Oathgate Sprens - Corrupted? Enlightened? Indoctrinated? Educated?

[Michael Portz he/him]

Well ... its already hinted at in the text, that there are different point of views whether the oathgate sirens sprens are corrupted, enlightened or just educated by Sja-anat. Interestingly their statement

Quote

“I have made my decision. So has my companion. We are ready for freedom.”

co-aligns with a famous speech by Nelson Mandela 

Quote

 

Erkunden

 

Nelson Mandela used the phrase “we are ready for freedom” in a speech he delivered on February 11, 1990, the day he was released from prison after 27 years. This speech marked a significant moment in South African history as it symbolized the beginning of the end of apartheid and the start of a new era of freedom and democracy¹².

What do you think?

Edited September 12, 2024 by Michael Portz
Typo

[Kfish]

The books have been building towards a more nuanced conflict with neither side being truly good or evil since Oathbringer and Sja-Anat has been a central figure in that. As much as corrupted is being used by our main characters, it seems clear that it's closer to enlightened. 

 

As for their freedom, I think Sja-Anat is giving them more ability to FEEL which helps them decide when to uphold oaths and when not to whereas before the had to say no or yes based solely on past oaths.

[The Sovereign]

Quote

I will make you free - Paalm (Shadows of Self)

Autonomy may be interfering on Roshar via Sja-Anat.

[+Bzhydack he/him]

1 hour ago, The Sovereign said:

Autonomy may be interfering on Roshar via Sja-Anat.

This reminded me of my old theory, it was that there is Avatar of Autonomy in Rosharan System, on Ashyn being more specific. Is a little outdated, but I like it:

It cant be the same as Sia-Anat, but why assume there can be only one Avatar of Autonomy in the System?

[bmcclure7]

8 hours ago, Michael Portz said:

Well ... its already hinted at in the text, that there are different point of views whether the oathgate sirens are corrupted, enlightened or just educated by Sja-anat. Interestingly their statement

co-aligns with a famous speech by Nelson Mandela 

What do you think?

I wouldn’t call them educated because for she doesn’t educate them she changes them on a fundamental level you can call that enlightened or corrupted depending on whether you think the changes is good or bad but you can’t call mere education

[Michael Portz he/him]

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

I wouldn’t call them educated because for she doesn’t educate them she changes them on a fundamental level you can call that enlightened or corrupted depending on whether you think the changes is good or bad but you can’t call mere education

Naa, that's the point I wanted to make: Is it really something about Connection, Identity or corruption? Or does she only TALK to them and convinces them? I mean, what the spren actually SAY, sounds just like Russian revolutionaries out of old Hollywood comedies, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninotchka 

[bmcclure7]

47 minutes ago, Michael Portz said:

Naa, that's the point I wanted to make: Is it really something about Connection, Identity or corruption? Or does she only TALK to them and convinces them? I mean, what the spren actually SAY, sounds just like Russian revolutionaries out of old Hollywood comedies, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninotchka 

We know she does more than that. We know that she changes them. Because their bodies fundamentally change. After being corrupted. They are no longer considered to be the other the same type of spren as they were before. Just look how Rinarin Spren is physically different from a mistspren enough that you can see the difference. 
 

What is happening if she’s fundamentally changing their natures which results in changing their minds. Remember that spren are not human. it takes more than just talking to them to get them to change their minds. You have to change them on a fundamental level . Additionally They don’t necessarily want or need the same things human want or needs. Things like freedom are not necessarily something spren want or understand depending on the type of Spren. it’s unlikely that the spren ever thought about freedom until after they were altered by the unmade. 

[Windrunner22]

30 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

What is happening if she’s fundamentally changing their natures which results in changing their minds. Remember that spren are not human. it takes more than just talking to them to get them to change their minds. You have to change them on a fundamental level . Additionally They don’t necessarily want or need the same things human want or needs. Things like freedom are not necessarily something spren want or understand depending on the type of Spren. it’s unlikely that the spren ever thought about freedom until after they were altered by the unmade. 

