discuss Encroaching Shards

[Cusicesh]

(This post is with regards to The Stormlight Archives, but given the potential scope of the topic allowing for spoilers of other Cosmere works I've posted it here. I hope that is kosher with the moderation team.)

In The Way of Kings, a letter from Wit to Frost is given in the epigraphs, drawing attention to the immense danger that Odium poses to the Cosmere at large. In it, Wit reveals that Odium led to the Splintering of two fellow Shards; Dominion and Devotion. It is clear that Wit fears the unravelling of the Oathpact, and the epigraphs in Oathbringer show that he has also written to various Shards in the hopes of gaining their support. Further, we learn in Rhythm of War that Odium's plan for Roshar is to train a civilisation to be perfectly adapted for warfare before marching them on the cosmere at large.

Given that the epigraphs of four books in the series so far has been designated towards Wit consulting outside forces to assist in Roshar, and given that we are 4 books into a 10 book series where the main villain has declared their intention on attacking other worlds, I think it is a safe assumption to make that at some stage we will see an interaction in The Stormlight Archives between the main cast and other Shards, either A.) as Odium invades other worlds, or B.) as other Shards decide to take up Wit's call to action.

This thread is to discuss the potential candidates and their likelihood to feature in The Stormlight Archives.

 

Splintered Shards

Of the sixteen Shards, there are four known to have been Splintered and rendered, for all intents and purposes, deceased: Honour, Devotion, Dominion and Ambition. Whilst splinters of these Shards are present in Stormlight, (the spren of Honour and the seons of Devotion,) these do not constitute full Shards and can be safely dismissed.

There is a slight potential that Honour's Splintering was not as straight-forward as the destruction of these other Shards, as it is clear that the Shard put contingency plans in place before he deceased. So there is a very unlikely, but not zero percent, chance that Honour may reappear in the series at a later date.

 

Rhythm of War Shards

I am grouping these four together for simplicity; the four Shards that we were introduced to within Rhythm of War whose identities were previously unknown. Invention, Whimsy, Mercy and Valour. Harmony notes that he was unable to locate Invention following their initial contact, though whether this is due to Invention choosing to remain hidden or a practical reality of a Shard that is not bound to a singular planet travelling across the cosmere is unclear. It is my current interpretation that, as Shards are likely capable of communicating through the Spiritual Realm, Invention is choosing not to be contacted and can be discarded as an option. Harmony notes that Whimsy is unlikely to be of assistance, so can also be discounted.

Valour is the most likely of these four, as Harmony says of her: "I do think that Valour is reasonable, and suggest you approach her again. It has been too long, in her estimation, since your last conversation." This is, outside of Harmony responding to Wit's letter in a helpful manner, the closest to an endorsement that Wit has received. I also note that Honour and Valour seem thematically very similar concepts, though clearly their Intents must be quite distinct for Brandon to choose to separate the two ideas. That being the case, the best manner in which to showcase the difference between the two would be to have Valour appear in a series that has so-far heavily focused on Honour. It is also an Intent that, judging by name alone, sounds most likely to want to intervene when it comes to Odium's machinations.

Mercy is not to be discounted too quickly. Harmony notes, "Mercy worries me," and that, "Ambition, Mercy and Odium clashed - and Ambition was destroyed." There are many things that could be read into this, though the likeliest interpretation is that the actions of Mercy in some fashion aided the goals of Odium. This is not a Shard that Wit would want to approach, and I do not believe it as likely that Mercy will feature in The Stormlight Archives. However, there is the slight potential that Mercy could become aware of events transpiring on Roshar, and be inspired to take action of their own free will. Of the four RoW shards, I believe Mercy is the second most likely to be involved in SA, after Valour.

 

Harmony

Knocking off two Shards with one Vessel is Harmony, the combined powers of Ruin and Preservation. Harmony is the most receptive of all of the beings Wit has written to. Harmony recognises the risk of Odium and agrees with Wit that the other Shards should intervene before the problem escapes the Rosharan system. Harmony notes that he is searching for, "the ideal person to act on my behalf. [...] A sword, you might say," though whether such a champion is intended to represent Harmony's will outside of Scadrial or simply within it is unclear.

The sense I get is that Harmony may send some limited assistance to Roshar, but will ultimately be more connected to Scadrial and will not 'step foot' on Roshar, especially as Harmony is concerned that other Shards are encroaching on his own world. There is definitely a great potential that Harmony represents the potential for all sixteen Shards to be reunited once again, and that this will be very threatening to Odium who may choose to target Harmony above all others should he escape the Rosharan system.

There is also the fact that the leader of the Ghostbloods, Thaidakar, has a personal history with Harmony and is looking to transfer Investiture across the cosmere to various Shardworlds, and is shaping up to be a long-term threat within the Stormlight Archive. Given all of these factors put together, I put it at a high probability that Harmony becomes involved in some fashion with the events of Stormlight Archive.

 

Autonomy

Autonomy is not one to risk themselves - but they are one to involve themselves in the matters of others. Autonomy - or an Avatar of Autonomy at least - was dismissive of Wit's letter and even praised the initiative of Odium. That said, Autonomy notes that, "Perhaps if you had approached the correct one of us with your plea, it would have found favourable audience." This leads open the possibility that there is an Avatar of Autonomy that would be willing to listen to Wit's overtures. Further, Autonomy says, "If you wish more, seek these waters in person and overcome the tests we have created. Only in this will you earn our respect." So once more leaving the doors open for a change of view.

Further, (or perhaps however,) Brandon was asked at Jordancon 2018 whether the Ghostbloods were affiliated with Autonomy and responded: ""Affiliated with" is very wiggle-room-ish. And so I'll go ahead and give you a RAFO on that one, even though I can totally wiggle on this one. I'm just gonna say "RAFO"; I'm gonna do the ultimate wiggle. There have been dealings." Given the coy nature of Brandon, I would not put it past him that the implication here is that an Avatar of Autonomy is in some fashion working alongside the Ghostbloods or have similar aims. Though that would suggest that Autonomy will be involved with SA due to a relationship with the Ghostbloods, given the Ghostbloods are acting as a third-party in this conflict on Roshar it may be that Autonomy will similar keep a distance from the conflict.

I think there is a moderate chance that an Avatar of Autonomy appears in The Stormlight Archive, but that Autonomy herself will not make an active contribution to the plot.

 

Endowment

Endowment is the first Shard that Wit gains a response from and it is not a positive one. Endowment shows little concern for the Splintering of any of the Shards, noting that the Shards were meant to stay apart from one another. However, there is a slight glimmer of hope as Endowment's letter ends: "If Rayse becomes an issue, he will be dealt with. And so will you." This leaves open the possibility that Endowment may be encouraged to become involved in the conflicts, should Odium escape the confines of the Oathpact. Harmony writes in his letter that, "Endowment at least responded to my overtures," which again is suggestive that Endowment has the potential to be reasoned with.

There is also a large crossover between Nalthis, the Shardworld that Endowment inhabits, and Roshar, in terms of characters. Nightblood, Vasher and Vivenna are all currently on Roshar, three of the main characters of Warbreaker. Brandon has noted that Nightblood's creation was based off of Shardblades, and that Warbreaker's intended sequel might not go ahead. There is every potential that this sequel is being folded in with The Stormlight Archive, as Vivenna is established as looking for Vasher whilst Nightblood has been used to slay Rayse and is in the hands of Szeth. With the amount of crossover between the characters, I find it compelling that Endowment may become involved in Stormlight Archives later on, purely from a meta standpoint.

