kalamitous_emoashions

Dalinar has heard the Rhythms of Roshar - which gives us more info about the Unmade

6 posts in this topic

Hi All, 

Doing a re-read of Oathbringer and came across a curious quote, which I had a look for but I don't think has been brought up before. I know there are many theories about the Unmade, and I think this might give us another bit of info that can be worked in to theories. 

In a Dalinar look-back chapter Brandon seems to make it very obvious that when under the influence of Nergaoul, and amidst completely loosing himself within battle against Kalanor's forces, he attuned to one of the rhythms of Roshar. Someone might know more than me, but as far as I am aware, I can't re-call any human in the books attuning to a rhythm, and acknowledging it, if even in an unknowing/unconscious way. 

We have comments from Rlain about how Rock and others in Bridge Four seem to almost hear a rhythm a times - but this is seemingly unconscious on their part, and nearly nearly not the same as a viewpoint character directly referencing it. 

Here is the quote: 

Quote

Page 265 to 266: (all italics are already italicised in the text). 

the Thrill giving him purpose...He was not a man. He was judgement...Enthralled, he cut down foe after foe, sensing a strange rhythm to the fighting, as if the blows of his sword needed to fall to the dictates of some unseen beat. A redness grew at the edges of his vision, eventually covering the landscape like a veil. It seemed to shift and move like the coils of an eel, trembling to the beats of his sword. 

I think there are a few things we can assume from this: 

1. Like I said, Dalinar has heard and attuned to a rhythm of Roshar

2. Giving he is directly under Nergaoul's influence, we can probably assume that this ability to attune to a rhythm has a link to Nergaoul's characteristics, abilities, and identity.  

This gives us a potentially interesting tidbit about Nergaoul, and maybe the rest of the unmade, firstly it perhaps indicates a direct Connection (and I use this in a big C way purposefully) between them and Roshar. 

Secondly, they are able to connect humans with Roshar while under their influence.

As mentioned above, I am not sure exactly how useful or insightful this is - cleverer people than me might be able to see some relevance to this within the theories. But I hadn't seen this mentioned before, so thought I would point it out. 

Have at it people! Let me know what you think. 

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I think he is hearing odium's rhythm as he gets more and more violent rather that the any specific unmade's effect

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Feels likely that Odium, through the Unmade tries to encourage/enflame certain emotions when people open themselves up to it. And I wouldn't be surprised if he uses the rhythms to do it.

WoB:

Quote

zas678 (paraphrased)

Can Odium influence people the same way that Ruin can?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, you see, the kandra and the koloss have a "hole" in them that allows Ruin to come in and take over. The Parshendi naturally are protected from this, but when they expose themselves to the storms, and the spren come in, many of these spren have that kind of "hole" in them, and that's what allows Odium to take control of them.

zas678 (paraphrased)

No, I'm talking about how Ruin was able to push people, place things in their minds, stuff like that. Can Odium do the same thing?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, Odium wasn't around when those people were created, so it's a little different for him than Ruin. So if he influences people in that way, it's through the Unmade.

Orem signing 2014 (Dec. 6, 2014)

Also, there are a number of times where we see singers who have taken on forms of power seemingly being manipulated through the rhythms. (Toot of own horn disclaimer re the topic below)

 

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I am coming back to my own topic to add in something else I noticed, probably because I made this topic. 

Rock has also consciously heard and attuned to a rhythm of Roshar. We should probably note the fact that Horneaters have some parshendi blood in them, so it might be easier for them to attune to the rhythms. But there is a specific quote that starts the passage, that given the only other time that we have seen a human character attune a rhythm is Dalinar during war, makes me suspicious that something else is going on - and that it is important. Here is the quote below, abridged for the important bits: 

Quote

Page 383, Oathbringer: 

'Cooking was like warfare...Lunamor fought to prove himself time and again. He waged war with breads and soups, sating appetites and satisfying stomachs. As he worked, hands deep within the dough, he could hear his mothers humming. Her careful instructions. Kaladin was wrong; Lunamor hadn't become a cook. He'd always been one...he closed his eyes, needing and humming his mother's song to a beat he could almost, barely, just faintly hear.

I think there are a couple of interesting things here. Both of these characters have managed to attune to a rhythm when they are engaged in activities that they spiritually see as their true calling in life - Warfare and cooking. The start of the quote also directly makes a comparison between the two activities as well. 

I thought the first instance of Dalinar was an interesting footnote. But given this second evidence of Rock - even accounting for his horneater blood, there is something more going on in regards to humans attuning to either a rhythm, or different rhythms, when doing something they perceive as their spiritual calling. 

Please help me figure out the implications of this - and what might be going on. A lot of you are far smarter than me. 

 

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My suspicion is that the humans of Roshar over thousands of years have become closer and closer to intuitively hearing the rhythms.

 

Navani was able to by making close contact with Investiture, I won't be surprised if Kaladin hears them on swearing a 5th ideal.

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Hmm, in Dalinar's case, I don't think he's attuning a rhythm so much as being attuned to it through the Thrill.

