Hoid as Dalinar's champion

[KnightoftheCosmere]

I was thinking the other day about the contest of champions and who the champion would be. While I strongly doubt this is going to happen Hoid seems like an obvious choice for champion. The terms specify the contest is a fight for the death, and Hoid is basically immortal. I'm pretty sure the only thing on Roshar that could harm him would be Nightblood, as as long as Odium's champion doesn't have that, Dalinar wins because his champion isn't defeated. 

EDIT: I know Hoid is incapable of hurting people, but the point is that he can't be defeated.

Edited July 28, 2023 by KnightoftheCosmere

[Stormgate he/him]

The only problem is that, due to Reasons (TM), Hoid is unable to injure or kill someone. I'm not sure exactly what reasons, though. 

[Quantus he/him]

11 minutes ago, Stormgate said:

The only problem is that, due to Reasons (TM), Hoid is unable to injure or kill someone. I'm not sure exactly what reasons, though. 

A Draw might be an interesting outcome the Contest of Champions didnt really plan for.  

[alder24]

28 minutes ago, KnightoftheCosmere said:

I was thinking the other day about the contest of champions and who the champion would be. While I strongly doubt this is going to happen Hoid seems like an obvious choice for champion. The terms specify the contest is a fight for the death, and Hoid is basically immortal. I'm pretty sure the only thing on Roshar that could harm him would be Nightblood, as as long as Odium's champion doesn't have that, Dalinar wins because his champion isn't defeated. 

Hoid can’t be caught interfering in Shardic affairs, especially by Odium. Hoid is actively breaking some oaths and agreements he did with Shards, and if he did something so blunt, right in front of Odium's eyes, it would put him in Odium's hand, with deadly consequences. Yes, Hoid can be killed by Shards.

Spoiler

Questioner

Memory is tied to some level or portion of Spiritual Identity, or else Feruchemists would not be able to store it. So, Hoid lost memories at the end of Rhythm of War in his exchange with Odium. Would that mean part of his soul was stolen and then absorbed into Odium, and if so, what is stopping Odium from doing that with all of his enemies?

Brandon Sanderson

Basically, what Odium split off is stuff that Hoid is storing in excess Investiture. (Basically, it was Breaths, in Hoid’s case.) And this sort of thing, where this extra memory… One of the reasons that Hoid is able to function better than, perhaps, some other very long-lived individuals is: he has found out how to keep some of this Identity in, shall we say, SD cards made of Investiture. Imagine that sort of thing. So what Odium was stealing from Hoid was straight out of an SD card. Which means that it’s not nearly as deeply ripping into someone’s soul, and it is also not nearly as noticeable.

But the other thing is: Hoid is directly in violation of certain agreements that have been made, which therefore exposes him to… He is lacking protections. As you’ll notice in the end of Book Three, where he’s like, “I need to be careful, because I am in violation.”

And so, there’s a couple things going on here. Number one, much more easy to access those memories. Number two, Hoid’s in direct violation and under no protections of any sorts of agreements and things like this.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

RoW ch 80:

Quote

“I can’t keep this bubble up much longer, I’m afraid,” Wit said. “He’ll notice if I do—and then he’ll destroy me. I have violated our agreement, which exposes me to his direct action. I’d rather not be killed, as I have seven more people I wanted to insult today.”

 

[Weaver of Shadows he/him]

32 minutes ago, Stormgate said:

The only problem is that, due to Reasons (TM), Hoid is unable to injure or kill someone. I'm not sure exactly what reasons, though. 

I believe holding a dawnshard caused this.

[Firesong she/her]

53 minutes ago, KnightoftheCosmere said:

I was thinking the other day about the contest of champions and who the champion would be. While I strongly doubt this is going to happen Hoid seems like an obvious choice for champion. The terms specify the contest is a fight for the death, and Hoid is basically immortal. I'm pretty sure the only thing on Roshar that could harm him would be Nightblood, as as long as Odium's champion doesn't have that, Dalinar wins because his champion isn't defeated. 

I doubt Rayse would agree to that as he wasn't allowed to hurt Hoid, be it by an agreement made at the Shattering, or a stipulation in the contact. Rayse may be impulsive, but he is smart enough to not agree to a Contest he cannot win. 

[KnightoftheCosmere]

1 minute ago, Firesong said:

I doubt Rayse would agree to that as he wasn't allowed to hurt Hoid, be it by an agreement made at the Shattering, or a stipulation in the contact. Rayse may be impulsive, but he is smart enough to not agree to a Contest he cannot win. 

he already agreed that his champion would face dalinar's. Even if he doesn't like Dalinar's champion, he still has to go through with it.