 

The Missing Two

Naturally we do not know what these are, but I think it is safe to say that neither will make an appearance in the Stormlight Archives. The putting forward of the RoW Shards, to me, suggested that Brandon had decided names for these Shards and knew that they were unlikely to get their own dedicated novels as he prioritises what books he will be writing over the next few decades and so was happy to drop them in. That two of these names have been held back makes me feel that Brandon still intends for these to be important to some future novel, and for that to be the case it seems likely to me that they will not have a strong overlap with the Stormlight Archives.

 

Cultivation

Naturally, Cultivation is on Roshar. Cultivation will appear. Has appeared already. I simply finish on Cultivation to note this - we have been told Odium is dangerous to the cosmere at large, but we have not yet been shown it. We have not had revealed to us the full destructive potential of a Shard of hatred. And Cultivation is currently mentoring Taravangian in understanding the scope of his powers - and to her own detriment, I believe. I think, from a narrative standpoint, it makes sense that Odium will succeed in Splintering Cultivation, which will lead to the rolling in of wider cosmere-aware individuals. I suspect this will happen within the next two books, and with Odium being the sole Shard left on Roshar will leave the door open for new Shards to take the focus in these stories.

 

Conclusion

My first conclusion: I need a copy editor. Apologies for the long ramble.

My second conclusion: I feel that it is essentially guaranteed that we will get more Harmony in some form in SA, but that in terms of "on screen" appearances of intimate Shard interactions and not simply sending the occasional mistborn helper, that the Shard of Valour is the most likely to become central to the Stormlight Archives. I also suspect that Endowment may also end up being deeply involved, though for rather complex reasons. Outside of that, my sense is that the other Shards will not be participants in the greater war for the Rosharan system - and the expanded war on the greater cosmere that Odium will no doubt unleash in the back five of these books.

 

Thank you for your patience in reading this and I would be grateful to hear your thoughts. 

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, Cusicesh said:

Harmony notes that he was unable to locate Invention following their initial contact, though whether this is due to Invention choosing to remain hidden or a practical reality of a Shard that is not bound to a singular planet travelling across the cosmere is unclear. It is my current interpretation that, as Shards are likely capable of communicating through the Spiritual Realm, Invention is choosing not to be contacted and can be discarded as an option.

Here's a couple WoBs that are probably about Invention (Spoilered for length)

Spoiler

Quote

Seonid

I've heard about a Shard that just wants to survive, hiding off-- it doesn't have a planet it doesn't--

Brandon Sanderson

Right.

Seonid

--out there in space, trying to survive. Does it have the intent of like Fear, or something like that?

Brandon Sanderson

The intent is related but only tangentially. Mostly it just knows what's going on and is smart enough to get out of there.

Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016)

Quote

Paleo (paraphrased)

Is Wisdom a Shard? If so, how bad does it want to survive?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There is a Shard with a similar intent. The Shard has realized that survival might not be the most desirable/important.

Footnote: Paleo later asked Brandon for clarification on this one because he couldn't quite remember the survival part when he wrote it down. Brandon stressed again what the Shard has realized.
Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

Quote

Chaos

Give us the name of a Shard's intent we have not seen before.

Brandon Sanderson

There is one who just wants to hide and survive.

General Signed Books 2011 (Nov. 8, 2011)

 

 

Edited October 15, 2021 by Nameless

[mathiau]

1 hour ago, Cusicesh said:

Splintered Shards

 

Of the sixteen Shards, there are four known to have been Splintered and rendered, for all intents and purposes, deceased: Honour, Devotion, Dominion and Ambition. Whilst splinters of these Shards are present in Stormlight, (the spren of Honour and the seons of Devotion,) these do not constitute full Shards and can be safely dismissed.

 

There is a slight potential that Honour's Splintering was not as straight-forward as the destruction of these other Shards, as it is clear that the Shard put contingency plans in place before he deceased. So there is a very unlikely, but not zero percent, chance that Honour may reappear in the series at a later date.
 

Any Splintered Shard can be reformed

Quote

Knocking off two Shards with one Vessel is Harmony, the combined powers of Ruin and Preservation. Harmony is the most receptive of all of the beings Wit has written to. Harmony recognises the risk of Odium and agrees with Wit that the other Shards should intervene before the problem escapes the Rosharan system. Harmony notes that he is searching for, "the ideal person to act on my behalf. [...] A sword, you might say," though whether such a champion is intended to represent Harmony's will outside of Scadrial or simply within it is unclear.

It would definitely be fun to see Wax come to Roshar

Quote

Endowment

I suspect she consider sending Nightblood to Roshar to be enough

Quote

And Cultivation is currently mentoring Taravangian in understanding the scope of his powers - and to her own detriment, I believe.

Do not underestimate the Gardener, Rayse made that mistake and we know where that led him.

Quote

I think, from a narrative standpoint, it makes sense that Odium will succeed in Splintering Cultivation, which will lead to the rolling in of wider cosmere-aware individuals.

It does. But it also makes narrative sense for her to win.

29 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Here's a couple WoBs that are probably about Invention (Spoilered for length)

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Actually, the first WoB contradicts the idea that Invention is the Shard in Hidding

Quote

Seonid

I've heard about a Shard that just wants to survive, hiding off-- it doesn't have a planet it doesn't--

Brandon Sanderson

Right.

Seonid

--out there in space, trying to survive. Does it have the intent of like Fear, or something like that?

Brandon Sanderson

The intent is related but only tangentially. Mostly it just knows what's going on and is smart enough to get out of there.

Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016)

Invention is not tangentially related to survival.

[+Oltux72]

5 hours ago, Cusicesh said:

It is also an Intent that, judging by name alone, sounds most likely to want to intervene when it comes to Odium's machinations.

Can she, though? There seems to be disagreement among the Shards on the binding nature of the agreement to not interfere with one another. Valour may be required for Odium to fire the first shot.

5 hours ago, Cusicesh said:

Mercy is not to be discounted too quickly. Harmony notes, "Mercy worries me," and that, "Ambition, Mercy and Odium clashed - and Ambition was destroyed." There are many things that could be read into this, though the likeliest interpretation is that the actions of Mercy in some fashion aided the goals of Odium. This is not a Shard that Wit would want to approach, and I do not believe it as likely that Mercy will feature in The Stormlight Archives.

You are assuming that Odium is not forming a coalition of his own. Why wouldn't he?

5 hours ago, Cusicesh said:

Cultivation

 

Naturally, Cultivation is on Roshar. Cultivation will appear. Has appeared already. I simply finish on Cultivation to note this - we have been told Odium is dangerous to the cosmere at large, but we have not yet been shown it. We have not had revealed to us the full destructive potential of a Shard of hatred. And Cultivation is currently mentoring Taravangian in understanding the scope of his powers - and to her own detriment, I believe.

Not really. Cultivation has no interest at all in bringing war to Roshar. I believe her strategy to be the simplest of all. She wants Odium to be someone else's problem. She had a personal vendetta against Rayse, but that is finished. She wants to free him.

