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Lirin, love him or hate him, is of Honor: he keeps his oath to a fault. 

So is he going to get a spren? I hope so. What kind?

Well, here's my controversial idea: Lirin will bond an honorspren and become a Windrunner, and this has already been foreshadowed. Hear me out.

Kaladin became a surgeon, at least temporarily, without breaking his oaths to protect. Being a surgeon, Kaladin discovered, qualifies as protecting people. Although Kaladin realized that due to the circumstances would eventually need to fight to protect, for some time in Rhythm of War he was simply working as a surgeon, with no intention of ever violently protecting anyone ever again, and his bond with Syl was just fine, unlike the time he almost broke his oath by betraying Elhokar. 

But would Lirin be breaking his oath if he refused to violently protect someone when necessary? Unlikely. Radiant oaths/ideals are subject to the interpretation of each radiant and spren. This has been confirmed. And since Kaladin's Third Ideal was "I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right," we know that Windrunners don't have to protect when it is wrong to do so. If Lirin (and perhaps his spren) think violence is wrong, their interpretation of wrong-ness defines what breaks the ideals and what doesn't.

It might even be enough for Lirin alone to think that he is keeping his oath, even if his spren disagrees. This is not yet clear. 

But does Lirin interpret his actions as protecting people through non-violent means? Or does he practice non-violence even though he thinks it means he can't protect people? Well, wasn't one of his reasons for avoiding war that when he fought back he got people killed? Getting people killed is the opposite of protecting them. I think he clearly thinks that he protects people specifically by refusing to be violent, and he probably also thinks he is protecting them by being a surgeon, as Kaladin did. Even if he doesn't use the word "protect" when thinking of surgery, surely the explicit use of that exact word isn't required there.

Some may think Lirin wouldn't want to become a Windrunner. I agree. But it probably doesn't matter. Kaladin had no idea he was bonding Syl until it had already happened. Lirin could bond an honorspren without even realizing it. He might be deeply disturbed to discover he had formed a Windrunner bond. That is one reason I hope he bonds an honorspren. Such potential for drama! Lirin's potential feeling about the bond probably don't change the likelihood of the bond occurring. If he protects people as a matter of oath, he's suited to bond an honorspren, whether he thinks he is or not. He has only to think he is keeping his oaths to protect as long as it is right, not to think that being a Windrunner doesn't entail evil violence or killing your spren. 

Let's talk about the drama. Imagine Lirin being thrilled to discover his spren didn't die when he refused to kill someone. Or imagine Lirin recovering from the guilt of having caused Tien's death by fighting back, and therefore with a clean conscience killing a would-be murderer. Or imagine if Lirin started to understand he could kill to protect, but was undecided, made the wrong decision, and killed his spren. Imagine a desperate leader trying to force an unwilling Lirin to fight among the Windrunners, and Lirin fleeing, perhaps with Kaladin's help. Imagine Lirin trying to understand his bond and his oaths as Kaladin tried to help him. If Lirin bonded an oddball honorspren pacifist or an oddball honorspren who is just ornery and respects Lirins pacifism while other honorspren shy away, that spen could be a lot of fun to read about. Or if a normal honorspren bonded with him, respecting Lirin's honorable oath-keeping but disagreeing with his methods, imagine the arguments, the weirdness, and the tension. What if Lirin accidentally swore the first ideal while arguing with Kaladin or someone? You think you're so high and mighty, Knight Radiant? Well *I* put life before death, strength before weakness, and journey before destination! I think I always have! You don't get to claim that your better than us mortals because... Oh no. What is happening to me? And Lirin starts to glow....

And there's a reason I think he should be a Windrunner instead of a member of some other radiant order. It isn't just wishful thinking. The Windrunners' spren are honorspren. And like I said, Lirin is of Honor. Lirin is of Honor more than anyone else in on Roshar, because, no matter what the cost, he keeps his oaths. And that is what Honor, and I guess honorspren, values above all. 

And yes, this has been foreshadowed. Kaladin speculate that Syl could become a shardblade surgical instrument and suspect that the bond could be used in other ways if the radiants weren't constantly distracted by war. Obviously that applies to Kaladin, but also, potentially, to Lirin. And Kaladin's and Lirin's character arcs were clearly meant to be parallel, ending with their double baptism in the storm as they fell off the tower of Urithiru. 

