LewsTherinTelescope

theory
Is "Physical Adhesion" even a thing?

67 posts in this topic

On 10/31/2021 at 8:26 AM, Frustration said:

There are no outsiders in Shinovar, Vistim heavily implied to be the one they trust the most, isn't even allowed to see their farmland, all trading is done far from any cities.

People outside of Shinovar would have no idea, as they would be unable to see anything, and no one is actively observing the Shin anyway.

Your right that outsiders are not allowed on Farms for religious reasons, but there is no indication and indeed indications that outsiders regularly trade inside Shinovar. One other fact of note is that anyone training with the Honor Blades is of only the very lowest caste of the society and are little more than slaves. Only truthless are lower and they are exiled so are no longer part of Shin society. So another reason why any use of the honor blades would be covert even in Shinovar. You could even say that using Honor blades robs the user of all but a tiny fraction of their honor. So who better to have an honor blade than a Truthless.

Only farms seem to be restricted to outsiders the rest seems open to anyone. As for trading it is done away from farms but not cities necessarily.

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28 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Your right that outsiders are not allowed on Farms for religious reasons, but there is no indication and indeed indications that outsiders regularly trade inside Shinovar. One other fact of note is that anyone training with the Honor Blades is of only the very lowest caste of the society and are little more than slaves. Only truthless are lower and they are exiled so are no longer part of Shin society. So another reason why any use of the honor blades would be covert even in Shinovar. You could even say that using Honor blades robs the user of all but a tiny fraction of their honor. So who better to have an honor blade than a Truthless.

Not quite, Truthless are not given Honorblades, Szeth had one before becoming Truthless, so he kept his but he is the exception.

Szeth's father was a shepherd before being given his Honorblade, not a soldier, so he was at least decently respected in society.

33 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Only farms seem to be restricted to outsiders the rest seems open to anyone. As for trading it is done away from farms but not cities necessarily.

Vistim has never seen a city either, and if Farmers are the most important, others would want to be close. Especially since they own the soldiers. Cities would be near farmland.

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On 2021-10-31 at 2:42 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Are you bleeping kidding me... why does it not ask for confirmation before accidentally reloading like most sites do when you've typed something... AAAA

Ouch, that sucks.

I know it saves a draft of what you were writing on mobile, but I assume not on desktop then?

(Very convenient if, like me, you don't have the energy to write your entire post in one go.)

On 2021-10-31 at 2:42 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

@Inquisitor #5I'll respond to a few points I can rewrite quickly now, but a longer and more in-depth response is gonna probably need to wait til morning because I'm too tired to redo it all, lol.

That is some dedication there.

On 2021-10-31 at 2:42 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I agree with the first half, dunno on the second. I think it's more likely that when cultures have very similar ideas, they grow connected (used in a mundane way here, but probably tied to capital-C anyway tbh) in the Spiritual and Cognitive Realms, and so when the magic system taps into the concept, it taps into the broader one (directly or indirectly, idk) and this leads to parallels

Fair, fair.

I definitely don't think it has to be Shardic in nature, but I don't think if it would be that strange if it was.

On 2021-10-31 at 2:42 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

A lot of them do seem tied to the Essences (Reachers are made of metal, inkspren look like oil, peakspren are made of stone, etc), but yeah some like the Cryptics aren't super clear-cut.

Heh, I hadn't noticed that. 

I think I was too focused on what idea they are to even start considering that.

On 2021-10-31 at 2:42 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I think that even under my interpretation, you could make a similar argument, that rather than being one pure Surge, they're kind of a more complicated thing that nonetheless are very close to the pure Surges (honorspren aren't just an embodiment of Gravitation, they're the idea of attraction and kind of revolving around something, along with the idea of sticking together and being bound, filtered through Honor's lens of duty and nobility, and filtered through Cultivation's lens of nurturing and life, hence the Radiant Ideals being tied to protection and the spren tending to be attracted to natural leaders and those who form strong interpersonal bonds).

Sounds fair.

On 2021-10-31 at 2:42 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

He did, but that makes sense to me, considering the spren are significantly of him and it tends to be fueled by his Light. Lots of involvement from Honor's Investiture for him to intervene via, even if it's not directly "his". And once he started going mad, the rules started falling away, going off what SF says about Melishi, so it seems to in some ways have been more an active process.

Fair enough.

Makes me wonder if the restrictions against microkinesis have a: fallen away, and b: restricted the Fused as well.

Of course, if you subscribe to the idea that the reason for BAM's new powers was Honor's restrictions falling away things get more complicated.

Then again, Honor imposing rules on something wouldn't be that weird, even if Raboniel is wrong about Surges being of Honor and Cultivation.

And if Voidbinding is the manipulation of the same underlying Surges in a different way, it makes sense if messing with the Surge would mess with both Surge- and Voidbinding.

On 2021-10-31 at 2:42 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

In this case, I'm referring to burning metals in Allomancy, drawing Aons in AonDor, and.... who even knows for Surgebinding......... it feels a lot more direct in the latter.

Heh, it's interesting to see your own blind spots. I love magic mechanics and I'd totally missed that.

Surgebinding really seems to be missing a step there...

Allomancy has power source, key and output.

As does AonDor.

But Surgebinding seems to be all power source and output.

In addition, Surgebinders/Radiants seem able to do several... weird things, like being able to move Light around without having to use it for a power.

It's not like an allomancer can just infuse an object with mist.