5 hours ago, Cusicesh said:

I think, from a narrative standpoint, it makes sense that Odium will succeed in Splintering Cultivation, which will lead to the rolling in of wider cosmere-aware individuals. I suspect this will happen within the next two books, and with Odium being the sole Shard left on Roshar will leave the door open for new Shards to take the focus in these stories.

 

Taravangian is no fool. Why risk himself in a fight against somebody not hostile?

5 hours ago, Cusicesh said:

Outside of that, my sense is that the other Shards will not be participants in the greater war for the Rosharan system - and the expanded war on the greater cosmere that Odium will no doubt unleash in the back five of these books.

I am afraid, you need to look at their respective strategies to understand how the Shards will intervene. Hoid's strategy did not sound to me like he wanted an intervention on Roshar. He is seeing Roshar as a way to delay Odium while the coaltion he is forming would arm itself. And Cultivation has other interests as well. Odium's main weapon in a way is Roshar. Now, what do you do to your enemy's main weapon, especially while it is not finished and what does Cultivation think about that?

[Benkinsky]

14 hours ago, Cusicesh said:

I also note that Honour and Valour seem thematically very similar concepts, though clearly their Intents must be quite distinct for Brandon to choose to separate the two ideas. That being the case, the best manner in which to showcase the difference between the two would be to have Valour appear in a series that has so-far heavily focused on Honour. It is also an Intent that, judging by name alone, sounds most likely to want to intervene when it comes to Odium's machinations.

I agree on this. While Scadrial had Destruction vs NotDestruction as the shardic conflict, SA is a lot more personal than that, with Hate vs Virtues as a big conflict. Valor definitely fits into that conflict better. And I agree that SA 6-10 would be a great time to clear up the differences between Honor and Valor.

I have a theory that like Endowment, Valor might already be present on Roshar a little bit, with Vivenna's Blade.

[+Oltux72]

3 minutes ago, Benkinsky said:

I agree on this. While Scadrial had Destruction vs NotDestruction as the shardic conflict, SA is a lot more personal than that, with Hate vs Virtues as a big conflict. Valor definitely fits into that conflict better.

A good eastern Rosharan viewpoint. Cultivation is disregarded.

3 minutes ago, Benkinsky said:

And I agree that SA 6-10 would be a great time to clear up the differences between Honor and Valor.

Isn't valor just courage in warfare without regard to the aspect of integrity, that is you can be a valorous traitor, but with Honor that is a no-go?

 

[Frustration]

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Can she, though? There seems to be disagreement among the Shards on the binding nature of the agreement to not interfere with one another. Valour may be required for Odium to fire the first shot.

That's a big if, as the "agreement" was only seen as an oath by a few shards.

[StanLemon]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

A good eastern Rosharan viewpoint. Cultivation is disregarded.

Isn't valor just courage in warfare without regard to the aspect of integrity, that is you can be a valorous traitor, but with Honor that is a no-go?

 

Valor is more generally described a courage in the face of danger. Though most often associated with battles as there is great danger in battles. I think Valor is going to be more of a perseverance in the face of adversary kind of Shard

[LewsTherinTelescope]

11 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Can she, though? There seems to be disagreement among the Shards on the binding nature of the agreement to not interfere with one another. Valour may be required for Odium to fire the first shot.

Sazed does say that she's someone Hoid should approach again (and basically the only one of the sixteen who seems to have any positive feelings about Hoid lmao), so I doubt she's one of those who interpreted it as a hard oath. 

11 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

You are assuming that Odium is not forming a coalition of his own. Why wouldn't he?

Considering his goal is "kill everyone else and be the sole remaining God", probably difficult to convince many others to join him. Plus, he's using the fact the people he's attacked have been paired up and thus breaking what some see as a pact as an excuse, which as we see with Endowment and Autonomy's letters has helped keep the other Shards off his back, so partnering with others would ruin this logic.

11 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Cultivation has no interest at all in bringing war to Roshar. I believe her strategy to be the simplest of all. She wants Odium to be someone else's problem. 

And yet, she alongside Honor participated in his binding to the system (the Stormfather says her power and Honor's bind Odium's like the Oathpact), which would be odd if she didn't want him to be stuck there. She also worked with Honor to make the Sibling for the war effort, and the Nightwatcher has made Bondsmiths for that as well. She's been subtle with her direct actions, but she's been involved with all this from the start. 

Her plan with Taravangian also explicitly called for helping him control the Intent (making someone who can "bear this power with honor") and teaching him how to use it, which doesn't sound like she doesn't care and just wants it out, either. 

11 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Taravangian is no fool. Why risk himself in a fight against somebody not hostile?

I do agree here. Maybe in the long term he'd consider it, or if she acted to stop his plans, but if he can have a friendly Vessel in his home base who is willing to teach him and help him improve his abilities and knowledge, I don't think he'll throw it away so quickly, especially when he's new to things and she is not. 

3 hours ago, Benkinsky said:

I have a theory that like Endowment, Valor might already be present on Roshar a little bit, with Vivenna's Blade.

I don't know about Vivenna's Blade, but I did see someone else here point out something that originally I was skeptical of but that I've come around on because it fits so oddly well: Taravangian's moment of bravery. 

Quote

Bravery surged through him, so powerfully he could not help but move. It was the dying courage of a man on the front lines charging an enemy army. The glory of a woman fighting for her child. The feeling of an old man on his last day of life stepping into darkness.

Bravery.

It's phrased remarkably similarly to the way the Intents of Ruin, Preservation, and Odium were displayed. Bravery, dying courage, glory of fighting to defend, the feeling of stepping off into the unknown.... those definitely sound like rather valorous concepts.

And the moment is accompanied by him seeming to hear a voice right when he thought he failed that pointed out the opportunity, which could definitely just be an internal monologue, but with the other stuff...

Quote

How had he thought to outthink a god when stupid? He couldn’t do that when smart. No wonder he’d failed.

Did you fail?

The sword is here.

Odium is here.

Cold steel bit Taravangian’s skin as Szeth stabbed him right in the chest. At the same moment, Taravangian felt something pushing through his fear, his pain. An emotion he’d never thought to feel himself. Bravery.

For reference, the description of Ruin:

Quote

In that other place, he found destruction.

Decay. Not blackness, for blackness was too complete, too whole to represent this thing he sensed in the Beyond. It was a vast force that would gleefully take something as simple as darkness, then rip it apart.

This force was time infinite. It was the winds that weathered, the storms that broke, the timeless waves running slowly, slowly, slowly to a stop as the sun and the planet cooled to nothing.

It was the ultimate end and destiny of all things. And it was angry.

Preservation:

Quote

And in that moment, Kelsier was reminded why he had named this creature a god in the first place. There was an infinity beyond those eyes, a complement to the one trapped here in this Well. Fuzz was the infinity of a note held perfectly, never wavering. The majesty of a painting, frozen and still, capturing a slice of life from a time gone by. It was the power of many, many moments compressed somehow into one.

Odium:

Quote

This was something so terrible that it consumed light itself. It was hot. A radiance indescribable, intense heat and black fire, colored violet at the outside.

Burning.

Overwhelming.

Power.

It was the scream of a thousand warriors on the battlefield.

