Question on the Yoki-Hijo

[QuaN7umVo1D]

So was reading Yumi and the Nightmare Painter recently, and this question popped in my head:

If the yoki-hijo are soo Invested shouldn't they glow?

There is a part in the book where:

Spoiler

Design says that Yumi is as Invested as an Elantrian.

As far as I have seen in other novels, beings who are Invested that much usually exhibit some sort of effect on colors or outright glow. Some examples:

Spoiler

Elantrian's glow
The God Emperor's color distortion of white objects around him
Nightblood's deepening of the colors around him

 Would love to hear some thoughts on this

Edited August 21, 2024 by QuaN7umVo1D

[Treamayne]

34 minutes ago, QuaN7umVo1D said:

So was reading Yumi and the Nightmare Painter recently, and this question popped in my head:

If the yoki-hijo are soo Invested shouldn't they glow?

There is a part in the book where:

  Hide contents

Design says that Yumi is as Invested as an Elantrian.

As far as I have seen in other novels, beings who are Invested that much usually exhibit some sort of effect on colors or outright glow. Some examples (Elantris and Warbreaker Spoilers):

  Hide contents

Elantrian's glow
The God Emperor's color distortion of white objects around him
Nightblood's deepening of the colors around him

 Would love to hear some thoughts on this

I think this has less to do with the quantity of Investiture, and more with it's location. Short answer - your examples are investiture in the Physical Realm (or Cognitive pulled through to the Physical) rather than being primarily Invested in the Spiritweb.

More detail - I don't know if you have yet finished the book, so I will spoiler this (multiple spoilers - Yumi, Elantris, M:SH, and SA):

Spoiler

Since Yumi is a Cognitive Shadow Splinter, she is closer to the Heralds and Returned than to an Elantrian (in mechanic). Elantrians glow because the Dor is in the Cognitive Realm, and the Shaod makes a permanent gate for the Dor to sustain their bodies. This does not apply. Returned are Cognitive Shadows in thier true corpse - so this also does not apply. Breath Aura is due to the nature of Breaths existing in the Physical Realm and the way they are passed (note, Stormlight in the physical realm also makes a Radiant glow). Yumi is a Cognitive Shadow in a shell of investiture (like the Heralds) and she is a Splinter (like a Spren) but that Splinter is in her Spiritweb, not the Cognitive or Physical Realm - therefore no Glow. 

At least that is our current understanding. Hope that helps.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, QuaN7umVo1D said:

So was reading Yumi and the Nightmare Painter recently, and this question popped in my head:

If the yoki-hijo are soo Invested shouldn't they glow?

There is a part in the book where:

  Hide contents

Design says that Yumi is as Invested as an Elantrian.

As far as I have seen in other novels, beings who are Invested that much usually exhibit some sort of effect on colors or outright glow. Some examples:

  Hide contents

Elantrian's glow
The God Emperor's color distortion of white objects around him
Nightblood's deepening of the colors around him

 Would love to hear some thoughts on this

Treamayne explained it very well already, I will add something from myself, including some WoBs. Warbreaker/Elantris spoilers:

Spoiler

All those examples are because of physical investiture. They "glow" because they hold physical investiture in their bodies - Elantrians are fed by Dor directly, while the God-King and Nightblood, who are both more or less similarly invested, have an incredible wealth of Breaths in them. Both the Dor and Breaths are physical investiture, held in their bodies. However the God-King and Nightblood are both extreme cases, which shouldn't be applied to Yumi - I highly doubt she's as invested as they are.

Yumi is invested in her spirit web. Her soul is so highly invested that she became a Cognitive Shadow. She doesn't hold physical investiture in her body, it's all in the Spiritual Realm. The direct glowing is caused by investiture leaking through imperfections of the human body, while the color aura is because of investiture itself - Yumi holds no physical investiture in her body, thus she doesn't glow and I'll talk more about that second point later.

SH and OB spoilers:

Spoiler

And it's comparable to Elantrians without Dor as well - we've seen Elantrians in SH who glow faintly and had to drink Dor to restore their glow, in OB Riino didn't glow at all (it might have been Lightweaving). This is because they were disconnected from the Dor and they didn't hold much Dor in their bodies. They would be still very highly invested, but because they have no physical investiture in their bodies, they don't glow. 

