Sir Anthony

Identity of the Sovereign

21 posts in this topic

I realize the currently accepted theory is that the Sovereign is Kelsier returned to the physical realm in a new body, and that Brandon has said some things that all but confirm this. (Like something about Kelsier nailing his soul to the new body with the spike through the eye.) I think people assume that Kelsier experimented with hemalurgy with Spook and was able to eventually come back with full feruchemical and allomantic powers (which he would have needed to make the Bands of Mourning, right?). Or that he came back with his own bones, spiked into a Kandra body (so he could still look like himself). 

However a number of things just don't add up for me:

  • How could Kelsier and Spook come up with these earth shattering technological breakthroughs so quickly? (It was only a few short years after the Catacendra.) Hemilurgy is so notoriously difficult that the Lord Ruler himself only made rudimentary breakthroughs during his 1000 years of rule, and that was mostly due to promptings from Ruin. (And it's unlikely Kelsier picked up this knowledge during his short tenure as Preservation.) And then creating the Bands of Mourning? Technology that the Southerners couldn't even come close to duplicating in 300 years?
  • How did Kelsier know that the Southerners needed help, or that they even existed in the first place? Even Harmony seems to have overlooked them to some extent. And again, how did he develop a technological solution to their specific problem so quickly?
  • Why would Kelsier create and then abandon the BoM, an object that could, in the wrong hands, enable a new Lord Ruler?
  • Why would Kelsier create that particular coin coppermind? And how did Hoid end up in possession of it? Those two aren't exactly on the best of terms.

My own theory is that Hoid was the Sovereign. Here are my reasons for thinking this.

  • Hoid's MO is to show up in the right place in the hour of greatest need with helpful information. That's exactly what the Sovereign did.
  • Hoid would already have the kind of knowledge that allows him to quickly devise a solution to the Southerners' problem.
  • Hoid doesn't particularly like being worshiped. So instead of going as himself, he would likely disguise himself as someone else. He already knew what Kelsier looked like, having met him on multiple occasions, and Kelsier had already established himself as an object of worship, so it seems an obvious choice.
  • Hoid would already have full allomantic abilities (from the bead of Lerasium he took) and he could have gained feruchemical abilities from spikes stored in the Lord Ruler's palace. That would only take 16 spikes (as opposed to the 32 that Kelsier would need in a new body). And Hoid would be able to use the spikes one at a time without killing himself, to avoid detection by Harmony.
  • Hoid would have a legitimate reason to create the BoM and then leave it unattended. He doesn't want to stay on Scadrial forever, and you apparently can't leave when you're heavily invested. He probably needed a way to leave his power there, but with the option of taking it up again when he returned.
  • The book notes that seeing the long and narrow stone bunker-like buildings inhabited by the Southerners sparked a fleeting memory from "long ago" in the mind of the Sovereign. This doesn't seem to be a reference to Kelsier. "Long ago" for Kelsier would be Luthadel, and I can't think of anything in Luthadel with that architecture. It seems more likely that the bunkers reminded Hoid of something he'd seen off-world. (Like a Rosharan stormshelter)

Finally, if Hoid wasn't the Sovereign, what was he doing on Scadrial? He obviously had some purpose there, and I doubt just gave up and went home after failing to talk to Vin.

Edited by Sir Anthony
change "BoM" to Bands of Mourning on first use
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I could maybe see this being the case, though I believe Brandon has said that Hoid wouldn’t want a spike because it’d put him under another Shard’s influence. Still not total control, but influence. (It would also enable Harmony to hear his thoughts, which I doubt Hoid would like.)

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1 hour ago, Sir Anthony said:

And it's unlikely Kelsier picked up this knowledge during his short tenure as Preservation.

And why would that be? He Ascended to the whole Shard, not a fraction like Rashek. And he was the Vessel for days, even weeks (honestly I don't remember exactly).

1 hour ago, Sir Anthony said:

Technology that the Southerners couldn't even come close to duplicating in 300 years?

They know the technology. The Bands are actually simpler technologically than medallions with multiple powers. The difficulty here is with having someone with all the powers to create it.

1 hour ago, Sir Anthony said:

How did Kelsier know that the Southerners needed help, or that they even existed in the first place?

Ascension. He notes there are people in the South. IIRC even Vin noticed it during her Ascension.

1 hour ago, Sir Anthony said:

Even Harmony seems to have overlooked them to some extent.

