Would you join Hoid's cause?

[SilverShard]

Hoid is my favorite character in the Cosmere, but I don't think he is a good guy...at all. He's selfish, cunning, and tricky. I think he is ultimately only out for himself in the Cosmere, but he does have a larger goal. Would you want to help Hoid on purpose or do you think the Cosmere would be better off without him? 

[CtrlAltDepressed]

There is a wob that Brandon would most likely not help Hoid if he were in the cosmere, so, bearing that in mind, I would say no. I would not help him. Knowing what I know, I am far more likely to end up extremely negatively effected by interacting with hoid than changing anything for the better.

 

Personally I think hoid is a lot like Kelsier. They see themselves as good people but will do whatever they need to in order to accomplish their goals. Hoid is complicated, but I think ultimately his intentions are good. 

 

I have no evidence for this but I think Hoids goal is to reform Adonalsium, whatever that means. I think Adonalsium may not have been as benevolent as one might assume. As we have seen with the shards, the power does not necessitate innate goodness or the inability to make mistakes.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

6 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

I have no evidence for this but I think Hoids goal is to reform Adonalsium, whatever that means. I think Adonalsium may not have been as benevolent as one might assume. As we have seen with the shards, the power does not necessitate innate goodness or the inability to make mistakes.

I'd see it as stupid to create your own overlord. If I may speculate I think the fundamental conflict of the Cosmere will be between Reuniters and Shatterers, the latter wanting to bring the Shattering to its logical conclusion.

[KelsierFortnite he/him]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

I'd see it as stupid to create your own overlord. If I may speculate I think the fundamental conflict of the Cosmere will be between Reuniters and Shatterers, the latter wanting to bring the Shattering to its logical conclusion.

In one of the Stormlight books, Hoid says this right after namedropping Adonalsium to Dalinar

Spoiler

Nonsense. Balderdash. Figgldygrak. Isn't it odd that gibberish words are often the sounds of other words, cut up and dismembered, then stitched into something like them--yet wholly unlike them at the same time?

I wonder if you could do that to a man. Pull him apart, emotion by emotion, bit by bit, bloody chunk by bloody chunk. Then combine them back together into something else, like a Dysian Aimian. If you do put a man together like that, Dalinar, be sure to name him Gibberish, after me. Or perhaps Gibletish.

I think Hoid seems to be wondering whether Adonalsium could be reforged.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

6 minutes ago, KelsierFortnite said:

I think Hoid seems to be wondering whether Adonalsium could be reforged.

It seems to me that Hoid, being one of the original 16, ought to know the answer to that question. This sounds more like wondering what the consequences would be and, thereby, whether this should be done. Looking at Hoid I would tend to dismiss the idea that they shattered Adonalsium only for the power. If they had a good reason, undoing what they did isa bad idea all things being equal.

 

Or alternatively, he is talking about Honor.

[alder24]

13 hours ago, SilverShard said:

Hoid is my favorite character in the Cosmere, but I don't think he is a good guy...at all. He's selfish, cunning, and tricky. I think he is ultimately only out for himself in the Cosmere, but he does have a larger goal. Would you want to help Hoid on purpose or do you think the Cosmere would be better off without him? 

No, because I have no storming idea what his goal is! How can I join him if I don't know what he plans? He said that he would sacrifice all of Roshar if that means achieving his goals, 100 million people - this cost is too great, that's another no from me. I can help him keep Odium imprisoned in a way that would not cause eternal war on Roshar, or destroy the planet, but I won't join him - we cooperate, keep him in check and then part our way. But that's not Hoid's ultimate plan, that’s just a sidequest. Nobody knows what he wants. I need to know to decide. 

If Hoid wants to restore Adonalsium, something that many on this forum believed to be very likely, then I want to know what would be the consequences of this action. Cosmere right now seems more or less stable, to recombine Adonalsium you would need to collect all Shards - that means war, that means killing all current Vessels, that would be devastating. Would Adonalsium be restored or would some other entity be created? Would a Vessel be needed, or would it be self-aware and conscious? If a Vessel is needed, who would it be? Hoid? Big no from me. And what would that new Adonalsium do after recreation? We don't know at all - he can just start killing all who opposed his rebirth (Roko's basilisk situation), or all that hold powers and knowledge that can be used against him, to prevent another Shattering - he doesn't have to be a good guy, he would hold all power, there is almost no force able to stop. Shards at least can be stopped by other Shards. We have no idea what a new Adonalsium would do, we have only a slight idea how much devastation and death would be needed to achieve that goal. Therefore I would not join him, I would side with the 17th Shard and Frost instead, to oppose Hoid.

