Cocoa

[Theory] a-Copper and a-Bronze are not "Cognitive"

16 posts in this topic

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

Could a Soother prevent a listener from attuning a given rhythm?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No. A coppercloud could, but I hadn't thought about emotional allomancy interacting. See, the rhythm isn't your emotion and doesn't determine your mood. It is a direct connection to the spiritual realm. So I guess soothing could make it harder just like it makes anything harder, in the same way that driving a car would be harder. [recording starts here] And so, for the same reasons that you can, um, it is possible that a coppercloud can play with it. Not a normal power of a coppercloud, but you’ve seen them do stuff similar.

Footnote: Question was cut off in recording, first bit reproduced from memory
Boskone 54 (Feb. 17, 2017)

Quote

Aethenoth

Can an Allomantic bronze burner hear the Rhythms on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, this is possible.

General Signed Books 2016 (May 2, 2016)

Between these two quotes we can see that Smokers and Seekers should both be able to affect the rhythms of Roshar in the same way they're able to dampen/detect allomantic pulses. And in the first quote, Brandon explains that the rhythms are tied to the spiritual realm, not so much the cognitive. So what I'm thinking is, copper and bronze being treated as 'cognitive' metals is one of those "Scadrians don't have a complete understanding of the metallic arts, there's some errors in the provided information that will clear up as the timeline and in-universe research progress" (heavily paraphrased) things that Brandon's talked about before.

I would almost suggest that the proper grouping for copper and bronze would be with gold and electrum, since all four seem to tie to the spiritual realm more directly than other metals, except that would throw the whole internal/external division of allomantic metals into question since all four are internal metals.

Edited by Cocoa
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13 hours ago, Cocoa said:

I would almost suggest that the proper grouping for copper and bronze would be with gold and electrum, since all four seem to tie to the spiritual realm more directly than other metals, except that would throw the whole internal/external division of allomantic metals into question since all four are internal metals.

Except for the fact that in this context... copper/bronze seem pretty external, eh?

 

You bring up some super interesting ideas here! Thanks for sharing.

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Has it come up anywhere if singers could detect allomatic pulses?

I'm guessing they can't as I imagine it's similar to what the screamers are doing in oathbringer. Unless it just takes training/intent for the singers, i can imagine odium preventing this to make them more reliant on him.

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On 11/18/2021 at 10:57 PM, Cocoa said:

I would almost suggest that the proper grouping for copper and bronze would be with gold and electrum, since all four seem to tie to the spiritual realm more directly than other metals, except that would throw the whole internal/external division of allomantic metals into question since all four are internal metals.

I think the bigger issue is that Cadmium and Bendalloy fit quite well to this as well since time is heavily connected to the spiritual world and I believe there is WoB out there somewhere although I am struggling to find it that essentially how they get around redshift is by moving light in and out of the spiritual realm at the bubbles threshold. Then again you may be onto something since I know Brandon has mentioned multiple times on live streams that the table is not absolute and not actually restricted by any laws of the Cosmere, it's grouped how it is because it's close enough and humans love grouping things together. So I do think you are right that they are at least somewhat spiritual in nature. Also technically spiritual isn't a true category on the table, instead, there is physical, mental, temporal, and enhancement. Perhaps what you just did is stumbled upon an entirely new way of grouping the metals. Great work keep it up!

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1 hour ago, ZHRPhoenix said:

I think the bigger issue is that Cadmium and Bendalloy fit quite well to this as well since time is heavily connected to the spiritual world and I believe there is WoB out there somewhere although I am struggling to find it that essentially how they get around redshift is by moving light in and out of the spiritual realm at the bubbles threshold. Then again you may be onto something since I know Brandon has mentioned multiple times on live streams that the table is not absolute and not actually restricted by any laws of the Cosmere, it's grouped how it is because it's close enough and humans love grouping things together. So I do think you are right that they are at least somewhat spiritual in nature. Also technically spiritual isn't a true category on the table, instead, there is physical, mental, temporal, and enhancement. Perhaps what you just did is stumbled upon an entirely new way of grouping the metals. Great work keep it up!