That *is* weird and I want to know why the hell Harmony did not do anything for them even though he created paradise for North,

1 hour ago, Sir Anthony said:

Why would Kelsier create and then abandon the BoM, an object that could, in the wrong hands, enable a new Lord Ruler?

There are mutliple theories on that. My own is that he posed the challenge to South and spread the rumours in North to get them both to meet and exchange technology. Why? Well, he learned about other worlds, even met with aggressors from one of them that had technology enabling them to take a Shard of Adonalsium. He knows The Lord Ruler froze progress for a thousand years, so he might be afraid Scadrial is lagging in the arms race. Hence, get the South and North to meet, and also leave behind the Spearhead so that if need be they can create Fullborn soldiers.

I guess he knew Sazed would keep an eye on this so that it would not fall into wrong hands and yes he did: after all, Harmony's Sword was there.

1 hour ago, Sir Anthony said:

Why would Kelsier create that particular coin coppermind?

My guess is copper Compounding. If it's a coin: it's a neat thing to have money that doubles as metalminds. And this one is the memory of how their people were saved, and reinforces his status as their savior.

1 hour ago, Sir Anthony said:

And how did Hoid end up in possession of it? Those two aren't exactly on the best of terms.

How on earth did Hoid end up in possession of something someone did not want him to have?

Thousands years of experience.

Quote

Viridian

Why did Hoid give the memory coin to Wax? What was his intention?

Brandon Sanderson

He thought that certain information was being kept, and certain lies were being perpetuated. And Hoid was a fan of that information being out.

Viridian

I'm still suspicious.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, you should be suspicious of Hoid's motive. He and Kelsier do not get along. Let's just say... Kelsier did not want that information to get out.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

 

Anyways, if you add everything up, Sovereign cannot be anybody but Kelsier, unless Brandon is pulling a one on us bigger than that whole "man who calls himself Taln" thing. I doubt he'd do that,

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Lots of good points in that reply Oversleep. But I still can't fathom why K would have created that coin. If, as Brandon said, the coin contained information K didn't want getting out, why wouldn't K just keep that in his own head, or at least on a keyed copper mind? Why store it on something that anyone could access? It seems more likely that H created the coin, making it show precisely the memory he wanted wax to see. Perhaps H hacked into a different copper mind and stole the memory? Is that even possible?

 

Here's more context on the long, narrow bunkers the sovereign remembered. Seems an odd detail for Sanderson to randomly include. And I don't think Sanderson would describe a https://coppermind.net/wiki/Stormshelter by accident and then highlight it for no reason. 

 

Edited by Sir Anthony
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14 hours ago, Sir Anthony said:

Perhaps H hacked into a different copper mind and stole the memory? Is that even possible?

Probably not, but it also depends on how F-aluminum works. AFAIK we're unsure whether an aluminummind can be tapped. But even if it can, that would require Kelsier to make an unkeyed aluminummind to allow other Feruchemists to access his private metalminds, which hits the same question of how Hoid would've gotten that. So it's easier to say that Kelsier made an unkeyed coppermind that Hoid took. But that still does not explain why.

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18 hours ago, Sir Anthony said:

Here's more context on the long, narrow bunkers the sovereign remembered. Seems an odd detail for Sanderson to randomly include. And I don't think Sanderson would describe a https://coppermind.net/wiki/Stormshelter by accident and then highlight it for no reason. 

When I read it, I thought that it was referring to ancient Terris architecture, specifically Rashek's hut in Credig Shaw which had personal significance to Kelsier. The Southerners have ties to the ancient Terris people as they have Ferrings among them which is how they create the warmth medallions. So, it stands to reason they might have some architecture that resembles ancient Terris buildings as well. I don't think we'll know for certain why the architecture was familar to the person who put the memory in the coin without asking Brandon, assuming it doesn't somehow get answered in TLM. 

Though, there's another possibility that just occurred to me. Ostensibly, Hoid would have had to retrieve and replace the memory in the coin before giving it to Wax to make sure it had what he wanted Wax to see. What if the buildings were familiar to Hoid and somehow that got tied to the memory before putting it back in the coin? Given that copperminds that can be shared can now be common, it begs the question of whether someone can change/tamper with other peoples' memories before storing them again. 