It was the moment of most sensual touch and ecstasy.

It was the sorrow of loss, the joy of victory.

And it was hatred. Deep, pulsing hatred with a pressure to turn all things molten. It was the heat of a thousand suns, it was the bliss of every kiss, it was the lives of all men wrapped up in one, defined by everything they felt.

It definitely feels like it fits the sort of pattern of these things, and just so happens to align neatly with the Intent of the one Shard that Harmony said seemed reasonable and wanted to speak with Hoid...

[mathiau]

31 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Preservation:

Quote

And in that moment, Kelsier was reminded why he had named this creature a god in the first place. There was an infinity beyond those eyes, a complement to the one trapped here in this Well. Fuzz was the infinity of a note held perfectly, never wavering. The majesty of a painting, frozen and still, capturing a slice of life from a time gone by. It was the power of many, many moments compressed somehow into one.

Some of this looks more like a description of the SR than of Preservation

[+Oltux72]

19 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Considering his goal is "kill everyone else and be the sole remaining God", probably difficult to convince many others to join him. Plus, he's using the fact the people he's attacked have been paired up and thus breaking what some see as a pact as an excuse, which as we see with Endowment and Autonomy's letters has helped keep the other Shards off his back, so partnering with others would ruin this logic.

Ambition?

19 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

And yet, she alongside Honor participated in his binding to the system (the Stormfather says her power and Honor's bind Odium's like the Oathpact), which would be odd if she didn't want him to be stuck there. She also worked with Honor to make the Sibling for the war effort, and the Nightwatcher has made Bondsmiths for that as well. She's been subtle with her direct actions, but she's been involved with all this from the start. 

If Honor would have fought anyway, what would have been her other options? Letting him, who was dear to her, be destroyed and then face Rayse-Odium alone? Run?

19 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Her plan with Taravangian also explicitly called for helping him control the Intent (making someone who can "bear this power with honor") and teaching him how to use it, which doesn't sound like she doesn't care and just wants it out, either. 

She needs him to stay in control for some time. Her motivation for teaching him could be quite base.

 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Ambition?

Considering she was at the very tip-top of his kill list, probably not much of an ally.

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

If Honor would have fought anyway, what would have been her other options? Letting him, who was dear to her, be destroyed and then face Rayse-Odium alone? Run?

Imprisoning him to the system feels like a pretty specific kind of sacrifice move. Could've just let Honor try and imprison him and then struck herself while he was doing that, or attacked together to try and drive him off, but instead they decided "nope, we're trapping him in, only one side is making it out alive", and potentially in a way that harmed them quite a lot depending on how close the Stormfather's analogy to the Oathpact is. This route doesn't feel like something that would be decided on unless both parties were onboard.

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

She needs him to stay in control for some time. Her motivation for teaching him could be quite base.

If all she wants is to just turn him out and doesn't really care, then she doesn't need that. Just make him swear to leave her alone and let him go, if necessary point out to him that he's got no idea what he's doing with the power and she can help if he agrees or attack otherwise. Maybe even stop him from grabbing the power at all without an agreement in place. Her plan may be simple or complicated, but either way it's clearly not just "doesn't matter as long as he's gone".

[NameIess]

4 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

If all she wants is to just turn him out and doesn't really care, then she doesn't need that. Just make him swear to leave her alone and let him go, if necessary point out to him that he's got no idea what he's doing with the power and she can help if he agrees or attack otherwise. Maybe even stop him from grabbing the power at all without an agreement in place. Her plan may be simple or complicated, but either way it's clearly not just "doesn't matter as long as he's gone".

I agree. If just getting rid of Odium were her goal, she could have just shattered the shard after Rayse got killed. No need to mess with a new host at all.

[+Oltux72]

9 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Considering she was at the very tip-top of his kill list, probably not much of an ally.

Yes, but she was alone. So he blew his ideological cover with the first hit.

9 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Imprisoning him to the system feels like a pretty specific kind of sacrifice move. Could've just let Honor try and imprison him and then struck herself while he was doing that, or attacked together to try and drive him off, but instead they decided "nope, we're trapping him in, only one side is making it out alive", and potentially in a way that harmed them quite a lot depending on how close the Stormfather's analogy to the Oathpact is.

The two against one strategy with direct resistance and combat had been tried. It failed, fatally so. Trying it against the one who learned most out of it was unwise.

9 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

This route doesn't feel like something that would be decided on unless both parties were onboard.

That is the problem when you ally with Honor. He won't join you as you take logical expidiency over honor. You can run, but then you'll be alone. And you will have to live with leaving behind somebody dear to yourself.

9 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

If all she wants is to just turn him out and doesn't really care, then she doesn't need that. Just make him swear to leave her alone and let him go, if necessary point out to him that he's got no idea what he's doing with the power and she can help if he agrees or attack otherwise.

And somebody with what it takes to kill a Shard's vessel would just agree to that? I have my doubts.

5 hours ago, Nameless said:

I agree. If just getting rid of Odium were her goal, she could have just shattered the shard after Rayse got killed. No need to mess with a new host at all.

Littering her backyard with a toxic corpse whose parts will become sentient in the best case. In the worst case she'd be wounded herself and some other Shard would take advantage of her weakness.

[Frustration]

7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes, but she was alone. So he blew his ideological cover with the first hit.

Depends on how involved Mercy was.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes, but she was alone. So he blew his ideological cover with the first hit.

Mercy was also involved in the fight, so it's quite likely imo that the two were there together (especially as the others seem to actually buy his excuse).

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

The two against one strategy with direct resistance and combat had been tried. It failed, fatally so. Trying it against the one who learned most out of it was unwise.

We don't really know how Sel and Threnody went down, exactly, but Mercy made it out alive, Ambition did make it out of the system before being Splintered, and D&D seem to have been putting themselves into the Cognitive Realm or something, and Odium ended up wounded from all of this in some way. Whether or not they'd be able to kill him is anyone's guess, but if Honor's there attempting to counter his actions and Cultivation's there attacking, it would probably have a higher shot of survival than what they did. But what they did is much more certain to keep him imprisoned there even after they die (as we see with Honor), if their highest priority is keeping him from attacking others rather than making it out in one piece themselves.

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

That is the problem when you ally with Honor. He won't join you as you take logical expidiency over honor. You can run, but then you'll be alone. And you will have to live with leaving behind somebody dear to yourself.

I'd be shocked if a Shard so focused around interpersonal connection wasn't willing to at least take the advice of his partner into account when deciding upon a course so detrimental to both themselves and the entire planet they're on.

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

And somebody with what it takes to kill a Shard's vessel would just agree to that? I have my doubts.

Unlike Rayse, she's well aware Nightblood is there. She can attack the power or grab it and move it elsewhere until Szeth walks off with the sword and T is left without it.

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Littering her backyard with a toxic corpse whose parts will become sentient in the best case.

Already the case, with the Everstorm, Voidspren, Fused, Unmade, etc. Gonna need to work out a way to handle that in either case. And ultimately sentient but non-sapient spren don't seem to be too much of an issue, considering that non-sapient normal spren kind of just are there, and sapient ones seem to require direct intention to create (which would allow adding in other Investitures to the process to control and direct things more, along with adding other non-Shardic focuses in the way the Radiant spren are based on Surges).