That was where Kaladin swore the fourth ideal. Will Lirin swear his first?

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Hi! You posted this topic twice.

I don't think Lirin will become a Windrunner simply because protection is not a big theme around him. His stubborn insistence on letter of his oaths makes his temperament more like a skybreaker anyway. He was ready to heal people and send them off to their deaths, completely missing the point of healing them in the first place, I feel.

I think it is morr likely that he will become a edgedancer or stoneward. Edgedancer because there was a lot of focus on him to 'listen' in RoW. Edgedancers are also combat medics, which is an interesting contrast with his job.

Stonewards are the quintessential soldiers and I think that makes an interesting contrast to Lirin. He is stubborn enough to be a stoneward but exactly in the opposite way. If the third ideal of stonewards is something like 'i will do what I must' then this could be the moment Lirin kills someone. 

Well my thoughts on this are scattered. I don't think Lirin will become a Windrunner, he isn't that big on friends or protecting or leading. Who knows. I could be wrong

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8 hours ago, Vin(Diesel) said:

Lirin, love him or hate him, is of Honor: he keeps his oath to a fault. 

So is he going to get a spren? I hope so. What kind?

Well, here's my controversial idea: Lirin will bond an honorspren and become a Windrunner, and this has already been foreshadowed. Hear me out.

Kaladin became a surgeon, at least temporarily, without breaking his oaths to protect. Being a surgeon, Kaladin discovered, qualifies as protecting people. Although Kaladin realized that due to the circumstances would eventually need to fight to protect, for some time in Rhythm of War he was simply working as a surgeon, with no intention of ever violently protecting anyone ever again, and his bond with Syl was just fine, unlike the time he almost broke his oath by betraying Elhokar. 

But would Lirin be breaking his oath if he refused to violently protect someone when necessary? Unlikely. Radiant oaths/ideals are subject to the interpretation of each radiant and spren. This has been confirmed. And since Kaladin's Third Ideal was "I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right," we know that Windrunners don't have to protect when it is wrong to do so. If Lirin (and perhaps his spren) think violence is wrong, their interpretation of wrong-ness defines what breaks the ideals and what doesn't.

It might even be enough for Lirin alone to think that he is keeping his oath, even if his spren disagrees. This is not yet clear. 

But does Lirin interpret his actions as protecting people through non-violent means? Or does he practice non-violence even though he thinks it means he can't protect people? Well, wasn't one of his reasons for avoiding war that when he fought back he got people killed? Getting people killed is the opposite of protecting them. I think he clearly thinks that he protects people specifically by refusing to be violent, and he probably also thinks he is protecting them by being a surgeon, as Kaladin did. Even if he doesn't use the word "protect" when thinking of surgery, surely the explicit use of that exact word isn't required there.

Some may think Lirin wouldn't want to become a Windrunner. I agree. But it probably doesn't matter. Kaladin had no idea he was bonding Syl until it had already happened. Lirin could bond an honorspren without even realizing it. He might be deeply disturbed to discover he had formed a Windrunner bond. That is one reason I hope he bonds an honorspren. Such potential for drama! Lirin's potential feeling about the bond probably don't change the likelihood of the bond occurring. If he protects people as a matter of oath, he's suited to bond an honorspren, whether he thinks he is or not. He has only to think he is keeping his oaths to protect as long as it is right, not to think that being a Windrunner doesn't entail evil violence or killing your spren. 

Let's talk about the drama. Imagine Lirin being thrilled to discover his spren didn't die when he refused to kill someone. Or imagine Lirin recovering from the guilt of having caused Tien's death by fighting back, and therefore with a clean conscience killing a would-be murderer. Or imagine if Lirin started to understand he could kill to protect, but was undecided, made the wrong decision, and killed his spren. Imagine a desperate leader trying to force an unwilling Lirin to fight among the Windrunners, and Lirin fleeing, perhaps with Kaladin's help. Imagine Lirin trying to understand his bond and his oaths as Kaladin tried to help him. If Lirin bonded an oddball honorspren pacifist or an oddball honorspren who is just ornery and respects Lirins pacifism while other honorspren shy away, that spen could be a lot of fun to read about. Or if a normal honorspren bonded with him, respecting Lirin's honorable oath-keeping but disagreeing with his methods, imagine the arguments, the weirdness, and the tension. What if Lirin accidentally swore the first ideal while arguing with Kaladin or someone? You think you're so high and mighty, Knight Radiant? Well *I* put life before death, strength before weakness, and journey before destination! I think I always have! You don't get to claim that your better than us mortals because... Oh no. What is happening to me? And Lirin starts to glow....

