An idea for the missing Odium + Cultivation Intent

[coolsnow7]

We know that Odium + Honor = [War/Justice/Vengeance/something like that]

We know that Honor + Cultivation = [Science/Progress/Enlightenment/something like that]

What is Odium + Cultivation? This question likely takes on a fair bit of importance because Brandon has had plenty of opportunities to hint at what it might be and is clearly hiding the ball from us. I'll give my best guess but really I'd like to inspire more discussion and speculation about what the answer might be.

My best guess: we see that under two different Vessels, and despite Cultivation's best efforts, Odium reaches the same conclusion regardless: that the good of the Cosmere requires more direct Shardic intervention and a monopoly on Godhood (ie, the cleansing of competing Shards from the Cosmere.) 

Another thing that keeps coming up - in Taravangian's discussions with Dalinar, and then in Odium/Taravangian's internal dialogue upon Ascension ("and now he was going to save them all") - is the need to be the person/being to solve the problem (however that problem is defined.) There's a self-centeredness to Odium that isn't explicit in the shard's Intent but appears to be implicit in it.

Finally Cultivation: what little we know about her is that she likes to see things grow in a prescribed way. Cultivation is not simply growth, but directed growth. However, growth comes from the subject themselves, as opposed to Cultivation imposing it on them. Note that it is Cultivation who accepts Venli's Words, which are about freeing those in bondage: the connection there is that freedom from bondage enables independent growth, which Cultivation would like to guide but not impose.

So my best guess for the combination of these attributes is: Tyranny. Odium/Cultivation would represent a monopoly on the ends to which growth should aspire, namely serving them; and it would seek to shape the way a society functions so that it grows to serve them and their interests.

"Oh come on, Coolsnow7, we already have a Dominion Shard!"

I agree, but I think there's a subtle distinction which can work: Dominion represents complete negation of the subject's will. Tyranny does not always work that way; think of an autocratic society like Soviet Russia where people are free to pursue their own projects as long as their goals are aligned with the Party's. Diversity of thought and method is encouraged; diversity of goals is utterly prohibited.

[Stark he/him]

I always figured that Cultivated Hatred would be Vengeance.  

[bmcclure7]

55 minutes ago, coolsnow7 said:

We know that Odium + Honor = [War/Justice/Vengeance/something like that]

We know that Honor + Cultivation = [Science/Progress/Enlightenment/something like that]

What is Odium + Cultivation? This question likely takes on a fair bit of importance because Brandon has had plenty of opportunities to hint at what it might be and is clearly hiding the ball from us. I'll give my best guess but really I'd like to inspire more discussion and speculation about what the answer might be.

My best guess: we see that under two different Vessels, and despite Cultivation's best efforts, Odium reaches the same conclusion regardless: that the good of the Cosmere requires more direct Shardic intervention and a monopoly on Godhood (ie, the cleansing of competing Shards from the Cosmere.) 

Another thing that keeps coming up - in Taravangian's discussions with Dalinar, and then in Odium/Taravangian's internal dialogue upon Ascension ("and now he was going to save them all") - is the need to be the person/being to solve the problem (however that problem is defined.) There's a self-centeredness to Odium that isn't explicit in the shard's Intent but appears to be implicit in it.

Finally Cultivation: what little we know about her is that she likes to see things grow in a prescribed way. Cultivation is not simply growth, but directed growth. However, growth comes from the subject themselves, as opposed to Cultivation imposing it on them. Note that it is Cultivation who accepts Venli's Words, which are about freeing those in bondage: the connection there is that freedom from bondage enables independent growth, which Cultivation would like to guide but not impose.

So my best guess for the combination of these attributes is: Tyranny. Odium/Cultivation would represent a monopoly on the ends to which growth should aspire, namely serving them; and it would seek to shape the way a society functions so that it grows to serve them and their interests.

"Oh come on, Coolsnow7, we already have a Dominion Shard!"