 

19 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Hoid can’t be caught interfering in Shardic affairs, especially by Odium. Hoid is actively breaking some oaths and agreements he did with Shards, and if he did something so blunt, right in front of Odium's eyes, it would put him in Odium's hand, with deadly consequences. Yes, Hoid can be killed by Shards.

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Memory is tied to some level or portion of Spiritual Identity, or else Feruchemists would not be able to store it. So, Hoid lost memories at the end of Rhythm of War in his exchange with Odium. Would that mean part of his soul was stolen and then absorbed into Odium, and if so, what is stopping Odium from doing that with all of his enemies?

Brandon Sanderson

Basically, what Odium split off is stuff that Hoid is storing in excess Investiture. (Basically, it was Breaths, in Hoid’s case.) And this sort of thing, where this extra memory… One of the reasons that Hoid is able to function better than, perhaps, some other very long-lived individuals is: he has found out how to keep some of this Identity in, shall we say, SD cards made of Investiture. Imagine that sort of thing. So what Odium was stealing from Hoid was straight out of an SD card. Which means that it’s not nearly as deeply ripping into someone’s soul, and it is also not nearly as noticeable.

But the other thing is: Hoid is directly in violation of certain agreements that have been made, which therefore exposes him to… He is lacking protections. As you’ll notice in the end of Book Three, where he’s like, “I need to be careful, because I am in violation.”

And so, there’s a couple things going on here. Number one, much more easy to access those memories. Number two, Hoid’s in direct violation and under no protections of any sorts of agreements and things like this.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

RoW ch 80:

 

Hoid will not be fighting odium, he will be fighting odium's champion. Plus, Odium wasn't able to destroy hoid after he discovered him at the end of RoW, though he was able to take some of his breaths.

[Firesong she/her]

Just now, KnightoftheCosmere said:

he already agreed that his champion would face dalinar's. Even if he doesn't like Dalinar's champion, he still has to go through with it.

 

Hoid will not be fighting odium, he will be fighting odium's champion. Plus, Odium wasn't able to destroy hoid after he discovered him at the end of RoW, though he was able to take some of his breaths.

Oh yeah, it was about Champions. But still, I doubt he would agree to the contract that was written up if it actively allowed Hoid to be the Champion. Given Hoid is immortal, and he knew that Hoid was working on the contract, given Hoid wrote his name in it. 

I think Zellion might be the Champion for Odium. Given how I doubt Brandon would use a name he loves so much (he uses it for game usernames a lot), to a not-significant character. And the Zellion Concept Art seems pretty special, and he was chosen to be one of the Figures. So, I believe that he is at least gonna be very important. Maybe the Champion. 

[alder24]

5 minutes ago, KnightoftheCosmere said:

Hoid will not be fighting odium, he will be fighting odium's champion. Plus, Odium wasn't able to destroy hoid after he discovered him at the end of RoW, though he was able to take some of his breaths.

Odium's champion directly represents Odium himself. That's enough. He doesn't need to fight Odium, Hoid standing on one side of the conflict is enough. Hoid opposing Odium in any way is enough. Because Odium didn't catch him in act in RoW epilogue, they've just met (which seems to be a prearranged meeting, this might include some kind of protection for Hoid), and while Rayse recognized Hoid's influence over Dalinar's first proposal of the contract, he couldn't prove that it was written by Hoid and that Hoid is actively opposing Odium. If Odium caught him when he was comforting Kaladin on Braize, Hoid would be dead. Hoid becoming Dalinar’s champion would be like yelling “I’m breaking our agreement, you can kill me now”.

Taking away Hoid's Breaths didn't cause any actual harm to him. That's why Odium could do that.

Quote

I don’t believe this will cause you actual harm … Odium said. Yes, it seems my predecessor’s agreements will allow me to—

 

[Lego Mistborn he/him]

On 7/28/2023 at 5:20 PM, alder24 said:

when he was comforting Kaladin on Braize,

 

What? When/where is this from. Is it speculation? What led to this theory?

[Ψιτιsτηε Βεsτ]

4 hours ago, Lego Mistborn said:

What? When/where is this from. Is it speculation? What led to this theory?

This is when He tells Kaladin the story of the dog and the dragon. He takes him into his bubble of peace, gives him horneater stew, then encourages him to keep fighting. Their bubble is surrounded by fast wind, and I think we assume it is Braize. (Unless we d know maybe we do).

[alder24]

13 hours ago, Lego Mistborn said:

What? When/where is this from. Is it speculation? What led to this theory?

That's from RoW ch 80. They were on Braize, mentally at least.