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

In the worst case she'd be wounded herself and some other Shard would take advantage of her weakness.

It's not exactly like it can fight back, and most of the other Shards have shown no inclination to attack anyone anyway (so far Odium seems to be the only one who's gone out and attacked others, even Ruin was content to settle down and make a planet until Preservation betrayed him).

[Inquisitor #5]

My first thought is basically "oh please, no." That is, I hope that there's no major Shardic interference from outside Roshar in SA.

As for the candidates:

On 2021-10-15 at 1:31 AM, Cusicesh said:

Rhythm of War Shards

Invention seemingly isn't amenable to conversation.

Whimsy seems plain unreliable, which is definitely what you want from a godlike being.

Mercy is hard to get a read on, we don't know if they acted with or against Odium (or if each of the three were on their own sides.)

Valor I agree is the likeliest to have an interventionist mindset, but may have Invested somewhere, precluding direct intervention.

On 2021-10-15 at 1:31 AM, Cusicesh said:

Harmony

Harmony is barely able to act and is anchored to Scadrial, direct intervention seems out of the question.

As for sending aid, I don't find it impossible, but his resources are limited to agents he's able to spare and who'd go willingly, as he generally is unwilling to compromise free will.

His main agents are also the kandra, who have the problem of being vulnerable to outside influence due to their nature.

So I could see a couple of agents showing up, maybe, if they managed to reach a Perpendicularity.

I also think the Ghostbloods are doing their own thing and would possibly even try to interfere with agents of Harmony.

On 2021-10-15 at 1:31 AM, Cusicesh said:

Autonomy

Autonomy seems unlikely to take overt action in a way that would risk her own neck.

We also know that Hoid has a grudge against Bavadin and judging by what's said in the letter about the new Avatar, the feeling is somewhat mutual, so them making common cause might just be less likely for personal reasons.

Though the same letter also mentions that another of them might have been receptive.

It's also unlikely that Hoid would seek to travel to First of the Sun at present, to overcome the tests, as that would require giving up his status as a Lightweaver and possibly killing a spren.

Moreover it seems likely that Odium's forces would still have a presence in Shadesmar, making worldhopping a more uncertain prospect.

On 2021-10-15 at 1:31 AM, Cusicesh said:

Endowment

Seems fine with just sitting around making super-zombies, unless something comes up.

Is also anchored to Nalthis by Investing there.

Also, IIRC, there's a WoB mentioning that the intelligence that picks the Returned shifts the reason for doing so often, or something like that, so Endowment might not be the most reliable Shard.

On 2021-10-15 at 1:31 AM, Cusicesh said:

Cultivation

Is already involved and is possibly playing 5D chess with Taravangian, honestly, who knows?

I really hope that if he ends up killing her and splintering Cultivation, that it won't lead to new Shards moving in. That would feel incredibly cheap to me.

"Honor's dead, but we have I can't believe it's not Honor."

It also feels like it would be kinda out of nowhere.

In any case, both Koravari and Taravangian currently believe that they're the one with the upper hand and they have no reason to openly oppose eachother.

On 2021-10-15 at 3:24 AM, mathiau said:

Any Splintered Shard can be reformed

While I do think this is entirely true, I will steadfastly hold to the position that we've seen no mechanic confirmed to be able to reforge a Shard.

On 2021-10-15 at 3:24 AM, mathiau said:

I suspect she consider sending Nightblood to Roshar to be enough

I suspect, since I don't think Endowment has much of an overarching plan, that she did not in fact send it anywhere.

Even if Nightblood is definitely the most tangible and impactful extra-Rosharan anything in the system.

I suppose if Saze wants to compete he'll just have to send a copy of the Bands over. 

And if the same person gets ahold of both, well, Roshar was fun while it lasted, better luck next planet...

On 2021-10-15 at 3:24 AM, mathiau said:

Do not underestimate the Gardener, Rayse made that mistake and we know where that led him.

To be fair, it wasn't like she talked to him, unlike Taravangian.

It'll probably be harder to play him than the walking temper-tantrum she presumably knew as both a person and a Vessel. 

But I wouldn't be suprised if both of them were to engage in a riveting game of 5D chess at eachother.

On 2021-10-15 at 3:24 AM, mathiau said:

It does. But it also makes narrative sense for her to win.

Cultivation as the ultimate villain of SA!

(I'm not saying it'll happen, just that it's plausible and wouldn't suprise me.)

On 2021-10-15 at 7:28 AM, Oltux72 said:

You are assuming that Odium is not forming a coalition of his own. Why wouldn't he?

For Rayse, it would have ruined his moral high-ground, he made sure to have plausible deniability for his killings.

On top of that, he wishes to be the only god, which is kind of not conducive to long-term alliances with others of that same kind.

For Taravangian, well:

Quote

But . . . beyond that, what of the entire cosmere? He couldn't see that far yet. Perhaps he would eventually be able to. But he did know his predecessor's plans, and had access to some of his knowledge. So Taravangian knew the cosmere was in chaos. Ruled by fools. Presided over by broken gods.

-Rhytm of War, chapter 114

Taravangian doesn't seem to hold the rest of the Vessels in high esteem, judging by them being "fools" and "broken gods."

On 2021-10-15 at 7:28 AM, Oltux72 said:

Not really. Cultivation has no interest at all in bringing war to Roshar. I believe her strategy to be the simplest of all. She wants Odium to be someone else's problem. She had a personal vendetta against Rayse, but that is finished. She wants to free him.

While I do think that she doesn't wish war and desolation on Roshar, I'm not sure she wants Odium to be someone else's problem.

Helping a new Vessel take their first steps is perfect for making sure their preconceptions come from you, that you will be the guide for their power.

I've mentioned in another thread that I think an element of Cultivation is control, and I think she might have a hard time letting go and letting others be independent.

And now she's perfectly poised to control a second Shard without all the pesky baggage of taking it for herself.

She can be read as a web-weaver and manipulator and I think there may be merit to that reading.

On 2021-10-15 at 3:36 PM, Benkinsky said:

I have a theory that like Endowment, Valor might already be present on Roshar a little bit, with Vivenna's Blade.

I just have to ask, why?

I'm not meaning to say you're wrong or throw shade, but that came so completely out of nowhere to me, so I very much want to know.

On 2021-10-15 at 7:12 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

On 2021-10-15 at 7:28 AM, Oltux72 said:

Taravangian is no fool. Why risk himself in a fight against somebody not hostile?

I do agree here. Maybe in the long term he'd consider it, or if she acted to stop his plans, but if he can have a friendly Vessel in his home base who is willing to teach him and help him improve his abilities and knowledge, I don't think he'll throw it away so quickly, especially when he's new to things and she is not. 

I also agree here, there's no reason to risk open confrontation yet.

If we look at how Taravangian views confrontation:

Quote

There was so much to do. He sorted through Odium's previous plans and saw all their flaws. How had he let himself be maneuvered into this particular deal with Dalinar? Didn't he know? The way to win was so make sure that, no matter the outcome, you were satisfied. Odium should never have entered a deal he could not absolutely control.

-Rhythm of War, chapter 114, bolding mine

He has no way of guaranteeing a desirable outcome for himself, should he attack Cultivation. Ergo, to do so would put him on Rayse's level, ergo he probably won't.