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20 hours ago, Sir Anthony said:

Lots of good points in that reply Oversleep. But I still can't fathom why K would have created that coin. If, as Brandon said, the coin contained information K didn't want getting out, why wouldn't K just keep that in his own head, or at least on a keyed copper mind? Why store it on something that anyone could access? It seems more likely that H created the coin, making it show precisely the memory he wanted wax to see. Perhaps H hacked into a different copper mind and stole the memory? Is that even possible?

 

Here's more context on the long, narrow bunkers the sovereign remembered. Seems an odd detail for Sanderson to randomly include. And I don't think Sanderson would describe a https://coppermind.net/wiki/Stormshelter by accident and then highlight it for no reason. 

 

It’s actually a reference to Kelsier seeing the Skaa hovels at the beginning of TFE.

But it’s pretty clear this is Kelsier:

Questioner

At the end of the last Wax and Wayne book, which I love, that statue that they though was the Lord Ruler. It was Kelsier.

Brandon Sanderson

That was Kelsier.

Questioner

Ok. I thought so, because the way the other thing ended with the eye, the eye thing was throwing me off and then I went and grabbed the secret thing and I was like "No that can't..."

Brandon Sanderson

That is Kelsier.

Questioner

And will we find out more in the next Wax and Wayne book or do we need to wait and find out more later?

Brandon Sanderson

You will find out more in the Wax and Wayne book, really that that's going on there is foreshadowing for era 3, and for future Secret History stories if I do them. So the Wax and Wayne books are not about the return of Kelsier, but the return of Kelsier is very important for later things in the series.
 

Then there’s this, about the spike:

Questioner

In Bands of Mourning, we learned that the Sovereign, who they confused as being the Lord Ruler, came after the Catacendre. [He] was their god, was their king and god. And then Kelsier looking for a string. Is the spike somehow connecting Kelsier's soul to Spook's body.

Brandon Sanderson

No, good question. It is connecting his soul with his body, his current body, but it is not Spook's body. That's a great theory.
 

So these two make it pretty clear that the Sovereign is Kelsier. Unless Brandon is straight up lying, that is.

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3 hours ago, Harrycrapper said:

The Southerners have ties to the ancient Terris people as they have Ferrings among them which is how they create the warmth medallions.

Source?

Even if they share lineage, I highly doubt that 1036 years after Rashek separated North and South with boiling oceans they still have similar architecture. Like, even if they were both descended from the same culture (which they are not, unless you have a source stating otherwise), they had pretty big geographical separation so there would be no reason for their archeticture to be similar.

Edited by Oversleep
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20 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Even if they share lineage

They have Feruchemy, so that's not an if. They do share common ancestry.

This is all mostly moot as Kingsdaughter cleared things up, however I typed it all up before that.

22 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

I highly doubt that 1036 years after Rashek separated North and South with boiling oceans they still have similar architecture. 

Architectural influences last thousands of years. Yes, a lot of things change over the years, but a lot of stuff sticks around too. Sometimes it's blatantly trying to emulate a culture's architecture from the past like a lot of the capitol buildings in Washington DC, other times subtle influences survive the millennia. It's as possible for Terris influences on something like this to survive that length of time as it for every shred of it to be forgotten because of calamity. You can doubt all you want, but it's possible and we have no facts pointing in either direction. 

 Also worth noting is that southern Scadrial is probably the only place you could find hints of ancient Terris architecture(aside from Rashek's hut obviously) as Rashek basically destroyed nearly every bit of culture of the Terris people in northern Scadrial. 

31 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Like, even if they were both descended from the same culture (which they are not, unless you have a source stating otherwise)

So Rashek who was, for lack of a better term, a Terris supremacist, altered the DNA of humanity to help them survive the deathworld he created and left a bunch of humans at the south pole with unmodified DNA in case he screwed up, didn't include a single member of his people? And those same people somehow have access to the magic system that only people descended from Terris have? 

Also, I'd like to address "which they are not, unless you have a source stating otherwise." I just kind of find it ironic you said that absent a source corroborating your position or even any reasoning. I get that you don't think southern Scadrians don't have any Terris blood or any Terris influences, but you stated that as if it were a fact and then required I provided sources to the contrary. Which, I also get why you didn't provide any sources as there aren't any. There are no WoBs on this specifically that I can find. So given the facts we know(i.e. Southern Scadrians have Feruchemy and Feruchemy is hereditary) they have Terris ancestry. It's likely not a whole lot of Terris ancestry, but it's enough to make an entire medallion economy. 