I agree that she is changing them and I think it has something to do with Connection, but I really think you are underestimating the spren here. I don't think its fair to say they don't want or understand freedom or other human concepts. In Shadesmar we see full on spren civilization. We see spren cities, spren shopkeepers (indicating a spren economy), spren sailors, spren court proceedings, etc... We see spren want/understand entrepreneurship and naval navigation so its hard for me to believe they couldn't want or understand freedom.

I also think there is a general theme that the "humanity" or "person-ness" of the spren is underestimated (think Maya WE.CHOSE.), and we are seeing it explored through Syl. In the previews we learn that she wants to be a scribe. Did she have to be changed on a fundamental level to want to be a scribe? She is still honorspren is she not?

[bmcclure7]

41 minutes ago, Windrunner22 said:

I agree that she is changing them and I think it has something to do with Connection, but I really think you are underestimating the spren here. I don't think its fair to say they don't want or understand freedom or other human concepts. In Shadesmar we see full on spren civilization. We see spren cities, spren shopkeepers (indicating a spren economy), spren sailors, spren court proceedings, etc... We see spren want/understand entrepreneurship and naval navigation so its hard for me to believe they couldn't want or understand freedom.

I also think there is a general theme that the "humanity" or "person-ness" of the spren is underestimated (think Maya WE.CHOSE.), and we are seeing it explored through Syl. In the previews we learn that she wants to be a scribe. Did she have to be changed on a fundamental level to want to be a scribe? She is still honorspren is she not?

As in said it depends on the Spren type. 
 

remeber Spren ARE NOT HUMAN they are living ideas. nevagation and enterprise does not mean that they think like humans 

syl and others have a bond with humans with as we have seen with the storm father changes them into more human. 
 

So YES she did change on a fundamental level because of the bond same with the stormfather.
 

 

[The Stick]

Another thing to be noted is the very nature of spren and the CR, which Brandon based off the Theory of the Forms. I would say that she changes the very form (spiritual ideal) of the spren, then even their physical forms change to match (Glys). But we know that spren are also living ideas, as said above. I guess a possibility is that Sja-Anat could just do drastically change people's perceptions of the spren that they themselves change.

[Windrunner22]

52 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

As in said it depends on the Spren type. 
 

remeber Spren ARE NOT HUMAN they are living ideas. nevagation and enterprise does not mean that they think like humans 

syl and others have a bond with humans with as we have seen with the storm father changes them into more human. 
 

So YES she did change on a fundamental level because of the bond same with the stormfather.
 

 

Navigation by boat specifically and enterprise are two characteristics that I think of as human. On real world Earth we are the only species to do so, but I get that what you are saying that spren who do this might not necessarily be thinking like a human. 
 

Talk me through Notum, an unbonded spren, for my benefit though. Notum wants to get his job back as a captain/sailor on the bead ocean. Does he not seek freedom in this way? Freedom to sail? Would he not be upset to never sail again?

 

I get he might not think of freedom the same way as humans but why can’t he think of freedom in a spren way? He thinks does he not? He has no bond to change him. Would it be better to think of him as a human idea of an honorable sailor? They may be ideas but they are also alive. They have personalities and make individual choices. I think you underestimate their agency, but time will tell.  

Edited September 10, 2024 by Windrunner22

[The Stick]

56 minutes ago, Windrunner22 said:

Navigation by boat specifically and enterprise are two characteristics that I think of as human. On real world Earth we are the only species to do so, but I get that what you are saying that spren who do this might not necessarily be thinking like a human. 
 

Talk me through Notum, an unbonded spren, for my benefit though. Notum wants to get his job back as a captain/sailor on the bead ocean. Does he not seek freedom in this way? Freedom to sail? Would he not be upset to never sail again?

