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Oltux72

How do they unload the iron medaillions?

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The medaillions the South Scadrians are using to lighten themselves while riding an airship convey normal iron feruchemy, don't they? People apparently do not need an extrametalmind when using them. So presumably the mass is stored in the medaillion. So a simple question. What do they do once those parts of medaillions are full? They can't just tap them, as they don't have the correct Identity.

  1. Can the medaillions easily be taken apart, the iron parts be replaced and melted down?
  2. Have they found a way to selectively wipe a metalmind?
  3. Or is the feruchemy granted by a medaillion different and generates an unkeyed metalmind?

 

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My money is on them melting the iron down and using it for something else.

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3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

The medaillions the South Scadrians are using to lighten themselves while riding an airship convey normal iron feruchemy, don't they? People apparently do not need an extrametalmind when using them. So presumably the mass is stored in the medaillion. So a simple question. What do they do once those parts of medaillions are full? They can't just tap them, as they don't have the correct Identity.

Why would they be able to store their weight in the medalion but not tapp it?

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3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Why would they be able to store their weight in the medalion but not tapp it?

Identity. The current user woukd surely be able to tap his or her stored mass, but nobody else's.

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3 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Identity. The current user woukd surely be able to tap his or her stored mass, but nobody else's.

So simply pass it around to everyone who's used it and empty it, if too many differrent people have used it get a different piece of iron.

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4 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Identity. The current user woukd surely be able to tap his or her stored mass, but nobody else's.

Do they share medallions? Why wouldn't each different sailor have a different metalmind?

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3 hours ago, Nameless said:

Do they share medallions? Why wouldn't each different sailor have a different metalmind?

Of course medalions are universal. After all, Northen Scadrians only need Intent to use them, if medalion would be personalised they wouldnt be able to use them.

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Identity. The current user woukd surely be able to tap his or her stored mass, but nobody else's.

This is not how medalions work - Brass Medalions can be easily tapped, as well as Coppermind Medalions. So they not use user's Identity. Medalion is basicly NicrosilMind with power, theorethicaly with Blank Identity, but there is no such thing like this (like there is no Blank Connection, Connetion is always to something/someone). I think power in NicrosilMind have no "personal"Identity (Identity of THIS CONCRETE Allomancer/Feruchemist), but stil have "power" Identity (Ability to Use Power also Identify you as Allomancer/Feruchemist of concrete type) and Medalion's user when he is tapping Medalion, he has his Soul temporarly overwriten as Allomancer/Feruchemist with Identity of this Medalion's. So Every User of one Medalion has temporarly the same Identity of Power.

I hope you'll understand my ramblings.

Edited by Bzhydack
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1 minute ago, Bzhydack said:

This is not how medalions work - Brass Medalions can be easily tapped, as well as Coppermind Medalions.

But they do their job by tapping them. Ironminds are different. You use them by filling them while you are flying in an airship.

 

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4 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

But they do their job by tapping them. Ironminds are different. You use them by filling them while you are flying in an airship.

To tap them, someone need to fill them first. We even know their name: FireFathers/Mothers. Mechanism is the same. And whole Fire-Father/Mother-thing would not have sense if only few could tap Power in Medalions, this need to be universal.

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1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

Of course medalions are universal. After all, Northen Scadrians only need Intent to use them, if medalion would be personalised they wouldnt be able to use them.

Of course they're universal. I'm just asking why the sailors would all share metalminds, when they need to use them regularly.

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16 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Of course they're universal. I'm just asking why the sailors would all share metalminds, when they need to use them regularly.

Probably there is no reason, beside the fact that Medalions seems to be standard equipment, not tied to crew, but to ship.

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1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

Probably there is no reason, beside the fact that Medalions seems to be standard equipment, not tied to crew, but to ship.

I assume that each crewmember would have a medallion assigned to them. They may have had medallions in the smaller ships, but those are more akin to supplies on a lifeboat.

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12 hours ago, Nameless said:

Of course they're universal. I'm just asking why the sailors would all share metalminds, when they need to use them regularly.

I am afraid I have to point out that ship carry passengers.

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Considering the whole point of the Unsealed Metalminds are that they can used by anyone. I'd argue that they don't store Identity while filling them. The fact that they have full Brassminds and Duraluminminds in the same Medallions as the Ironminds are further reasoning for this. 

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15 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid I have to point out that ship carry passengers.

. . . So? I mean, they would probably unload their metalminds when they were at ports or cities, but they also might just switch out metalminds completely. Their passengers and crew would probably all get assigned metalminds at the beginning of the trip, and they wouldn't swap unless someone lost their metalmind.

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The Medalion is technically just an Unkeyed Nicrosilmind.  It grants anyone who touches it the ability to use F-Iron.  

Thinking about it, this is a good point.  In order to make an unkeyed metalmind, you have to store your identity before putting your investiture into the nicrosilmind.  So, someone makes a Nicrosilmind that allows you to have the power to tap and store Identity. Then they make one that allows you to tap and store Investiture (making your own nicrosilminds).  Wear both of those, and anyone can store identity and investiture.  So an Iron Ferring stores their Identity somewhere, and at the same time, stores their Investiture into a Medalion.  Thus, creating a Medalion that anyone can tap, thus gaining F-Iron.  

The Medallion itself would have a strip of Iron, but Wax even points out that the strip of iron is unnecessary.  It's just for convenience.  

That does beg the question, though.  You aren't stripping your OWN identity when you store Weight using an Iron Medallion.  But, from the way Brass Medallions work, and the Copper Medallion we've seen, you can access other people's attributes when you use them.  

