the winter system Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 Okay, this may have Spoilers for Warbreaker and the Stormlight Archive. Why I chose to put this in Warbreaker? I think that this is more Warbreaker than the Stormlight Archive. So, what would Nightblood ask Nightwatcher? The obvious answer is: Destroy Evil, but how would the Nightwatcher react to that? If it would fit better the Stormlight Archive forum, then tell me. Also, if you are going to have spoilers, please put them in the tag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Joe in the Bush Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 The Problem with that is that the Nightwatcher's Curses and Boons only Affect you. For Example: Dalinar's Curse was to forget all memory of his Wife. In one of the Interludes, a Man was cursed with Upside down Vision. Taravangian was gifted with Fluctuating Intelligence. So Since the Nightwatcher could only affect Nightblood, and He already Destroy's Evil, I imagine that she would gift him with morality, the ability to actually realize what was Evil. No Ideas on his curse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiver Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 Unless I'm wrong, doesn't the Nightwatcher give you what she thinks you deserve, not necessarily what you ask for? Of course, I'm very curious to see how a spren would react to, or interact with, Nightblood. I've been wondering whether or not Nightbloods ability to talk inside people's minds is connected to spren, and what that might mean going forward... like whether or not Nightblood could be hacked to work along the ten heartbeats thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the winter system Posted October 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 I think the morality is a pretty good guess. For the curse, it doesn't have to be related to the boon, as I recall. Nightblood and Nightwatcher's Conversation: Hello. Would you like to destroy some evil today? No. What is your heart's desire? Destroy evil! That will not work. Destroy evil! No, I can't do that, Nightblood. I want to destroy evil. Do you even know what evil is? Pause Uh, yes? Oh, seriously. You're a sword, you were designed to destroy evil, but you don't even know what evil is. Yes! I mean, no! Destroy evil! Are you evil? I am not evil, I am not good. I just am. Does that mean I should destroy you? No! Take a hint, Awakened Sword. Oh well. Fine. Take a boon, take a bane. AND GET OUT OF MY WINGS! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaze1616 Posted November 4, 2014 Report Share Posted November 4, 2014 Taravangian was gifted with Fluctuating Intelligence. I would argue that Taravangian's gift was to have the intelligence to save the world/solve the world's biggest problems, and his curse was the fluctuating intelligence, as well as potentially not crafting the best solution. I've been wondering whether or not Nightbloods ability to talk inside people's minds is connected to spren, and what that might mean going forward... like whether or not Nightblood could be hacked to work along the ten heartbeats thing. Given that spren are splinters, and that the splinters from Nalthis are specifically the Divine Breaths (not just ordinary Breath), I doubt that his telepathic abilities are fueled in such a manner due to his ability to speak with Vivenna, someone without a Divine Breath. In addition, since Shardblades are held within the Spiritual Realm when not summoned, and Nightblood was a physical sword prior to being Awakened, I doubt he could be held within the Spiritual Realm like the Shardblades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted November 4, 2014 Report Share Posted November 4, 2014 (edited) In addition, since Shardblades are held within the Spiritual Realm when not summoned, and Nightblood was a physical sword prior to being Awakened, I doubt he could be held within the Spiritual Realm like the Shardblades. WoR: Do you have a WoB on that? Words of Radiance implies they're still stored in the Physical, they're just invisible to most, as far as I know. Edited November 4, 2014 by Moogle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaze1616 Posted November 5, 2014 Report Share Posted November 5, 2014 WoR: Do you have a WoB on that? Words of Radiance implies they're still stored in the Physical, they're just invisible to most, as far as I know. Perhaps I am mistaken then. I thought I read in one of the theories on this site a WoB that said something along those lines. More directly, no. I do not (I am still bad at searching through them...). However, I do not believe they could be stored in the physical realm, as upon turning to mist, they are not simply invisible, but rather completely gone. Moreover, as the end of WoR shows, the shardblades are actually spren, implying a relationship with the cognitive realm. I apologize for jumping the gun a little there...heh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted November 6, 2014 Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 (edited) However, I do not believe they could be stored in the physical realm, as upon turning to mist, they are not simply invisible, but rather completely gone. Moreover, as the end of WoR shows, the shardblades are actually spren, implying a relationship with the cognitive realm. Well, my problem with this theory is that it doesn't follow the rules for Radiant spren. When Radiant spren aren't in Shardblade form, they're still in the Physical, just invisible to most people. Why would dead spren shift them to the Spiritual rather than follow the same rule? Edited November 6, 2014 by