I agree, but I think there's a subtle distinction which can work: Dominion represents complete negation of the subject's will. Tyranny does not always work that way; think of an autocratic society like Soviet Russia where people are free to pursue their own projects as long as their goals are aligned with the Party's. Diversity of thought and method is encouraged; diversity of goals is utterly prohibited.

Fundamentally wrong rhythm of war describes it as much closer to freedom not tyranny. Odium is not the shard of domination. It has no desire to control anything. It hates it doesn’t rule. 
 

The combination will probably produce something like chaos. Ungovernable growth or perhaps malevolent growth.

Edited October 28, 2024 by bmcclure7

[alder24]

1 hour ago, coolsnow7 said:

What is Odium + Cultivation? 

Missing? i think this was clearly established in RoW ch 83:

Quote

Venli searched for something else. The tone of Cultivation. Odium’s song could suffuse her, fueling her powers and enflaming her emotions, but that tone … that tone had belonged to her people long before he’d arrived. While she searched for it, she listened to her mother’s songs in her mind. Like chains, spiked into the stone so they’d remain strong during storms, they reached backward through time. Through generations.
To her people, leaving the battlefield. Walking away rather than continuing to squabble over the same ground over and over. They hadn’t merely rejected the singer gods, they’d rejected the conflict. Holding to family, singing to Love despite their dull forms, they’d left the war and gone a new way.
The tone snapped into her mind, Cultivation and Odium mixing into a harmony, and it thrummed through Venli.
[...]
Freedom. The stones whispered to her of freedom.

It's about freedom.

[duladen he/him]

Is there a word for getting really into exercise or some other hobby in the wake of a breakup? That’s probably the answer (kidding…)

[+Child of Hodor]

5 hours ago, duladen said:

Is there a word for getting really into exercise or some other hobby in the wake of a breakup? That’s probably the answer (kidding…)

19 hours ago, Stark said:

I always figured that Cultivated Hatred would be Vengeance.  

They call that getting a "revenge body" so these go together nicely

 

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

On 10/28/2024 at 10:14 AM, coolsnow7 said:

What is Odium + Cultivation?

My theory has always been Malignance. Cancerous growth, a growing hatred. Terrifying indeed.

[duladen he/him]

13 minutes ago, Dreamwa1ker said:

My theory has always been Malignance. Cancerous growth, a growing hatred. Terrifying indeed.

Malignance is an awesome idea.

[Wanguu He/Him]

One of the main issues with Odium is that it is divine emotions (particularly anger, it seems) without anything to balance it - it is possible that we're leaning too far into the anger part of it. Or, maybe it needs something like Mercy, Devotion, or Endowment.

[coolsnow7]

On 10/28/2024 at 1:10 PM, alder24 said:

Missing? i think this was clearly established in RoW ch 83:

It's about freedom.

Well RIP that idea, and thank you for pointing out my error. I can’t believe that I missed that on my rereads of RoW! I’ve been dwelling on this for a long time thinking it was going to be a major plot point, and instead it was just hiding in plain sight.

I have to say I also don’t like what Brandon came up with - I don’t think “freedom” is much implied in either Odium’s or Cultivation’s Intents. But whatever, not only was I wrong but I was completely the opposite of what Brandon had in mind.

[Sophrosyne He/any]

Something I noticed a while back was that the other two lights are named for how they were found. Towerlight found in a literal tower, and Warlight found in the middle of war. S, I've liked Parshlight personally but I'm sure there's some other options.

[Master Silver]

If Odium and Cultivation combine, you would have divine wrath being cultivated. In theology, sometimes hell is described as a place absent of God's mercy, but a cultivated divine wrath that only grows, would be another terrifying way to describe it. But calling it the Shard of hell doesn't seem to fit. But what about Misery. 