And there's a reason I think he should be a Windrunner instead of a member of some other radiant order. It isn't just wishful thinking. The Windrunners' spren are honorspren. And like I said, Lirin is of Honor. Lirin is of Honor more than anyone else in on Roshar, because, no matter what the cost, he keeps his oaths. And that is what Honor, and I guess honorspren, values above all. 

And yes, this has been foreshadowed. Kaladin speculate that Syl could become a shardblade surgical instrument and suspect that the bond could be used in other ways if the radiants weren't constantly distracted by war. Obviously that applies to Kaladin, but also, potentially, to Lirin. And Kaladin's and Lirin's character arcs were clearly meant to be parallel, ending with their double baptism in the storm as they fell off the tower of Urithiru. 

That was where Kaladin swore the fourth ideal. Will Lirin swear his first?

Lirin has decated himself to the dark eyed farms of a tiny village.  People no body else remembers. He is the perfect edgedancer . 

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I can see Lirin becoming a radiant, but probably not a WindRunner. He’s too convinced his method of non-confrontation is correct to try anything else. 
I’m not a big fan of Lirin, in a way he was like Taravangian, too proud to admit he was wrong. Seeing that Kaladin inspired hope in people, he called them fools that would be crushed. But he’s starting to change a little, accepting Kaladin at the end of RoW. 

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10 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

I don't think Lirin will become a Windrunner simply because protection is not a big theme around him. His stubborn insistence on letter of his oaths makes his temperament more like a skybreaker anyway. He was ready to heal people and send them off to their deaths, completely missing the point of healing them in the first place, I feel.

 

 

1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

I can see Lirin becoming a radiant, but probably not a WindRunner. He’s too convinced his method of non-confrontation is correct to try anything else. 
I’m not a big fan of Lirin, in a way he was like Taravangian, too proud to admit he was wrong. Seeing that Kaladin inspired hope in people, he called them fools that would be crushed. But he’s starting to change a little, accepting Kaladin at the end of RoW. 

What you both said made me relies something. Lirin and Taravangian are the same, just on opposite ends of the spectrum. Taravangian thinks it is ok to do anything, no matter how horrible, if it is in the name of the “greater good”. Any pain he causes in the here and now is worth it if “in the end” the day is saved. Whereas Lirin is the exact opposite. All his actions are just worrying about what is happening here and now and right in front of him and what he has direct control over. He does not care if Odium enslaves the whole world as long as today, he is safe, and he did what was “right” in the moment. He is constantly making choices that buy him or those he loves a little bit of peace in the moment at the expense of their future. Taravangian sells the present to save the future. Lirin sells the future to save the present. And I can’t decide which is worse.  

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It would be really interesting if Lirin ever bonded a spren, but I don't think he would want to. Lirin would not be able to bond any other spren because they may inflict with his surgeon oaths. Any of the oaths could force him to hurt someone if it needed to happen, and I don't think that Lirin would ever take that risk. There could be radiants that are not warriors, but in the current era of radiants, they will be pushed to be a warrior. They just need more radiants on the battle field, so Lirin would be worried if he had to hurt someone. So Lirin would never take a spren.

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1 hour ago, lukaash said:

It would be really interesting if Lirin ever bonded a spren, but I don't think he would want to. Lirin would not be able to bond any other spren because they may inflict with his surgeon oaths. Any of the oaths could force him to hurt someone if it needed to happen, and I don't think that Lirin would ever take that risk. There could be radiants that are not warriors, but in the current era of radiants, they will be pushed to be a warrior. They just need more radiants on the battle field, so Lirin would be worried if he had to hurt someone. So Lirin would never take a spren.

I dont think that would be a barrier, we already have a spren that successfully refuses to become a shardblade and takes a non-lethal form instead.  And we've seen Radiants that will never be fighters, Stump comes to mind.  I think he'd do better as a Truthwatcher, and I would like to see a classic one in the supporting cast. 

