KaladinWorldsinger

Night of Sorrows- Migration to Shadesmar theory

18 posts in this topic

So I have some predictions for the night of sorrows, in no particular order:

1)A significant part of Roshar will be shattered by wave of destruction which will look like a duststorm

2)The stormfather will die. No more stormlight

3)This either cause a unending weeping or the everstorm never stops

4) Shadesmar sun will set

5) Humans will migrate to shadesmar

1)Duststorm

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The land was trembling. The wall of dust was being caused by something. Something approaching.

The ground was falling away.

Dalinar gasped. The very rocks ahead were shattering, breaking apart, becoming dust. He backed away as everything began to shake, a massive earthquake accompanied by a terrible roar of dying rocks. He fell to the ground.

There was an awful, grinding, terrifying moment of nightmare. The shaking, the destruction, the sounds of the land itself seeming to die.

Then it was past. Dalinar breathed in and out before rising on unsteady legs. He and the figure stood on a solitary pinnacle of rock. A little section that—for some reason—had been protected. It was like a stone pillar a few paces wide, rising high into the air.

Around it, the land was gone. Kholinar was gone. It had all fallen away into unplumbed darkness below. He felt vertigo, standing on the tiny bit of rock that—impossibly—remained.

“What is this?” Dalinar demanded, though he knew that the being couldn’t hear him.

 

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They break the land itself! They want it, but in their rage they will destroy it. Like the jealous man burns his rich things rather than let them be taken by his enemies! They come!

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And all the world was shattered! The rocks trembled with their steps, and the stones reached toward the heavens. We die! We die!

Quote

A man stood on a cliffside and watched his homeland fall into dust. The waters surged beneath, so far beneath. And he heard a child crying. They were his own tears.

The second death rattle seems to be more about thunderclasts but I still think, 'the world was shattered' is saying exactly what we think it's saying. Also there will definitely be a loooot of thunderclasts in the next book for the final battle. 'The stones reached towards the heavens' might about the dust reaching high.

So I think there will be a duststorm coming next book. Stone will be divided into molecules which will be carried by the winds causing a duststorm. Don't know what's causing the earthquake. Also maybe we will learn why they are called thunderclasts?

What is causing the division? The surge of division prolly. Whose going to do it tho, hmmmm?

2) Stormdaddy dies, no more stormlight

Stormfather has constantly been berated by people for not showing mercy to people, not only that he has been growing to understand humanity and why they break their oaths. He understands why the heralds peaced out and curses Dalinar for giving him this understanding. He even cracks a joke at one point in RoW(Like father like daughter). But he constantly mentions that he cannot break his speed for anyone and stresses that there will be consequences

The theory is Stormdaddy will reflexively try to stop himself when he sees that a city full of people devasted by the duststorm (or something like that) will be killed. This prolly will tear him from the highstorm and cause a hole somewhere that Todium can strike upon. Killing him

Or maybe Stormdaddy knows what will happen but does it anyway. Sacrificing himself fully?

Anyway this will be the darkest point of the book. Literally. Because stormfather merged with the cognitive shadow of honor. So when he dies, honor will die completely. Stormlight will now be very limited. 

Also the lowest point is also called 'the dark night of the soul' in narratives, just like night of sorrows.

I don't think the stormfather will have such a sad death and never come back. I mean even Evi popped in for a hot sec as a voice to Dalinar. But that prolly happens near the end of the book.

Quote

“That,” Moash said to the Fused, “is how you break a storm.

(in ref to kal commiting suicide after the death of teft)

I see what u did there , Brandon ;)

3) Unending weeping or everstorm

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I'm cold. Mother, I'm cold. Mother? Why can I still hear the rain? Will it stop

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Light grows so distant. The storm never stops. I am broken, and all around me have died. I weep for the end of all things. He has won. Oh, he has beaten us

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The day was ours, but they took it. Stormfather! You cannot have it. The day is ours. They come, rasping, and the lights fail. Oh, Stormfather! 

Nothing much to say here. It could be the weeping, which has been a phenomenon on roshar already, when the stormfather prolly recharges his stormlight. Also 'weeping' and night of 'sorrows'

It could also be an unending everstorm, then the name would make sense. 

Who nose 

Anyway there will sure be a lot of flooding on the available land 

4) Shadesmar sun will set

Quote

A light winked out in the sky, one that Dalinar hadn’t realized was there.