[elihaun]

I think if you mix cultivation and passion/odium, you get discipline.  Think of bootcamp: grueling, emotional training that makes you grow and adjust.  Its not quite WAR like Odium+ Honor that is all about KILLING for what you believe, but it is just as dangerous.  Discipline would be different from Devotion or domination. a never ending war would be perfect for a discipline shard, as cultivation is more about pruning than anything else.   Imagine an army full of Kaladins (not him, but people like him), people with Passion and hatred of light eyes (or in this case, other shards) that are forced to adapt and change or die on a daily basis. It would be an army like the cosmere has never seen

[Miyabi She/Her]

[Amusement] Cultivating Odium obviously leads to only one place.  Batman.

[teknopathetic he/him]

Cultivation and Odium = Revolution (angry freedom) 

Honour + Odium = Justice or Retribution 

Edited November 4, 2024 by teknopathetic

[OoklaApologist She/her]

On 10/28/2024 at 10:14 AM, coolsnow7 said:

Diversity of thought and method is encouraged; diversity of goals is utterly prohibited.

Isn't that what Autonomy does?

[teknopathetic he/him]

The “freedom” thing to me sounds like “revolution” as in cultivated change based on anger or grievance 

We know the power behind Odium likes to be questioned or to argue, so question systems makes sense to me for this combination. 

Edited November 17, 2024 by teknopathetic

[bmcclure7]

46 minutes ago, SpiritOfWrath said:

Hehe no I just mean the sorta thing like someone is prepared to save the world, but the bad guy turns out to be someone they know and love, or like to get the bad guy, they need to do smt horrible.

Ok I understand 

11 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

The “freedom” thing to me sounds like “revolution” as in cultivated change based on anger or grievance 

We know the power behind Odium likes to be questioned or to argue, so question systems makes sense to me for this combination. 

I think this is probably the best guess so far

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

20 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

The “freedom” thing to me sounds like “revolution” as in cultivated change based on anger or grievance 

We know the power behind Odium likes to be questioned or to argue, so question systems makes sense to me for this combination. 

Thank you, that is the first time this idea has made sense for me.

[Rorzikel]

On 11/15/2024 at 2:32 PM, KelsierApologist said:

Isn't that what Autonomy does?

I've wondered if mergers of two intents might produce rhythms that naturally mirror existing shards. (Honor+Odium=War sounding rather like Valor) Depending on how the Dawnshards split Ado to sixteen, combinations of two or three might balance out to resemble another shard.

[Sophrosyne He/any]

2 hours ago, Rorzikel said:

I've wondered if mergers of two intents might produce rhythms that naturally mirror existing shards. (Honor+Odium=War sounding rather like Valor) Depending on how the Dawnshards split Ado to sixteen, combinations of two or three might balance out to resemble another shard.

Logically this has to be true right? Some combinations of shards are going to appear like other shards. Cultivation and Odium making something an awful lot like run checks to me.

[Eahlendell]

I always felt the combination of Towerlight (science) and Warlight could represent all three shards coming together as Civilisation. The British kind, where we tried to impose our ideals and values on the whole world. 

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

7 minutes ago, Eahlendell said:

I always felt the combination of Towerlight (science) and Warlight could represent all three shards coming together as Civilisation. The British kind, where we tried to impose our ideals and values on the whole world. 

Ah, the shard of Colonialism. 

I kid but that actually could make a pretty interesting big bad for future Cosmere and (Emberdark Spoiler)

Spoiler

we see scary future Rosharans trying to exploit another planet/ extort resources so it would be on-brand.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 11/15/2024 at 1:32 PM, KelsierApologist said:

Isn't that what Autonomy does?

No, Autonomy likes people like Wax who go against her and is known for rewarding people who disobey her instructions as long as they do well.

[ShadowBroker]

On 10/28/2024 at 8:40 AM, Stark said:

I always figured that Cultivated Hatred would be Vengeance.  

Nah. You're neglecting that Odium already is vengeance. The full definition:

o·di·um

/ˈōdēəm/

noun

general or widespread hatred or disgust directed toward someone as a result of their actions.

 

That's why the Singers are the soldiers of Odium, they have a legitimate grievance for which they seek vengeance. Vyre's fall to Odium also represents this, his hatred for Elhokar and the Lighteyes doesn't come from nowhere.