Although it might be interesting to see him use Edgedancer Friction to prevent illness by preventing anything from touching or sticking to his hands during his Doctorly duties, or I guess when he doesn't have enough stormlight for ReGrowth for plot reasons.  Hmm, maybe he becomes an Enlightened Dustbringer and gets Abrasion and some variant Division?

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I have always thought that Lirin was meant for more than just Kaladin's slightly jerky father. I think that both Edgedancer and Windrunner would work for him, he has several qualities of both. Edgedancer seems like the more likely option to me, mostly because the only "foreshadowing" I have seen for Lirin becoming a windrunner wouldn't be possible. Sadly, Syl (or any other Spren) becoming a surgical tool would not be effective as Shardblades can't cut flesh. I agree that Lirin does always keep his oaths, but that can be a quality of any radiant order except maybe Lightweavers. My reason for thinking that Lirin would be an Edgedancer are

  • as @bmcclure7 said, he does a wonderful job of remembering those who were forgotten
  • I feel like Lirin becoming a windrunner, even one that doesn't go into battle, would be like accepting the Kaladin was right all along. Lirin following in Kal's footsteps seems wrong to me. 
  • Lirin loves to heal people. Coincidentally, one of the Edgedancer surges is Progression. An Edgedancer with actual surgeon's knowledge hasn't been seen yet, and I think that Lirin with this ability would become the perfect surgeon. Anybody who is hurt could come to him; he would use stormlight to heal major wounds, but could also use his surgeon's knowledge to heal any injuries too small or too old for stormlight. 
  • This doesn't really apply, but I was thinking about how the other Edgedancer surge is Abrasion. There has always been friction between Kaladin and his father, so just the idea that Lirin becoming a radiant would help him to remove friction makes me absurdly happy.
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On 8.11.2021 at 7:31 AM, Vin(Diesel) said:

Lirin, love him or hate him, is of Honor: he keeps his oath to a fault. 

So is he going to get a spren? I hope so. What kind?

Well, here's my controversial idea: Lirin will bond an honorspren and become a Windrunner, and this has already been foreshadowed. Hear me out.

Keeping your oaths to a fault makes you a Skybreaker, not a Windrunner.

You could argue that Kaladin, by putting peer pressure on his men to save Dalinar, acted dishonorably. His promise to them was to save them. His actions reduced their chances at that undertaking. That is the difference between a Skybreaker and a Windrunner. Lirin would have had Bridge Four flee on.

Swearing to the Hippocratic Oath or a Rosharan version thereof should be perfectly possible.

17 hours ago, KnightsOfHonor said:

Taravangian sells the present to save the future. Lirin sells the future to save the present. And I can’t decide which is worse.  

Lirin, because Taravangian at least saves somebody.

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51 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

You could argue that Kaladin, by putting peer pressure on his men to save Dalinar, acted dishonorably. His promise to them was to save them. His actions reduced their chances at that undertaking. That is the difference between a Skybreaker and a Windrunner. Lirin would have had Bridge Four flee on.

Kaladin's men were expressing a desire to help before he said anything. Kaladin himself was the resistance at first.  

52 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Lirin, because Taravangian at least saves somebody.

So far, all Taravangian managed to save was Karbranth, while betraying the rest of Roshar and possibly the Cosmere, while making himself into an emperor/martyr in the process. I'm not a fan of Lirin, but at least he's starting to change.  And while he thinks his way is best, at least he doesn't act like he's the only capable surgeon on Roshar. 

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8 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

Kaladin's men were expressing a desire to help before he said anything. Kaladin himself was the resistance at first.  

Yet he eventually yielded. A Skybreaker wouldn't have.

8 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

So far, all Taravangian managed to save was Karbranth,

He owes most to his city.

8 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

 while betraying the rest of Roshar and possibly the Cosmere,

Betray? Deceive, certainly. But for a betrayal he would have to owe loyalty to them in the first place. You could argue that he did what his duty required.

8 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

while making himself into an emperor/martyr in the process.

Indeed. I have to point out that modesty or selflessness are not necessary parts of honor. Honor requires that you do not shirk duties out of selfishness, but profiting from doing your duties is not necessarily wrong.

8 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

I'm not a fan of Lirin, but at least he's starting to change.

Nor is change a necessary part of honor.

8 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

And while he thinks his way is best, at least he doesn't act like he's the only capable surgeon on Roshar. 