[Returned he/him]

It depends on the alternatives, I guess. As others have mentioned, we don't know anything about Hoid's plans which makes it hard for me to get on board with them. But we also don't know anything about the reasons for the Shattering, conditions beforehand, what the participants wanted and how events diverged from those goals. Hoid is pretty ruthless, or at least he's willing to be to the extent that his constraints allow, but on the Cosmere scale some goals are probably worth that-- if there are only two possible outcomes, A and B, and A is 100 million dead while B is every single being in the Cosmere dead, then there is a pretty strong case that A is the way to go.

The big counterweight is that we know lots of smaller scale events are pretty bad (such as Ruin annihilating Scadrial and everyone on it, or Odium scouring Roshar clean of humans and extant spren) and Hoid opposes those. Again, we don't know anything about Hoid's real goals, but he's probably the most consistent "good guy" in the setting, both in opposing those horrible outcomes and also in showing compassion for people and trying to help their immediate circumstances, and so our imperfect information suggests that working with him is the best call we can make at any given moment. Hoid is clever enough and knowledgeable enough that I don't know if we can maintain any distinction between working with him and siding with him.

The severe lack of information makes it really hard to be confident in a choice in any direction. Hoid is willing to let Roshar burn to get what he needs, but am I willing to let Roshar burn just to be sure I don't get my hands dirty by siding with Hoid when that would be "bad"? Is that cost for trying to ensure my own moral purity better than, or even different from, Hoid's willingness to incur it in pursuit of whatever he's after? It would be a horrible position to be in, and Hoid's knowledge and cleverness mean that we (if we were characters in the setting) are not going to be able to know the whole picture, nor be sure that what we think we know is true and solidly positioned in the broader situations.

But Sanderson saying that he probably wouldn't is decisive, if cheating a bit. He knows everything we don't about all of this and can use that information to inform his decision, so if conditions aren't such that he would side with Hoid I probably shouldn't either.

Edited March 8, 2024 by Returned

[Leuthie]

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

It seems to me that Hoid, being one of the original 16, ought to know the answer to that question. This sounds more like wondering what the consequences would be and, thereby, whether this should be done. Looking at Hoid I would tend to dismiss the idea that they shattered Adonalsium only for the power. If they had a good reason, undoing what they did isa bad idea all things being equal.

 

Or alternatively, he is talking about Honor.

It was a red herring for Adonalsium. He's talking about Honor. Dalinar is was in the process of taking up the remains of Honor. The parallels make for a good red herring, but I don't see it as evidence that Hoid is looking to reform Adonalsium. I believe when the 16 (17?) were originally planning to kill Adonalsium, there were two choices: take up the Shards and act as keepers, or push the powers into something like what was done on Sel in the Cognitive Realm (this is where Rayse learned how to "permanently" destroy a Shard). I'm guessing Hoid was for the latter, seeing what would happen when even good people take up as much power as a Shard (Absolute power corrupting absolutely and all that). 

I further contend that Rayse and Hoid were friends and both on the same side in that debate. When they lost the argument and the others decided to pick up Shards, Hoid stuck to his guns and refused while Rayse put his plan of Hate into affect. 

All that pure speculation said, I'm not sure anyone is given the choice. He'll help me if it moves him toward his goal. He'll destroy me (my family, my country, my planet) if he's hindered. And I really don't know enough about his goals to know whether I'm helping or hindering, or even how I could do either should I be given a choice.

Edited March 8, 2024 by Leuthie

[+Oltux72 he/him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

I can help him keep Odium imprisoned in a way that would not cause eternal war on Roshar, or destroy the planet, but I won't join him - we cooperate, keep him in check and then part our way. But that's not Hoid's ultimate plan, that’s just a sidequest. Nobody knows what he wants. I need to know to decide.

If two Shards found no better way than the cycle of Desolations and one of them was splintered thereby, we must take the possibility that Hoid is correct and only those two alternatives exist, seriously.

Yet that does not change the fact that we do not actually know his goals, let alone his plans to achieve them.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

If Hoid wants to restore Adonalsium, something that many on this forum believed to be very likely, then I want to know what would be the consequences of this action.

Exactly. Yet, frankly, to create an uncontrolable power you need a very good reason.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Cosmere right now seems more or less stable, to recombine Adonalsium you would need to collect all Shards - that means war, that means killing all current Vessels, that would be devastating.

It isn't stable. Odium is going to break lose sooner or later. It is just a matter of time. Autonomy is expanding and duplicating herself while acting as the technological police. Harmony is going insane. Cultivation and Mercy are on very dubious paths.