Surgebinders can also reclaim Light from their... err... Surgebindings? And sure, Awakeners can also reclaim their Investiture, but that one is not known to evaporate as easily as Stormlight.

That's also an interesting thing, the Light stays as Light. What I mean is that Windrunner Lashings infuse things with Light, Lightweaver illusions are made of Light, etc. While all of (standard) allomancy is the power of Preservation, it's not like it manifests nebulous mist tendrils or anything, the power manifests as discrete abilities, while Surgebinding basically seems to chuck almost raw Investiture at the problem until it does what they want.

Makes me wonder how Investiture efficient Radiants are. I'd hazard not very, but on Roshar that's not much of a problem.

It's also funny to see how Surgebinding looks so raw and untamed next to allomancy, which I think is based on a cosmere fundamental. Also that Surgebinding seems so primal when it's heavily associated with Mr Rules himself.

On 2021-10-31 at 2:42 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

In this case, the rough idea for the mechanisms (which I have not fully defined in-depth, just to get the idea across) would be fabrials -> spren in the PR using the power on their own (sometimes triggered by metal), Surgebinding -> a physical being using the power via a bond, Voidbinding -> ?????? (perhaps a spren using the power anchored via a bond or something). Lot more fundamental than something more abstracted away like Allomancy.

Hmm

I think Surgebinding is broader than that, both luckspren messing with gravity (which is possibly due to a bond, I'll grant) and windspren sticking things together I think go there.

But yes, a lot more primal.

On 2021-10-31 at 2:42 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I.... sooooooorta agree, sort of don't. I view it less as an Honor thing and more a fundamental function of Connection and Investment at the heart of most magics. I agree fuel source certainly doesn't seem to define the magic, though.

Yeah, the more I think about it, the less I like it. If the bond worked like that Stormlight shouldn't be incomplete to the Sibling, I think.

I don't think it's entirely a coincidence that Honor ended up on the planet where bonds are a daily thing, but that doesn't mean that the mechanism of the bonds belongs to him.

Seeing as we know that Investiture across the cosmere got assigned to the Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered, I guess some of the Vessels might have naturally gravitated to places that "belonged" to them. I also assume that the singers (and probably local fauna in general) have always been able to bond spren, that they were made that way by Adonalsium, it seems too fundamental to them to me to be otherwise.

The Radiant bond is probably a derivation of the general Rosharan Nahel bond, a product of Connection. Non voidspren exist on the spectrum between Honor and Cultivation. Almost any Radiant could probably be fueled by Lifelight as well as Stormlight, as the nature of the spren is both, though just as the listener farming method, some might be more compatible with one flavour of Light than the other.

(Might also make the Bondsmiths more interchangable, historically at least, if they can all power Radiants and not just the one that provides Stormlight.)

On the other side of things Voidlight can probably not be used for the farming trick, not without Enlightened lifespren and a different Rhythm, as the normal spren of Roshar have no Connection to Odium.

If the Radiant bond and Nahel bond are also using the same mechanism, that also explains Venli being able to use Voidlight for her Surgebinding, in a "you got your Connection in my Connection" kinda way. As long as there is a (strong enough?) Connection to a Shard, their Investiture can be used as fuel, so the Radiant bond seemingly doesn't facilitate the use of particular Investiture.

If you bonded a hypothetical Scadrian mistspren (heh) you wouldn't be Connected to Honor or Cultivation, so you couldn't use the Rosharan Lights, but you could probably use Scadrian mist.

Conjecturally this also means that Enlightened Radiant can use all three pure Lights, assuming that the Enlightened spren's Connection hasn't been too messed up by the process.

Well, that got long, hopefully I didn't lose any important thoughts along the way.

On 2021-10-31 at 2:42 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Yeah, this is why I don't love using the power-based definitions, though in-world I do expect they'll probably delineate it that way and I've resigned myself to that.

Yeah, it can't all be in the power.

Thinking about it, I think it has to be a combination of multiple things.

The essence of allomancy is Preservation, for instance. That has to be part of it, I think.

But allomancy is accessing the power of Preservation, through metals, as discrete powers. Or something like that. Atium confuses things. Also possibly hemalurgy.

And here the fact that Surgebinding seems to be missing a step really makes it harder to find a good definition.

The easy definition would be something like: wielding the Rosharan concept of the fundamental forces, through the lens of Honor and Cultivation. But I don't think I can confidently stand by that and it makes Fused Surgebinding a separate system...

This just in, Surgebinding is hecka weird.

On 2021-10-31 at 2:42 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

There's not really a neat way to do it—if Hemalurgy is the power, is taking memories from Breath Hemalurgy? If Hemalurgy is stabbing with metal to remove Investiture, is raysium Hemalurgy? If Hemalurgy is granting power via an Invested spike, could stabbing someone with an unkeyed metalmind possibly perform Hemalurgy (if this would indeed work, which is uncertain, but Brandon has said putting Invested metal in people often does weird things in general)?

Hemalurgy I think might be fairly simple: the theft of an attribute, through metal piercing the body in specific places, done by Intent and facilitated by the power of Ruin, and the granting of that same attribute to another by piercing their body in specific places with that same metal.

And the fact that that is a simple definition might be saying something...

On 2021-10-31 at 2:42 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

If we say it's the Shard, are Aviar sand masters? If we say it's only the combination specific combination, alright, but then is Compounding its own magic system? Every rule has counterintuitive results.

Yeah, it simply can't be by one blanket thing.

Ah well.