Then another winked out as well. The sun seemed to be growing dimmer.

Quote

The sun approaches the horizon. The Everstorm comes. The True Desolation. The Night of Sorrows….

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Don’t much like your opinion on gambling, but that’s to be expected.Wouldn’t be right for a proper woman not to scold a fellow for gambling. It’d be like the sun refusing to rise or the sea turning white.”

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“Stormfather help us,” Shallan said lightly, sitting beside her husband and laying a protective hand upon his knee. “A Kholin has learned to relax once in a while? Surely the moons will stop orbiting and the sun will come crashing down"

 

Quote

 

 

The last two are just dialogues, but that's the exact place authors put foreshadowing because dialogues are not expected to contain them. Also there are prolly more dialogues like this. This is the two I found.

While they seem to be talking about the regular old sun, I think it's far more likely that it's talking about the sun in shadesmar. It stays fixed in position, near the horizon. I just don't think odium is strong enough to threaten the actual sun. 

We know from a wob, that the reason shadows lie towards the sun in shadesmar is connected to pull of the beyond( which is after the spiritual realm)

In fact, the sun might actually be the spiritual realm itself. 

We know that odium has enough power to hurt the realm.

Quote

That said, the most worrying thing I discovered in this was the wound upon the Spiritual Realm where Ambition, Mercy, and Odium clashed— and Ambition was destroyed. The effects on the planet Threnody have been … disturbing.

Maybe todium hurts the SR through the Stormfather? He has a window to the SR afterall.

5) Migration to Shadesmar

We know from the 'man stood on a cliffside' death rattle that people on a cliff seemed to be fine. This means the oathgate of Urithiru prolly will be fine too. This will be how humanity escapes calamity and extinction. A sizable chunk will still die, making book 5 the darkest book yet.

I was not sold on this prediction until I remembered this. Remember the land-water inversion in shadesmar? Land is a body of water on shadesmar and vice versa. What a wierd rule right? Never made sense to me.

In this theory, land will get replaced by water in the PR! That means shadesmar will slowly gain new land! Perfect for humans to live in.

From a story standpoint, this will be a great way to make roshar cosmere level quickly and believably, since they live in shadesmar and can learn about realmatics way easily now. Navani will find out how to make fabrials without trapping spren.

As to how they will survive without a sun in shadesmar, I have other theories....

What do u guys think? Please tear this apart.

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I like all these predictions! 1,2,3, I've heard of and mostly agree with - I don't know about the Stormfather dying, per se, but something catastrophic indeed. Although, considering the death of Phendorana, that could be seen as foreshadowing of worse to come. 4 I hadn't heard of before, but the things you quote get me thinking about it. Not sure it's been enough foreshadowed just from the books we have yet, but I could see it more in books 6-10. That being said, book 5 could set it up more. And point 5 I've heard a number of people talk about and, honestly, this seems like the least plausible one, though I could see some humans doing so (though I'm still unsure of that). I like your reasoning as to why it would work though, with more water in the physical realm making more land in the cognitive - I like it.

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I like all these predictions!

Thank you!:lol:

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Although, considering the death of Phendorana, that could be seen as foreshadowing of worse to come

 

Quote

this seems like the least plausible one, though I could see some humans doing so

I am curious why you think this is not plausible. To me it seemed more like an inevitability, since Roshar is one of the few planets where people know about shadesmar so well. And Brandon should not kill stormfather with anti stormlight, my heart can't handle that. Phendorana's death was the worst.:(

Edited by KaladinWorldsinger
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Some humans could perhaps move to Shadesmar, but the whole of Roshar? Doubtful. There's a lot of Roshar left to explore and some of the lowest areas are among those still to be explored. In my mind, there has been a lot of potential foreshadowing for everything else, but not much foreshadowing for a mass migration to Shadesmar. That's not to say there won't be changes to Shadesmar or even some people or more traders in Shadesmar, but I see Roshar as a whole as weathering the changes above and we seeing how they've weathered it after the time skip. But I could very well be wrong. I just don't see much foreshadowing for it like I do the rest of it.

