Lift as a CS Theory - Refutations Welcome

[Olmund]

This may have been discussed already, but I was thinking that some of Lift's anomalies could be explained if she was a cognitive shadow stapled to her body somewhat akin to a Returned (but without the divine breath). Specifically, it could explain:

1. Her strong connection to the cognitive realm (since she's a CS), though we haven't seen another CS with her exact properties.

2. How Cultivation granted her wish "to stay the same" since a CS can be considered a fossilized version of the living entity (per Vasher, at least).

Her powerset also explains some things that would otherwise pose issues if she were a CS -- e.g., the constant need for investiture (she can produce it fairly easily, so she's not in danger of running out unless she starves to death -- which would also kill her anyhow). This theory could generate some narrative interest for her flashback chapters in the back half (if she dies as a child and is saved by Cultivation, for example). 

That's the theory in a nutshell. If anyone is aware of any outright deconfirmations via WoB or would like to offer comments/critiques/refutations, be my guest.

[Honorless]

That's a pretty neat theory. She'd have to be a different kind of Cognitive Shadow though, as it seems like she does age. She just started her menstrual cycle and was quite distraught when she realized that she is aging and Cultivation did not grant her what she asked for.

For your point (1), Humans can have a stronger connection to the Cognitive Realm. Or rather, mostly human? The Unkalaki people can see spren rather than just the manifestation poking into the Physical. Maybe Lift just has more of that.

For your point (2), since she is aging, as she notices in RoW, then her wish to never change was not granted. So, while being turned into a Cognitive Shadow is a very interesting way of granting that wish, this probably isn't what's going on with her.

Huh, I was wondering how her ability to metabolize Lifelight would've been handled by this Cognitive Shadow theory, also pretty good & interesting!

Overall, it's actually not impossible. Lift could be a new type of Cognitive Shadow. Maybe she will stop aging at some point in her adulthood. Also, possibly related, Brandon has confirmed that the Heralds and the Returned are both capable of having children. Wait a minute! The God-Kings of Hallandren! The God-Kings die as babies and then Return... wait, I don't know if they Return in an adult body or if they age into an adult and then freeze. I do remember wondering if Returned return back into their own bodies, and the answer was yes, so the Returned would, in this case, return back into their baby body. Well, Investiture can and do change their bodies though, that's how Stennimar turned into Lightsong. Hmm...

Okay, so, the theory does tie everything up satisfactorily and not actually a definitive no to the theory yet, I think.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Honorless

[Olmund]

Yeah, the god-kings of Hallendren were the main reason I didn't dismiss the idea out of hand, since we know that cognitive shadows do age until they reach "maturity." Otherwise, the fact that she is aging and menstruating would seem to contradict the idea that she is a cognitive shadow, because her physical body is definitely not conforming to how she views herself. I think the god-kings show that aging to a certain extent is involuntary, even for cognitive shadows (probably tying in with the ideal spiritual realm self).

As for Cultivation not actually granting her wish, Wyndle seems overly fixated on the wording of Lift's wish, whereas I'm fairly certain Cultivation would have understood the intent behind Lift's wish (intent is really big for shards, after all). So I could definitely see her granting it in a way that Lift wouldn't understand, while still adhering to the original intent.

[Quantus]

Interesting!  Thematically it would be a very cool and consistent development, especially after Vasher's speech in RoW about the different Cognitive Shadow types and including Szeth as the low end of the scale.  It would likely mean that she is Connected to something that is sustaining her the way the Oathpact is what is sustaining the Heralds.  It's possible that it's more purely Cultivation's act and so wouldn't be as Innately Connected as Honor seems to be or Endowment demonstrably is not, and it might be as simple as using the metabolized Lifelight to do it. 

Thematic Counterargument: Can a Zombie Ghost be a channel for Lifelight, or does that require a "real" living being? 

[Olmund]

On 11/19/2021 at 9:53 AM, Quantus said:

Thematic Counterargument: Can a Zombie Ghost be a channel for Lifelight, or does that require a "real" living being? 

This makes me wonder what Lifelight would do to a lifeless on Nalthis given that they're the true zombies of the Cosmere (or at least as close to being zombies as cognitive shadows are to being ghosts). Probably nothing too unique -- I imagine that enough investiture of any type could turn a lifeless into something more life-like and possibly independent.