On 2021-10-31 at 2:42 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

May not always be straight up violence, but probably a fierceness, at least. Something more Odious, more emotional, more active, more consuming, more aggressive. When you're curious, you're eager and wonder. When you're craving, you want it, you need it, you will do anything to get it.

Ah, yeah, fair enough.

On 2021-10-31 at 2:42 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Agreed, or at least extremely similar. Especially with how Sja-anat compares her power to corrupt spren to Transformation... which is exactly what the Sibling says Raboniel is using to corrupt them.

Well, if it walks like a chicken and quacks like a chicken, it's possibly an Aviar.

Until proven otherwise, I think categorising them as the same thing makes sense.

 

¤_¤

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22 hours ago, Frustration said:

Not quite, Truthless are not given Honorblades, Szeth had one before becoming Truthless, so he kept his but he is the exception.

Szeth's father was a shepherd before being given his Honorblade, not a soldier, so he was at least decently respected in society.

I didn't say they gave it to him because he was truthless. They possibly let him keep it because he was. The fact that he had it already meant he was already of the lowest caste in Shin.

22 hours ago, Frustration said:

Vistim has never seen a city either, and if Farmers are the most important, others would want to be close. Especially since they own the soldiers. Cities would be near farmland.

I don't recall where it has ever said Vistim has never seen their cities, of course if the cities are surrounded by farms visiting them would be difficult. However cities don't need to be near farmlands, in fact having a city near farmland could be detrimental to the farmland. Small towns, villages, hamlets would likely have nearby farms, but cities, that seems questionable. Of course Shin may not have any cities at all.

Given that farms are sacred there would be no soldiers or warriors there and perhaps not even nearby. Sorry I don't accept the premise that they are so isolated that no one from outside has a clue about what goes on there, not if there are people like traders who travel there regularly. I saw nothing in the books to support that idea, and much that implies otherwise. Besides soldiers and weapons training is viewed by Shin as an embarrassment and dishonorable so would be kept very covert even from locals, so again only limited practice with what is known and now overt experimentation of what might be possible given that combat is the lowest most disgraceful profession in the land.

Why do you think Szeth is the exception? I don't get that impression at all. Oh and if Szeth's father had picked up the honor blade even once he would no longer be a shepherd so he never touched it, but Szeth did and so lost almost all respect, which might be why it was so easy to name him truthless. Picking up a weapon even once costs all status for life in Shin society.

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11 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

I didn't say they gave it to him because he was truthless. They possibly let him keep it because he was. The fact that he had it already meant he was already of the lowest caste in Shin.

I don't recall where it has ever said Vistim has never seen their cities, of course if the cities are surrounded by farms visiting them would be difficult. However cities don't need to be near farmlands, in fact having a city near farmland could be detrimental to the farmland. Small towns, villages, hamlets would likely have nearby farms, but cities, that seems questionable. Of course Shin may not have any cities at all.

Given that farms are sacred there would be no soldiers or warriors there and perhaps not even nearby. Sorry I don't accept the premise that they are so isolated that no one from outside has a clue about what goes on there, not if there are people like traders who travel there regularly. I saw nothing in the books to support that idea, and much that implies otherwise. Besides soldiers and weapons training is viewed by Shin as an embarrassment and dishonorable so would be kept very covert even from locals, so again only limited practice with what is known and now overt experimentation of what might be possible given that combat is the lowest most disgraceful profession in the land.

Why do you think Szeth is the exception? I don't get that impression at all. Oh and if Szeth's father had picked up the honor blade even once he would no longer be a shepherd so he never touched it, but Szeth did and so lost almost all respect, which might be why it was so easy to name him truthless. Picking up a weapon even once costs all status for life in Shin society.

You're making a lot of assumptions we don't know.

  1. If Soldiers aren't allowed near farmland, but farmers work the feilds, how do they do them any good?
  2. Vistim, is there once a year, Shin shun outsiders to an enourmous degree, and are even capable of entire isolation for over a year, they do not rely on trade, or even encourage it. A close real world example would be pre-Opium war China, closed off except for a few cities, and barely trading at all.
  3. Szeth is not an exception, the weilders of the Honorblades are chosen, it doesn't happen at random, and are kept close by the Stone Shamans.
Edited by Frustration
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20 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I know it saves a draft of what you were writing on mobile, but I assume not on desktop then?

It does, but this often bugs out if you visit another page on the forums while writing (even if it's in an entire other tab). 

20 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I definitely don't think it has to be Shardic in nature, but I don't think if it would be that strange if it was.

Yeah that's fair, it just makes sense to me with the "Shards are just supercharged spren" idea Brandon keeps talking about for most of the concepts to apply on a more fundamental level. But I could see it being Shardic too. 

20 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Makes me wonder if the restrictions against microkinesis have a: fallen away

Definitely curious about this too. After all, most of the Stonewards aren't likely to be experimenting in ways that would trigger a reaction, so Khriss's knowledge on the restrictions might be from old documents or witnesses or something (probably wherever she found out about the Lashings during the WoK times). 

20 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

and b: restricted the Fused as well.

Hmmm, good question. My gut reaction is no, because of how tiny a level the Deepest Ones must be working on, but if the restrictions prevent breaking the bonds but not manipulation of them, it's possible. 

