Hoid will betray Roshar..... Again

[KaladinWorldsinger]

FYI: I have only read Stormlight Archive, Warbreaker and Mistborn Era 1 and Secret History. This theory is based on what I know about hoid till now. Anyone who has read the other cosmere works, please correct me where I am wrong.

Hoid usually is very content with he does. He seems to be in control most of times, nothing really surprises him anymore. He is one of the oldest beings in the cosmere and one of the most knowledgeable. His persona is of a chaotic trickster with no allegiance to anyone.  And that is very much true to his real personality.

But Roshar is where we have seen him be most... human. Rosharans surprise Wit a lot.

For ex he is flabbergasted  about something when he sees young Shallan at the marketplace ( we have no idea why. Not important to the theory, just mentioned it)

He is at a genuine loss for words when shallan hugs him years later. I don't think he expected for shallan to be affectionate towards him.

He is again shocked when Kaladin asks him for a story, saying that 'no one has ever asked that'.

Also hoid is at his most wholesome with Shallan and Kaladin, giving them very heartfelt therapy- story sessions.'Accept the pain, don't think you deserve it' and 'You will be warm again' can make me tear up.

He is very helpful this time for protecting the planet( instead of Mistborn where he accelerates the danger). He also has a romantic interest in Jasnah. He is also very open about his belief in a god.

The main theme is that hoid is developing actual human connections with the Rosharans, something he has never had before. This will end only in tragedy. Because taravangian

Brandon has confirmed that Taravangian completely ' hornswoggled' hoid in the epilogue. Hoid did feel true terror there. He did lose some of his memories. Hoid, for the first time, has been actually hurt in a confrontation. Brandon also said that Hoid will find out what happened in the lead up to the contest. (Prolly with the metalminds)

This dude has not felt fear in maybe 7000 years, who says Hoid won't overreact?

Because hoid was really motivated in having rayse- odium bound to the system. And todium has proven himself to be far superior of a threat already.

There is also a lot of foreshadowing that Hoid will betray Roshar. When he talks to Dalinar, he says 'i will burn this world down to get what I want, even with tears'. He repeatedly tells shallan and Jasnah not to trust people. At the end of RoW, Dalinar has to choose between trusting odium and wit

I think we will see Hoid betray the people of Roshar in a cruel,stone-cold way just to make sure todium stays bound. I don't know exactly how, but it will happen. The good guys will have to fix what he did too and some damage could be irreparable. He will definitely lose all his friends and this time, he will have genuine sadness and tears.

This time? Yes, because hoid has definitely betrayed Roshar before. During the first desolation.

We know he knew the heralds (as midius). Isn't it interesting that stonewards are associated with topaz and they swear an oath to be where they are needed? Two things common with hoid?

Also doesn't rayse seem just a little too angry when he reads 'cephandrius' name in the contract. Like he really, really hates hoid for some reason.

Is it because all of this has happened before, like this?

Hoid bring up the idea of the oathpact and the heralds. Because whose plan was this exactly? Who the heralds bring up the idea of eternal torture themselves. No this seems cruel enough to be hood's idea

 He was meant to be the the tenth herald, the stoneward-ish herald, but the moment the oathpact was created, his business was done and he left the planet, leaving the Rosharans to panic. Taln steps up for the job and the rest his history.

I think in this case Hoid knew that taln was going to pick his place. But what he did was still a betrayal. He just doesn't care much

 This time, he will care

What do you guys think?

[Vin(Diesel)]

Very interesting. Hoid did warn Dalinar that he would pursue his own goals even if it cost Roshar. I like your theory about Hoid being the intended Stoneward Herald before Taln. 

I think Hoid might try to betray Roshar and fail. It depends what Brandon plans to do with the Cosmere long-term. Does he want to have Odium escape, and have a massive, Cosmere-wide war? Then Hoid will either go soft because of his connection with the Rosharians, or he'll try to betray them and fail. If Brandon wants the battle to save the Cosmere from Odium to stay on Roshar, Hoid may betray them successfully. 

To be fair to Hoid, I shouldn't be calling it a betrayal when he's never claimed to be on their side, and has told them he will prioritize his own agenda before.

 

[AquaRegia]

I like it.  Makes a ton of sense, and nothing I can think of rules any of it out.

Fits well with my speculation that Jasnah and Hoid are heading towards an ugly breakup, followed by an EPIC "evil ex" dynamic - two powerful, resourceful, and dangerous people who used to love each other but are now bitter enemies.  Nothing would get Jansah fired up more than Hoid betraying her trust and throwing all of Roshar under the bus.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

On 11/20/2021 at 1:37 AM, Vin(Diesel) said:

To be fair to Hoid, I shouldn't be calling it a betrayal when he's never claimed to be on their side, and has told them he will prioritize his own agenda before.

