Nightwatcher (and Cultivation) boon and curse discussion

[Vin(Diesel)]

Let's talk about the Old Magic.

Do you think that the Nightwatcher acts justly in the boons and curses she gives out? As a case study, do I just have a dirty mind, or do you think the man who got numb hands might have asked for something a bit... personal? Something numb hands might help with a bit? (trying not to get R rated.) Maybe the Nightwatcher found his request pathetic and decided to give him his boon in the form of numb hands. 

And why the heck did Cultivation answer Taravangian's request for capacity to save humankind in a twisted way that led him to become Odium? Doesn't Cultivation want humans to survive? She does not have to maintain any kind of balance in her boons and curses, apparently, so she didn't have to give him a curse as large as his boon was great. And anyway, it doesn't appear that she did give him the capacity, not really, though we can't tell that for sure yet. 

Thoughts?

Edited November 20, 2021 by Vin(Diesel)

[KaladinWorldsinger]

54 minutes ago, Vin(Diesel) said:

And why the heck did Cultivation answer Taravangian's request for capacity to save humankind in a twisted way that led him to become Odium? Doesn't Cultivation want humans to survive? She does not have to maintain any kind of balance in her boons and curses, apparently, so she didn't have to give him a curse as large as his boon was great. And anyway, it doesn't appear that she did give him the capacity, not really, though we can't tell that for sure yet. 

She thought that Taravangian becoming odium was the safest thing for the human race. She took a similar bet with Dalinar and he chose right. However she clearly did not understand the consequences of handing taravangian a shard well enough

[Frustration]

26 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

She thought that Taravangian becoming odium was the safest thing for the human race. She took a similar bet with Dalinar and he chose right. However she clearly did not understand the consequences of handing taravangian a shard well enough

Or she completly understood and everything is going to plan.

[Olmund]

16 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Or she completly understood and everything is going to plan.

I'm with Worldsinger on this one. The way she interacts with Taravodium after he takes up the power doesn't give me the impression that she really understood the consequences of her actions. The odds of Taravangian becoming Odium were so slim that Rayse didn't see it coming at all, so I believe that the timeline she foresaw where Taravangian killed Rayse was pretty hazy.

This is going out on a limb, but Taravangian is extremely crafty and has experience as a transcendent intelligence, which may make him somewhat resistant to futuresight as a shard -- someone looking at his future may see the possible pathways branch so rapidly that it's like he's flaring atium with too many possible futures for even another shard to process (in a timely manner, at least). If I had to bet who is going to "hornswoggle" who, my money would be on T!Odium totally outplaying Cultivation -- not the other way around.

[Frustration]

7 minutes ago, Olmund said:

This is going out on a limb, but Taravangian is extremely crafty and has experience as a transcendent intelligence, which may make him somewhat resistant to futuresight as a shard -- someone looking at his future may see the possible pathways branch so rapidly that it's like he's flaring atium with too many possible futures for even another shard to process (in a timely manner, at least)

Any expirence Taravangian had is not just miniscule it might as well not exist when compared to Cultivation's 10,000+ years of future sight hundreds of times better than the day the diagram was made. That will not make the difference.

Cultivation outplayed another shard not once but twice, Taravangian will not have better future sight than Rayse.

[NameIess]

10 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Cultivation outplayed another shard not once but twice, Taravangian will not have better future sight than Rayse.

I think he already does. He saw possibilities that Rayse overlooked. I think that futuresight depends on both the individual's personality, and their intent. For example, Rodium was blinded by his intent somewhat, leading to him being able to handle futuresight well because of his personality, but refusing to see futures that went against his intent. Cultivation may be similarly blinded, only accepting futures in which Taravangian grows as a result of his ascension, not the reality where he continues with his plan. Either that or she's fully on board with his plan and Todium and Cultivation are going to make up an unstoppable duo in their path to dominance of the Cosmere.

[Eternal Khol]

7 hours ago, Frustration said:

Or she completly understood and everything is going to plan.

Im of the mind that Cultivation knew exactly what she was doing. She was smart enough to set up what she did, im sure she wouldnt be stupid enough to overlook the fact that Ascending to godhood would give Taravangian grander ambitions.

[Olmund]

7 hours ago, Frustration said:

Any expirence Taravangian had is not just miniscule it might as well not exist when compared to Cultivation's 10,000+ years of future sight hundreds of times better than the day the diagram was made. That will not make the difference.

Cultivation outplayed another shard not once but twice, Taravangian will not have better future sight than Rayse.

Must I dust off Sazed's quote?

Spoiler

In truth, it would be a combination of a Vessel's craftiness and the power's Intent that we should fear most.