Moogle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaze1616 Posted November 6, 2014 Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 (edited) Well, my problem with this theory is that it doesn't follow the rules for Radiant spren. When Radiant spren aren't in Shardblade form, they're still in the Physical, just invisible to most people. Why would dead spren shift them to the Spiritual rather than follow the same rule? That's true, but then what happens to the matter? When the blades are dismissed, they are completely gone. I suppose they could revert to a more insubstantial form, and so not only are they invisible, but they are also intangible, so anyone attempting to touch a dismissed blade would think that the blade disappeared, as everyone within the two novels feels that the blades are simply gone. Spren, however, are not just in the physical realm. When Shallan travels to Shadesmar, both on the ship and at the beach, Pattern is also in Shadesmar. This implies that the spren's forms bridge across both realms, Cognitive and Physical. Moreover, using Pattern as the model, as we have never seen Jasnah's spren in Shadesmar, Pattern's form in the Cognitive realm was far more intricate and whole (is that the right word?), potentially meaning that the spren's forms are anchored in the Cognitive realm. This could mean that the blades, as dead spren, are sitting in the Cognitive realm, and when summoned take physcial form within the physical realm, and upon dismissal return to their invisible, intangible form within the physical realm. I suppose we just do not know enough about creatures that live within the Cognitive realm. Edited November 6, 2014 by Blaze1616 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted November 6, 2014 Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 That's true, but then what happens to the matter? When the blades are dismissed, they are completely gone. I suppose they could revert to a more insubstantial form, and so not only are they invisible, but they are also intangible, so anyone attempting to touch a dismissed blade would think that the blade disappeared, as everyone within the two novels feels that the blades are simply gone. Spren, however, are not just in the physical realm. When Shallan travels to Shadesmar, both on the ship and at the beach, Pattern is also in Shadesmar. This implies that the spren's forms bridge across both realms, Cognitive and Physical. Moreover, using Pattern as the model, as we have never seen Jasnah's spren in Shadesmar, Pattern's form in the Cognitive realm was far more intricate and whole (is that the right word?), potentially meaning that the spren's forms are anchored in the Cognitive realm. This could mean that the blades, as dead spren, are sitting in the Cognitive realm, and when summoned take physcial form within the physical realm, and upon dismissal return to their invisible, intangible form within the physical realm. I suppose we just do not know enough about creatures that live within the Cognitive realm. Everything you say is plausible, but I'm still not sure why you're favoring that explanation over the standard rules for Shardblades. Syl, when she's not in use as a Blade, sticks around in the Physical, as do all the other live spren. You're saying this suddenly changes for dead spren such that when they turn to mist, they end up Shadesmar. I'm not sure why you think this. Why do you think the dead spren end up in the Cognitive as opposed to staying in the Physical like Syl and Pattern? It seems to add complexity for no reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaze1616 Posted November 6, 2014 Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 Everything you say is plausible, but I'm still not sure why you're favoring that explanation over the standard rules for Shardblades. Syl, when she's not in use as a Blade, sticks around in the Physical, as do all the other live spren. You're saying this suddenly changes for dead spren such that when they turn to mist, they end up Shadesmar. I'm not sure why you think this. Why do you think the dead spren end up in the Cognitive as opposed to staying in the Physical like Syl and Pattern? It seems to add complexity for no reason. I'm sorry, I didn't quite make my point clear enough (rather I thought it had been clear but now realize it wasn't). My apologies. By pointing out that spren seem to be anchored in the Cognitive realm, I meant that their physical representation is them reaching across the boundaries of the realms. As such, when the spren dies, they are no longer actively working their "muscles" to reach across the gap, and revert back to the Cognitive realm. Similarly to how, if you were to die while holding a pen, upon death your muscles are no longer working, and you consequentially drop the pen. The more I think about it, however, the more I see that this does indeed add complexity, as well as simply not making sense. I was going to argue that the owners of the shardblades then cause the dead spren to cross the gap again to take form in the physical realm. That means, though, that a bond must be had for the sword to appear in the Physical realm, but we know that the swords also appear when the individual with which the sword is bonded to dies, and therefore the bond is broken. I suppose I was adding unnecessary complexity. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted November 6, 2014 Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 (edited) I'm sorry, I didn't quite make my point clear enough (rather I thought it had been clear but now realize it wasn't). My apologies. By pointing out that spren seem to be anchored in the Cognitive realm, I meant that their physical representation is them reaching across the boundaries of the realms. As such, when the spren dies, they are no longer actively working their "muscles" to reach across the gap, and revert back to the Cognitive realm. Similarly to how, if you were to die while holding a pen, upon death your muscles are no longer working, and you consequentially drop the pen. The more I think about it, however, the more I see that this does indeed add complexity, as well as simply not making sense. I was going to argue that the owners of the shardblades then cause the dead spren to cross the gap again to take form in the physical realm. That means, though, that a bond must be had for the sword to appear in the Physical realm, but we know that the swords also appear when the individual with which the sword is bonded to dies, and therefore the bond is broken. I suppose I was adding unnecessary complexity. Oh, I see what you mean now! That's a very interesting idea. It might not be correct for Shardblades, but it does seem like there's something to build on there. Pattern pushes himself through to the Physical and doesn't quite make it (though he scares Shallan while trying), and Shallan has to pull him through fully(? Perhaps he's not fully in, though it seems likely) with a drawing. Shallan also seems to have to 'force' herself half-way into Shadesmar, but then has to be careful that she isn't pulled all the way in (because of how dangerous it is). But she's still in the Physical, even if an "image" of her is projected into the Cognitive. I can definitely see how this could potentially apply to spren. Just the general idea of trying to figure out how Realm transitions work is interesting. An issue with the idea that the Shardblade just turns into a zombie spren in the Physical is that the owner can't see them, despite there being a strong bond to the spren. (It's also possible the zombie spren float inside the person, so they wouldn't be seen anyways.) I think the idea of them being in the Cognitive doesn't work and adds things that don't need to be added, along with the issues you raise, but you've definitely given me something to think on there. Edited November 6, 2014 by Moogle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaze1616 Posted November 6, 2014 Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 Oh, I see what you mean now! That's a very interesting idea. It might not be correct for Shardblades, but it does seem like there's something to build on there. Pattern pushes himself through to the Physical and doesn't quite make it (though he scares Shallan while trying), and Shallan has to pull him through fully(? Perhaps he's not fully in, though it seems likely) with a drawing. Shallan also seems to have to 'force' herself half-way into Shadesmar, but then has to be careful that she isn't pulled all the way in (because of how dangerous it is). But she's still in the Physical, even if an "image" of her is projected into the Cognitive. I can definitely see how this could potentially apply to spren. Just the general idea of trying to figure out how Realm transitions work is interesting. An issue with the idea that the Shardblade just turns into a zombie spren in the Physical is that the owner can't see them, despite there being a strong bond to the spren. (It's also possible the zombie spren float inside the person, so they wouldn't be seen anyways.) I think the idea of them being in the Cognitive doesn't work and adds things that don't need to be added, along with the issues you raise, but you've definitely given me something to think on there. I definitely think that the Radiant spren that manifest in the physical realm are definitely "stretching" the void, as is evident by Pattern being in both. This is further supported when Shallan manages to be both in the Cognitive Realm and the Physical Realm at the same time on the beach. I also feel that Syl provides some evidence for this, as her body, though translucent, is somewhat tangible. She is capable of applying a physical force, but the force is very limited, and very light. I don't think she's ever done more than caused a breeze, and had a very light weight when situating herself on Kaladin. This points to the possibility that though she has "crossed the void," she has not moved completely, for if she had moved completely, one would think she should have a more tangible presence. As an aside, why do you think the Shardblades merely turn invisible when dismissed? Not all spren seem capable, as the one Cryptic we have seen so far cannot make himself invisible. It is never explicitly stated that Pattern can't do it, but he never does. Meanwhile Syl and Jasnah's spren both make heavy use of the feature. It stands to reason that Cryptics simply cannot do so, and thus the Shardblades that are Cryptic corpses should not be capable of doing so either, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the winter system Posted November 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 How did the conversation turn from about Nightblood into about spren? We might want to move this onto the Stormlight Archive forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaze1616 Posted November 6, 2014 Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 (edited) How did the conversation turn from about Nightblood into about spren? We might want to move this onto the Stormlight Archive forum. I agree, and am making a post now. Edit: New thread is here. Edited November 6, 2014 by Blaze1616 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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