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  1. The first death rattle sounds rather like the firing of the weapon that created the Shattered Plains to me.
  2. How would significant numbers of people exist in Shadesmar? They wouldn't even have water. For normal, unprepared people Shadesmar means death.
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3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:
  1. The first death rattle sounds rather like the firing of the weapon that created the Shattered Plains to me.
  2. How would significant numbers of people exist in Shadesmar? They wouldn't even have water. For normal, unprepared people Shadesmar means death.

1.) Maybe, but I don't think the rest of the death rattle matches that( did the singer's even create the shattered plains? They seemed to deny it in their songs(some epigraphs)

2.) Well we do know that

Silverlight spoilers

Spoiler

There is an entire city called silverlight in the cognitive realm somewhere and it has actual real people living there. Khriss, who writes the Ars Arcanum at the end of every book is from silverlight. So they have some solution to the water problem

 

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10 hours ago, Crylorenzo said:

Some humans could perhaps move to Shadesmar, but the whole of Roshar? Doubtful. There's a lot of Roshar left to explore and some of the lowest areas are among those still to be explored. In my mind, there has been a lot of potential foreshadowing for everything else, but not much foreshadowing for a mass migration to Shadesmar. That's not to say there won't be changes to Shadesmar or even some people or more traders in Shadesmar, but I see Roshar as a whole as weathering the changes above and we seeing how they've weathered it after the time skip. But I could very well be wrong. I just don't see much foreshadowing for it like I do the rest of it.

In my head, I think of more like a significant piece of Roshar getting destroyed and the most of humans having to evacuate to shadesmar. There will still be Roshar, but more dangerous and inhabited by a growing parshendi population. This can get fixed tho in the later books as

Mistborn era 1 spoilers

Spoiler

Shards can create entire planets so a bunch of rock seems easy

 

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2 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

2.) Well we do know that

Silverlight spoilers

  Hide contents

There is an entire city called silverlight in the cognitive realm somewhere and it has actual real people living there. Khriss, who writes the Ars Arcanum at the end of every book is from silverlight. So they have some solution to the water problem

 

Yes, but that does not mean that this is a solution that is open to refugees from preindustrial lands without much infrastructure. Trained and properly equipped people have crossed Antarctica on foot. That doesn't mean that normal people can do so.

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Just now, Oltux72 said:

Yes, but that does not mean that this is a solution that is open to refugees from preindustrial lands without much infrastructure. Trained and properly equipped people have crossed Antarctica on foot. That doesn't mean that normal people can do so.

I am sorry, I don't know much about silverlight, is there a particular need of infrastructure and equipment? I imagine that you could still survive, if a little uncomfortably. 

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5 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

I am sorry, I don't know much about silverlight, is there a particular need of infrastructure and equipment? I imagine that you could still survive, if a little uncomfortably. 

On what would you survive? You absolutely need

  • water
  • food

Neither exists in Shadesmar. The voyage in Oathbringer was extremely instructive. Had they not met Riino they would have died within days.

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12 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

On what would you survive? You absolutely need

  • water
  • food

Neither exists in Shadesmar. The voyage in Oathbringer was extremely instructive. Had they not met Riino they would have died within days.

Since you qoted my second point earlier(the one about silverlight) I am going to assume that you do know about silverlight. There is an entire city that exists with actual people, so I assume you can get food and water.

But even beyond that, we saw in rhythm of war that plantlife can be grown by lifelight and investiture. Soulcasting is still a thing in world that can help out in a crisis. Shadesmar has black obsidian ground, but I don't think it's actually obsidian

Let's not forget, Roshar should be unlivable (no soil, just rock). Rock buds and shale bark exist because of cultivation's investiture and crem( which has nutrients for these plants) also is influenced by cultivation. ( I think)

It is magic afterall, they can find a way

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18 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Since you qoted my second point earlier(the one about silverlight) I am going to assume that you do know about silverlight. There is an entire city that exists with actual people, so I assume you can get food and water.

After you have prepared.

18 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

But even beyond that, we saw in rhythm of war that plantlife can be grown by lifelight and investiture.

Investiture you do not have. No Highstorms in Shadesmar. And they still need water.

18 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Soulcasting is still a thing in world that can help out in a crisis. Shadesmar has black obsidian ground, but I don't think it's actually obsidian

Well, no. Soulcaster fabrials revert to spren form in Shadesmar. Human soulcasters are pretty rare. A few hundred on a whole planet. And they need Stormlight and gem stones. Neither of which is readily available in Sadesmar.