20 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Of course, if you subscribe to the idea that the reason for BAM's new powers was Honor's restrictions falling away things get more complicated.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. That's very possible. I go back and forth on what I think is going on there honestly, but that definitely sounds plausible to me. In which case, a.) might mean Honor restricted it overall, b.) might mean Honor had a strong enough tie to BAM to influence her in some ways (could be related to why her capture cut the tones off for the Sibling), or c.) might have had to do with some sort of backdoor via Connection to something he has Connection to or something. 

20 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Allomancy has power source, key and output.

As does AonDor.

But Surgebinding seems to be all power source and output.

Yeah, it's interesting. 

20 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

That's also an interesting thing, the Light stays as Light. What I mean is that Windrunner Lashings infuse things with Light, Lightweaver illusions are made of Light, etc. While all of (standard) allomancy is the power of Preservation, it's not like it manifests nebulous mist tendrils or anything, the power manifests as discrete abilities, while Surgebinding basically seems to chuck almost raw Investiture at the problem until it does what they want.

Huh, didn't think about that. Yeah, that's interesting. 

Though, Marasi DOES leak mist when using the Bands, so perhaps it's just a matter of the amounts in Allomancy being incredibly small compared to the amounts in Surgebinding, so it's less noticeable. (After all, as highly Invested as the Bands are, they aren't even Invested enough to be considered a Shardblade. Radiant spren seem to be pretty big compared to the amount of Investiture in other Invested Art access methods, though obviously they aren't fully Invested into the Radiant, at least at first.)

21 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I think Surgebinding is broader than that, both luckspren messing with gravity (which is possibly due to a bond, I'll grant) and windspren sticking things together I think go there.

Under the way I think about it, that would go under the magic system that "includes fabrials", as Brandon put it (or something close to that, looking WoBs up on mobile is a pain if I don't want to risk this post again, lol). Especially now that we've learned ancient fabrials are a spren manifesting, and going off Kaza's description of another mind reinforcing her will (again, can't look up wording atm), it sounds to me more like a spren directly acting.

(This DOES lead to the implication that Kaladin commanding the windspren to do things is a different magic system accessed in a similar but distinct way from Surgebinding, which probably is something you'd disagree with lol.)

But as mentioned, not really a great way out there to separate things cleanly, so your way works too. 

21 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

The essence of allomancy is Preservation, for instance. That has to be part of it, I think.

Ah, but there's some "fun" WoBs where Brandon says that those categorizations are partially cultural, and that he would actually disagree with ex. the idea Feruchemy is a balance (he believes it leans more towards Preservation, though canonically it's up for debate), so even that isn't necessarily solid.... AAaaaaaaaaaaaaa

21 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

And the fact that that is a simple definition might be saying something...

Lmao yeah. Ultimately all of these are constructs for discussion's sake and they're gonna be a bit fuzzy for the sake of convenience. 

21 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Well, if it walks like a chicken and quacks like a chicken, it's possibly an Aviar.

:lol:

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On 10/9/2021 at 9:07 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Imo, yes. If the bond is a similar level of depth (and I think it'd be odd if it wasn't, though this is just gut feeling on my part), then it will probably involve significantly more Investiture simply because the spren has significantly more Investiture. Plus, Bondsmiths can do crazy things like create Light, and Dalinar can open a whole Perpendicularity. Combine that with the in general far more expansive access to the powers (which, as we see with the Bands, is something higher levels of Investiture can cause in at least some cases), and I think it's reasonable.

On 10/9/2021 at 5:19 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Perhaps it's similar to how normally Allomancers can only Push and Pull on metal, but if you chuck enough Investiture into the spiritweb via something like the Bands of Mourning, you reach the point you can see and nearly interact with the souls of objects and people, like Marasi and Wax mention? A Bondsmith spren probably has enough Investiture that when it starts to enter your spiritweb, it pushes the limits of what's possible pretty far compared to a normal sapient spren.

Even if Bondsmith's are more invested per oath, which Is actually backed up by the fused's comments that Dalinar's abilities may have functioned in Urithiru during the take over, they don't have more investiture at their disposal at once than another radiant. The stormlight is the investiture they use to fuel their magic, unlike in allomancy where the metal is just hte key to the investiture, and they have limits to how much they can hold at once, so bondsmiths would be limited as well. Also, not all bondsmiths can create light, so far we only know that the sibling bondsmith can. So bonsmith's abilities can't just override limits based purely on a hgiher use of investiture.

 

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On 2021-11-02 at 5:10 PM, BenduLuke said:

indeed indications that outsiders regularly trade inside Shinovar.

You are right that others come seeking trade:

Quote

"The others who visit us," Thresh noted, walking to the wagon. "All they seem to care about are horses. Everyone wishes to buy horses."

-WoK, interlude I-4

However, this tells us nothing about how many these others are.

We do possibly get something of a hint earlier in the same interlude however:

Quote

She did wish he wouldn't spend so much time traveling to such odd places. He was known as a great merchant, and she'd assumed that great merchants would be the ones visiting exotic cities and ports. Not ones who traveled to empty meadows in backward countries.

-WoK, interlude I-4

This tells us that this is not a major trade route, or even one that an apprentice merchant was really aware of, which I'd argue would be in her interest to have educated herself about.

The fact that the trade takes place in a meadow is, to me, also indicative of how little outsiders are trusted. You'd expect trade to happen at a market or port, not a meadow where there's not much of anything.

The same interlude also mentions farming villages, and that outsiders aren't allowed there, but you'd think that a trading post of some sort might exist outside the view of any farms.

The fact that there isn't trading infrastructure would seem to imply that either they don't really trade, or they don't want to trade.