SH ch 5.2:

Quote

A different door into the room—one opposite him—slammed open, causing several guards to jump, then salute. The creature that entered seemed . . . well, mostly human. Wizened, dried up, the woman had puckered lips, a bald scalp, and strange silvery-dark skin. She glowed faintly with the same quiet blue-white light as the walls.
[...]
Inside, an entire group of the creatures sat in discussion. 
[...]
Curiously, the light from the walls was dimmer in the room. The effect was particularly noticeable near where one of the creatures was sitting or standing. It was like . . . they themselves were drawing in the light.

SH ch 5.3:

Quote

The ancients got out jars of light, drinking and restoring the luminance to their skin.

OB ch 97:

Quote

Inside, he saw an old Shin man—with furrowed, wrinkled skin and a completely bald head—sitting in a chair, reading by spherelight. A human? Kaladin couldn’t decide if that was a good sign or not. The old man began to turn a page in his book, then froze, looking up.

 

Another examples of highly invested beings that don't glow come from SH, Mistborn Era 2 and SA in general - Cognitive Shadows:

Spoiler

Heralds and Fused are all highly invested Cognitive Shadows and they don't glow at all. This is because it's all in their soul, and they only "glow," when they hold Stormlight. Fused and Singers don't glow, because they hold their Voidlight in their perfect gemhearts, which don't leak any light, thus their bodies don't glow even when they have Voidlight.

Kelsier in TLM looks like a normal person, just like Heralds and Fused do in SA. Even Vasher looks normally in both Warbreaker and SA, but this is because he actively suppresses his Divine Breath, which makes him not manifest the color aura around him or glow. 

However, it's worth noting that ANY investiture does produce a similar effect to the color aura of Breaths. A highly invested person like Yumi will deepen the colors around them and generate effects similar to Heightenings. This can be suppressed just like Vasher and Denth were doing it in Warbreaker, so it doesn't have to be visible at all (Yumi can do this subconsciously, because she doesn't understand her nature yet). But even if it is visible, it would be really hard to spot by someone who's not invested themselves and doesn't know what to look for.

WoBs:

Spoiler

Cheyenne Sedai

Given what happens at the end of the book, is Yumi immortal now? If not, does she age?

Brandon Sanderson

Her perception is going to influence this. She's going to need a small bit of power to persist, but she is so highly invested that it would take a very long time for that to be noticeable. Particularly because she's not even using that power. There's no out let for it. She's a Cognitive Shadow, much like the Heralds or Vasher, that is more self sustaining because of how highly she is invested. Imagine someone like Vasher with thousands of Breaths. You're just never going to notice. But her perception of herself will cause her to age. Probably not to age to the point that she dies though. Basically the answer is yes. You've got an immortal being running a noodle shop in a backwater corner of the Cosmere.

Shardcast Interview (July 30, 2023)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

I think there's a flaw in my understanding of Cognitive Shadows. I assume that... they would have more visibility into the Cognitive Realm, like a Herald would be able to see spren more easily, that kind of thing. Is that incorrect?

Brandon Sanderson

That is incorrect. A Cognitive Shadow simply means a copy of the Cognitive side made by a deep amount of Investiture. And everybody has a Cognitive side. Basically it's a fake soul. Or, fake is the wrong term. Fake is the wrong term. Even in-world they don't know if it's really them or not. It is Investiture has replaced the Investiture that is fleeing from them as they die, or enhancing it in some way to keep it around. So some Cognitive Shadows trapped on the Cognitive Realm are going to be-- have a lot of Cognitive-- I mean, they're there, right? But some Cognitive Shadows inhabiting a body in the same way that your mind inhabits your body, the way the cosmere works... So a Herald is going to feel like they are alive just like-- but their soul has been somehow transformed. It's not really transformed, it's been reproduced or copied by an injection of Investiture...

And I'll say for the purpose of the recordings, I haven't canonized any of that terminology that I just used about Cognitive Shadows. I'm just talking about it, I'm not necessarily saying that this is how you are supposed to refer to it. You can refer to it however you want. I've often used the metaphor of how fossils get made. When a fossil is made there is a pattern and it is slowly replaced with another substance that is stronger and more endurant, and has the shape of it, but is it still the bone? When you have a fossil bone is it the dinosaur bone? In most cases no, but yes. It's the ship of Theseus sort of thing again. Is this the bone or is it not? Is this the soul? Is this the person or is it not? That's the same sort of thing is happening with Cognitive Shadows. And it's happening on all three Realms to an extent, though of course the body is not. The body stays. It's happening on two Realms. It's happening Spiritually, mostly Cognitively.