 

I get he might not think of freedom the same way as humans but why can’t he think of freedom in a spren way? He thinks does he not? He has no bond to change him. Would it be better to think of him as a human idea of an honorable sailor? They may be ideas but they are also alive. They have personalities and make individual choices. I think you underestimate their agency, but time will tell.  

I think that you might overestimate spren agency. We know that all spren are derived from the Shards, or perhaps Adonalsium with the Wind and whatnot. Regardless, we know that the investiture of a Shard is completely dominated by its Intent. This will eventually bind even the Vessel. I would say that spren have freedom within some range, but not enough freedom to do something against their fundamental Shard-derived Intent.

[jamskinner]

9 minutes ago, The Stick said:

I think that you might overestimate spren agency. We know that all spren are derived from the Shards, or perhaps Adonalsium with the Wind and whatnot. Regardless, we know that the investiture of a Shard is completely dominated by its Intent. This will eventually bind even the Vessel. I would say that spren have freedom within some range, but not enough freedom to do something against their fundamental Shard-derived Intent.

You didn’t address any of the points they brought up.  Not much of a discussion to just ignore them.

[Miyabi She/Her]

9 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

This reminded me of my old theory, it was that there is Avatar of Autonomy in Rosharan System, on Ashyn being more specific. Is a little outdated, but I like it:

It cant be the same as Sia-Anat, but why assume there can be only one Avatar of Autonomy in the System?

Based on what we've seen of her, putting more than one Avatar in a location would be out of character. Also, we only see Avatars where there aren't other Shards in play. At least so far. 

[Windrunner22]

2 hours ago, The Stick said:

I think that you might overestimate spren agency. We know that all spren are derived from the Shards, or perhaps Adonalsium with the Wind and whatnot. Regardless, we know that the investiture of a Shard is completely dominated by its Intent. This will eventually bind even the Vessel. I would say that spren have freedom within some range, but not enough freedom to do something against their fundamental Shard-derived Intent.

Maybe I got a little sidetracked by the idea of freedom specifically, but here is a re-focus. 
 

Is Syl wanting to be a scribe any different from Notum wanting to be a sailor? Is an Oathgate spren wanting freedom any different from the desires of Syl/Notum?

I think not. I think some Oathgate spren genuinely want to be free after being abandoned, neglected, and forgotten. I think they make a legitimate choice to be Enlightened/Corrupted. Some of the Oathgate spren may choose to remain the same too, but I think Sja-Anat is genuinely offering a choice now after her experience with R-Odium forcing her to do it at the Kholinar Oathgate. 

[The Stick]

9 minutes ago, Windrunner22 said:

Maybe I got a little sidetracked by the idea of freedom specifically, but here is a re-focus. 
 

Is Syl wanting to be a scribe any different from Notum wanting to be a sailor? Is an Oathgate spren wanting freedom any different from the desires of Syl/Notum?

I think not. I think some Oathgate spren genuinely want to be free after being abandoned, neglected, and forgotten. I think they make a legitimate choice to be Enlightened/Corrupted. Some of the Oathgate spren may choose to remain the same too, but I think Sja-Anat is genuinely offering a choice now after her experience with R-Odium forcing her to do it at the Kholinar Oathgate. 

What I would find to be interesting with this is why the Oathgate spren chose their state of life to begin with, and if the pact was more focused with Honor, Cultivation, or both. I would say it is fair that this is a new age for spren, and then having a choice for freedom from Sja-Anat. However, I do believe that none of these spren have the ability to act against an oath made, which would make me believe that a Radiant spren leaving their Radiant may render them similar to a deadeye. However, I would say that these barriers can be removed by Sja-Anat's enlightenment. My primary question is why the Oathgate spren chose this fate to begin with, and what changed them, as well as the minds of all of these spren after millennia. We know that the change in Odium's vessel led to the Wind regaining her voice, so I think this could also be leading to regular spren becoming far more open to change. This leads me to my ultimate point, which is that this may be a cause of collapse for the Radiants. It was said in the Eila Steele that Sja-Anat was most feared, and I think that this is because she can grant spren greater freedoms to choose, and violate their fundamental nature of Honor's oaths. She could allow spren previously bound to Radiants who could not abandon the bond without conflicting with their innate intent to leave their bonds. 