 

I think at this point Kaladin and shallan see their relationship with hoid as friends and they will definitely consider it a betrayal

On 11/20/2021 at 4:38 AM, AquaRegia said:

Fits well with my speculation that Jasnah and Hoid are heading towards an ugly breakup, followed by an EPIC "evil ex" dynamic - two powerful, resourceful, and dangerous people who used to love each other but are now bitter enemies.  Nothing would get Jansah fired up more than Hoid betraying her trust and throwing all of Roshar under the bus.

I also think that they will break up. But I don't think Jasnah really would care about the relationship breaking, instead I think the Hoid will do something far more personal.

Hoid is right now very involved with the shallan-ghostbloods plot(as of RoW) and I bet Jasnah will get roped into it too with the ghostbloods( this might be when Jasnah learns about shallan's secrets)

And their side of the plot seems to be about the unmade. Like finding ba-ado-mishram. We also know that shallan's household had unmade influence over it. 

Jasnah has said that the thing that scares her the most is the thought of losing her sanity, not being able to trust her own mind. This is very personal because she had a period of 'lunacy' during her childhood, a very formative experience for her.

What if hoid sticks an unmade on Jasnah as part of his betrayal? Somehow helps an unmade possess Jasnah? This would be the worst thing that someone close to Jasnah could do to her. Irreparably damaging that trust.

The fact that we see Hoid on other planets during the ten year skip makes me feel like the relationship is going to break

On 11/20/2021 at 1:37 AM, Vin(Diesel) said:

think Hoid might try to betray Roshar and fail. It depends what Brandon plans to do with the Cosmere long-term. Does he want to have Odium escape, and have a massive, Cosmere-wide war? Then Hoid will either go soft because of his connection with the Rosharians, or he'll try to betray them and fail. If Brandon wants the battle to save the Cosmere from Odium to stay on Roshar, Hoid may betray them successfully. 

I don't know if odium escaping has to mean cosmere wide war definitely ( taravangian might be a lot subtler and go quiet for a decade and a half), but I do think that goods betrayal will fail in some way.

I don't think he will go soft, he will prolly betray them and then be surprised on just how much it hurts this time. The back half might have him face the consequences of that decision.

[BinarySecond]

Honestly I can imagine Hoid being a true villain in the back half. Apologetically of course, but without hesitation.

For us, and our heroes to be betrayed by someone who has been such a close ally would be a big gut punch.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

33 minutes ago, BinarySecond said:

Honestly I can imagine Hoid being a true villain in the back half. Apologetically of course, but without hesitation.

For us, and our heroes to be betrayed by someone who has been such a close ally would be a big gut punch.

Hoid as a villain? Sounds horrifying, don't know if it's likely, but I love it

[IllNsickly]

Hoid has already said on screen that he would ‘Watch Roshar Burn’ if it served his purpose.

[+sugjesstive]

For some reason, when I first heard of a character that spanned/traveled/wandered the cosmere, I imagined a long-term, long-brewing villain or anti-hero. I don't want to believe it because I really love Hoid! (But Brandon often says that of all the characters in the cosmere, he relates most closely to Hoid. This would be a pretty good way to casually make me think he's not going to be a villain, because Brandon himself isn't a villain!... Right?)

The epilogue of Rhythm of War supports this theory, too. Hoid is so wise, so burdened with knowledge, and so generally untouched by fear... but now his knowledge is incomplete. It's been messed with by a brand new god, unbeknownst to him. He probably won't take it well when he realizes how badly he's been played a fool. 

Is it just memory(/memories) that have been taken from Hoid, or something else too?

[Frustration]

3 hours ago, sugjesstive said:

Is it just memory(/memories) that have been taken from Hoid, or something else too?

Memory and a little bit of magic, but an infinetsimal portion.

[+sugjesstive]

On 11/27/2021 at 6:52 PM, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Memory and a little bit of magic, but an infinetsimal portion.

I have to wonder how much this will affect Hoid in the long-term. What kinds of Memories were taken? Can he still access and utilize all of his magics?

I hope it's not a brief plotpoint (e.g., gets resolved in the first half of book 5) because I love the idea of this being the very first time in millennia that someone has gotten the better of Hoid. Would feel a little blah if the only thing that was stolen = Wit's particular memory of TaravOdium being "off", and nothing else. 