This was deliberate foreshadowing of Taravangian's ascendency. Perhaps Koravellium Avast was a subtle tactician before ascending, as she has managed to accomplish quite a bit as Cultivation (though iirc she has admitted that some of her biggest interventions were gambles -- Dalinar and Taravangian were not guaranteed to turn out the way they did, and in Oathbringer Cultivation seemed fairly convinced that Dalinar would end up as Rayse's champion despite her pruning). However, it is unlikely that she had Taravangian's extensive experience with manipulation -- both personal (micro) and political (macro) -- prior to holding a shard. And her 10,000+ years of future sight also mean 10,000+ years being the vessel of a shard -- so she lacks the same level of flexibility and unpredictability that a new shard holder may have.

I could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain that Cultivation is woefully unprepared to deal with Taravodium. She had every motivation to find a way to kill Rayse, but I don't think she was spending nearly as much time or energy on what would come after.

[Frustration]

12 minutes ago, Olmund said:

Must I dust off Sazed's quote?

  Reveal hidden contents

In truth, it would be a combination of a Vessel's craftiness and the power's Intent that we should fear most.

 

Note that it says we should fear, Cultivation is not neccesarily on Hoid's side, a little destruction could be just what she wants. And we see that Taravangian isn't exactly the most compatable with Odium.

Also MB spoilers

Spoiler

We see multiple times in MB that even small diferences in power between shards means a lot. 

Cultivation is barely invested in Roshar, Honor did most of it, and Odium likewise has put a lot of his power into the world.

And to top that off a not insignificant amount was ripped off by Nightblood, so power wise Cultivation has the upper hand.

 

12 minutes ago, Olmund said:

This was deliberate foreshadowing of Taravangian's ascendency. Perhaps Koravellium Avast was a subtle tactician before ascending, as she has managed to accomplish quite a bit as Cultivation (though iirc she has admitted that some of her biggest interventions were gambles -- Dalinar and Taravangian were not guaranteed to turn out the way they did, and in Oathbringer Cultivation seemed fairly convinced that Dalinar would end up as Rayse's champion despite her pruning). However, it is unlikely that she had Taravangian's extensive experience with manipulation -- both personal (micro) and political (macro) -- prior to holding a shard. And her 10,000+ years of future sight also mean 10,000+ years being the vessel of a shard -- so she lacks the same level of flexibility and unpredictability that a new shard holder may have.

That is true, but she also has expierience he doesn't, Brandon pointed out the lack of finess with Odium removing Hoid's breath. And on top of that Cultivation is bound by no Oaths Odium is, that leaves him vulnerable in many ways she isn't.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Frustration

[Honorless]

@Vin(Diesel), I thought the same thing about that particular Boon/Bane, lol.

The Nightwatcher definitely isn't fair. Her Banes are random, seemingly unconnected to the Boon. So it's possible that they could be mild, could be disproportionate, it could also be that the disproportionate ones are something that seems disproportionate but something that you could adapt to with time. The numb hands and seeing things upside down Banes could support that hypothesis. Cultivation's Boon and Bane can be argued to be more fair. Ultimately they both give you what they think you deserve, Cultivation is just more thematic compared to the spin-the-wheel style of her daughter.

[Tglassy]

I think there's a few reasons TOdium is more of a threat.  First is because he's a New Shard.  Yes, the older ones, like Cultivation, are more adept at using their power, but they're also more locked in to their intent.  Honor was much more focused on Oaths themselves before he died.  Ruin just wanted Entropy to reach its fullest conclusion and destroy EVERYTHING.  Supposedly, Ati wasn't a bad guy before becoming Ruin for thousands of years.  Preservation could barely act, because all he wanted to do was preserve.  Cultivation seems sane, but if you believe Odium, then all she cares about is growth and it doesn't matter if it's healthy or not.  

But with a NEW Shardholder, their person isn't as corrupted by the Shard's Intent.  Sazed WANTS to help people, he WANTS to do things that his power just won't let him do.  Other Shards seem to want to do only what the Intent of their Shard wants them to do.  Rayse was barely in control by the time the books are set, and his Shard is all about rage and passion.  TOdium will be feeling all that, but he's still himself, and likely will be for a very, very long time.  Eventually, though, it's possible that he will become just like Rayse did.  

Second, T is not necessarily going to have the same "I don't want my intent corrupted" mentality that Rayse did.  Which means he could very well try to absorb other shards, especially when he hears about Sazed.  

Third, Rayse and Ati were both the first generation Shard Holders.  They very much seemed convinced of their own power.  It took another Shard Holder to take down Ruin, so Sazed will be rightfully fearful of another Shard Holder being able to threaten him.  

But T was a weak old man, and not even an intelligent one at the time.  Not only did he realize that Odium can't see everything (anyone who can also see the future is basically invisible to him), but he can be tricked by common, stupid people.  The First Generation may feel invulnerable, or at least that the only thing that threatens them is another Shard, but T knows differently.  He won't make the same mistakes that Rayse or Ati did.  As much power as he has, he's not Omnipotent or Omniscient.