[teknopathetic he/him]

I wondr if there was some coercion involved? Like, the spren felt obligated to agree.

Or perhaps they didnt realize that it would be FOREVER. Much like with what happened to the heralds. Honour's oaths are too much to bear, even for a spren. 

Edited September 11, 2024 by teknopathetic

[bmcclure7]

On 9/10/2024 at 6:22 PM, Windrunner22 said:

Navigation by boat specifically and enterprise are two characteristics that I think of as human. On real world Earth we are the only species to do so, but I get that what you are saying that spren who do this might not necessarily be thinking like a human. 
 

Talk me through Notum, an unbonded spren, for my benefit though. Notum wants to get his job back as a captain/sailor on the bead ocean. Does he not seek freedom in this way? Freedom to sail? Would he not be upset to never sail again?

 

I get he might not think of freedom the same way as humans but why can’t he think of freedom in a spren way? He thinks does he not? He has no bond to change him. Would it be better to think of him as a human idea of an honorable sailor? They may be ideas but they are also alive. They have personalities and make individual choices. I think you underestimate their agency, but time will tell.  

As I said it varies by spren type. Honor spren look the most human so we shouldn’t be surprised that they act for the most human.

Let us contrast honor spren with oath gates spren. The gate Spren have stood silently at their post for thousands of years. That right there should tell you that they have a different psychology than humans. no human could have done that even if you were immortal. Eventually, the boredom would get to him. 
 

If the oath gate spren or psychologically any anywhere close to human there would be no oath gates. However the Spren stood silently at their post without complaints without and without speaking about choice or freedom.

Do you really think it’s possible for humans to go thousands of years out even contemplating the idea of being free. Very fact that they find freedom appealing now when they didn’t before demonstrates that they have been changed on a fundamental level so that freedom is now appealing to them. 

[Rorzikel]

9 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

As I said it varies by spren type. Honor spren look the most human so we shouldn’t be surprised that they act for the most human.

Let us contrast honor spren with oath gates spren. The gate Spren have stood silently at their post for thousands of years. That right there should tell you that they have a different psychology than humans. no human could have done that even if you were immortal. Eventually, the boredom would get to him. 
 

If the oath gate spren or psychologically any anywhere close to human there would be no oath gates. However the Spren stood silently at their post without complaints without and without speaking about choice or freedom.

Do you really think it’s possible for humans to go thousands of years out even contemplating the idea of being free. Very fact that they find freedom appealing now when they didn’t before demonstrates that they have been changed on a fundamental level so that freedom is now appealing to them. 

Counterpoint: Taln

[bmcclure7]

7 hours ago, Rorzikel said:

Counterpoint: Taln

Counterpoint, how exactly?

[Rorzikel]

11 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Counterpoint, how exactly?

You’ve formed your argument on the foundation of nothing similar to human psychology could hold to that oath for thousand of years, and that must mean that they couldn’t have previously thought of freedom. We have a canon example of an extremely human-like mind (a cognitive shadow) that just spent 4,000 years being tortured.  The Oathgates had to only deal with boredom and loneliness.

Within Sanderson’s canon, we therefore see that human psychology isn’t a disqualifier for these feats.

[teknopathetic he/him]

Syl says that many spren actually do change, so one could assume the oathgates are thinking differently after 4000 years of loneliness and neglect. 

[bmcclure7]

57 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Syl says that many spren actually do change, so one could assume the oathgates are thinking differently after 4000 years of loneliness and neglect. 

They changed yes but not for no reason. To change, they must be changed. Or do you honestly believe that the unmade just went and talked to them?
 

