Szeth & Moash: They're More Similar Than You Think [Discuss]

[bmcclure7]

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

You're kidding right?

Odium doesn't care about who was there first in the slightest, he's using them.

As I said their stupid not immoral.

[Frustration]

Just now, bmcclure7 said:

As I said their stupid not immoral.

Do you really think Nale buys it for a second?

Nale who watched Odium destroy not only one planet but reduce multiple civilizations down to the stone age?

Nale knows the truth, he just doesn't care.

[bmcclure7]

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Do you really think Nale buys it for a second?

Nale who watched Odium destroy not only one planet but reduce multiple civilizations down to the stone age?

Nale knows the truth, he just doesn't care.

Nale is crazy and beside by that logic the human reduce singer civilization lobitmised animals.  But that logic Kaliden is immoral.  

[Frustration]

Just now, bmcclure7 said:

Nale is crazy

And yet all the Skybreakers follow him.

His insanity has more to do with his emotions than logic

1 minute ago, bmcclure7 said:

by that logic the human reduce singer civilization lobitmised animals.

The human has a name Melishi.

2 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

But that logic Kaliden is immoral.  

*Kaladin.

And no.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

12 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Yes give  The singers are rightful land back so evil.  How dare he seek to restore land to unabused and slave minority. And since you can't see I'm rolling my eyes. 

A desolation causes 9 out of 10 people to die. You are completely fine with that? 

If nale actually cared about giving singers back their land, he had 4500 years of time trying to make singers and humans coexist. 

He knows very well that odium does not care about anybody in this war, he only wants soldiers.

Just because singers were a enslaved minority does not justify genocide. Most normal humans on roshar don't even know that parshmen were sentient once. And humans have been living on the planet for 4000 years. It is their home too now. 

Nale has gone full evil to avoid the torture at the end of a desolation he would face as a herald. 

[Milk]

I wasn't alone in thinking there are parallels between the two wielders of Jezrien's Blade!

One of the things that I thought of, building on your talk about guilt, was how Moash claims that "he was a product of his culture", how he rejects responsibility. (Although this isn't really elaborated on in RoW.) Szeth, on the other hand, talks about how having simply followed orders does not absolve a man. 

A fundamental theme of Stormlight is choice, and Szeth telling Moash how he could have chosen to not be a cruel murderer (which Renarin also shows!) would be interesting. 

[bmcclure7]

3 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

A desolation causes 9 out of 10 people to die. You are completely fine with that? 

If nale actually cared about giving singers back their land, he had 4500 years of time trying to make singers and humans coexist. 

He knows very well that odium does not care about anybody in this war, he only wants soldiers.

Just because singers were a enslaved minority does not justify genocide. Most normal humans on roshar don't even know that parshmen were sentient once. And humans have been living on the planet for 4000 years. It is their home too now. 

Nale has gone full evil to avoid the torture at the end of a desolation he would face as a herald. 

 The humans The lottomized the entire race of singers and then inslaved them.  By your own logic this makes Kaliden immoral for supporting humans. 

 If Nale was trying to avoid torture then he wouldn't get involved at all.  Just like the rest of the Heralds. 

Edited November 17, 2021 by bmcclure7

[bmcclure7]

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

And yet all the Skybreakers follow him.

His insanity has more to do with his emotions than logic

The human has a name Melishi.

*Kaladin.

And no.

Melishi didn't enslave all the Parshmen. 

And keeping with your logic (the side you support did terrible things 4 thousand years ago so your immoral for supporting them) then yes he is. 

[Frustration]

7 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Melishi didn't enslave all the Parshmen. 

He's the one who stripped them of their minds and then decided not to release her.

9 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

And keeping with your logic (the side you support did terrible things 4 thousand years ago so your immoral for supporting them) then yes he is. 

Not their side, Odium.

If Germany goes to war today there is nothing inherently immoral about that. But if Hittler came back from the dead and we saw a repeat of WW2 then there would be a strong moral component

All the Radiants and spren from the time of the recreance are dead, Odium is very much alive and very much in charge

[KaladinWorldsinger]

20 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 The humans The lottomized the entire race of singers and then inslaved them.  By your own logic this makes Kaliden immoral for supporting humans. 