On 2021-10-15 at 7:12 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Taravangian's moment of bravery. 

Quote

Bravery surged through him, so powerfully he could not help but move. It was the dying courage of a man on the front lines charging an enemy army. The glory of a woman fighting for her child. The feeling of an old man on his last day of life stepping into darkness.

Bravery.

It's phrased remarkably similarly to the way the Intents of Ruin, Preservation, and Odium were displayed. Bravery, dying courage, glory of fighting to defend, the feeling of stepping off into the unknown.... those definitely sound like rather valorous concepts.

Huh, neat.

On 2021-10-17 at 4:08 AM, Nameless said:

I agree. If just getting rid of Odium were her goal, she could have just shattered the shard after Rayse got killed. No need to mess with a new host at all.

Yeah, that tracks.

Of course, if the new Vessel is right there and Ascends before you have a chance to do that, then the plan goes out the window.

On 2021-10-17 at 9:19 AM, Oltux72 said:

Quote

If all she wants is to just turn him out and doesn't really care, then she doesn't need that. Just make him swear to leave her alone and let him go, if necessary point out to him that he's got no idea what he's doing with the power and she can help if he agrees or attack otherwise.

And somebody with what it takes to kill a Shard's vessel would just agree to that? I have my doubts.

Are you talking about Nightblood here?

Because even if he still had it post Ascension it'd be in a "food coma" and once it wakes up he's got no scabard, so he'll presumably suffer the same fate as Rayse, just slower.

And if it's not about Nightblood, what does Odium have for killing a Vessel?

On 2021-10-17 at 9:19 AM, Oltux72 said:

Littering her backyard with a toxic corpse whose parts will become sentient in the best case.

I mean, have Honor's remains had an appreciable impact in any way whatsoever? Then why would Odium's?

 

 

¤_¤

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Also, IIRC, there's a WoB mentioning that the intelligence that picks the Returned shifts the reason for doing so often, or something like that, so Endowment might not be the most reliable Shard.

She is "not necessarily the most consistent of entities in the cosmere when it comes to making decisions like this" and "can be somewhat...erratic", yeah.

1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I suspect, since I don't think Endowment has much of an overarching plan, that she did not in fact send it anywhere.

On the other hand, it got made by a few Returned, to end a war between Returned, motivated by competition with another Returned, and was brought to Roshar by a Returned (potentially after confronting Yesteel... a Returned), as well as that Endowment was more involved in NB's creation than usual, though not to the extent some think. And we know that Vasher has not yet fulfilled his purpose nor really had a chance to, but that we will find it out eventually and that the Everstorm signals something bad for him. Combine that with her confidence that "if Rayse becomes an issue, he will be dealt with", and I think it seems an awful lot like she wanted NB there. 

I think the trick is, the Returned have free will, and she doesn't try to control them after they come back. Brandon's said that "It's a nature of Endowment that the gift is given without strings attached, so to speak" when talking about why Breath isn't tied to a planet, and the way he puts it ("it's a nature of Endowment") makes me think it's pretty inherent to the power. She can give the Returned a choice to try and Return to accomplish something and give them a second chance, but they aren't bound to do as she wishes or even as they wished when accepting, if they don't want to. So her plans can't be as simple as "get this guy to do this", they have to be more of the form "find someone who wants to do x and someone who will respond to x in one of y different ways and lead to any of z outcomes that I'd be pleased with". For example, Blushweaver wanted to attack Idris, while Lightsong wanted to stop the war, both of which could result in the Court of Gods surviving (and so a mechanism for Returned with longer-term goals to be able to survive), but it's up to them and their desires to try and convince the other to do what's necessary and pick which path will actually happen, not something Endowment can order them to do. Hence, the Returned don't all have a consistent purpose, they just seem likely to push things any of multiple different ways she'll be happy about.

And I think this is why she can simultaneously talk about the pact not to interfere while also seeming rather likely (in my opinion) to be behind Nightblood ending up on Roshar: she is not interfering nor making people interfere. Independent agents are interfering, of their own free will and uncoerced, she just gave them a free gift that they decided they wanted to use that way. (Whether that actually counts as a valid excuse or not is up to debate, but if in her mind it works, I think that's enough.)

2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Because even if he still had it post Ascension it'd be in a "food coma"

Oh hm that's another good point I forgot about as well. Yeah, it's not gonna work too well for killing another Vessel right away.

2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I mean, have Honor's remains had an appreciable impact in any way whatsoever? Then why would Odium's?

Iirc it's been mentioned there are more spren nowadays, but still nothing on the level of, say, Threnody or Sel, so it does seem like Splintering can be a lot calmer, yeah.

[mathiau]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

It's also unlikely that Hoid would seek to travel to First of the Sun at present, to overcome the tests, as that would require giving up his status as a Lightweaver and possibly killing a spren.

It doesn't actually, it has been confirmed Sprens can leave their planets, Kalak is close to finding how.

Quote

Moreover it seems likely that Odium's forces would still have a presence in Shadesmar, making worldhopping a more uncertain prospect.

With the Sibling back in business every Oathgate controlled by the coalition is effectively a Perpendicularity.

Quote

Is also anchored to Nalthis by Investing there.

 Endowment's investiture is known to be the easiest to move between planets. Though it's supposed to be because she wouldn't be the goddess of gifts if her gifts came with strings attached so it might not apply to herself.

Quote

While I do think this is entirely true, I will steadfastly hold to the position that we've seen no mechanic confirmed to be able to reforge a Shard.

Depends on whether Dalinar temporarily Ascending count or not

Quote

To be fair, it wasn't like she talked to him, unlike Taravangian.

I don't see how this excuse him for underestimating the woman he fought for millennia.

Quote

It'll probably be harder to play him than the walking temper-tantrum she presumably knew as both a person and a Vessel. 

Fair

Quote

Cultivation as the ultimate villain of SA!

(I'm not saying it'll happen, just that it's plausible and wouldn't suprise me.)

I was more thinking in the lines of Cultivation as one of the ultimate neutral of the Cosmere, possibly fighting the other ultimate neutral Harmony/Discord

Quote

For Taravangian, well:

-Rhytm of War, chapter 114

Taravangian doesn't seem to hold the rest of the Vessels in high esteem, judging by them being "fools" and "broken gods."

Taravagian isn't above allying himself with people he thinks are fools *cough* Dalinar *cough*

13 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Iirc it's been mentioned there are more spren nowadays, but still nothing on the level of, say, Threnody or Sel, so it does seem like Splintering can be a lot calmer, yeah.

I think it was the opposite actually, there are were more sprens on Roshar than on Sel when Honour died so they could act as a pressure release valve and avoid him leaking to much in the CR.

Also I don't think there are any spren on Threnody aside of the Evil (no Splinter type Sprens at least, there are obviously CSs). And Ambition was not Splintered there but on another planet

[LewsTherinTelescope]

39 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I think it was the opposite actually, there are were more sprens on Roshar than on Sel when Honour died so they could act as a pressure release valve and avoid him leaking to much in the CR.

Also I don't think there are any spren on Threnody aside of the Evil (no Splinter type Sprens at least, there are obviously CSs). And Ambition was not Splintered there but on another planet

I don't mean that those planets have more spren, to be clear, I was referring to the effects on the planet in general. Roshar has some more spren, but Sel has a giant plasma storm infusing the Cognitive Realm, and Threnody has... a mess.