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I don't buy the Terris architecture argument. Whatever Terris architecture survived the Lord Ruler's reign long enough for Kelsier to see it, Wax would have been at least as familiar with it as Kelsier. If anything survived, the surviving Terris would have undoubtedly incorporated it into their buildings in their New Terris city-within-a-city where Wax spent part of his childhood. And for Rashek's hut: it may have been stone, but I don't think it was long and narrow. But that's moot, because Wax also saw Rashek's hut while he was in the Kandra homeland.

Edited by Sir Anthony
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3 hours ago, Sir Anthony said:

I don't buy the Terris architecture argument. Whatever Terris architecture survived the Lord Ruler's reign long enough for Kelsier to see it, Wax would have been at least as familiar with it as Kelsier. If anything survived, the surviving Terris would have undoubtedly incorporated it into their buildings in their New Terris city-within-a-city where Wax spent part of his childhood. And for Rashek's hut: it may have been stone, but I don't think it was long and narrow. But that's moot, because Wax also saw Rashek's hut while he was in the Kandra homeland.

Considering the above WoB, the architecture doesn't really matter. it almost certainly wasn't stormshelters, and if it was, it's not because Hoid is the Sovereign.

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On 10/13/2021 at 9:09 AM, Sir Anthony said:

I don't buy the Terris architecture argument. Whatever Terris architecture survived the Lord Ruler's reign long enough for Kelsier to see it, Wax would have been at least as familiar with it as Kelsier. If anything survived, the surviving Terris would have undoubtedly incorporated it into their buildings in their New Terris city-within-a-city where Wax spent part of his childhood. And for Rashek's hut: it may have been stone, but I don't think it was long and narrow. But that's moot, because Wax also saw Rashek's hut while he was in the Kandra homeland.

The Terris architecture bit was just my first thought when I read it, Kingsdaughter provided a WoB where Brandon clarifies that it was the Ska huts from the prologue of the first Mistborn book. But, I stand by the fact that at least some Southern Scadrians are descended from Terris people as that's the only way they should have access to Feruchemy. 

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On 13.10.2021 at 1:04 AM, Harrycrapper said:

They have Feruchemy

You still haven't sourced it up.

All people on Scadrial have seeds of Metallic Arts in them; however, without additional factors they don't emerge. Just like introducing lerasium to bloodlines to create nobles (without that you need mistsnappings that specifically add Investiture, otherwise Mistings are extremely rare) or whatever happened to Terris so they have Feruchemy.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243-hero-of-ages-qa-time-wasters-guide/#e6148

On 13.10.2021 at 1:04 AM, Harrycrapper said:

They do share common ancestry

That is your theory, not a fact.

On 13.10.2021 at 1:04 AM, Harrycrapper said:

So Rashek who was, for lack of a better term, a Terris supremacist, altered the DNA of humanity to help them survive the deathworld he created and left a bunch of humans at the south pole with unmodified DNA in case he screwed up, didn't include a single member of his people?

Exactly. He specifically genocided his own people twice because he was afraid of Feruchemy. First by turning all Feruchemists alive into mistwraiths, then when he realized there are dormant genes for it in the surviving rest of population he created breeding programs for them to get rid of Feruchemy.

On 13.10.2021 at 1:04 AM, Harrycrapper said:

So given the facts we know(i.e. Southern Scadrians have Feruchemy

We know that Kelsier brought them technology to use Metallic Arts. As of right now we have no knowledge of South having had Feruchemists.

Edited by Oversleep
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7 hours ago, Oversleep said:

You still haven't sourced it up.

Medallions require that someone with the respective power contribute towards making the medallion. We're still missing some key information on how those are created, but Allik specifically said that Kelsier only gave them F-Warmth and they reverse engineered the rest on their own over the years. After Wax asks why they don't just wear multiple medallions, Allik says that won't work, they interfere with each other. Allik then says to make a medallion with multiple powers, you'd need to have them instead of just adding yours and passing it to the next person to add theirs. We may not know what the excisors are or what they do, but we know it takes a live Feruchemist to make a medallion. They have Feruchemy. I don't have a digital copy of BoM, if you need confirmation of this, read chapter 21, specifically the portion where Wax questions Allik. 