On a different note, I'm not in a position to ask Brandon anything (at least anytime soon), so I was wondering if anyone might be willing and able to ask some probing questions regarding this theory. Something like:

1. We see many instances of augmented age among embodied cognitive shadows. If Lift were a cognitive shadow attached to her body, would she have retained her youth indefinitely (given that's how she viewed herself), or is growing to a "mature" form inevitable (as we see with the god kings of Hallendren)?

-If Brandon says that she would have (or could have) retained her youth indefinitely as a cognitive shadow, that might indicate that he doesn't consider her to be a cognitive shadow.

2. Can a cognitive shadow like Kelsier or Vasher touch spren in the physical realm in the same way that Lift can?

-I have a feeling the answer will be "no," since we don't see the fused trying to snatch radiant spren -- but if the answer is "yes," (or that there would be some kind of interaction thanks to their connection to the cognitive realm, though not to the same degree as we see with Lift), then that could be evidence in favor of this theory.

[+Player22]

I like the theory but I can't get around the fact that she would have had to die first. There hasn't been any foreshadowing that I've picked up on where she was in danger right before she got her gift/curse so it would have to be Cultivation that offed her in order to return her. I don't see, as much as we're aware so far, a noble god doing that.

 

My own pet theory is that she's something of her own. Something more powerful than just a radiant but short of a herald or fused. Or possibly her powers are slightly different because she has something unique going on similar to a corrupted spren bond but not actually corrupted. Some mechanic is operating differently in her than everyone else.

Edited December 4, 2021 by Player22
Typo

[Psykopathic]

I'm pretty sure the Returned look however they look from their own perspective of how they should look. Vacheron has obviously learned to manipulate this because he can appear lookimg like a beggar or a Returned. So if Lift was functioning the same as a Returned she wouldn't age because she doesn't think she should age. Haven't read Warbreaker in a year or so but I'm pretty sure that's how that works.

[Sp00ks]

On 12/3/2021 at 9:42 PM, Player22 said:

My own pet theory is that she's something of her own. Something more powerful than just a radiant but short of a herald or fused. Or possibly her powers are slightly different because she has something unique going on similar to a corrupted spren bond but not actually corrupted. Some mechanic is operating differently in her than everyone else.

Why exactly would she be "more powerful than a radiant"? Her being able to metabolize life light through food isn't nessesarilly any more powerful than a Radiant sucking stormlight from a gem. Sure, sometimes it's more *convinient*, but there are also situations where it's less convinient. None of her abilities really seem better than other Radiants 

[Olmund]

On 12/4/2021 at 6:56 AM, Psykopathic said:

I'm pretty sure the Returned look however they look from their own perspective of how they should look. Vacheron has obviously learned to manipulate this because he can appear lookimg like a beggar or a Returned. So if Lift was functioning the same as a Returned she wouldn't age because she doesn't think she should age. Haven't read Warbreaker in a year or so but I'm pretty sure that's how that works.

Yes, that is the strongest objection to the theory, which is why I addressed it in my last two posts. What we need to determine is whether aging is involuntary to a certain extent (i.e., does investiture gravitate toward a "mature" form). We have examples of this with the God Kings of Hallendren (returned as babies, yet growing to adulthood). We also have some mildly corroborative evidence elsewhere (e.g., Tien's "ghost" seen in RoW has become an adult, and I do not believe we have seen "true spren" taking the form of children -- perhaps implying that all spiritual forms are mature -- at least when they reach a certain degree of investiture/intelligence).

[crème de la crèmling]

I'm super intrigued by this idea, though I agree that I haven't necessarily seen anything that suggests to me that Lift died, or that she has any other typical "signs" of being a Cognitive Shadow. As I recall, Dalinar can see the double image on Nale and Szeth, and I can't remember if he mentioned anything similar regarding Lift, despite interacting with her a lot. Maybe she is "stapled" onto that body really well! 

I also don't necessarily believe that perception of oneself totally dictates what manifests ... yeah, Lopen regrows his arm, but there are a lot of places in the novels where peoples' perceptions of themselves end up being wrong (and that's a good thing). Shallan is not as weak as she thinks she is; Navani is not the impostor as she believes herself to be; Kaladin isn't a failure for not being able to save everyone. But they sincerely believe these things, so much so that the belief causes them a lot of narrative grief, and yet the reader can see that it isn't actually true. So Lift's aging could fall into that ambiguous narrative space. She focuses a lot on "staying the same," but that doesn't mean that her perception of herself is exactly right. She's "not listening" to what's happening with her, and her oaths are centered around paying attention to the ignored and forgotten, so that's likely fuel for her next oath anyway. She's ignoring herself in a bid to not forget the little girl her mother knew and she's probably going to have to confront it.