Well, Taravangian is the most intelligent man on Roshar. Sometimes. That is not "as if".
And he is the only monarch of Kharbranth.

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16 hours ago, Morningtide said:

I have always thought that Lirin was meant for more than just Kaladin's slightly jerky father. I think that both Edgedancer and Windrunner would work for him, he has several qualities of both. Edgedancer seems like the more likely option to me, mostly because the only "foreshadowing" I have seen for Lirin becoming a windrunner wouldn't be possible. Sadly, Syl (or any other Spren) becoming a surgical tool would not be effective as Shardblades can't cut flesh. I agree that Lirin does always keep his oaths, but that can be a quality of any radiant order except maybe Lightweavers. My reason for thinking that Lirin would be an Edgedancer are

  • as @bmcclure7 said, he does a wonderful job of remembering those who were forgotten
  • I feel like Lirin becoming a windrunner, even one that doesn't go into battle, would be like accepting the Kaladin was right all along. Lirin following in Kal's footsteps seems wrong to me. 
  • Lirin loves to heal people. Coincidentally, one of the Edgedancer surges is Progression. An Edgedancer with actual surgeon's knowledge hasn't been seen yet, and I think that Lirin with this ability would become the perfect surgeon. Anybody who is hurt could come to him; he would use stormlight to heal major wounds, but could also use his surgeon's knowledge to heal any injuries too small or too old for stormlight. 
  • This doesn't really apply, but I was thinking about how the other Edgedancer surge is Abrasion. There has always been friction between Kaladin and his father, so just the idea that Lirin becoming a radiant would help him to remove friction makes me absurdly happy.

I like these points a lot, especially the combination of Progression on another person which is of limited use after an injury is too old, and the person has "internalized" it in some way Cognitively. Imagine if resetting or dressing a wound a certain way allowed the person to "regain hope" enough for Progression to work on it better, which would allow him to surgically adjust it further towards full healing, and so on...?

And as for Lirin using Abrasion ("slickness"), imagine if he bonded an "enlightened" cultivationspren, having been touched by Sja-anat the way that Glys and Tumi voluntarily underwent. What would the "part-Odium" version of Abrasion become? We saw Renarin's (and Rlain's) Surge of Illumination become internal in effect, showing the Surgebinder visions instead of creating illusions for others to see; what if the "slickness" granted by an enlightened cultivationspren were also internal?

That sounds maybe a little too much like Connection manipulation, though.

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1 hour ago, robardin said:

And as for Lirin using Abrasion ("slickness"), imagine if he bonded an "enlightened" cultivationspren, having been touched by Sja-anat the way that Glys and Tumi voluntarily underwent. What would the "part-Odium" version of Abrasion become? We saw Renarin's (and Rlain's) Surge of Illumination become internal in effect, showing the Surgebinder visions instead of creating illusions for others to see; what if the "slickness" granted by an enlightened cultivationspren were also internal?

That sounds maybe a little too much like Connection manipulation, though.

Oh, I didn't think of the idea of enlightened Abrasion. That makes a lot of sense. I like the idea that an enlightened surge turns the surge from external to internal. 

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3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Keeping your oaths to a fault makes you a Skybreaker, not a Windrunner.

That is a flaw that any order can have not just Skybreakers.

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1 hour ago, robardin said:

I like these points a lot, especially the combination of Progression on another person which is of limited use after an injury is too old, and the person has "internalized" it in some way Cognitively. Imagine if resetting or dressing a wound a certain way allowed the person to "regain hope" enough for Progression to work on it better, which would allow him to surgically adjust it further towards full healing, and so on...?

And as for Lirin using Abrasion ("slickness"), imagine if he bonded an "enlightened" cultivationspren, having been touched by Sja-anat the way that Glys and Tumi voluntarily underwent. What would the "part-Odium" version of Abrasion become? We saw Renarin's (and Rlain's) Surge of Illumination become internal in effect, showing the Surgebinder visions instead of creating illusions for others to see; what if the "slickness" granted by an enlightened cultivationspren were also internal?

That sounds maybe a little too much like Connection manipulation, though.

I think a lot of people have had a similar idea, but I agree, it seems a little too close to Adhesion/Connection. But I do like the idea of Lirin as an Edgedancer. I spent most of the book waiting to hear Lirin complain about why Kaladin couldn't have been one of the orders that can heal. That would have been funny, and somewhat stereotypical of a disappointed father.

