Tglassy

Elhokar

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I'm going through the books again, for the fifth time, and I just want to say that I actually like Elhokar.  in WoK, he was annoying.  By the end of WoR, he'd grown on me.  And I know that's how it's supposed to be. But in Oathbreaker, he's accepted the fact that he is not a good king, but he's stopped whining about it.  He's decided he's going to learn what he needs to.  You can't be better until you accept that you're not perfect to begin with.  And that's when he started acting like a King, at least to me.  He could have had such an interesting arch, becoming the King he always wanted to be.  I just feel so bad for him when he dies, right on the cusp of becoming Radiant.  Not gonna lie, I'd love to have seen him deal with being a Radiant.  It would have made for a good story, I think.  

Just thought I'd share.  

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Yeah, I was looking forward to him becoming a Lightweaver. Mostly to see what his focus was.

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11 hours ago, Invocation said:

Yeah, I was looking forward to him becoming a Lightweaver. Mostly to see what his focus was.

I'd wager one of his ideals would be about formally acknowledging his failings as a king, but in a less whining way.  He'd finally started to, but I think he would need to do something more complete.  Kind of like how Dalinar knew he was a war monger and a tyrant before Oathbringer, but had to state he would do better as part of his third ideal. Maybe Elhokar would admit he always knew Jasnah would do better as a ruler that he would? (I imagine this is something he'd long realized but wouldn't admit to.)

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1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

I'd wager one of his ideals would be about formally acknowledging his failings as a king, but in a less whining way.  He'd finally started to, but I think he would need to do something more complete.  Kind of like how Dalinar knew he was a war monger and a tyrant before Oathbringer, but had to state he would do better as part of his third ideal. Maybe Elhokar would admit he always knew Jasnah would do better as a ruler that he would? (I imagine this is something he'd long realized but wouldn't admit to.)

Yup:

 

Quote

 

Questioner

What lie could draw a Cryptic to Elhokar?

Brandon Sanderson

The lie that he lived with for many years: that he was a good king... He started to finally confront it.

Skyward Atlanta signing (Nov. 17, 2018)

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

coltonx9

What would Elhokar's fifth truth be?

Brandon Sanderson

...Oh, Elhokar's last truth? He would have had to have been on a long journey before he could even get to that. It would probably be-- I'm going to RAFO that now, because I think it would tell you too much about the way I'm thinking for the way the truths work. I could probably tell you that now, but I will choose not to. Let's just say it would involve kind of a journey that starts kind of-- negative is the wrong term. Being more aware of himself and then coming to a deeper awareness of himself that is perhaps not-- that leaves him in a good place.

coltonx9

Could you tell me what his first truth would have been?

Brandon Sanderson

It would have been to admit the thing that he knows, which is that he's a bad king.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

 

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54 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Yup:

Sounds to me like he could have used a visit from Tindwyl.

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2 hours ago, Invocation said:

Sounds to me like he could have used a visit from Tindwyl.

This. So much this.

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6 hours ago, Invocation said:

Sounds to me like he could have used a visit from Tindwyl.

Even Tindwyl would have had trouble making a good king out of him.  At least until he learned some humility.

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3 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

Even Tindwyl would have had trouble making a good king out of him.  At least until he learned some humility.

She would have beaten humility into him within three hours. I have no doubt.

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2 hours ago, Invocation said:

She would have beaten humility into him within three hours. I have no doubt.

Hopefully he doesn't have her thrown in jail.

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7 hours ago, Invocation said:

She would have beaten humility into him within three hours. I have no doubt.

Haha. Well, if she’d had her pewterminds, then maybe. 

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7 hours ago, LuckyJim said:

Hopefully he doesn't have her thrown in jail.

After what happened with Dalinar? I doubt it.

2 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

Haha. Well, if she’d had her pewterminds, then maybe. 

I don't know if she'd need the pewterminds. Elhokar minus Plate would be easy prey for her.

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I need to reread Mistborn, can't believe I forgot who Tindwyl was :'(

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On 10/22/2021 at 10:37 PM, Invocation said:

She would have beaten humility into him within three hours. I have no doubt.

Heh. The funny thing is, we assume this is true but what we saw of her in The Well of Ascension was her doing the opposite: "beating" humility OUT of Elend.

I'm sure she could have walked him to the realization that he eventually started walking himself to, when his true concern for his people and his country started to come out on top of his concern for his own image and reputation: he could only be the best kind of leader that he can be, not the kind of leader someone else already is.

Empathy, intelligence, insight - he always had these qualities. Force of personality, the charisma to inspire others, a strong moral conviction and an iron will that engenders respect - these he did not have, as his father and his uncle did, and Kaladin, yet he tried to act like he did. And when someone pretends to qualities they evidently do not possess, that engenders a lack of respect.

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1 minute ago, robardin said:

Heh. The funny thing is, we assume this is true but what we saw of her in The Well of Ascension was her doing the opposite: "beating" humility OUT of Elend.

I'm sure she could have walked him to the realization that he eventually started walking himself to, when his true concern for his people and his country started to come out on top of his concern for his own image and reputation: he could only be the best kind of leader that he can be, not the kind of leader someone else already is.

Empathy, intelligence, insight - he always had these qualities. Force of personality, the charisma to inspire others, a strong moral conviction and an iron will that engenders respect - these he did not have, as his father and his uncle did, and Kaladin, yet he tried to act like he did. And when someone pretends to qualities they evidently do not possess, that engenders a lack of respect.

It's the opposite of what she was doing to Elend because that's what Elend needed. She isn't like that with Vin, because she's capable of knowing when someone else needs a different path. And we know violence changes Elhokar's mind after the Dalinar incident, so I'm thinking she'd end up taking that route with him, given the chance.

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On 10/26/2021 at 6:05 PM, Invocation said:

It's the opposite of what she was doing to Elend because that's what Elend needed. She isn't like that with Vin, because she's capable of knowing when someone else needs a different path. And we know violence changes Elhokar's mind after the Dalinar incident, so I'm thinking she'd end up taking that route with him, given the chance.

Agreed. Elend and Elhokar were both lacking essential elements, that were somewhat opposites. Elend needed confidence and forcefulness while Elhokar required humility and respect for people.  Tindwyl recognized Elend's deficiency's easily, and I have no doubt she'd recognize Elhokar's too.  Unfortunately, as Dalinar proved, when someone is that arrogant, even well intendedly arrogant, it takes something dramatic to get through to them.  So instead of resorting to shame, as she did with Elend, I think she'd use force to get his attention, then try to make him listen to her. 

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I must say that Elhokar's arc is one that i did not see going the way it went. 

I had my suspicions about him being a potential Radiant as early as book 1. He mentions the shadows and after Shallan, I had realised that something similar is happening to him.

In book2, when he tells kal that the symbolheads went away i thought that may be he failed to attract their attention. 

but then after three books, just when my long held theory was proven, instead of making him a radiant, Elhokar is killed!! i was devastated. i did not see that coming and that scene is one of the most hurtful scenes to read.

I have also wondered about the lies that attracted cryptics to him and also the truths that he may have required to speak.

being a bad king is one and his bad relationship with his wife and that she is not a good person is another.

Also, it is interesting to note that He was not going to be a windrunner who are all about Leadership or even a BOndsmith who are about Unity and are leaders of Radiants.

So no matter what, even if he had become a Radiant Lightweaver, his arc probably would have still followed accepting not becoming a good king and giving up his Kingship in the favour of someone more capable. 

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