[jamesbondsmith]

I like the idea that Hoid was meant to be the Stoneward Herald. I hadn't made the link with Topaz, and I did wonder who Taln replaced and why he wasn't meant to be the Stoneward in the first place (especially since he held out on his own against torture for 4500 years, which is perfect for an order who take stubbornness to a divine level). Although he might have planned it. He might have known that Taln needed to become a Herald and arranged things so this happened (let's wait however many years it takes for the Stoneward/Taln book).

As for keeping Odium on Roshar, was it more to do with Odium or with Rayse? It would be a gut punch dripping with dramatic irony if Hoid believes that Todium is less dangerous than Rodium, and he puts less effort into keeping the former contained until he escapes and reveals that he's far more of a threat.

[Frustration]

9 hours ago, sugjesstive said:

I have to wonder how much this will affect Hoid in the long-term. What kinds of Memories were taken? Can he still access and utilize all of his magics?

I hope it's not a brief plotpoint (e.g., gets resolved in the first half of book 5) because I love the idea of this being the very first time in millennia that someone has gotten the better of Hoid. Would feel a little blah if the only thing that was stolen = Wit's particular memory of TaravOdium being "off", and nothing else. 

from a WoB it looks like this will be a first half of book 5 type thing.

[Benkinsky]

On 27.11.2021 at 9:22 PM, sugjesstive said:

I imagined a long-term, long-brewing villain or anti-hero

I kind of feel like Hoid won't be that, because we have another candidate for it. A good foil for Hoid, and in the far future, maybe even kind of a rival. Either way, it feels like we're watching that set up happen at the moment with Thaidakar, so I doubt Hoid will be too similar to that. But then again, standing by and watching Jasnah, Shallan, Kaladin & co die at the end of Book 10 and knowing he can't interact because of some reason would definitely be an intense moment for him and him as a character

[Zoey]

I mean, it is implied he will, or is at least willing to. 

Quote

And while I am your friend, please understand that our goals do not completely align. You must not trust yourself with me. If I have to watch this world crumble and burn to get what I need, I will do so. With tears, yes, but I would let it happen

 

[+Oltux72]

On 20.11.2021 at 0:08 AM, AquaRegia said:

I like it.  Makes a ton of sense, and nothing I can think of rules any of it out.

Fits well with my speculation that Jasnah and Hoid are heading towards an ugly breakup, followed by an EPIC "evil ex" dynamic - two powerful, resourceful, and dangerous people who used to love each other but are now bitter enemies.  Nothing would get Jansah fired up more than Hoid betraying her trust and throwing all of Roshar under the bus.

Jasnah fully expects that to happen. "Keep your friends close; keep your enemies closer." In her case that is very close indeed. If you look at their relationship as based on romance, you are mistaken.

[TheCollector]

If being Topaz has anything to do with it, then why was it made worthless by Hoid wearing it?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is a reference to the "Topaz":

Quote

"Another time, I was named for a rock."

"A pretty one, I hope."

"A beautiful one," [Hoid] said. "And one that became completely worthless for my wearing it."

Again, I may be wrong. 

But if I'm not, what is Hoid talking about?

[Bort]

@TheCollector I'm fairly sure you're right. It was Topaz.

[+Oltux72]

Just now, TheCollector said:

If being Topaz has anything to do with it, then why was it made worthless by Hoid wearing it?

Presumably it was a weapon. Therefore Hoid cannot use it.

[Bort]

1 minute ago, Oltux72 said:

Presumably it was a weapon. Therefore Hoid cannot use it.

Maybe... I was just thinking though, how I don't think we've had any reference to Topaz chips, marks, or broams. What if it's a literal thing... Topaz becomes worthless... Because Hoid betrayed Roshar? I'm not sure what the specifics would be though.

[Anomander Rake]

2 minutes ago, Bort said:

Maybe... I was just thinking though, how I don't think we've had any reference to Topaz chips, marks, or broams. What if it's a literal thing... Topaz becomes worthless... Because Hoid betrayed Roshar? I'm not sure what the specifics would be though.

This was my thought.  The topaz he was wearing was the literal name / title of "Topaz" that he used, and through this relationship and past events Topaz is now reviled or worthless in places across the cosmere (or potentially in realmatically meaningful ways if any of this lined up with his time as a dawnshard, maybe he messed around with stuff somewhow?).

[+Oltux72]

Just now, Bort said:

Maybe... I was just thinking though, how I don't think we've had any reference to Topaz chips, marks, or broams. What if it's a literal thing... Topaz becomes worthless... Because Hoid betrayed Roshar? I'm not sure what the specifics would be though.

Hoid being named Topaz likely predated human habitation of Roshar or at least the use of gemstones as currency. Soulcasters are a late invention comparatively speaking.

Apparently gems can be used to store many forms of Investiture, including gadgets or weapons.