[Benkinsky]

17 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I just have to ask, why?

I'm not meaning to say you're wrong or throw shade, but that came so completely out of nowhere to me, so I very much want to know.

haha, yeah, that's fair

 here's the longer version, but I'll copy a part of the argument here.

I think the key to understanding why Azure's blade is so different from Nightblood is that it was created with another shards investiture in it. I'm a big fan of grouping shards not into "good" and "bad". In this case, I think the distinction we need to be looking for is "involved" and "distant/apathetic", if that makes sense. What I mean by that is that Endowment, for example, gives you your breath and the rest is up to you, which is in line with her role/intent. On the other hand, the Knight's Radiant have a lot of checks and balances included in their magic system + their oaths, which line up with Honor. I believe we see a hint of Valor's character in Azure's blade:

Quote

Upon someone drawing Vivenna's Blade for the first time, they will feel a tingling sensation as the Blade investigates them.[6]

Does that remind anyone else of Mjölnir? The weapon investigating the wielder, pssibly checking to see if you are "worthy".

- We don't see the signature black smoke or any of the symptoms both Vasher and Szeth displayed when Nightblood fed on their Investiture when Azure used her blade. The black smoke seems to be because is Nightblood is filled over-the-brim with Investiture, but the other symptoms are It eating Investiture. Azure's blade didn't display that. I think this is due to two factors:

1. a different command, more refined and well-crafted than Nightblood's.

2. some kind of inherent difference, that leaves less to the Blade itself. The Blade's sentience seems to be more rudimentary than Nightbloods, whose sentience might stem in part from the character of the Investiture it was awakened with: Endowment.

Nightblood is already the result of using one magic system to create an hommage to another, Awakening to imitate a Shardblade. Whose to say we can't go one degree further, Awakening with Valor's investiture to imitate a Shardblade. The combination of a more refined command plus the nature of Valor's investiture result in a blade a lot less volatile.

 

there's more to it than that, but for me it's the part I quoted that got me thinking about this idea. this "investigation", especially in the series that properly introduced bonds, the nahel bonds.

 

@Quantus also raised the very good point

Quote

Im in the camp that the secret to Nightblood is that the 1000 Breaths plus the Command actually forged a primal Connection to a Shard, which is why it has significantly more Investiture than just the 1000 breaths themselves.  He's known to behave differently once drawn because "his Command takes force" which I think is hardcore channeling the Shardic Intent most aligned with it's Command.  In Nightblood's case Destroy Evil forged a Connection to Ruin, the primordial expression of Entropy, and that's why he destroys in all three Realms.  If Azure's blade where made with the same general method but a different Command, I could entirely see it creating a Connection to some other Shard that would then manifest different powers/effects because she's drawing from some shard other than the Ruin that is in/behind Nightblood.  

 

[Inquisitor #5]

On 2021-10-18 at 7:22 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

On the other hand, it got made by a few Returned, to end a war between Returned, motivated by competition with another Returned, and was brought to Roshar by a Returned (potentially after confronting Yesteel... a Returned), as well as that Endowment was more involved in NB's creation than usual, though not to the extent some think. And we know that Vasher has not yet fulfilled his purpose nor really had a chance to, but that we will find it out eventually and that the Everstorm signals something bad for him. Combine that with her confidence that "if Rayse becomes an issue, he will be dealt with", and I think it seems an awful lot like she wanted NB there. 

Yeah, that's fair.

I suppose Endowment being fickle doesn't mean that she would engage in no forward planning.

She might not have intended for Nightblood to end up on Roshar naturally, but it being there isn't detrimental to her plans, as it was always intended to be an anti-Rayse weapon.

On 2021-10-18 at 7:22 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I think the trick is, the Returned have free will, and she doesn't try to control them after they come back. Brandon's said that "It's a nature of Endowment that the gift is given without strings attached, so to speak" when talking about why Breath isn't tied to a planet, and the way he puts it ("it's a nature of Endowment") makes me think it's pretty inherent to the power. She can give the Returned a choice to try and Return to accomplish something and give them a second chance, but they aren't bound to do as she wishes or even as they wished when accepting, if they don't want to. So her plans can't be as simple as "get this guy to do this", they have to be more of the form "find someone who wants to do x and someone who will respond to x in one of y different ways and lead to any of z outcomes that I'd be pleased with".

I suppose she thinks a lot like Taravangian then, make sure that no matter the outcome you're satisfied and all that.

On 2021-10-18 at 7:22 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

For example, Blushweaver wanted to attack Idris, while Lightsong wanted to stop the war, both of which could result in the Court of Gods surviving (and so a mechanism for Returned with longer-term goals to be able to survive), but it's up to them and their desires to try and convince the other to do what's necessary and pick which path will actually happen, not something Endowment can order them to do. Hence, the Returned don't all have a consistent purpose, they just seem likely to push things any of multiple different ways she'll be happy about.

I like this line of thinking, makes Edgli come off as smartly working around the inherent restrictions of Endowment and good at lateral thinking.

On 2021-10-18 at 7:22 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

And I think this is why she can simultaneously talk about the pact not to interfere while also seeming rather likely (in my opinion) to be behind Nightblood ending up on Roshar: she is not interfering nor making people interfere. Independent agents are interfering, of their own free will and uncoerced, she just gave them a free gift that they decided they wanted to use that way. (Whether that actually counts as a valid excuse or not is up to debate, but if in her mind it works, I think that's enough.)

Oh, she's definitely not breaking any binding agreement from her point of view, IMO. That would be far too great a risk and who knows if subsequent violations would lead to further damage.

There's also something darkly amusing to her behaving kind of like the US/USSR during the Cold War, she just enables other people to fight for her interests and is definitely not moving against other Shards. Casts her in a way darker light.

On 2021-10-18 at 8:26 PM, mathiau said:

It doesn't actually, it has been confirmed Sprens can leave their planets, Kalak is close to finding how.

Kalak being close to finding it is very different from him knowing how to do it. And that in turn is removed from other people generally, and Hoid specifically, knowing how to do it.

I don't think it reasonable to assume that Hoid knows how to do it at the end of RoW.

So at SA present I don't find the assertion that he'd have to give up his Radiance one way or another to get away from Greater Roshar to be improbable.

Theoretically possible, yes, known to Hoid, probably not.

On 2021-10-18 at 8:26 PM, mathiau said:

With the Sibling back in business every Oathgate controlled by the coalition is effectively a Perpendicularity.

Oh, I don't think getting to Shadesmar would be the problem, the problem would be if the Fused still held power in places like Celebrant.

Remember that Hoid remarks that if he was spotted Rayse would tear Kholinar down stone-by-stone to find him, or something like that, at the end of Oathbringer.

Presumably any Fused stationed in Shadesmar would also know to look for him.

Thus Worldhopping is a more uncertain prospect than usual.

On 2021-10-18 at 8:26 PM, mathiau said:

Endowment's investiture is known to be the easiest to move between planets. Though it's supposed to be because she wouldn't be the goddess of gifts if her gifts came with strings attached so it might not apply to herself.

I would assume that she's still tied to it, even if it's not tied to her.