18 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Let's not forget, Roshar should be unlivable (no soil, just rock). Rock buds and shale bark exist because of cultivation's investiture and crem( which has nutrients for these plants) also is influenced by cultivation. ( I think)

Exactly, on Roshar.

18 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

It is magic afterall, they can find a way

Within the time they'd need it before they run out of water they can carry?

Look at the expedition in Rhythm of War. It took them quite a lot of the world's human Soulcasters, local help and ships, yet they still are running out of supplies after a few weeks.

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16 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Since you qoted my second point earlier(the one about silverlight) I am going to assume that you do know about silverlight. There is an entire city that exists with actual people, so I assume you can get food and water.

But even beyond that, we saw in rhythm of war that plantlife can be grown by lifelight and investiture. Soulcasting is still a thing in world that can help out in a crisis. Shadesmar has black obsidian ground, but I don't think it's actually obsidian

Let's not forget, Roshar should be unlivable (no soil, just rock). Rock buds and shale bark exist because of cultivation's investiture and crem( which has nutrients for these plants) also is influenced by cultivation. ( I think)

It is magic afterall, they can find a way

 I think we can presume that they get water and food from the physical realm.  That won't really be an option For the refugees from roshar.  Consider that if it was that easy to colonize the cognitive reaugmentative realm why didn't it be humans from ashen Do that Instead of crossing over to roshar.

Edited by bmcclure7
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It's nice to see this theory got more attention

And good job for finding this clue

It's interesting if stormfather truly dead, that means we will probably never see dalinar fourth and fifth ideal.

Spoiler

Then again, we have two bondsmith now so bondsmith fourth and fifth ideal is not out of the table.

 

 

Edited by Rahewi
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2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 I think we can presume that they get water and food from the physical realm.  That won't really be an option For the refugees from roshar.  Consider that if it was that easy to colonize the cognitive reaugmentative realm why didn't it be humans from ashen Do that Instead of crossing over to roshar.

Human cant survive long in cognitive realm really makes sense. The people of Ashyn invaded roshar to live is our biggest clue. And it would also make dalinar and co need to go to the other cosmere worlds to survive and then possibly, puposely or not, conquer it....

Spoiler

just like what todium want

 

Edited by Rahewi
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1 hour ago, Rahewi said:

It's interesting if stormfather truly dead, that means we will probably never see dalinar fourth and fifth ideal.

I think we will see Dalinar swear the fourth ideal and simultaneously ascend or something making the fifth ideal moot. He already breaks a lot of rules by summoning perpendicularities and rayse talks like Dalinar already ascended.

If we are going to see someone swear the fifth ideal, it would be Kaladin. If kal doesn't, I don't think anyone will.

Shallan is a wierd case

 

3 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

I think we can presume that they get water and food from the physical realm.  That won't really be an option For the refugees from roshar.  Consider that if it was that easy to colonize the cognitive reaugmentative realm why didn't it be humans from ashen Do that Instead of crossing over to roshar.

So silverlight would be completely dependent on the PR? That seems very unlikely. At that point why not just live normally near land? I don't think it will be easy to colonise shadesmar just they will be very Lucky and get some good help from cultivation.

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2 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

I think we will see Dalinar swear the fourth ideal and simultaneously ascend or something making the fifth ideal moot. He already breaks a lot of rules by summoning perpendicularities and rayse talks like Dalinar already ascended.

If we are going to see someone swear the fifth ideal, it would be Kaladin. If kal doesn't, I don't think anyone will.

Shallan is a wierd case

 

So silverlight would be completely dependent on the PR? That seems very unlikely. At that point why not just live normally near land? I don't think it will be easy to colonise shadesmar just they will be very Lucky and get some good help from cultivation.

Why would it be unlikely we know scholars regularly visit the physical realm I would be surprised if they didn't have connection all over the PR.

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3 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

So silverlight would be completely dependent on the PR? That seems very unlikely. At that point why not just live normally near land? I don't think it will be easy to colonise shadesmar just they will be very Lucky and get some good help from cultivation.

You can do stuff. You can condense water from the air. You can pipe the Dor. The apocryphal works have magic systems that can make food. It is possible to live in the CR. But if and only if you have specific knowledge and equipment. You need to be scholars and engineers.

You can run caravans made from lifeless animals.

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