[Anomander Rake]

Spoiler

ParadoxicalZen

The Second Letter, Frost mentions a gemstone, is that in the Moon Scepter?

Brandon Sanderson

No, good question. That is a topaz, which was associated with him for a long time and had some mystical properties.

Shadows of Self London UK signing (Oct. 19, 2015)

honestly unsure if this points one way or another - this makes me think that it is a specific topaz being referred to as opposed to the gem generally, but I dont think it rules it out the latter

[animalia]

If Hoid coming back to Roshar after the betrayal DOES happen I would love to see him and Renarin (the Consumate Lightweaver and the offbrand Truthwatcher) interact.

 

[necrobrain]

If this betrayal is going to happen, which I agree is being foreshadowed in a classically Brandon way, I think it ought to happen in the back five. Hoid interfering with the Contest of Champions seems like it would ruin the climax, especially considering we've only been (barely) hinted at his history with the Heralds so to a casual reader it could come out of the blue. Whereas in the back five (where we're going to learn much more of the Heralds), it could be built up to more. Though a possible counter-argument to this would be that maybe learning of his history with the Heralds post-fact would be a better way to do it.

[mathiau]

On 19/11/2021 at 8:26 PM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

This dude has not felt fear in maybe 7000 years, who says Hoid won't overreact?

Probably 10 000 years, that's roughly when the Shattering happened

Quote

There is also a lot of foreshadowing that Hoid will betray Roshar. When he talks to Dalinar, he says 'i will burn this world down to get what I want, even with tears'. He repeatedly tells shallan and Jasnah not to trust people. At the end of RoW, Dalinar has to choose between trusting odium and wit

Also the Oathbringer scene where he tell Hoid to never trust anyone who says they're able to see the future, including him.

Quote

I think we will see Hoid betray the people of Roshar in a cruel,stone-cold way just to make sure todium stays bound. I don't know exactly how, but it will happen. The good guys will have to fix what he did too and some damage could be irreparable. He will definitely lose all his friends and this time, he will have genuine sadness and tears.

By the way, that's basically the plot of the Emperor's Soul (on a smaller scale and minus the tears)

Quote

We know he knew the heralds (as midius). Isn't it interesting that stonewards are associated with topaz and they swear an oath to be where they are needed? Two things common with hoid?

That could just be that big A gave a symbolic (or magical) meaning to some stones

 

Quote

Also doesn't rayse seem just a little too angry when he reads 'cephandrius' name in the contract. Like he really, really hates hoid for some reason.

That's not that surprising considering they hated each other even before Rayse became the god of hatred

Quote

Hoid bring up the idea of the oathpact and the heralds. Because whose plan was this exactly? Who the heralds bring up the idea of eternal torture themselves. No this seems cruel enough to be hood's idea

 He was meant to be the the tenth herald, the stoneward-ish herald, but the moment the oathpact was created, his business was done and he left the planet, leaving the Rosharans to panic. Taln steps up for the job and the rest his history.

That really sound that something Hoid would do, especially considering what he did in the Emperor Soul (or rather, what he did before it)

Quote

I think in this case Hoid knew that taln was going to pick his place. But what he did was still a betrayal. He just doesn't care much

Considering he didn't know he went to Kholinar to save Design, he probably didn't

Quote

 This time, he will care

What do you guys think?

I love it

On 22/02/2022 at 5:20 PM, TheCollector said:

If being Topaz has anything to do with it, then why was it made worthless by Hoid wearing it?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is a reference to the "Topaz":

Again, I may be wrong. 

But if I'm not, what is Hoid talking about?

In his letter, Frost mention that "the gemstone is now dead", probably because Hoid used all it contained

On 22/02/2022 at 5:43 PM, Bort said:

Maybe... I was just thinking though, how I don't think we've had any reference to Topaz chips, marks, or broams. What if it's a literal thing... Topaz becomes worthless... Because Hoid betrayed Roshar? I'm not sure what the specifics would be though.

As funny as it would be, topaz are worth more than diamonds

On 22/02/2022 at 5:40 PM, Oltux72 said:

Presumably it was a weapon. Therefore Hoid cannot use it.

I suspect it contained the Dawnshard that's different from the three other and that for some reason (probably related to the Shattering) it can't be put back in there

On 22/02/2022 at 5:52 PM, Oltux72 said:

Hoid being named Topaz likely predated human habitation of Roshar or at least the use of gemstones as currency. Soulcasters are a late invention comparatively speaking.

Apparently gems can be used to store many forms of Investiture, including gadgets or weapons.

Unless Brandon changed his plan, he was probably already called Topaz before the Shattering