It wouldn't sit right with me if something that seems to be a fundamental rule for Shards had such a major exception.

On 2021-10-18 at 8:26 PM, mathiau said:

Depends on whether Dalinar temporarily Ascending count or not

He obviously wasn't taking up the whole Shard in that moment, as he's still walking around on Roshar.

I also feel like, if nothing else, Taravangian should have noticed another power just lying around when he Ascended if Honor had been reformed.

Or Rayse should have dropped some hint that he had to re-Splinter Honor, or somesuch. That could even work as another reason he was so weakened in RoW.

And in any case, even if that was a method by which a Shard can be restored, we have no confirmation of it doing so.

Just like spren leaving Roshar, it's a theoretical possibility that we have no confirmed examples of or mechanics for.

On 2021-10-18 at 8:26 PM, mathiau said:

I don't see how this excuse him for underestimating the woman he fought for millennia.

Oh, it's not, but she's at least feigning openness to Taravangian, while she was presumably scheming entirely behind Rayse's back.

On 2021-10-18 at 8:26 PM, mathiau said:

I was more thinking in the lines of Cultivation as one of the ultimate neutral of the Cosmere, possibly fighting the other ultimate neutral Harmony/Discord

Oh, I don't think that she will be a villain, just that she could be a villain.

On 2021-10-18 at 8:26 PM, mathiau said:

Taravagian isn't above allying himself with people he thinks are fools *cough* Dalinar *cough*

I suppose that's true, yeah. Though how much of an alliance it is when you're fully intending to undermine the other party is up for debate.

On 2021-10-19 at 10:28 AM, Benkinsky said:

I think the key to understanding why Azure's blade is so different from Nightblood is that it was created with another shards investiture in it.

Hmm

I feel that if the foremost known expert on Awakening theory hasn't figured it out with Stormlight, Azure's Blade is unlikely to have been made with another Shard's Investiture.

On 2021-10-19 at 10:28 AM, Benkinsky said:

I'm a big fan of grouping shards not into "good" and "bad".

110% agree.

On 2021-10-19 at 10:28 AM, Benkinsky said:

I believe we see a hint of Valor's character in Azure's blade:

Quote

Upon someone drawing Vivenna's Blade for the first time, they will feel a tingling sensation as the Blade investigates them.[6]

I think this is just Azure's Blade's version of Nightblood's affinity to people who have wielded it, or something like that.

On 2021-10-19 at 10:28 AM, Benkinsky said:

Does that remind anyone else of Mjölnir? The weapon investigating the wielder, pssibly checking to see if you are "worthy".

Huh, not at all, then again I've not really gotten into the MCU or the comics.

I also feel like letting a random spren handle the Blade would be very irresponisible if there was any risk associated with being found "unworthy" or even just a risk of offending the spren.

If either of those was the case, it would jeopardise her goals.

As a sidenote, seeing "Mjölir" is really odd to me, I'm so used to the English Mjolnir and my native Swedish puts it as Mjölner, so that looks like a weird inbetween version. 

On 2021-10-19 at 10:28 AM, Benkinsky said:

1. a different command, more refined and well-crafted than Nightblood's.

I'm wholly on board with this, Azure's Blade is at least version 0.2 to Nightblood's 0.1.

On 2021-10-19 at 10:28 AM, Benkinsky said:

2. some kind of inherent difference, that leaves less to the Blade itself. The Blade's sentience seems to be more rudimentary than Nightbloods, whose sentience might stem in part from the character of the Investiture it was awakened with: Endowment.

Something is definitely weird about Nightblood, and I do believe that Vasher notes that a thousand Breaths shouldn't have been enough to make Nightblood what it is. 

Theb there's this WoB:

Quote

Mason Wheeler

Nightblood is the most ridiculously over-invested thing in the Cosmere, second only to the Shards?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Mason Wheeler

Was this true from the moment of his creation, or did it grow in power over time.

Brandon Sanderson

Grew in power over time. Kind of answers a question that people have been wondering. But, yes.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

Which is interesting and probably a function of it consuming Investiture.

Hmm, it might be a similar process to Savantism, its Spiritual aspect inflating and warping from the sheer amount of Investiture.

In any case, I definitely agree that Nightblood seems "more" than Azure's Blade and that her Blade doesn't (significantly) draw Investiture from its wielder, as handing it to a spren would have been a very bad idea in that case.

I'm not sure one flavour of Investiture would be more likely to make something sapient than another, or if it is, Valor, Honor, Mercy and Odium are some of the candidates that feel likely to be more inclined toward it. I'd say that they are concepts that kind of require sapience to make sense.

Several of the others can also work wity the same mindset, but some are debatable. Endowment probably belongs in the "requires sapience" category, gifts freely given does not feel like something you find in nature. But say, Ruin and Preservation should not be particularly inclined towards sapience.

On 2021-10-19 at 10:28 AM, Benkinsky said:

Nightblood is already the result of using one magic system to create an hommage to another, Awakening to imitate a Shardblade. Whose to say we can't go one degree further, Awakening with Valor's investiture to imitate a Shardblade. The combination of a more refined command plus the nature of Valor's investiture result in a blade a lot less volatile.

As I've made clear, this doesn't really make sense to me.

I just don't find it probable that they'd have managed to figure that out, even if they got ahold of Valor's Investiture.

As for the quote from Quantus, I don't really see the mechanic for that, though some of it might have merit. I don't think the Investiture would have aligned 100% with another Shard, though if the leaking Investiture is in fact corrupted, then I could see it being an admixture of Endowment and something else.

 

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[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 10/25/2021 at 0:29 PM, Inquisitor #5 said:

Something is definitely weird about Nightblood, and I do believe that Vasher notes that a thousand Breaths shouldn't have been enough to make Nightblood what it is. 

Nightblood's super odd apparently.

Quote

Questioner

If Vasher and Shashara had Awakened a non-weapon in exactly the same way as Nightblood (say a shield), would the object exhibit the same properties as Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

So, if you said "destroy evil" to a shield... no, it wouldn't be exactly the same. The Command is the most important part of all of this, but the shape, how the weapon perceives itself, how you perceive it, is all gonna play into this. They're playing with some real dangerous stuff when they made Nightblood. And it didn't go as intended.

San Diego Comic-Con@Home 2020 (July 23, 2020)

Quote

Megasif

In London I wanted to ask about Nightblood. The way he is Invested, is that a one-off-case kind of thing, or is it possible to do another of that level?

Brandon Sanderson

It was really bizarre, and I will explain it eventually and that will let you know why. It's theoretically possible to do almost anything so it's theoretically possible to do what he did but it'd be very hard.

Oathbringer Leeds signing (Dec. 1, 2017)

Quote

Even Shashara hadn’t fully understood the process, though she had first devised it.

It took a person who had reached the Ninth Heightening to Awaken stone or steel. Even then, this process shouldn’t have worked. It should have created an Awakened object with no more of a mind than the tassels on his cloak.

Nightblood should not be alive. And yet he was.

Warbreaker, Chapter 51

(Man, citing WB is way easier than the others due to Brandon making it available online, lol.)

So the difference might just be that Vivenna's Blade lacks whatever it is that made Nightblood Nightblood instead of just a nonsapient lump of magicified metal.