Quote

“Wit?” Kaladin asked. “How are you here?”
“I’m not,” Wit said. “And neither are you. This is another planet, or it looks like one—and not a pleasant one, mind you. The kind without lights. No Stormlight ones, gaseous ones, or even electric ones. Damn place barely has an atmosphere.” He glanced at Kaladin, then smiled.
“You’re asleep. The enemy is sending you a vision, similar to those the Stormfather sent Dalinar. I’m not certain how Odium isolated you though. It’s hard for Shards to invade minds like this except in a specific set of circumstances.”

 

[Letryx13]

On 7/28/2023 at 4:26 PM, Quantus said:

A Draw might be an interesting outcome the Contest of Champions didnt really plan for.  

The problem is that a draw just puts them right back where they started before Dalinar got Odium to agree to a contest.  Unless one side could somehow tip the scales of the war in the final ten days, it makes no sense for either side to invalidate the contest.  Dalinar had been pushing hard toward the contest of champions, since Honor told him it was their best hope, and the singers aren't likely to want to continue the war either, since the fuzed are as worn out as they are.  

On 7/28/2023 at 5:20 PM, alder24 said:

Odium's champion directly represents Odium himself. That's enough. He doesn't need to fight Odium, Hoid standing on one side of the conflict is enough. Hoid opposing Odium in any way is enough. Because Odium didn't catch him in act in RoW epilogue, they've just met (which seems to be a prearranged meeting, this might include some kind of protection for Hoid), and while Rayse recognized Hoid's influence over Dalinar's first proposal of the contract, he couldn't prove that it was written by Hoid and that Hoid is actively opposing Odium. If Odium caught him when he was comforting Kaladin on Braize, Hoid would be dead. Hoid becoming Dalinar’s champion would be like yelling “I’m breaking our agreement, you can kill me now”.

Taking away Hoid's Breaths didn't cause any actual harm to him. That's why Odium could do that.

 

Sort of agree.  He can't take direct action against Odium, but counseling Dalinar and the Radiants probably isn't direct enough to invalidate any kind of agreement they have.  He referred to Hoid as a rat scratching at the walls.  Which implies that he knows Hoid is working against him, but not directly. I'm not sure what part exactly Hoid would have violated in helping Kaladin in RoW, but maybe it was because Odium was trying to influence Kaladin directly, whereas Hoid was counseling Jasnah, who then counseled Dalinar.  It's probably similar to how Odium can influence peoples emotions, like with the Thrill or like how he tried to bend Dalinar into being his champion, but can't inflict physical harm himself.  It's another of the sort of loopholes Sanderson works with when having his characters deal with the Shards.

 

[alder24]

9 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

The problem is that a draw just puts them right back where they started before Dalinar got Odium to agree to a contest.  Unless one side could somehow tip the scales of the war in the final ten days, it makes no sense for either side to invalidate the contest.  Dalinar had been pushing hard toward the contest of champions, since Honor told him it was their best hope, and the singers aren't likely to want to continue the war either, since the fuzed are as worn out as they are.  

For Taravangian it would be a chance to make new terms, this time favorable to him, and prepare a better champion. He was very displeased with the terms of the contract. 

12 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

Sort of agree.  He can't take direct action against Odium, but counseling Dalinar and the Radiants probably isn't direct enough to invalidate any kind of agreement they have.

Well, few WoBs and Hoid himself mentioned that he is breaking agreements and now lacks protection - I guess he has to pretend and look as if he isn't breaking them, so Odium wouldn't perceive that and be able to do something about it. Odium knows he's involved but not to what degree, as long as it stays that way, Hoid is fine.

[Letryx13]

6 minutes ago, alder24 said:

For Taravangian it would be a chance to make new terms, this time favorable to him, and prepare a better champion. He was very displeased with the terms of the contract. 

I suppose that's true.  But it seemed like he had figured out a way to free himself from Honor's restrictions, and invalidating the contest doesn't do that.  He needs to find a way to get Dalinar to break the rules of the contest (or explicitly release him) in order to free himself.  And forcing a draw probably wouldn't do that.  

And the singers might not be happy either, if they find out they had a chance at the humans leaving them alone and Odium threw it away.  At the end of Oathbringer, some seemed more interested in peace than power.  Not terribly likely, but possible.

6 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Well, few WoBs and Hoid himself mentioned that he is breaking agreements and now lacks protection - I guess he has to pretend and look as if he isn't breaking them, so Odium wouldn't perceive that and be able to do something about it. Odium knows he's involved but not to what degree, as long as it stays that way, Hoid is fine.

Exactly.  It's not whether Hoid has explicitly broken the agreements; it's whether or not Odium knows about it.  He can't let Odium catch him breaking any agreements with him, or Hoid's protection against Odium is toast.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Letryx13
Addition