2 minutes ago, Morningtide said:

Oh, I didn't think of the idea of enlightened Abrasion. That makes a lot of sense. I like the idea that an enlightened surge turns the surge from external to internal. 

I just realized how much sense the enlightening/corrupting (I like the term blending, myself) of a spren creates a radiant with internalized abilities.  Raboniel's conversation with Venli on the way to Uritheru even supports it, with how she describes radiants are outwardly focused as opposed to Fuzed being inwardly focused.

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Yet he eventually yielded. A Skybreaker wouldn't have.

He owes most to his city.

Betray? Deceive, certainly. But for a betrayal he would have to owe loyalty to them in the first place. You could argue that he did what his duty required.

Indeed. I have to point out that modesty or selflessness are not necessary parts of honor. Honor requires that you do not shirk duties out of selfishness, but profiting from doing your duties is not necessarily wrong.

Nor is change a necessary part of honor.

Well, Taravangian is the most intelligent man on Roshar. Sometimes. That is not "as if".
And he is the only monarch of Kharbranth.

A skybreaker wouldn't have tried to free slaves in the first place, as long as slavery was legal.

He still sold out the rest of his entire home world to save his city, despite evidence that his Diagram was flawed. And he did that more out of pride than anything else.

I admit there's some grey area about whether it was a deception or a betrayal, but I maintain that he acted mostly out of pride.

Taravangian claimed he did everything to be in a better position to negotiate with Odium, but as Dalinar accused, he probably also did it to become his definition of the greatest king ever, not just to protect people. I think he wanted to prove the people who accused him of being of diminished capacity wrong.

Change is a necessary part of honor when you're in the wrong, look at Dalinar.

Being the most intelligent doesn't mean he was always right, and it definitely doesn't mean he should decide everything on his own.  And the fact that he believed he was the only one capable of that is pure pride and arrogance. Acting out of pride is not of honor.

Lirin is the better man, and I think one worthy of a spren bond. At least, potentially.

Just now, Frustration said:

That is a flaw that any order can have not just Skybreakers.

Agreed.

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21 hours ago, KnightsOfHonor said:

 

What you both said made me relies something. Lirin and Taravangian are the same, just on opposite ends of the spectrum. Taravangian thinks it is ok to do anything, no matter how horrible, if it is in the name of the “greater good”. Any pain he causes in the here and now is worth it if “in the end” the day is saved. Whereas Lirin is the exact opposite. All his actions are just worrying about what is happening here and now and right in front of him and what he has direct control over. He does not care if Odium enslaves the whole world as long as today, he is safe, and he did what was “right” in the moment. He is constantly making choices that buy him or those he loves a little bit of peace in the moment at the expense of their future. Taravangian sells the present to save the future. Lirin sells the future to save the present. And I can’t decide which is worse.  

 OK so you say they're just the same and then go on to explain how they're direct opposites.

Me personally much prefer Lirin.   He sticks to his principles even to his own hurt.  He treats his enemies  As well as everyone else. In this way he reminds me a little bit of a wind runner even if he does have much more Synthesis with the edgedancers.  

 

He also a very humble man.  He knows there is nothing he can do to stop odium.  He's not even a radiant hes a surgeon. And to be quite honest he realizes that other people smarter and more powerful than him already have it handled.  He might not be able to save the world, or change society but he knows he can save the person in front of them so that's what he dose. 

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3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Keeping your oaths to a fault makes you a Skybreaker, not a Windrunner.

You could argue that Kaladin, by putting peer pressure on his men to save Dalinar, acted dishonorably. His promise to them was to save them. His actions reduced their chances at that undertaking. That is the difference between a Skybreaker and a Windrunner. Lirin would have had Bridge Four flee on.

Swearing to the Hippocratic Oath or a Rosharan version thereof should be perfectly possible.

Lirin, because Taravangian at least saves somebody.

Lirin has been saving people for years. He also killed far less. 

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1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

He also a very humble man.  He knows there is nothing he can do to stop odium.  He's not even a radiant hes a surgeon. And to be quite honest he realizes that other people smarter and more powerful than him already have it handled.  He might not be able to save the world, or change society but he knows he can save the person in front of them so that's what he dose. 

