Seeing with spikes for eyes?

[Wits instant noodles he/him]

We see inquisitors and Kelsier seeing the world in a kind of blue outline when they have spikes for eyes. But would a coin shot who's blind be able to see in the same way? or do they still just see blue lines pointing to things?

[Trusk'our he/him]

11 minutes ago, Wits instant noodles said:

We see inquisitors and Kelsier seeing the world in a kind of blue outline when they have spikes for eyes. But would a coin shot who's blind be able to see in the same way? or do they still just see blue lines pointing to things?

It's possible for any Coinshot/Lurcher to see with the lines, though this isn't widely known. 

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/142-the-well-of-ascension-annotations/#e2944

Brandon Sanderson

By the way, you probably remember form book one the way that Inquisitors see. They have such a subtle touch with Steel and Iron, and their lines, that they can see via the trace metals in everyone's bodies and in the objects around them.

The thing is, any Allomancer with access to iron or steel could learn to do this. Some have figured it out, in the past, but in current times, nobody–at least, nobody the heroes know–is aware of this. Except, of course, for Marsh.

And he chose not to share it.

So, if they're properly motivated- like a Coinshot or Lurcher who's lost their vision- they could most likely learn to see as an Inquisitor does. 

If the Allomancer is instead born blind, I think they would probably be more likely to learn how to accurately sense the world around them through their Allomancy, but it wouldn’t be true sight, similar to a blind Oracle or Auger.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/190-rfantasy-ama-2013/#e4073

Herowannabe

What happens when a blind person burns Gold- especially of he "sees" a version of himself that isn't blind? Can he see the other version or just hear/feel/sense him? What about the other version, can it see things? Could a blind person use gold in this way to see the world around him?

Brandon Sanderson

A blind person would indeed sense these things, but not have the vision with the eyes. In the same way that a blind person still dreams, but doesn't "See" in them. (As I understand it.) I'd suggest talking to someone who is blind and getting their take on how this would work.

 

Edited October 3, 2024 by Trusk'our

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

The key point here is that hypersensitive iron/steel sight are not a functional replacement for eyes. They simply allow one to perceive the environment around them by granting atomic-scale perception of the trace metals present in nearly all physical materials in a sphere around the user. When Inquisitors use it in era1, and this will probably be true for any future movie/show adaptations, this is depicted as a sort of terminator-style digital machine HUD in place of eyes, however, during the teaching and training examples it is reviewed far more simply.

Short answer to your question: yes, a blind coinshot can learn (with significant training and practice or powerful artificial augmentation!) To perceive the world like an Inquisitor. The big caveat remains, however, that this sight is not like eyesight. It's simultaneous spherical vision centered on one's center of gravity instead of their eyes or brain.

Interestingly, people who utilize this form of sight might reasonably be expected to develop peculiar behavioral quirks, like poor posture, failing to look in the proper direction when speaking to people, and an incredibly stiff neck (why swivel one's head left, right, up, or down, if it has no effect on one's center of vision...?)

 

Edit: it occurs to me that Inquisitors might even accidentally look upwards when speaking to people shorter than them, simply because they technically "see" them from below if the person is taller than their stomach.  im as sure as i can be that this is true and that it probably shouldn't ever be shown on screen because of how obnoxiously silly it would actually be to see it in real life.

Edited October 3, 2024 by hwiles

[PanicPug]

On 10/3/2024 at 7:48 PM, hwiles said:

Short answer to your question: yes, a blind coinshot can learn (with significant training and practice or powerful artificial augmentation!) To perceive the world like an Inquisitor. The big caveat remains, however, that this sight is not like eyesight. It's simultaneous spherical vision centered on one's center of gravity instead of their eyes or brain.

Are we sure about this always being centered on a person's center of gravity? In a recent post someone explained Zane's shenanigans in Well Of Ascension when he rights himself in the air with only a single coin on the ground and no other metals around, indicating that he pushes and pulls not from his center, but rather from different places of his body (hands and feet in this case probably).

I would guess, that the lines in these cases would also not start from his center of gravity then, but I could be wrong.

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

30 minutes ago, PanicPug said:

Are we sure about this always being centered on a person's center of gravity? In a recent post someone explained Zane's shenanigans in Well Of Ascension when he rights himself in the air with only a single coin on the ground and no other metals around, indicating that he pushes and pulls not from his center, but rather from different places of his body (hands and feet in this case probably).

I would guess, that the lines in these cases would also not start from his center of gravity then, but I could be wrong.