8 hours ago, Oversleep said:

All people on Scadrial have seeds of Metallic Arts in them; however, without additional factors they don't emerge. Just like introducing lerasium to bloodlines to create nobles (without that you need mistsnappings that specifically add Investiture, otherwise Mistings are extremely rare) or whatever happened to Terris so they have Feruchemy.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243-hero-of-ages-qa-time-wasters-guide/#e6148

The Terris were given Feruchemy as a gift from Preservation and/or Ruin:

Quote

teknopathetic

I have a Reddit PM WOB that says the Terris were given Feruchemy as a gift, and that Brandon may get into how that occurred at some point.

Brandon Sanderson

It was more of a gift than an accident, but I do plan to someday dig into it more.

General Reddit 2018 (April 30, 2018)

So unless Kelsier somehow figured out how to give people Feruchemy that can be passed down to their descendants like it does for Terris people, they're descended from Terris people. The only other established ways of obtaining Feruchemy outside of genetically inheriting it are Hemalurgy and Medallions. Medallions can't be made using other Medallions and Hemalurgy still requires that you take the power from a Feruchemist. 

Now, you can propose that Kelsier took a bunch of Terris people with the right SDNA to pass it on to children and they sowed their wild oats across Southern Scadrial, but I'm more inclined to believe that Rashek included some Terris people when he sectioned off the Southern Scadrians as a control group for his genetic experiment. 

10 hours ago, Oversleep said:

Exactly. He specifically genocided his own people twice because he was afraid of Feruchemy. First by turning all Feruchemists alive into mistwraiths, then when he realized there are dormant genes for it in the surviving rest of population he created breeding programs for them to get rid of Feruchemy.

Rashek was afraid of another Fullborn. Southern Scadrial does not have the ability to produce Mistborn, and can barely produce any Mistings due to the lack of Lerasium in their genetic heritage. Also, there's a boiling ocean separating the two continents that I don't think even a Fullborn could make it through. I don't think this would have been a factor. 

10 hours ago, Oversleep said:

We know that Kelsier brought them technology to use Metallic Arts. As of right now we have no knowledge of South having had Feruchemists.

I will concede that it is possible for them to not have Terris ancestry. Maybe Kelsier figured out where a bit of Lerasium was and somehow used it in conjunction with some of Marsh's Atium to make some Ferrings(they don't have Full Feruchemists, otherwise they would have been able to make Medallions with more powers). However, without a doubt they do have Feruchemy, nothing about the Medallions makes sense if they don't have live Feruchemists. 

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5 hours ago, Harrycrapper said:

So unless Kelsier somehow figured out how to give people Feruchemy that can be passed down to their descendants like it does for Terris people, they're descended from Terris people.

That assumes the gift was only given once.

And how would the Terris have gotten there? It's another Continent, on the other side of the planet.

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6 hours ago, Frustration said:

That assumes the gift was only given once.

And how would the Terris have gotten there? It's another Continent, on the other side of the planet.

Probably Rashek moved them with his Ascension powers

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1 hour ago, Bearer of Agonies said:

Probably Rashek moved them with his Ascension powers

If he was going to do that, why not move all the Terris there, he quite clearly did not want Allomancy and Feruchemy to mix, so why spend time enslaving his own people if he knew he could just move them?

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2 hours ago, Frustration said:

If he was going to do that, why not move all the Terris there, he quite clearly did not want Allomancy and Feruchemy to mix, so why spend time enslaving his own people if he knew he could just move them?

Because he already thought that turning existing Feruchemists into kandra would be enough to destroy feruchemy, and did not realize that the sDNA survived in all Terris people. He did not intend to enslave them until after Feruchemists began appearing again. And once he realized that feruchemy still survived, he no longer held the power of Ascension.

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2 minutes ago, Bearer of Agonies said:

Because he already thought that turning existing Feruchemists into kandra would be enough to destroy feruchemy, and did not realize that the sDNA survived in all Terris people. He did not intend to enslave them until after Feruchemists began appearing again. And once he realized that feruchemy still survived, he no longer held the power of Ascension.

So why move some of the Terris at all?

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1 minute ago, Frustration said:

So why move some of the Terris at all?

For the same reason he moved everyone else: to create a control group. Especially during Ascension, Rashek still cared about the Terris people, so could have included some in both the Final Empire and the unaltered south to ensure they survive. 

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On 10/11/2021 at 5:35 PM, Sir Anthony said:

My own theory is that Hoid was the Sovereign. Here are my reasons for thinking this.

I most certainly am not Hoid...

giphy.gif

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