept an aluminum tip far enough down the shaft and away from the air then perhaps the aether being used to launch it would be less effected by the Aluminum itself. 

Basically make a repeating harpoon gun (worth testing with aluminum).  

Darts and harpoons would have all the same challenges with heavier ammunition.  Zephyr-propelled Rockets, on the other hand....

[1000CremlingsInATrenchcoat He/Him]

From what we know about waterboarding, I think this method would still be more problematic as psychological damage than physical damage, which, as we've often seen, is one way to harm an invested being. As someone else said, the sand would be pushed out of the skin. It would be suffocating, yes, and lung-fulls of sand would be incredibly hard to heal from, for sure. If you're talking about Splinter levels of Investiture, it could potentially drown them slowly, but yeah someone like Wayne would go down pretty quickly to that.

[DoctaDajman]

13 hours ago, 1000CremlingsInATrenchcoat said:

From what we know about waterboarding, I think this method would still be more problematic as psychological damage than physical damage, which, as we've often seen, is one way to harm an invested being. As someone else said, the sand would be pushed out of the skin. It would be suffocating, yes, and lung-fulls of sand would be incredibly hard to heal from, for sure. If you're talking about Splinter levels of Investiture, it could potentially drown them slowly, but yeah someone like Wayne would go down pretty quickly to that.

I hadn't thought of the discomfort that would be from simply getting a face full of the grit.  I was merely thinking of the eyes and the pain there as well as the inability to focus up. 

A fine dust or sand blast to the face in general could absolutely wreck the respiratory system. I have a hard time envisioning the way healing works in the cosmere. Would it bypass all natural defense systems as the investiture simply removes the bad in whatever way it needs to?  I think there would necessarily be some form of physiological action to cough up and expell whatever irritant is in there, even if investiture is making it move more easily. I can't imagine the magic marching out a slurry of sandy mud up the mucosa and over all of the sensitive areas without triggering cough or gag reflexes to expell it. 

In a conflict where every action needs to be met with a reaction, it seems to me that the extra blinks to clear the sand, the extra cough or gag, would make for a clear advantage regardless of the healing that could be taking place. Hundreds of foreign bodies in the eyes nose and mouth, would still need to be cleared out to prevent the body from going through the natural physiological efforts of removing it. 

 

15 hours ago, Quantus said:

I was actually surprised to learn that there was a time where air-power rifles were objectively better than their contemporary gunpowder rifles.  Specifically there was a rapid-fire air rifle that the Lewis & Clark expedition carried for hunting.  It had a muzzle velocity of 1000 fps and was accurate at 100 yards, compared to 50 yards of its contemporary muzzle loaders.  It also held 20 lead rifle balls that could all be fired in 30 seconds (thanks to the air reservoir and a ball gravity feed system) compared to the single-shot reload time of the contemporary muzzle-loaders.  The issue was that it needed a separate compressor rid to recharge the air tank stocks that powered it, which was a beast to do by hand.  A Zephyr-Water reaction could do that by basic physics even if it's slow, and would never need to come in contact with Aluminum during the reaction.  If it's fast enough the reaction might be able to replace gunpowder directly.  

https://lewis-clark.org/tools-and-techniques/weapons/lewiss-air-gun/

https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/article/lewis-and-clarks-girandoni-air-rifle/

Darts and harpoons would have all the same challenges with heavier ammunition.  Zephyr-propelled Rockets, on the other hand....

I had no idea that thing existed. That is dope. 

My love for Darts is that you can make them work within a tube and still gain the advantages of using nice broadhead mechanics for maximum penetration.  If a dart can be used from a blowgun for hunting I figure a scaled up version with zephyr would be probable. 

The rockets sound interesting.