Honestly, I think there are a handful of scenes where it can be undeniably argued that the characters are, by definition, pushing in an off-center way. The problem that this introduces is that you start to see kinda wonky rotation and inertia phenomena on page (Zane's implausible balance, Kelsier's spinning rods, and a few of Wax's most inspired tricks). You aren't wrong, I was just only trying to cover the typical and common situations this time, wherein, when a coinshot pushes, they do not tumble and flip through the air like a boomerang so much as arc like a thrown baseball if that makes sense. Again, you're right, some of them can definitely pull off tricks that aren't covered or defined yet in the ars arcanum rules. Lol

[alder24]

2 hours ago, PanicPug said:

Are we sure about this always being centered on a person's center of gravity? In a recent post someone explained Zane's shenanigans in Well Of Ascension when he rights himself in the air with only a single coin on the ground and no other metals around, indicating that he pushes and pulls not from his center, but rather from different places of his body (hands and feet in this case probably).

I would guess, that the lines in these cases would also not start from his center of gravity then, but I could be wrong.

Technically speaking, the lines are starting from the "center of self," not the center of gravity, which are close together, but not in the same place. 

I think it's possible for a highly skilled Allomancer to push from different parts of his body, possibly Marsh did this in TLM when he crushed ha gun in between his hands. Could Zane do this? Hard to say. 

Spoiler

Questioner

I have a theory. Because the center of gravity for a female is naturally lower, but when Vin burns iron or steel, the blue lines come from her chest, does that come from her center of self, rather than the center of gravity?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. That's probably a more accurate way to put it. 

Questioner

Would it be possible for that to change, then? 

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that is possible. I should say it like that, because it's not going to actually be... Because center of gravity, where you would actually put it, is not where I'm having those lines come from. You came in costume. You can just make that canon now and we will put that on all of the lists that that is what it is.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

[PanicPug]

Ah, good to know that it's center of self rather than center of gravity.

I mentioned Zane mainly since I thought the not-pushing/pulling-from-the-center trick might probably have an influence on the blue perception lines? Meaning that by using this trick a blind Allomancer might see the blue lines starting from anywhere else on their body, e.g. eyes or head or something?

Though I'm not sure if it would make "seeing" one's environment easier than having the lines start from the center of self (or maybe even harder).

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

1 hour ago, PanicPug said:

Ah, good to know that it's center of self rather than center of gravity.

I mentioned Zane mainly since I thought the not-pushing/pulling-from-the-center trick might probably have an influence on the blue perception lines? Meaning that by using this trick a blind Allomancer might see the blue lines starting from anywhere else on their body, e.g. eyes or head or something?

Though I'm not sure if it would make "seeing" one's environment easier than having the lines start from the center of self (or maybe even harder).

I imagine that the "blue lines" metaphor starts to break down above a certain threshold of information-saturation and evolves into its own unique form of sensory awareness. The real-world analog for that would be like how single-celled organisms can have a ultra-primitive form of "sight" in that they can experience involuntary reactions to electromagnetic waves within a specific frequency-band, whereas ultra-complex animals like birds (or people) can have hypersensitive wide-spectrum adaptive eyesight.

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, PanicPug said:

Though I'm not sure if it would make "seeing" one's environment easier than having the lines start from the center of self (or maybe even harder).

Keep in mind that there is a significant difference between a normal Allomancer burning Iron/Steel and a Hemalurgist (inquisitor or other eye-spike) that has A-Steel and/or A-Iron "hotwired" into the Spiitweb. This allows them to see the Metals (Axi) without burning metals - and therefore seeing in outlines rather than Connection Lines. It would likely be similar to the scene in Matrix where everything is outlined in Green. TLM and WoB indicates that at that level (which a normal Metal born could learn to do with practice, and how a Blind metal born would probably learn to live) the "lines" are so fine they effectively become invisibile seen before the oulines of the objects they represent. References:

Spoiler

Kar's PoV - TFE Ch 38:

Quote

He turned and smiled toward the group of Ministry priests, knowing full well the discomfort the gaze of an Inquisitor could cause. He couldn’t see anymore, not as he once had, but he had been given something better. A command of Allomancy so subtle, so detailed, that he could make out the world around him with startling accuracy.

Almost everything had metal in it—water, stone, glass… even human bodies. These metals were too diffuse to be affected by Allomancy—indeed, most Allomancers couldn’t even sense them.

