KaladinWorldsinger

Hoid will betray Roshar..... Again

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Very interesting. Hoid did warn Dalinar that he would pursue his own goals even if it cost Roshar. I like your theory about Hoid being the intended Stoneward Herald before Taln. 

I think Hoid might try to betray Roshar and fail. It depends what Brandon plans to do with the Cosmere long-term. Does he want to have Odium escape, and have a massive, Cosmere-wide war? Then Hoid will either go soft because of his connection with the Rosharians, or he'll try to betray them and fail. If Brandon wants the battle to save the Cosmere from Odium to stay on Roshar, Hoid may betray them successfully. 

To be fair to Hoid, I shouldn't be calling it a betrayal when he's never claimed to be on their side, and has told them he will prioritize his own agenda before.

 

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I like it.  Makes a ton of sense, and nothing I can think of rules any of it out.

Fits well with my speculation that Jasnah and Hoid are heading towards an ugly breakup, followed by an EPIC "evil ex" dynamic - two powerful, resourceful, and dangerous people who used to love each other but are now bitter enemies.  Nothing would get Jansah fired up more than Hoid betraying her trust and throwing all of Roshar under the bus.

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On 11/20/2021 at 1:37 AM, Vin(Diesel) said:

To be fair to Hoid, I shouldn't be calling it a betrayal when he's never claimed to be on their side, and has told them he will prioritize his own agenda before.

 

I think at this point Kaladin and shallan see their relationship with hoid as friends and they will definitely consider it a betrayal

On 11/20/2021 at 4:38 AM, AquaRegia said:

Fits well with my speculation that Jasnah and Hoid are heading towards an ugly breakup, followed by an EPIC "evil ex" dynamic - two powerful, resourceful, and dangerous people who used to love each other but are now bitter enemies.  Nothing would get Jansah fired up more than Hoid betraying her trust and throwing all of Roshar under the bus.

I also think that they will break up. But I don't think Jasnah really would care about the relationship breaking, instead I think the Hoid will do something far more personal.

Hoid is right now very involved with the shallan-ghostbloods plot(as of RoW) and I bet Jasnah will get roped into it too with the ghostbloods( this might be when Jasnah learns about shallan's secrets)

And their side of the plot seems to be about the unmade. Like finding ba-ado-mishram. We also know that shallan's household had unmade influence over it. 

Jasnah has said that the thing that scares her the most is the thought of losing her sanity, not being able to trust her own mind. This is very personal because she had a period of 'lunacy' during her childhood, a very formative experience for her.

What if hoid sticks an unmade on Jasnah as part of his betrayal? Somehow helps an unmade possess Jasnah? This would be the worst thing that someone close to Jasnah could do to her. Irreparably damaging that trust.

The fact that we see Hoid on other planets during the ten year skip makes me feel like the relationship is going to break

On 11/20/2021 at 1:37 AM, Vin(Diesel) said:

think Hoid might try to betray Roshar and fail. It depends what Brandon plans to do with the Cosmere long-term. Does he want to have Odium escape, and have a massive, Cosmere-wide war? Then Hoid will either go soft because of his connection with the Rosharians, or he'll try to betray them and fail. If Brandon wants the battle to save the Cosmere from Odium to stay on Roshar, Hoid may betray them successfully. 

I don't know if odium escaping has to mean cosmere wide war definitely ( taravangian might be a lot subtler and go quiet for a decade and a half), but I do think that goods betrayal will fail in some way.

I don't think he will go soft, he will prolly betray them and then be surprised on just how much it hurts this time. The back half might have him face the consequences of that decision.

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Honestly I can imagine Hoid being a true villain in the back half. Apologetically of course, but without hesitation.

For us, and our heroes to be betrayed by someone who has been such a close ally would be a big gut punch.

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33 minutes ago, BinarySecond said:

Honestly I can imagine Hoid being a true villain in the back half. Apologetically of course, but without hesitation.

For us, and our heroes to be betrayed by someone who has been such a close ally would be a big gut punch.

Hoid as a villain? Sounds horrifying, don't know if it's likely, but I love it

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Hoid has already said on screen that he would ‘Watch Roshar Burn’ if it served his purpose.

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For some reason, when I first heard of a character that spanned/traveled/wandered the cosmere, I imagined a long-term, long-brewing villain or anti-hero. I don't want to believe it :( because I really love Hoid! (But Brandon often says that of all the characters in the cosmere, he relates most closely to Hoid. This would be a pretty good way to casually make me think he's not going to be a villain, because Brandon himself isn't a villain!... Right?)

The epilogue of Rhythm of War supports this theory, too. Hoid is so wise, so burdened with knowledge, and so generally untouched by fear... but now his knowledge is incomplete. It's been messed with by a brand new god, unbeknownst to him. He probably won't take it well when he realizes how badly he's been played a fool. 

Is it just memory(/memories) that have been taken from Hoid, or something else too?

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3 hours ago, sugjesstive said:

Is it just memory(/memories) that have been taken from Hoid, or something else too?

Memory and a little bit of magic, but an infinetsimal portion.

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On 11/27/2021 at 6:52 PM, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Memory and a little bit of magic, but an infinetsimal portion.

I have to wonder how much this will affect Hoid in the long-term. What kinds of Memories were taken? Can he still access and utilize all of his magics?

I hope it's not a brief plotpoint (e.g., gets resolved in the first half of book 5) because I love the idea of this being the very first time in millennia that someone has gotten the better of Hoid. Would feel a little blah if the only thing that was stolen = Wit's particular memory of TaravOdium being "off", and nothing else. 

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I like the idea that Hoid was meant to be the Stoneward Herald. I hadn't made the link with Topaz, and I did wonder who Taln replaced and why he wasn't meant to be the Stoneward in the first place (especially since he held out on his own against torture for 4500 years, which is perfect for an order who take stubbornness to a divine level). Although he might have planned it. He might have known that Taln needed to become a Herald and arranged things so this happened (let's wait however many years it takes for the Stoneward/Taln book).

As for keeping Odium on Roshar, was it more to do with Odium or with Rayse? It would be a gut punch dripping with dramatic irony if Hoid believes that Todium is less dangerous than Rodium, and he puts less effort into keeping the former contained until he escapes and reveals that he's far more of a threat.

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9 hours ago, sugjesstive said:

I have to wonder how much this will affect Hoid in the long-term. What kinds of Memories were taken? Can he still access and utilize all of his magics?

I hope it's not a brief plotpoint (e.g., gets resolved in the first half of book 5) because I love the idea of this being the very first time in millennia that someone has gotten the better of Hoid. Would feel a little blah if the only thing that was stolen = Wit's particular memory of TaravOdium being "off", and nothing else. 

from a WoB it looks like this will be a first half of book 5 type thing.

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On 27.11.2021 at 9:22 PM, sugjesstive said:

I imagined a long-term, long-brewing villain or anti-hero

I kind of feel like Hoid won't be that, because we have another candidate for it. A good foil for Hoid, and in the far future, maybe even kind of a rival. Either way, it feels like we're watching that set up happen at the moment with Thaidakar, so I doubt Hoid will be too similar to that. But then again, standing by and watching Jasnah, Shallan, Kaladin & co die at the end of Book 10 and knowing he can't interact because of some reason would definitely be an intense moment for him and him as a character

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I mean, it is implied he will, or is at least willing to. 

Quote

And while I am your friend, please understand that our goals do not completely align. You must not trust yourself with me. If I have to watch this world crumble and burn to get what I need, I will do so. With tears, yes, but I would let it happen

 

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