That leads me to believe that this is because the power isn't yours.  It is the Medallion's.  The Attribute is being stored as Investiture, but the Investiture Metalmind, the Nicrosilmind, has no Identity, and therefore the Attribute you are storing has no Identity.  

That would mean every metalmind that is created using a Medallion is then an Unkeyed Metalmind, and anyone who has access to that kind of Feruchemy would be able to use it, because none of the attributes you store would have any identity.  

That has some serious potential in the Economics of the World.  Being able to store up and sell full metalminds would be insane.  Or selling your own attributes.  The medical profession alone would be wiped out real quick.  Just give a Hospital a bunch of Gold Medallions, and pay people to store up healing in a bunch of Gold Metalminds.  Anytime someone gets sick, just put on this ring and you'll be better real quick.  

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On 24/10/2021 at 2:04 PM, StanLemon said:

Considering the whole point of the Unsealed Metalminds are that they can used by anyone. I'd argue that they don't store Identity while filling them. The fact that they have full Brassminds and Duraluminminds in the same Medallions as the Ironminds are further reasoning for this. 

Heat is not stored by them, but by the Firemother and Firefathers (which presumably is done in the same way as the unkeyed goldminds we've seen Sets have). So the way that already full brassmind works doesn't directly indicate whether ironminds will have the user's identity or not.

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1 minute ago, Raphaborn said:

Heat is not stored by them, but by the Firemother and Firefathers (which presumably is done in the same way as the unkeyed goldminds we've seen Sets have). So the way that already full brassmind works doesn't directly indicate whether ironminds will have the user's identity or not.

It doesn't, but as they've already broken the Identity system enough that they have Nicrosilminds that can be used and passed around to anyone it's not even a stretch that they have a way to let people store attributes in the Medallions without Identity locking them

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2 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

It doesn't, but as they've already broken the Identity system enough that they have Nicrosilminds that can be used and passed around to anyone it's not even a stretch that they have a way to let people store attributes in the Medallions without Identity locking them

Well, it's possible, but not that likely. But we have no indication that medallions make them without Identity when they store them without even needing Aluminum, and it seems like a gigantic extrapolation.
Nicrosilminds are already made without Identity.

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3 minutes ago, Raphaborn said:

Nicrosilminds are already made without Identity.

Which need to be Tapped. So when used they would theoretically be contaminated with Identity. Yet that doesn't appear to be a concern for the Southerners

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Just now, StanLemon said:

Which need to be Tapped. So when used they would theoretically be contaminated with Identity. Yet that doesn't appear to be a concern for the Southerners

 "theoretically be contaminated with Identity"
There is no reason for this. Or Wayne couldn't use the metalmind he took from someone else. It's totally illogical how an unkeyed metalmind should work, it's made for anyone with the right power to use. Not the next person.

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Just now, Raphaborn said:

 "theoretically be contaminated with Identity"
There is no reason for this. Or Wayne couldn't use the metalmind he took from someone else. It's totally illogical how an unkeyed metalmind should work, it's made for anyone with the right power to use. Not the next person.

I'm talking about Unsealed, not Unkeyed. That Goldmind Wayne got had a boatload of Health that was stored in it with no Identity in it. My guess is with help from an Unsealed Aluminummind. Perfectly logical to me.

Unsealed Metalminds already break known established rules of Feruchemy by allowing people without the power to use them. This either implies that any Nicrosilmind that lacks Identity can be tapped by anyone, or they have ways to break inherent aspects of Feruchemy. 

Unless people can use Nicrosilminds without having to Tap them. Their Identity would lock the Medallions to the user once they were done with them. As this doesn't appear to be a concern for the Southerners, it would appear they can make Metalminds that you can store without adding your Identity to.

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2 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

I'm talking about Unsealed, not Unkeyed. That Goldmind Wayne got had a boatload of Health that was stored in it with no Identity in it. My guess is with help from an Unsealed Aluminummind. Perfectly logical to me.

Unsealed Metalminds already break known established rules of Feruchemy by allowing people without the power to use them. This either implies that any Nicrosilmind that lacks Identity can be tapped by anyone, or they have ways to break inherent aspects of Feruchemy. 

Unless people can use Nicrosilminds without having to Tap them. Their Identity would lock the Medallions to the user once they were done with them. As this doesn't appear to be a concern for the Southerners, it would appear they can make Metalminds that you can store without adding your Identity to.

My point is: it's not because the nicrosilmind is unkeyed that the adjunct metalmind that stores the attribute automatically is also.

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2 minutes ago, Raphaborn said:

My point is: it's not because the nicrosilmind is unkeyed that the adjunct metalmind that stores the attribute automatically is also.

But if they can make a Nicrosilmind that can be Tapped and then Stored again without havingthe user's Identity added, what logical reason would they possibly have to not give that same trait to the adjacent metal?

Edited by StanLemon
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1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

But if they can make a Nicrosilmind that can be Tapped and then Stored again without having the user's Identity added, what logical reason would they possibly have to not give that same trait to the adjacent metal?

The biggest problem is that we don't know if nicrosilminds are really tapped. They never describe the feeling of tapping it, just feeling the metalminds wanting something from them. As if just knowing it's a unsealed metalmind, they can use nicrosil already activated somehow.
So it's not that I think they can store it without identity issues in nicrosilminds but they don't use it with the attached metalminds, it's just that they don't have to worry about storing nicrosilminds.
Bands are described as tapping Nicrosil, but there is Aluminum here. So it's probably not difficult to store this using a blank Identity .

Edited by Raphaborn
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