There's also a theory re: the Heralds, that somehow they are more susceptible to widespread perception due to being Cognitive Shadows. So maybe Lift in this theory is having her self-perception challenged by the perception of the people around her--who expect her to grow?

My personal theory is that Cognitive Shadows struggle with changing from what they were cast as upon becoming a Cognitive Shadow, so I think it would be very interesting to find out that Lift, as a CS fueled by Cultivation, is somehow able to get around the typical problems associated with the Returned, the Heralds, etc, because she can actually change. Perhaps Cultivation is testing out a solution to the madness of the Heralds? Or maybe this is something that Cultivation didn't actually intend? That would be interesting, too!

On 12/2/2021 at 7:34 AM, Olmund said:

2. Can a cognitive shadow like Kelsier or Vasher touch spren in the physical realm in the same way that Lift can?

RoW Chapter 15, Zahel says that he can't see Syl, but suggests that he can sense her somehow. Not conclusive of anything, but doesn't sound very much like what Lift is doing.

3 hours ago, Olmund said:

I do not believe we have seen "true spren" taking the form of children

Rua, Lopen's honorspren, typically takes the form of a young boy, if I remember right. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

[Warbreaker]

Spoiler

We get a bit of an explanation in WB for what happens with child Returned (their bodies age normally until they reach their prime, while their minds age to adulthood very rapidly):

Quote

“I am,” Hopefinder said, watching Blushweaver with his too-young face. Like all younger Returned—the God King included—Hopefinder would continue to age until his body reached maturity. Then, he would stop aging—just over the brink into the prime adulthood—until he gave up his Breath.

He acted so much like an adult. Lightsong hadn’t interacted much with children, but some of his attendants—when training—were youths. Hopefinder was not like those. All accounts said that Hopefinder, like other young Returned, had matured very quickly during his first year of life, coming to think and speak as an adult while his body was still that of a young child.

But who knows how this applies to other Shadows, or to someone whose mind is, while younger than that of an adult, older than that of a small child.

[Cocoa]

On 11/18/2021 at 1:48 PM, Olmund said:

As for Cultivation not actually granting her wish, Wyndle seems overly fixated on the wording of Lift's wish, whereas I'm fairly certain Cultivation would have understood the intent behind Lift's wish (intent is really big for shards, after all). So I could definitely see her granting it in a way that Lift wouldn't understand, while still adhering to the original intent.

I'm reminded of the conversation between Shalash's two lackeys way back in WoK:

Quote

“If you want,” Av replied. “I figure there are better ways than the Old Magic. You never know what kind of curse you’ll end up with.”

“I could phrase my request perfectly,” Baxil said.

“Doesn’t work that way,” Av said. “It’s not a game, no matter how the stories try to put it. The Nightwatcher doesn’t trick you or twist your words. You ask a boon. She gives what she feels you deserve, then gives you a curse to go along with it. Sometimes related, sometimes not.”

It's possible that Wyndle has the same misunderstanding of the Old Magic that the general public has, and I don't recall anything from Dalinar's journey to the valley that would imply Cultivation plays by inherently different rules than the Nightwatcher, beyond power and understanding. So it could be that this is a case where Lift and Wyndle (and all of us) are fixated on what Lift asked for or even intended with her wish, while Cultivation gave her the Boon (and Curse, though much like Dalinar's pruning and Taravangian's mental changes the two may be one and the same for her) that she felt she deserved or needed in order to grow.

[SpinningSky]

The idea is thematically cool and interesting, but I find myself not inclined to believe it.

For one thing, I feel it'd be somehow boring to have most not-ordinary charachters being some variant of a Congitive Shadow  
I do see this argument in your favour: we know SA 6 should be her book, and her being a CS easily explains her surviving the time-lapse, assuming she can't already be Cultivation (if that is what happens) and also be a POV charachter, though that would definitly be quite something.

But in genera l see very little in the way of evidence to support this. 
Thinking about it brought me on quite the tangent, soooooo welcome to my TED talk 

 

I put some WoBs together that I found relevant or just somehow interesting, as a starting point for brainstorming. I bolded the most relevant sentences.
The spoiler tag is mostly for spacing.