On 2021-11-02 at 5:10 PM, BenduLuke said:

Only farms seem to be restricted to outsiders the rest seems open to anyone.

And yet Vstim trades in a meadow?

We also see over the course of the books that no-one really knows what the heck is happening in Shinovar, with the most knowledge known to be possessed by an outsider is Taravangian knowing the exact specification of an oathstone. They refuse the invitation to the coalition and basically seem content being Switzerland by way of isolationist Japan.

We also see that the caravan is not too far into Shinovar:

Quote

She sat back, looking up at the gemstone, watching to see if it grew brighter. The odd grass of the Shin lands waved in the wind, stubbornly refusing to withdraw, even at the strongest of gusts. In the distance rose the white peaks of the Misted Mountains, sheltering Shinovar. Those mountains caused the highstorms to break and fade, making Shinovar one of the only places in all of Roshar where highstorms did not reign.

-WoK, interlude I-4

On 2021-11-02 at 5:10 PM, BenduLuke said:

One other fact of note is that anyone training with the Honor Blades is of only the very lowest caste of the society and are little more than slaves.

 

On 2021-11-02 at 5:10 PM, BenduLuke said:

You could even say that using Honor blades robs the user of all but a tiny fraction of their honor.

 

On 2021-11-03 at 4:33 PM, BenduLuke said:

The fact that he had it already meant he was already of the lowest caste in Shin.

I'm not so sure this is true, while yes, we do get to know this:

Quote

"Shin are a curious folk," he said. "Here, warriors are the lowliest of men—kind of like slaves. Men trade and sell them between houses by way of little stones that signify ownership, and any man who picks up a weapon must join them and be treated the same. The fellow in the fancy robe? He's a farmer."

-WoK, interlude I-4

However, going by this:

Quote

"No," Vstim said, though he wasn't stern. He never seemed to be stern. "They are simply different, child. Odd people are those who act erratically. Thresh and his kind, they are anything but erratic. They may be a little too stable. The world is changing outside, but the Shin seem determined to remain the same. I've tried to offer them fabrials, but they find them worthless. Or unholy. Or too holy to use."

-WoK, interlude I-4

As well as Szeth calling Nale "Nin-son-God" might imply that there are different rules at play regarding the Honorblades.

And if you, like me, think the Stone shamanate are less than benevolent, it might simply be a case of different rules for different people, just like rich/famous people are often given more lenient sentences for crimes IRL.

Or it could be a little of both, the Honorblades being "holy" or "special" or somesuch and the Stone shamanate being corrupt or not held to the same standards as the rest of society.

There's also this WoB:

Quote

Questioner

He said, "I was reading through *inaudible* Szeth section he mentioned that 'we are all that remains'. Is he saying that the Shin are the lost Order? The one that didn't abandon the oaths? Of course the section *inaudible* alternatives-- *interrupted*

Brandon Sanderson

What they are doing is-- Szeth is saying, "We are all that remains that remembers what happened before." [...] And they may be-- they may not remember accurately. But they consider themselves the only ones who know. Does that make sense? [...] It is not reference to the Orders.

Words of Radiance Seattle signing (March 8, 2014)

The Shin see themselves as having a privileged reference frame, they think they know what happened, that might also play into having special rules for the Honorblades.

On 2021-11-03 at 4:33 PM, BenduLuke said:

Sorry I don't accept the premise that they are so isolated that no one from outside has a clue about what goes on there

I wish to highlight something from an earlier quote, "They may be a little too stable. The world is changing outside, but the Shin seem determined to remain the same."

They shun outside influences pretty hard I'd say. And I'd say that basically everything we see is that no-one really knows what's happening in Shinovar.

Quote

"And . . . when will they come?" Taravangian asked, hopeful. "I am looking forward to meeting the others. The king of Azir . . . didn't you tell me there was a new one, Adrotagia? I know Queen Fen—she's very nice. Will we be inviting the Shin? So mysterious. Do they even have a king? Don't they live in tribes or something? Like Marati barbarians?"

Quote

"Iri dismissed us almost outright," Dalinar said with a sigh. "Neither Marabethia nor Rira would respond to the initial request. There's no real government in the Reshi Isles or some of the middle states. Babatharnam's Most Ancient has been coy, and most of the Makabaki states imply that they're waiting for Azir to make a decision. The Shin sent only a quick reply to congratulate us, whatever that means."

- both Oathbringer, chapter 24

Quote

Questioner

*Inaudible question*

Brandon Sanderson

*Repeating* Why do the Shin look different to the Rosharan significant <face>?

Because the Shin have spent a long time being very xenophobic. They haven't intermixed very much. When the original event happened, that I'm not going to say because of spoilers, different people settled in different places, and the Shin in particular just have been very xenophobic.

Idaho Falls signing (July 21, 2018)

Quote

She continued shading the landscape colors at Dalinar's request. Marat and those around it went gold, as did—unfortunately—Alethkar. Lands that hadn't yet commited, like Shinovar and Tukar, she turned green.

-Oathbringer, chapter 122

They don't seem to communicate with outsiders unprompted, and even Taravangian doesn't seem to know much about them. In addition, Bandon describes them as xenophobic, at least historically, and there's not exactly much evidence that this isn't true in the present day.

On 2021-11-03 at 4:33 PM, BenduLuke said:

Oh and if Szeth's father had picked up the honor blade even once he would no longer be a shepherd so he never touched it

I think RoW explicitly contradicts that:

Quote

"Where," Szeth said to Ishar, his voice quiet, "did you get that Blade you bear?"