 If Nale was trying to avoid torture then he wouldn't get involved at all.  Just like the rest of the Heralds. 

Did the humans do very insanely horrible things to the singers? Yes. Absolutely yes 

Should they be genocides? NO.

Simple question: will you murder a baby because his parents, grandparents were Nazis and horrible to jews? Because some of the fused use that justification. Odium doesn't even need justification to kill a baby, he will do it happily. Nale sided with THAT guy. That's just wrong

This isn't that hard, bro

[bmcclure7]

10 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Did the humans do very insanely horrible things to the singers? Yes. Absolutely yes 

Should they be genocides? NO.

Simple question: will you murder a baby because his parents, grandparents were Nazis and horrible to jews? Because some of the fused use that justification. Odium doesn't even need justification to kill a baby, he will do it happily. Nale sided with THAT guy. That's just wrong

This isn't that hard, bro

Nail isnt genociding anyone. 

[Frustration]

3 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Nail isnt genociding anyone. 

But he's supporting someone who is.

Also take into account the thousands of budding Radiants he killed simply for being Radiant.

[bmcclure7]

On 11/17/2021 at 11:41 PM, Frustration said:

But he's supporting someone who is.

Also take into account the thousands of budding Radiants he killed simply for being Radiant.

Wrong on both accounts so far we only now of one fuse that attempted genocide.  Odium but it very clear that he needs humans alive.

 

He killed Radiants for commit crimes that would be punishable by death and only after getting a lawful death warrant.  If that makes him evil then ever officer in Roshar is evil.

[Frustration]

3 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Wrong on both accounts so far we only now of one fuse that attempted genocide.  Odium but it very clear that he needs humans alive.

Do you seririously believe that the fused have been opperating outside of Odium's control? Leshwi attempted to spare humans and was deemed a traitor by Odium immediatly.

1. Ashyn - 99% of a planet died inumberable casualties
2. The desolations - Civilization reduced to the stone age multiple times, potentially billinons of casualties
3. Raboniels plauge - roughly 1 in ten hunads died, hundreds of thousands of casualties

All of which Odium was perfectly fine with.

3 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

He killed Radiants for commit crimes that would be punishable by death and only after getting a lawful death warrant.  If that makes him evil then ever officer in Roshar is evil.

1. He intentionally searched through their history looking for something, that is not blind justice. That is targeting.
2. He intentionally altered laws so that they would break them.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Frustration

[bmcclure7]

5 hours ago, Frustration said:

Do you seririously believe that the fused have been opperating outside of Odium's control? Leshwi attempted to spare humans and was deemed a traitor by Odium immediatly.

1. Ashyn - 99% of a planet died inumberable casualties
2. The desolations - Civilization reduced to the stone age multiple times, potentially billinons of casualties
3. Raboniels plauge - roughly 1 in ten hunads died, hundreds of thousands of casualties

All of which Odium was perfectly fine with.

1. He intentionally searched through their history looking for something, that is not blind justice. That is targeting.
2. He intentionally altered laws so that they would break them.

We have no idea about the destruction of ashy.

Odium has been clear he needs humanity as his army. He clearly needs them alive.

No,  He doesn't alter laws, That would be illegal. Kings and other legitimate authorities change laws and When they changed it in his advantage he adapts.

[Frustration]

6 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Odium has been clear he needs humanity as his army. He clearly needs them alive.

Needs humanity or Roshar, in OB he says that if he were free he would kill Cultivation, break the remaining splinters of Honor and leave.

It wasn't until RoW when he agrees to stay that he decides to use humanity, which was after Nale joined him.

8 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

No,  He doesn't alter laws, That would be illegal. Kings and other legitimate authorities change laws and When they changed it in his advantage he adapts.

In Edgedanncer he had the prince make unauthorised surgebinding illegal, that was not their decision, he came in and said, "do this". So the crime he was hoping to use to kill them, is the fact that someone was unintentionally surgebinding.

 

Surgebinders can be evil.