I don't know if I would call him humble.  He's seems pretty judgmental and it takes a lot to get him to even begin to change his mind. He's very stubborn, at the very least.

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Good point, Morningtide, about shardblades not cutting flesh. But Kaladin thought about Syl taking the form of a stethoscope. And since Syl can fly through keyholes and stuff, she might be able to fly down someone's throat to examine their lungs or digestive tract, or maybe fly into other parts. If she continues to become more physical, she might be able to remove foreign objects from a body. She could be really useful without cutting flesh. 

Lukaash, I agree that Lirin might be pushed to fight if he became a Radiant, and that he doesn't want to bond a spren. But that doesn't mean he won't do it. Some people bond spren unintentionally, like Kaladin did. 

Edgedancers' spren are cultivationspren. Lirin should bond a spren that is of Honor, not of Cultivation, I think. But maybe even cultivationspren are partly of Honor. If we know that, I don't remember.

Edited by Vin(Diesel)
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When are we going to get a Shardcast episode about Lirin?

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On 11/9/2021 at 0:05 PM, Letryx13 said:

I don't know if I would call him humble.  He's seems pretty judgmental and it takes a lot to get him to even begin to change his mind. He's very stubborn, at the very least.

Stubborn yes that he is you have to be to be a pacifist. 

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On 11/9/2021 at 6:58 PM, Vin(Diesel) said:

Good point, Morningtide, about shardblades not cutting flesh. But Kaladin thought about Syl taking the form of a stethoscope. And since Syl can fly through keyholes and stuff, she might be able to fly down someone's throat to examine their lungs or digestive tract, or maybe fly into other parts. If she continues to become more physical, she might be able to remove foreign objects from a body. She could be really useful without cutting flesh. 

Lukaash, I agree that Lirin might be pushed to fight if he became a Radiant, and that he doesn't want to bond a spren. But that doesn't mean he won't do it. Some people bond spren unintentionally, like Kaladin did. 

Edgedancers' spren are cultivationspren. Lirin should bond a spren that is of Honor, not of Cultivation, I think. But maybe even cultivationspren are partly of Honor. If we know that, I don't remember.

 I don't think he could be pushed to fight hes too  stubborn. 

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On 9.11.2021 at 4:28 PM, Frustration said:

That is a flaw that any order can have not just Skybreakers.

Yes, but is a feature a Skybreaker must have.

On 9.11.2021 at 4:43 PM, Letryx13 said:

A skybreaker wouldn't have tried to free slaves in the first place, as long as slavery was legal.

And as long as the slaves were treated according to the rules, which Sadeas did not do. They executed a corrupt jailer.

On 9.11.2021 at 4:43 PM, Letryx13 said:

I admit there's some grey area about whether it was a deception or a betrayal, but I maintain that he acted mostly out of pride.

Again, many a spren would tell you that duty is duty. Why you do your duty does not matter, as long as you do it. Pride is a flaw of character, not honor.

On 9.11.2021 at 4:43 PM, Letryx13 said:

Taravangian claimed he did everything to be in a better position to negotiate with Odium, but as Dalinar accused, he probably also did it to become his definition of the greatest king ever, not just to protect people. I think he wanted to prove the people who accused him of being of diminished capacity wrong.

Thus defending his honor against slander?

On 9.11.2021 at 4:43 PM, Letryx13 said:

Change is a necessary part of honor when you're in the wrong, look at Dalinar.

If.

Now the laconic answer being given, Taravangian did change. He went to the valley of the Nightwatcher for that specific purpose.

On 9.11.2021 at 4:43 PM, Letryx13 said:

Being the most intelligent doesn't mean he was always right, and it definitely doesn't mean he should decide everything on his own.

Who should? A monarchical attitude is not necessarily dishonorable and he did allow alternative interpretations, if you had the arguments. He was no petty tyrant.

 

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Just now, Oltux72 said:

Yes, but is a feature a Skybreaker must have.

Oath 5 would like to argue.

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1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Oath 5 would like to argue.

Well, you have to be able to perform according to the prior oaths to get there. Secondly the fifth oath is surprisingly vague. The interpretation that becoming the law allows you to arbitrarily alter the rules is not obvious. It may also mean that you have to abstract and internalize the principles the law is based upon and use them always, regardless of omissions in the law.

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