The Herald seemed not to have heard him. He was staring at Szeth's sword as it dripped black liquid smoke. Around it, the white light of the perpendicularity warped and was consumed, like water down a drain.

Szeth spun and stabbbed the sword into the heart of the perpendicularity. The Stormfather shouted in anger as the perpendicularity collapsed, folding in upon itself.

In a flash, the world was full of color again. All five Windrunners lay on the ground, but they were stirring. Ishar scrambled to his feet before Szeth—who stood with one arm wreathed in black tendrils, gripping the sword that dripped nightmares and bled destruction.

"Answer me!" Szeth screamed. "Did you kill the man who held that Blade before you?"

-RoW, chapter 111

Neturo held Ishar's Blade, it doesn't seem plausible that he did that without ever touching it. If nothing else, he'd presumably need to do that to bond it, and how could he ever have summoned it without touching it.

We also know that Szeth has trained with all the Surges, which would require the Bondsmith Blade, as the Stoneward Blade was unavailable. Did Neturo summon it without touching it and Szeth catch it in midair?

On 2021-11-02 at 5:10 PM, BenduLuke said:

Only truthless are lower and they are exiled so are no longer part of Shin society.

I don't think we can say that for certain, we only have one data point. Szeth isn't allowed in the Valley of Truth, IIRC, but unless that refers to all of Shinovar, Truthless need not be exiled.

On 2021-11-03 at 5:08 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

it just makes sense to me with the "Shards are just supercharged spren" idea Brandon keeps talking about for most of the concepts to apply on a more fundamental level.

Fair, fair. I suppose it could be both, in the same way that all Investiture belongs to a Shard, the ideas might be fundamental, but retroactively assigned to Shards.

On 2021-11-03 at 5:08 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

My gut reaction is no, because of how tiny a level the Deepest Ones must be working on, but if the restrictions prevent breaking the bonds but not manipulation of them, it's possible. 

And my gut feeling is yes. If the Fused are Surgebinding, it should affect them too. It would be really nice to see how much is different because they're singers (closer to the Rhythms), how much is different because they are Fused, how much is different because of compounded experience, how much is different because they align with Odium's Rhythms and how much is different because they seem to "live" their Surge (which may or may not be the same as being Fused.)

On 2021-11-03 at 5:08 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

In which case, a.) might mean Honor restricted it overall

IMO, this is the likeliest option.

On 2021-11-03 at 5:08 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

b.) might mean Honor had a strong enough tie to BAM to influence her in some ways (could be related to why her capture cut the tones off for the Sibling), or c.) might have had to do with some sort of backdoor via Connection to something he has Connection to or something.

I could see either of these being the case too, yeah.

On 2021-11-03 at 5:08 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Though, Marasi DOES leak mist when using the Bands, so perhaps it's just a matter of the amounts in Allomancy being incredibly small compared to the amounts in Surgebinding, so it's less noticeable.

Fair enough.

It still feels different somehow. I suppose it's the fact that she's leaking mist like a Radiant leaking Light, but it's not noticably going into her Push, for instance.

But yeah, for how ridiculous the Metallic Arts can get output-wise, they seem to use very little Investiture to do it all.

Now there's a thought, given how relatively inefficient Surgebinding seems, what with Radiants leaking Investiture as standard, what would happen if the Ghostbloods actually managed to export Light and were able to hack it into the Metallic Arts? That seems like a recipe for something quite spectacular. Or it just dissipates too fast to do much without recharging, though possibly quite the thing while you have it.

On 2021-11-03 at 5:08 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Radiant spren seem to be pretty big compared to the amount of Investiture in other Invested Art access methods, though obviously they aren't fully Invested into the Radiant, at least at first.

Yeah, they are probably WAY more Investiture than I realised.

On 2021-11-03 at 5:08 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Under the way I think about it, that would go under the magic system that "includes fabrials", as Brandon put it (or something close to that, looking WoBs up on mobile is a pain if I don't want to risk this post again, lol). Especially now that we've learned ancient fabrials are a spren manifesting, and going off Kaza's description of another mind reinforcing her will (again, can't look up wording atm), it sounds to me more like a spren directly acting.

I see.

I suppose that makes sense. I'm not one to talk as I think that singers are "naturials," basically. It could be that the interplay between the fauna and the spren in general can be classified as such. Though I of course think that it all originates in the Surges in the end.

On 2021-11-03 at 5:08 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

This DOES lead to the implication that Kaladin commanding the windspren to do things is a different magic system accessed in a similar but distinct way from Surgebinding, which probably is something you'd disagree with lol.

Hmm, nooo, I don't think I do, actually.

I've never given much thought to summoning Shardblades, but I don't think I've ever thought of it as Surgebinding. And if manifesting your spren as a physical object, then manifesting their cousin-spren also isn't.

Both are the same thing, but they are not Surgebinding.

The Radiant ability to infuse things with Light I'd also categorise as separate from Surgebinding.

I'd also not categorise moving Breath around (the standard "my Breath to yours") as Awakening or ingesting lerasium as allomancy.

The Radiant/spren interaction is (probably) a function of the Radiant bond and the main spren and Radiant "blending" together, but the "perks" of the tipping points are not Surgebinding.

I suppose my main disagreement would probably be calling it a magic system.

Oh! Then again, it could be a cheat!