The current era of stability is doomed. One might see Shards as warping the mind to follow a narrow Intent without other considerations. Basically taking up a Shard is kind of accepting brain damage in exchange for divine powers. The problem with that is obvious. It seems to me that the better solution, if it came to that, would be to splinter all Shards.

Personally, if I had to join anybody, it would be Kelsier, because his motivations are rational and understandable, albeit not very nice.

[Duxredux he/him]

Well.. TSM spoilers

Spoiler

If you've read it you know. Nomad has some pretty strong opinions on this topic, which probably ought to be considered by anyone considering personally involving themselves with Hoid.

Depends on when I'm living and where. Scadrial between the Catacendre and Era 2? Probably doesn't matter, I'll live a full life and be dead before anything world threatening happens to my people. On Roshar within the ten days before the contest of champions? That's a much different circumstance. Me personally, I'm not Invested enough or important enough for Hoid to take into consideration so I doubt I'd even have the opportunity. Now if the question is if Shallan, Dalinar, Jasnah, or Harmony should enlist in Hoid's cause? That's a much more nuanced question and it could be argued that he has set things up so he could try to recruit them if he so chose.

Until then, I want to hear both sides of the argument, with the assumption that I will not get the whole picture from Hoid. For example talking to Baon and Galladon who are pretty down to earth (Demoux less so) and we know they are tracking Hoid. We just don't know enough about the bigger picture as seen by the world hoppers.

[Highprince10 he/him]

I think I would support Hoid's quest while I don't even know what it is. Hoid is the only character we have gotten to know who has been trying to do something and hasn't had his will changed by a shard. The only characters as old as Hoid are dragons and shards. The only dragon we have really seen is Frost how is not getting involved and the shards are changed by the intent of their shard. Hoid obviously has some big goals but I think we have seen he does care about people as much as he tries not to. I think I would try to help Hoid in his quest. I think no character has seen more of all the worlds in the Cosmere or had more exerinces then Hoid so he should be able to make a plan to reach his goal. Hoid's willingness to give up roshar was all about containing Odium. I think he was only trying to limit the damage because if Odium leaves Roshar the whole Cosmere will suffer.

[alder24]

22 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

If two Shards found no better way than the cycle of Desolations and one of them was splintered thereby, we must take the possibility that Hoid is correct and only those two alternatives exist, seriously.

Cultivation has found a new way (and I know it won't turn out to be something good). Other alternatives always exist. You can try to gather all 4 Dawnshard and just Splinter Odium as the last resort.

24 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

It isn't stable. Odium is going to break lose sooner or later. It is just a matter of time. Autonomy is expanding and duplicating herself while acting as the technological police. Harmony is going insane. Cultivation and Mercy are on very dubious paths.

More or less stable. The situation has not changed in the last 7000 years or so. It's not ideal, that's true, Odium is a problem, others are making problems, but this isn't nearly as bad as a Cosmere wide war with Shards being killed left and right. 

26 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The current era of stability is doomed. One might see Shards as warping the mind to follow a narrow Intent without other considerations. Basically taking up a Shard is kind of accepting brain damage in exchange for divine powers. The problem with that is obvious. It seems to me that the better solution, if it came to that, would be to splinter all Shards.

I would not be surprised if one side in the future conflict might propose a solution to just Splinter all Shards to tiny pieces, so no mortal could ever hold powers of gods. Mortals should not be gods. 

27 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Personally, if I had to join anybody, it would be Kelsier, because his motivations are rational and understandable, albeit not very nice.

What are Kelsier's goals? To protect Scadrial at whatever cost it takes. And yet there was one price he was not willing to pay - try to warn the government or Harmony about Set's plans. Would Kelsier destroy Taldain and all who live there, if it meant the end of Autonomy's attempt to conquer Scadrial? If the answer is yes, I would not want to join him. Why only Scadrial deserves to be protected, but other places not?

Kelsier is a Cognitive Shadow, over time he will become obsessed with his goal like a spren, his judgment will be blurred. He's not a "safe" person to follow, even if his goals are noble, he achieves them by spilling blood. But if I were to choose between Hoid or Kelsier, I think I would choose Kelsier. He is more charismatic, more understandable, more open, with trust being the foundation of his crew - and he won't insult you every morning. Hoid is just the opposite.

 

34 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Me personally, I'm not Invested enough or important enough for Hoid to take into consideration so I doubt I'd even have the opportunity.

Sigzil wasn't important nor invested and yet was chosen as Hoid's apprentice. Let's just assume we have the opportunity for the sake of argument.