With his Inquisitor’s eyes, however, Kar could see the ironlines of these things—the blue threads were fine, nearly invisible, but they outlined the world for him. The obligators before him were a shuffling mass of blues, their emotions—discomfort, anger, and fear—showing in their postures. Discomfort, anger, and fear… so sweet, all three. Kar’s smile widened

Marsh PoV - HoA Prologue

Quote

He stepped forward. Though he could no longer see as normal men did—after all, he had large steel spikes driven point-first through his eyes—he could sense the room around him. The spikes protruded from the back of his skull; if he reached up to touch the back of his head, he could feel the sharp points. There was no blood.

The spikes gave him power. Everything was outlined in fine blue Allomantic lines, highlighting the world. The room was of modest size, and several companions—also outlined in blue, the Allomantic lines pointing at the metals contained in their very blood—stood with Marsh. Each one had spikes through his eyes.

Each one, that is, except for the man tied to the table in front of him.

Marsh PoV - HoA Ch 34:

Quote

He stepped over her body and entered the house.

It was far nicer inside than the exterior had led him to expect. Rich furnishings, freshly painted walls, intricate ceramics. Marsh raised an eyebrow, scanning the room with his spiked eyes. The way his sight worked, it was hard for him to distinguish colors, but he was familiar enough with his powers now that he could pick them out if he wanted. The Allomantic lines from the metals inside of most things were really quite expressive.

To Marsh, the mansion was a place of pristine whiteness and bright blobs of expensive color. 

Kelsier PoV - TLM Epilogue 4

Quote

Kelsier didn’t see quite as he once had. One eye saw as a mortal, the other as an immortal. His spiked eye not only pinned his soul to his bones, but gave him a constant overlay of blue, letting him see the world as a being like Sazed did. Outlining not only sources of metal, but all things. The very axi that made up matter had their own polarity, influenceable with Steelpushing under the right circumstances.

One eye of the gods. One eye of the common men. As he had always tried to see the world.

And Since Kelsier has lost his Allomancy, it implies that H-Steel in the eyes hotwires a connection to Steelisight, even when one cannot influence the Metals directly. WoBs:

Quote

Kyrroti

If I were burning iron, where would the line point to on a steel hula-hoop?

Brandon Sanderson

For something like that, it would depend on the Steelpusher's power. For some, it would just be pointing generally toward the center of the hoop--but for skilled Steelpushers, they'd be able to see softer lines pointing in all directions around the hoop.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 12, 2018)

Quote

Questioner

Where do the lines point, exactly, when burning steel or iron?

Brandon Sanderson

Generally, right toward your center.

Questioner

On the objects?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, the objects. Center of mass, unless you are starting to get really good at it, whereupon you'll be able to kind of see a sort of spectrum that you can pull on and yank on.

Skyward Atlanta signing (Nov. 17, 2018)

Quote

Herowannabe

I recently picked up the Mistborn Adventure game and am loving it. I made a character who is a blind Mistborn because hey, I thought it would make for some interesting possibilities. As I understand Allomancy, he can hear/sense well enough to get around with Tin, plus even though he's blind he can still "see" steel lines (like the inquisitors), and I assume Atium would work the same way- that is, he could still "see" Atium shadows. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Brandon Sanderson

No, you're right. That works. He'd have to burn metals a LOT though. It might warp him a little.

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 15, 2013)

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

By the way, you probably remember form book one the way that Inquisitors see. They have such a subtle touch with Steel and Iron, and their lines, that they can see via the trace metals in everyone's bodies and in the objects around them.

The thing is, any Allomancer with access to iron or steel could learn to do this. Some have figured it out, in the past, but in current times, nobody–at least, nobody the heroes know–is aware of this. Except, of course, for Marsh.

And he chose not to share it.

The Well of Ascension Annotations (Nov. 11, 2007)

Quote

Argent

Mechanically speaking, how does steelsight work? The scientific definition of "metal" gets a little murky in the middle of the periodic table-

Brandon Sanderson

It does.

Argent

-and we see that powerful enough Allomancers can see more than just metals.

Brandon Sanderson

Yep.

Argent

Are Connection and perception significantly involved here?

Brandon Sanderson

To an extent, but the science of it also is. I feel like the stronger steelsight is getting, the more it is detecting things like electromagnetic bonds and even, you know, the strong and weak force and some of these sorts of things that is just in everything, right? And I do think that in strongest applications, Allomancy is going to be moving beyond metals and moving toward things like fundamental forces. So there you go.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021)

Quote

Titan Arum

Can iron/steelsight lines be used to identify specific metals? If yes, for only savants?

Brandon Sanderson

This is possible. Not just savants.

General Signed Books 2016 (Dec. 23, 2016)

 

Hope that helps