If the fauna and spren are a manifestation of the same thing as fabrials, just one happening naturally and the other artificially, then it's possible that the Radiant bond, in the spectrum between tipping point three and four, allows for a bond of that nature to be leapfrogged to the Radiant.

Kaladin commanding windspren is somewhat similar to the situation with Rysn and the luckspren at the Reshi Isles.

I think this may be the same basic thing.

On 2021-11-03 at 5:08 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Ah, but there's some "fun" WoBs where Brandon says that those categorizations are partially cultural, and that he would actually disagree with ex. the idea Feruchemy is a balance (he believes it leans more towards Preservation, though canonically it's up for debate), so even that isn't necessarily solid....

Uh-huh...

I don't like this.

That feels like saying that physics can be debated. Like, if it exists it has rules. Just because we are at times mistaken about what the rules are, doesn't mean that they don't exist.

Anyway...

On 2021-11-03 at 5:08 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

AAaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Yes, I second this.

On 2021-11-03 at 5:08 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Lmao yeah. Ultimately all of these are constructs for discussion's sake and they're gonna be a bit fuzzy for the sake of convenience. 

Yeah, I suppose they are. In that case it's of course convenient if everyone agrees on the same definitions.

 

¤_¤

Edited by Inquisitor #5
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On 11/4/2021 at 0:32 PM, Inquisitor #5 said:

And yet Vstim trades in a meadow?

When I look at a map of Shinovar I don't see any ports or cities to trade in on the map unlike other locations in Roshar so trading in a Meadow since it is open space and wild seems reasonable.

On 11/4/2021 at 0:32 PM, Inquisitor #5 said:

the most knowledge known to be possessed by an outsider is Taravangian knowing the exact specification of an oathstone.

That implies that the information is available to one that takes an interest in Shinovar, but their best protection from that is to seem uninteresting. There are actually a number of items like metals that they want to trade for, but few take the time to learn what they are after and what might be best to trade for.

On 11/4/2021 at 0:32 PM, Inquisitor #5 said:

We also see that the caravan is not too far into Shinovar:

Of course trade is done on the edges since the interior is devoted to the farms and is restricted.

 

On 11/4/2021 at 0:32 PM, Inquisitor #5 said:

As well as Szeth calling Nale "Nin-son-God" might imply that there are different rules at play regarding the Honorblades.

And if you, like me, think the Stone shamanate are less than benevolent, it might simply be a case of different rules for different people, just like rich/famous people are often given more lenient sentences for crimes IRL.

Or it could be a little of both, the Honorblades being "holy" or "special" or somesuch and the Stone shamanate being corrupt or not held to the same standards as the rest of society.

I could potentially grant that, but the rule among them seems to be that People who pick up weapons are of the very lowest caste even if they only picked one up once.

 

On 11/4/2021 at 0:32 PM, Inquisitor #5 said:

I don't think we can say that for certain, we only have one data point. Szeth isn't allowed in the Valley of Truth, IIRC, but unless that refers to all of Shinovar, Truthless need not be exiled.

Coppermind says that Truthless are exiled from Shinovar and cursed to be a warrior to outsiders.

Held may not mean actually holding the blade, but instead having custody of the blade. I am not sure Szeth's Father was bonded to the blade just that it was in his custody or he stored it. Or you may be right that there are special rules for honor blades or it might be using a weapon not just picking it up is what takes you from whatever to warrior. Szeth trained with weapons and so was Warrior Caste regardless the rules.

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8 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

That implies that the information is available to one that takes an interest in Shinovar, but their best protection from that is to seem uninteresting. There are actually a number of items like metals that they want to trade for, but few take the time to learn what they are after and what might be best to trade for.

Taravangian has a Herald, it's impossible to tell how much of is information came from her, but we can't rule that out.

Even the Ghostbloods have a hard time keeping track of Honoblades and they have far more resources than anyone on Roshar.

9 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Of course trade is done on the edges since the interior is devoted to the farms and is restricted.

So how would anyone see use of the Honorblades?

12 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Coppermind says that Truthless are exiled from Shinovar and cursed to be a warrior to outsiders.

I can't find that passage, could you point it out?

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11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

When I look at a map of Shinovar I don't see any ports or cities to trade in on the map unlike other locations in Roshar so trading in a Meadow since it is open space and wild seems reasonable.

Is that more reasonable than a trading post?

If the Shin wanted to trade or tons of traders arrived, wouldn't they have trading infrastructure?

12 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

That implies that the information is available to one that takes an interest in Shinovar, but their best protection from that is to seem uninteresting.

As Frustration has noted, Taravangian has access to a Herald. He also managed to basically predict the future by sheer brainpower, so if he barely know anything, what does that say about the secrecy of the Shin?

12 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

There are actually a number of items like metals that they want to trade for, but few take the time to learn what they are after and what might be best to trade for.

I mean, China was fine with trading for silver while outsiders weren't allowed in.

The fact that they are willing to trade doesn't mean they seek out trade, but why look a gift horse in the mouth?

On 2021-11-02 at 5:10 PM, BenduLuke said:

Only farms seem to be restricted to outsiders the rest seems open to anyone.

 

12 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Of course trade is done on the edges since the interior is devoted to the farms and is restricted.

These two statements don't seem incongruous to you?

Only farms are restricted and most of Shinovar is farms.

If everything except the edges is restricted to outsiders, then those parts being open to anyone is fairly meaningless.

12 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I could potentially grant that, but the rule among them seems to be that People who pick up weapons are of the very lowest caste even if they only picked one up once.