1 hour ago, Rorzikel said:

You’ve formed your argument on the foundation of nothing similar to human psychology could hold to that oath for thousand of years, and that must mean that they couldn’t have previously thought of freedom. We have a canon example of an extremely human-like mind (a cognitive shadow) that just spent 4,000 years being tortured.  The Oathgates had to only deal with boredom and loneliness.

Within Sanderson’s canon, we therefore see that human psychology isn’t a disqualifier for these feats.

Not an example at all, for 1 the Harolds are not human. Even the spren consider them Spren. And even if they were, I would point out the nine other Harold as a counterpoint. 

Edited September 13, 2024 by bmcclure7

[Windrunner22]

On 9/12/2024 at 8:56 AM, bmcclure7 said:

As I said it varies by spren type. Honor spren look the most human so we shouldn’t be surprised that they act for the most human.

Let us contrast honor spren with oath gates spren. The gate Spren have stood silently at their post for thousands of years. That right there should tell you that they have a different psychology than humans. no human could have done that even if you were immortal. Eventually, the boredom would get to him. 
 

If the oath gate spren or psychologically any anywhere close to human there would be no oath gates. However the Spren stood silently at their post without complaints without and without speaking about choice or freedom.

Do you really think it’s possible for humans to go thousands of years out even contemplating the idea of being free. Very fact that they find freedom appealing now when they didn’t before demonstrates that they have been changed on a fundamental level so that freedom is now appealing to them. 

How they look has nothing to do with whether or not they are a "person". If it varies then it is certainly a variation between intelligent/bondable spren and those types who cannot form a Nahel bond. All radiant spren capable of a Nahel bond have their own personalities, thoughts, opinions, emotions, fears, desires, and they make their own individual choices. Honorspren, inkspren, and Cryptics alike. This is what makes them a "person" to me. Pattern certainly demonstrates these characteristics even as a Cryptic. In WOR ch.3 Jasnah tells Shallan that the Cryptics control one of the greater cites in Shadesmar. They even came up with the word Cryptic as a preferred name for themselves. Just because they are super into lies, math, patterns, etc.. does not make them less of a “person” to me. Heck, even mostly deadeyed Maya has her own personality, thoughts/opinions/emotions (preview ch.3 she never thought much of Kelek) (preview ch.7 it would be wonderful to help the lost blades), and clearly she has made her own choices (WE.CHOSE.). 

You don't know that they have not contemplated freedom in the past 1000 years either. You don’t know they were silent or that they didn’t want to complain to somebody. Maybe they would need a bondsmith to let them out. It could be like what The Stick mentioned and they swore an oath to stay, and can’t act against that oath. So inkspren remain at their Oathagte post for 1000s of years, how does that remove their personality? how does that eliminate their ability to think? Does that mean they have no opinions, emotions, fears, or desires? They still make choices as to who they allow to pass through the Oathgate. Not even being a deadeye Blade for 1000s of years could remove Maya’s personality, ability to think, thoughts, emotions, etc… so I fail to see how staying at the Oathgate would do so to the inkspren.

[Rorzikel]

30 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Not an example at all, for 1 the Harolds are not human. Even the spren consider them Spren. And even if they were, I would point out the nine other Harold as a counterpoint. 

Either the Heralds are not human and are spren (in which case they and the Inkspren are comparable as sapient investiture) or they do count as human and inhumanity isn't necessary to endure milennia of difficult ordeals. Both interpretations of the Heralds as 1) non-human or 2) human-like have to grapple with reconciling their nature and their actions.

If heralds are nothing more than men and women, then men and women can bear extraordinary pain and suffering while still being capable of wanting release, otherwise they couldn't break or want to break. If the heralds are spren, then they aren't an argument against spren having the same complex reality. The assignment of humanlike psychology cannot in the Cosmere be a reason that someone can't do what the Oathgate spren did, otherwise the entire plot falls apart.