Yep, though pretty much all the metals interface with the spiritual realm in some way, even if it's just pulling power from there when burned. Gold, Electrum, Copper, Bronze, and maybe the enhancement metals just seem to do it moreso than the others.

One other big roadblock that's occurred to me since making this post is that, if you group the metals that way, Hemalurgy stops making sense, because the metals that can be used to steal powers all line up to the existing quadrants.

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Could we and the Scadrians be looking at this in reverse?

Copper is a pulling metal and bronze is a pushing metal. Could a Seeker actually be sending out pulses and listening for the reflections, while a Smoker absorbs or muffles those pulses, preventing the Seeker from listening?

Investiture resists Investiture. Allomancers burning metals are Invested. If you send out a pulse and it hits someone burning a metal, it's like a sound hitting a wall, and depending on the metal being burned, that "sound" reflects differently.

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I wonder if, assuming it's really "internal", allomantic copper ends up with its apparently external effect by strengthening the part of the Allomancer that Nalthian life sense, etc., detects in order to create static.

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Posted (edited)

An often forgotten description of A-Copper is the first time Vin burns the metal she feels vibrations inside her. 

Edited by StanLemon
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On 12/30/2021 at 1:41 PM, ShardlessVessel said:

Could we and the Scadrians be looking at this in reverse?

Copper is a pulling metal and bronze is a pushing metal. Could a Seeker actually be sending out pulses and listening for the reflections, while a Smoker absorbs or muffles those pulses, preventing the Seeker from listening?

Investiture resists Investiture. Allomancers burning metals are Invested. If you send out a pulse and it hits someone burning a metal, it's like a sound hitting a wall, and depending on the metal being burned, that "sound" reflects differently.

If that were the case, I would think that seekers would hear other seekers "pulses"... do we have any examples of this? Did Vin ever listen for Bronze pulses and notice anything strange about them?

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2 minutes ago, Lunu’anaki said:

If that were the case, I would think that seekers would hear other seekers "pulses"... do we have any examples of this? Did Vin ever listen for Bronze pulses and notice anything strange about them?

Quote

“What do you sense?” Marsh asked. “I…think there are two different metals being burned. One’s coming from Kelsier down below; the other is coming from you.”

It feels just like a regular metal.

Why should there be a difference, though? Whether pulsed out or reflected, it's a pulse coming at you.

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Having said what I said, I like  @cometaryorbit's suggestion that allomantic detection is related to Nalthian life sense, especially given this Coppermind entry that I just checked:

Quote

If an Aviar like Kokerlii were nearby, it would interfere with the Awakener's life sense.[9] Copperclouds,[10] a Feruchemist filling a nicrosilmind with their Investiture fully,[11] and Aluminum can also block life sense.[12]

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Heightening#Fourth_Heightening

(emphasis mine)

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IMO investiture detection is probably a standard cosmere mechanic... the primary difference I see is that Allomancy detects Allomancy by default and potentially any Kinetic Investiture while Nalthian life sense detects souls/Breath which are more passive or static (Innate Investiture?)

"Sixth of the Dusk" also has a detection machine...

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42 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Sixth of the Dusk" also has a detection machine...

Which is likely Allomancy-based, as the Ones Above have been implied to be future Scadrians.

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16 hours ago, ShardlessVessel said:

It feels just like a regular metal.

Why should there be a difference, though? Whether pulsed out or reflected, it's a pulse coming at you.

It would be somewhat different in this proposed scenario because bronze would be the only metal that actually "pulsed" all the metal pulses detected by seekers would be reflected bronze pulses that were changed by other investiture.

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5 minutes ago, Lunu’anaki said:

It would be somewhat different in this proposed scenario because bronze would be the only metal that actually "pulsed" all the metal pulses detected by seekers would be reflected bronze pulses that were changed by other investiture.

That is actually a pretty good point - and I'm rethinking my idea of pulse reflection, anyhow. Pulling metals feel like they're pulling you in rather than coming towards you, which I don't think would be possible if it were a reflected pulse.

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Also, bronze pulses can't be totally "active radar" (bronze burning being the only actual source of pulses) given the WoB about Ruin's power creating pulses, I think

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