Orem signing (March 10, 2018)

SA WoB:

Spoiler

mathota123

Does being filled with Stormlight make your skin glow, or are they just leaking mist which is glowing and not glowing themselves?

Brandon Sanderson

The glowing is from the Stormlight, which leaks from the skin. Even any glowing you think is coming from the skin is actually from the Stormlight leaking out.

[...]

Stormlight Three Update #4 (Oct. 4, 2016)

SA&Elantris WoB:

Spoiler

Blaze1616

What leaks out of Elantrians, would it be considered similar to, for example, stormlight leaking, or...?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, yeah you could totally say that.

Shadows of Self Lansing signing (Oct. 13, 2015)

SA&Elantris WoB:

Spoiler

Argent

If we are looking at very highly Invested beings, we have Yumi, and we are told that she is more Invested than Elantrians, more Invested than Returned. Let's compare Yumi, Elantrians, and Heralds. Who is most Invested, who is least Invested?

Brandon Sanderson

Of those, probably Heralds... The thing is, the Heralds varied. How in tune and aligned they are with their oaths, their promise... It wasn't Oaths, but they did promise certain things when they became Heralds. It was pre Knights Radiants, it's not as formalized as Oaths. How in line with the power of Honor, how in line with the kind of natural Investiture of Roshar--which is separate from Honor, Cultivation and Odium--are they, how can they draw upon that. I will call them the least of the three though.

Argent

So Heralds on the bottom, and Yumi on top, and Elantrians in the middle?

Brandon Sanderson

Yumi on top, but Yumi's very close to an Elantrian. They're within the same conversation. And most of the yoki-hijo were traditionally in the past less, they've gained Investiture over time.

Shardcast Interview (July 30, 2023)

Warbreaker WoB:

Spoiler

Mark

It was said throughout the book that you cannot just give some of your breath, but must give all of it. Perhaps I'm simply forgetting part of the book where this changes, but wouldn't Vasher have to give his Returned breath along with his others?

Brandon Sanderson

[...]

Vasher has learned to suppress his Returned Breath. When it's suppressed, it's as if it doesn't exist to him. He's Invested it into a place within himself, much like you can Invest your Breaths into a shirt, and when he gives away the rest of his Breaths, he doesn't give that one away. He could split off others of his Breaths if he wanted to—he's learned to do that, so that he could give a few Breaths and not all. It's just a matter of practicing as long as he has. But even people who aren't as practiced as him do it all the time when they Invest an object with not all of their Breath but just enough to bring it to life

Goodreads Fantasy Book Discussion Warbreaker Q&A (Jan. 18, 2010)

SA WoB:

Spoiler

tskyeguye

From Rysn's observations in the epilogue, it seems like she has a lot of the same aspects of a Fifth Heightening/Returned at the least. Is this because her Dawnshard is particularly connected to Endowment or because the effects of a certain level of Investment result in similar effects?

Brandon Sanderson

The latter.

Skrimyt

Interesting. So are actively Surgebinding Radiants or metal-burning Allomancers just not Invested enough to gain those passive effects, or do they not experience perfect pitch/color/etc. because their Investiture is just not as tightly bound to their Spiritweb as Endowment's Breaths or a Dawnshard would be?

Brandon Sanderson

Be aware that the two groups you mention don't generally hold much Investiture themselves, at least not in large quantities over time. More in Surgebinding. Almost none in Allomancy.

But RAFO to specifics.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020)

SA WoB:

Spoiler

mooglefrooglian

Why is Hoid’s color aura from his Breaths not noticed by anyone on Roshar? Are the characters just not used to noticing that sort of thing, or does he not have one?

Brandon Sanderson

There are a mixture of reasons. Not the least is Hoid's control over Investiture.

uchoo786

Would someone with Breath be able to notice his aura on Roshar? E.g. Vasher?

Brandon Sanderson

Various methods of detecting Investiture would still work, depending on how good a job Hoid is doing of suppressing his.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 6, 2015)