Allomantic and Feruchemic alloy compositions

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

This one has been bothering me...do we know for an outright fact that allomantic and feruchemic alloys are fundamentally of the same compositional ratios?

I don't mean this to be an arbitrary hurdle against Compounding. I'm trying to bridge what i see as a cognitive gap between era1 mistborn having the freedom to burn "bad" allomantic metals (with appropriate negative effects) and the Feruchemists that we've seen never having voiced a similar complaint from their side.

My thought is...Feruchemy may simply not care as much about alloy purity and composition on a fundamental level for storage and tapping purposes. Users may experience reduced efficiency with poorer alloys, and increased leakage with noticeable impurities, but this physiologically wouldn't directly translate into the poisoning and damaging effects we see with Allomancers trying to burn invalid metals.

On the flipside, a "bad" alloy that was Feruchemically converted from its natural state might function under allomancy as a "good" alloy by simple virtue of the fact that it has a direct 1-to-1 output defined for what it discharges when burned...

I may be overthinking this. Still though...I'd like a second opinion at least: do allomancy and feruchemy care about and rely on alloy purity to the same level of granularity?

Edit: for thematic purposes, I definitely DON'T know any people in the world who are worth exactly their mass in the most valuable alloy of electrum, and worth exactly their volume in the least valuable alloy of electrum. 

Edited October 8, 2024 by hwiles

[Treamayne]

6 hours ago, hwiles said:

My thought is...Feruchemy may simply not care as much about alloy purity and composition on a fundamental level for storage and tapping purposes. Users may experience reduced efficiency with poorer alloys, and increased leakage with noticeable impurities, but this physiologically wouldn't directly translate into the poisoning and damaging effects we see with Allomancers trying to burn invalid metals.

This: Bad alloys and impure metals will either be inefficient or fail entirely - depending on how far they are from the ideal.

Spoiler

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Dwarven_Hydra

When an Allomancer tries to burn a bad alloy, it can make them sick, or even kill them. Are there similar consequences for Feruchemy and Hemalurgy, such as being less efficient when storing and leaking power more quickly, or would such metals just be unusable?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes! Bad metals in Feruchemy/Hemalurgy would work poorly.

General Signed Books 2019 (July 2, 2019)

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Paleo

In Allomancy, bad alloys can be detrimental to you, can make you sick and stuff like that. Does it also apply in Feruchemy or generally impurities, do they apply?

Brandon Sanderson

Not as strongly.

Paleo

How would they apply? Is it more like a smaller charge or?

Brandon Sanderson

It would just take less of a charge. It wouldn't make you sick.

Prague Signing (Oct. 26, 2019)

 

 

6 hours ago, hwiles said:

do we know for an outright fact that allomantic and feruchemic alloys are fundamentally of the same compositional ratios?

It is implied by the Metal Tables - since the same pure metal and alloy is labelled for all three arts, but the closest WoBs to confirmation that I can find (Stormlight/Elantris Spoilers) are:

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tay95

A theme throughout a lot of the Cosmere novels is that form, of one sort or another (patterns, aons, etc.) has a crucial role to play in unlocking or using Investiture.

As a chemist, I'm curious about the role of form in Allomancy and Feruchemy. Does the underlying molecular or crystalline structure of the metal or alloy play a roll? Different processes, doping ratios, and metal mixtures result in different molecular packing, lattices, and ultimately structure. It seems like that kind of very defined, orderly matrix would be right in line with other forms of unlocking Investiture.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes! I've actually mentioned to people before that the chemistry of the various metals acts, for Allomancy, in the same way that the Aons work for AonDor. It's more a key than it is a source of power itself.

Worldbuilders AMA (Dec. 4, 2015)

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ArsenoPyrite

I have a technical question here re: gemstones in The Stormlight Archive. How are the lines drawn between different types of gem? Emerald and Heliodor are both varieties of the mineral beryl. Emerald can get its color from trace amounts of chromium, vanadium and/or iron. Heliodor gets its color from iron combined with microscopic crystal defects. So, is the line between these two defined by color? If so, would a heliodor lose its usefulness if it were heated (which would turn it colorless or pale blue). Is it defined by trace elements--in which case, how do you deal with emeralds, or with aquamarine (the blue variety of beryl, which can also contain chromium or vanadium in small quantities and is mostly colored by iron). Sorry for getting so technical, but this gem nerd needs to know!

Brandon Sanderson

I actually spent a long time working on this while building the world. You'd probably be amused by how long I spent on it. Chemically, many of them are actually very similar, as you pointed out. I tried doing the book originally with them all being different, not using any that were basically the same crystal with different colors, but it didn't work out. There weren't enough, and so I had to stretch to make it all work.

So, I went back to the original, and decided that color was enough to differentiate them. Just as steel and iron are very similar in the mistborn world, Emerald and Heliodor can be very similar--but produce different effects. The idea here is that the physical items (like the metals or the crystals) provide a key by which magical interaction occurs.

So, in a long winded answer, a gemstone with an impure color would be considered like a bad alloy in the Mistborn magic--it either wouldn't work at all, or would work very poorly. The chemical and color signature needs to be of a specific variety to provide the proper key to accessing the power of transformation.

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 15, 2013)

 

 

It's the chemistry and molecular structure that enables use with Investiture, if those were not the same then Compounding would not work. 

Hope that helps

[Sophrosyne He/any]

6 hours ago, hwiles said:

This one has been bothering me...do we know for an outright fact that allomantic and feruchemic alloys are fundamentally of the same compositional ratios?

Unless it was confirmed in a WoB i haven't read (very possible) It isn't 100% confirmed but it is HEAVLY implied in the text. Numerous times it could have been mention, and should have been in Era 2. and it wasn't.
 

6 hours ago, hwiles said:

My thought is...Feruchemy may simply not care as much about alloy purity and composition on a fundamental level for storage and tapping purposes. Users may experience reduced efficiency with poorer alloys, and increased leakage with noticeable impurities, but this physiologically wouldn't directly translate into the poisoning and damaging effects we see with Allomancers trying to burn invalid metals.

This is pretty confirmed by WoBs less good alloys work, just not as well.

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

2 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

This: Bad alloys and impure metals will either be inefficient or fail entirely - depending on how far they are from the ideal.

  Hide contents

 

 

It is implied by the Metal Tables - since the same pure metal and alloy is labelled for all three arts, but the closest WoBs to confirmation that I can find (Stormlight/Elantris Spoilers) are:

  Hide contents

 

It's the chemistry and molecular structure that enables use with Investiture, if those were not the same then Compounding would not work. 

Hope that helps

Literally a perfect answer, awesome and thanks!  I suppose it would probably be just a bit too wonky and confusing for the arts to utilize different alloys in-book. I was not aware of that WoB confirming the efficiency issue at all though, that rocks!