On 2021-10-25 at 7:31 PM, kalamitous_emoashions said:

Giving he is directly under Nergaoul's influence, we can probably assume that this ability to attune to a rhythm has a link to Nergaoul's characteristics, abilities, and identity.

I don't think it has much to do with Nergaoul specifically, but the Unmade in general.

On 2021-10-25 at 7:31 PM, kalamitous_emoashions said:

This gives us a potentially interesting tidbit about Nergaoul, and maybe the rest of the unmade, firstly it perhaps indicates a direct Connection (and I use this in a big C way purposefully) between them and Roshar. 

Odium's tone is one of the three Pure tones of Roshar, makes sense to me.

On 2021-11-30 at 11:21 PM, kalamitous_emoashions said:

Rock has also consciously heard and attuned to a rhythm of Roshar.

I disagree that it is done consciously in the provided quote. It's probably similar to Navani being able to hear Honor's tone with Raboniel's help. Rock's humming lines up with one of the rhythms, helping him find it, but he doesn't consciously reach for it.

On 2021-11-30 at 11:21 PM, kalamitous_emoashions said:

given the only other time that we have seen a human character attune a rhythm is Dalinar during war

I'll have to disagree there:

Quote

Honor's song welled up inside her, and she sang it. The pillar began to vibrate as the Sibling sang Cultivation's song. The pure sound of Lifelight. The sound began to shift, and Navani modulated her tone, inching it closer and closer to . . .

The two snapped into harmony. The boundless energy of Cultivation, always growing and changing, and the calm solidity of Honor—organized, structured. They vibrated together. Structure and nature. Knowledge and wonder. Mixing.

The song of science itself.

That is it, the Sibling whispered the Rhythm of the Tower. My song.

"Our emulsifier," Navani whispered to the Rhythm of the Tower.

-RoW, chapter 110

I think we can safely say that Navani's also on that list.

It would seem that one possible way to hear at least some rhythms is to let a spren in, though obviously not in all cases.

On 2021-11-30 at 11:21 PM, kalamitous_emoashions said:

there is something more going on in regards to humans attuning to either a rhythm, or different rhythms, when doing something they perceive as their spiritual calling.

I don't think this is the case, I think it's more being open to the Investiture that the rhythm belongs to and possibly mindset.

We know that singers sometimes attune a specific rhythm to try to find a particular mindset.

So in Dalinar's case, he's infused by the Thrill and in a receptive mindset.

We also know that Rock has something special going on, so he might be closer to how singers can (apparently) just naturally tell that the rhythms are there.

This is also quite timely, as I noticed something similar recently, though a different character.

Quote

Amaram fought with striking fury—a frenetic kind of harmony, an unending assault of weaving Shardblades and beautiful stances.

-Oathbringer, chapter 120

Which I thought sounded kind of like this:

Quote

"The sphere's tone has a rhythm to it," Raboniel explained, eyes closed as she held the sphere. "Each Light has a rhythm. Honor's is stately. Cultivation's is stark and staccato, but builds."

"And Odium's?"

"Chaos," she said, "but with a certain strange logic to it. The longer you listen, the more sense it makes."

-RoW, chapter 76

This also sounds quite similar Dalinar in the grip of the Thrill.

I would posit that, though Nergaoul was present at Thaylen City, Amaram got his rhythm from Yelig-nar, if nothing else because he doesn't seem to be gripped in battle fury.

I can also imagine that the Unmade are somewhat jealous, or that it's simply a matter of Investiture saturation. Similar to how Timbre says Rlain is already spoken for.

So, we have (possibly) four known examples, and three of those involve being connected to Investiture somehow, the Thrill (which is described as seeming to tremble to the beat of Dalinar's sword), Yelig-nar, which seems to make Amaram move to something like Odium's rhythm, and the Sibling.

There's definitely a lot up with the rhythms. Seeing as Venli's stoneshaping gets a bit... weird...

Quote

The tone snapped into her mind, Cultivation and Odium mixing into a harmony, and it thrummed through Venli. She opened her eyes as power spread from her through the stones. They began to shake and vibrate to the sound of her rhythm, liquid, forming peaks and valleys in time with the music. The floor, ceiling, and walls before her rippled, and a trail of people formed from the stone. Moving, alive again, as they strode away from pain, and war, and killing.

RoW, chapter 83

And that Brandon has said this about Rlain:

Quote

SteelITriceps

I'm going to make the assumption that Rlain will have the same basic powers as Renarin.

Brandon Sanderson

This is a RAFO for now, though you can assume basic similarities between their powers--but Rlain's deeper connection to the rhythms might tweak his powers somewhat.

General Reddit 2020 (Nov. 22, 2020)

Which is also interesting, as it mentions Rlain's deeper connection to the rhythms.

(Great, now I want to see both a singer and human of each standard and Enlightened order)

Navani's knowledge of the (most basic) rhythms might influence how her powers manifest and generally what she's able to do.

Beyond the influence on the magics, I also don't know what the implications of this is, though it's probably foreshadowing that all Roshar will be able to hear the rhythms eventually.

 

¤_¤

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