 

Spoiler

 

WOBS on what LIFT IS:

Quote

Questioner

So Lift gets her awesomeness from food. Is that a Lift thing or is that an Edgedancer thing?

Brandon Sanderson

That is a Lift thing. She is a very specific thing, and what she is will come out more, as the series progresses. It's not just a little one-off, there is actually something more behind it, but it is not an Edgedancer thing.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018

 

Quote

Questioner

When Odium and Dalinar were having their meeting in Oathbringer, Odium seemed kinda freaked out by something. Could it possibly be related to how Lift can interact with spren in the physical world, and that might cause some problems for him, <seeing the impossible>?

Brandon Sanderson

He is weirded out by Lift, certainly. Lift is something that shouldn't exist, let's just say that. You'll find out why, probably in book 6? But she should not exist.

DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 29, 2019)

 

Quote

Gary Singer (paraphrased)

Could Lift convert food from other cosmere worlds into Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes. Lift's Spiritweb has something changed about it to allow converting mass to Investiture directly.

Out of Excuses 2016 (Sept. 23, 2016)

 

Quote

Ray745

Is Lift the only one who is able to see the afterimage around Szeth when he moves? And would she have seen that afterimage around him before he was brought back to life by Nalan?

Brandon Sanderson

Lift is seeing that Szeth's soul isn't quite attached to his body any longer. She is not the only one that can see it, but her special physiology is certainly helping her see it.

General Reddit 2016 (Dec. 5, 2016)

 

Quote

athos45678

Has anyone in the history of Roshar ever had Lift’s special physiology? Or is she like a whole new human

Brandon Sanderson

You could say anyone that has their DNA or spiritweb meddled with by the Nightwatcher is something new--that said, Lift is an experiment that hasn't been tried before.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 12, 2018)

 

SPECIFICS ON MECHANICS:

Quote

Argent

Does Lift turn food into Investiture directly or is it similar to the metals on--

Brandon Sanderson

Similar to the metals.

Argent

So like a gate?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Argent

Okay, that's good to know.

Brandon Sanderson

She can metabolize-- She can draw-- It's not actually the food, it's-- It's not like the metals, not exactly. It's not-- What she can do is she can metabolize into Investiture instead of sugar. Does that make sense?

Argent

Yeah.

Brandon Sanderson

We metabolize food into sugar. She can metabolize it into Investiture. Does that make sense?

Argent

That makes a lot of sense. (...)

Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015)

Quote

Laryyl (paraphrased)

[Can Lift] get Stormlight from spheres like normal or if it's just from food for her.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

She can only get it from food.

Laryyl (paraphrased)

Which [is it] related to her boon or her curse?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

RAFO.

Arcanum Unbounded Fort Collins signing (Nov. 29, 2016)

this last one might just be referring to the fact that sphere's are intended generally as holding stormlight and not lifelight, it is from 2016 after all

 

Quote

CaptainRyan (paraphrased)

If Lift touched a "dead" Shardblade would her experience be different than other proto-Radiants/Radiants?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes. Slightly different.

CaptainRyan (paraphrased)

Would you please expound on that?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No. *grins*

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

LIFT'S ORIGIN:

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

How do spren choose what human they'll bond with?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, it depends on the spren type. There's some spren that choose on their own, while there's other spren where it's done by committee. Wyndle, Lift's spren was placed with Lift by a committee. It's a culture difference. Some are free-spirited, others more organized.

Orem signing 2014 (Dec. 6, 2014)

 

Quote

Questioner

Her name, Lift, is it literally like 'lift', the sound, or is it translated from Rosharan, like the word lift?

Brandon Sanderson

It is translated from Rosharan.

Questioner

Is it a nickname?

Brandon Sanderson

So, I'll RAFO that. But that is actually, it's whatever in Rosharan...not in Rosh...in Reshi, whatever in Reshi...and Reshi is the Iriali language family, so...

Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016)

I copied cause I thought it was kind of interesting, Brandon RAFO'd a question regarding her name, why would that be something to RAFO? I think however that we don't have the evidence to talk about her origin

 

 

Quote

Alice aka Wetlander (paraphrased)

Is it relevant that Lift was ten when she stopped aging?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It isn't a coincidence.

Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)

again, WoB from 2016, might just be referring to the meeting with the nightwatcher\Cultivation

 

 

So to summarize what's in the WoBs I looked through and just some known facts: 

Lift is something very special only possible through an act of Cultivation, result of meddling with her spirit web. What she is and how she is however fits within a certain mechanic and is not a one-off thing, though Preservation's experiment on her is a first on Roshar. Wyndle guesses she has a stronger connection to the spiritual realm, which makes sense in how for instance she can see Szeth's afterimage.

She can only burn foods (not metals) and transforms the resulting energy as lifelight, with mechanics much like those of getting energy from digesting sugar. So she does generate the investiture from the food, not quite like metals work though there's a parallel there.

She is slightly different from other radiants (at least in how she would react to a dead shardblade), still Wyndle bonded her as he would have a normal radiant (Brandon brought her up as an example of different spren politics and culture in regards to bonding), though the decision was made because she had been touched by Cultivation.

Finally, we know that she asked "When everything else is going wrong, I want to be the same. I want to stay me. Not become someone else".

So I put these together with the following info:

About the Nightwatcher, from Coppermind:

Quote

Cultivation made the Nightwatcher in such a way that she is not shaped by people's perception or belief of her, unlike most spren. 

About bondsmiths, from the coppermind:

Quote

However, as most Radiants primarily make use of Stormlight, this is perhaps most useful for the Stormfather's Bondsmith, although the other Bondsmiths can still generate their respective Lights for personal use. It is uncertain how exactly this is done, but it is not necessary for the Bondsmith to be holding some Light already in order to pull more over into the Physical Realm.^[39] The exact mechanics of this ability are unknown, but it seems most likely that they are pulling it directly from the Spiritual Realm.

About bonding multiple Spren:

Quote

Questioner

Could someone bond with two spren and wield two swords?

Brandon Sanderson

It is theoretically possible, but the spren aren't going to like it.  So you are not going to see it very often.

Firefight Seattle Public Library signing (Jan. 7, 2015)

 

 

So my thesis: Lift has been bonded to the nightwatcher since she was ten, and is already the third bondsmith

This explains how she can self generate lifelight, which is a power supposed to be availible to the nightwatcher's Bondsmith, this explains her connection to the spiritual realm, the fact that she's not aware of the bond makes sense with what we've seen with Cultivation's effect on Dalinar, as well as Shallan's shenanigans with multiple bonds. 
The fact that she is is a "first experiment" makes me think it might be a special kind of bond, or that she might actually be the first bondsmith bonded to the Nightwatcher (I didn't find evidence of previous nightwathcer bondsmiths but please correct me if I'm wrong)

She is also bonded to Twindle, multiple bonds are possible.

and Finally, she somehow got her wish, as she got bonded to the one spren which is not affected by people's thoughts and is somehow more independent in that regard. I do believe that the Nightwatcher\Cultivation will do whatever they please when it comes to blessings and boons as Cocoa said, but I like to think there should be some connection.
How this is tied to her not aging I'm not sure.

 

There might be something else going on, and as I sad I'm not fully explaining the not aging with known mechanics. 
However I think that if you accept my reasoning you can believe that once we get into bondsmith territory, plus her unknown origin, there are a number of ways those things can make sense.

 

What do you guys think?

 

 

 

 

[Zrogezrg]

I like the bondsmith idea more that the CS one.

Weirdest think about Lift, in my opinion, is that she can touch spren's manifestations in physical realm, like Windle's vines. Maybe this is some mumbo jumbo spiritual Cohesion. But I am not sure wether this consumes her awesomeness or not. To me it seems like a think she can just do. The only think I can compare it to is when Dalinar grabs realms prior to summoning perpendicularity.

She also could speak with some girl in Edgedancer who was speaking some weird street dialect, maybe this is something similar to Dalinar connecting to Azish guard to speak Azish. But this could be explained by being edgedancer probably. 

Idea about generating lifelight is cool, but why then she needs to metabolise food to get it? That seems much weaker that what Dalinar can do with stormlight. But again, this may be that this is just how bondsmith differ from each other.

Another aspect that is crazy is that she can pop in and out off visions from Stormfather. The only other being that we see can do that is Odium... And Wit when he visits Kal in nightmare in RoW. This could be some bondsmith spiritual adhesion stuff.

P.S. I am not sure, but Lift is most likely the last person we know of to visit Nightwatcher, so it could be that there is no more access to old magic in the valley, but instead, one must offer some food to little Reshi goddess to demand some boon