Yes, that's what it seems like, but we also know so little of the Shin.

I'm sure they could have some fun loopholes, like that martial arts is fine, but weapons aren't.

We also know that Szeth thinks that the Stone shamans would retrieve his Blade once he died. Given that he's likely to die outside of Shinovar, it's a distinct possiblity that they'd have to walk on stone, which is forbidden. And given the value of Blades on Roshar, they would have to take the Blade from a potential Shardbearer, so they'd need something to give them an edge against a Shardblade (and potentially Plate), like their own Blade.

And Szeth seems certain that his Blade will be retrieved.

So the Stone shamans seem to be allowed to bend/break some of the rules already.

12 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Coppermind says that Truthless are exiled from Shinovar and cursed to be a warrior to outsiders.

Here are all the instances of "exile," "Shinovar" and "warrior" in the Truthless article:

Spoiler

Screenshot_20211106-094630_Chrome.thumb.jpg.af6f37e18c17d51682d63744bd39b26c.jpgScreenshot_20211106-094654_Chrome.thumb.jpg.c0d4ad289bd6970a4f56497bec3ba028.jpgScreenshot_20211106-094704_Chrome.thumb.jpg.4e5ff8c97c737d6e5a8788d0d2fabfdb.jpgScreenshot_20211106-094716_Chrome.thumb.jpg.da364a1c99db8272869eb324299fcfe2.jpgScreenshot_20211106-094728_Chrome.thumb.jpg.fd40e962bb01c1f1e16359d3fce92786.jpgScreenshot_20211106-094738_Chrome.thumb.jpg.769d75aff28ca14644ba7106eaab9bcd.jpgScreenshot_20211106-094806_Chrome.thumb.jpg.a696005dfae2b45d7e6a412b68337e57.jpg

I can't see the bit you mentioned.

In addition, as usual, a fan-wiki (or things like Wikipedia) is not 100% reliable, misunderstandings and misinterpretations easily get taken as fact.

(Compare the WoB database Arcanum, where there are usually links to, for instance, Reddit posts, so things can be read in their original context, or actual audio recordings, so you can hear Brandon talk.)

12 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Held may not mean actually holding the blade, but instead having custody of the blade.

In that case, that easily explains why no rumours of Surgebinding would have escaped Shinovar. If they can't touch the Blades, they can't bond them, and then they can't use Surgebinding.

12 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Or you may be right that there are special rules for honor blades or it might be using a weapon not just picking it up is what takes you from whatever to warrior.

Given how the Stone shamans seem to be able to break the rules, I'd say that's not improbable.

It's not unreasonable to me that politically important people, like the religious leadership, would have a different set of rules. Corruption is one heck of a drug.

12 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Szeth trained with weapons and so was Warrior Caste regardless the rules.

I can't recall him having weapons training outside of his Blade, do you have a quote on that?

 

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On 11/4/2021 at 1:32 PM, Inquisitor #5 said:

And my gut feeling is yes. If the Fused are Surgebinding, it should affect them too.

I'm just not really sure how much control Vessels truly have over the magics, even ones that are "theirs". For example, even on Scadrial, where the entire planet is of the Shards, Preservation had to resort to (Spiritual) genetic manipulation of the Mistings to """swap""" atium in for one of the sixteen, and Mistborn could still use the """removed""" metals just fine. So I feel that, if the Fused are accessing it via a method that is not made of Honor's power, he probably can't do much to affect it.

On 11/4/2021 at 1:32 PM, Inquisitor #5 said:

It would be really nice to see how much is different because they're singers (closer to the Rhythms), how much is different because they are Fused, how much is different because of compounded experience, how much is different because they align with Odium's Rhythms and how much is different because they seem to "live" their Surge (which may or may not be the same as being Fused.)

Yeah there's sooo many factors that could be at play here.

On 11/4/2021 at 1:32 PM, Inquisitor #5 said:

It still feels different somehow. I suppose it's the fact that she's leaking mist like a Radiant leaking Light, but it's not noticably going into her Push, for instance.

That's a good point, and I do agree. Just wanted to bring the alternative up, just in case.

On 11/4/2021 at 1:32 PM, Inquisitor #5 said:

Now there's a thought, given how relatively inefficient Surgebinding seems, what with Radiants leaking Investiture as standard, what would happen if the Ghostbloods actually managed to export Light and were able to hack it into the Metallic Arts? That seems like a recipe for something quite spectacular.

Oh god that is a terrifying thought. I'm of the opinion that, going off Venli being able to use VL for her Surgebinding without a notable difference, SL might very well be able to just "plug in" in the place of the mists if you work out a way to breathe it in, which would be pretty scary.

On 11/4/2021 at 1:32 PM, Inquisitor #5 said:

I'd also not categorise moving Breath around (the standard "my Breath to yours") as Awakening

I agree with most, but I'm actually not so sure on this one. If you define Awakening as essentially "taking a fragment of the Investiture that gives life and giving it to something else", then I think it's reasonable to speculate that giving Breath to someone is the same thing, just with the thing already having a mind and so not needing one provided. Heck, the Command even drains color for the transfer like the rest:

Quote

Chaos

Why does giving your Breath to another person not require color? Every other Command does.

Brandon Sanderson

I thought I answered this in the book. You use your own color. :)

And as we see with Lifeless (and NB) versus Awakened ropes or something, Awakening already has a bit of variation with how it affects things, able to make both Invested objects with Commands and also properly living beings. There's also this WoB:

Quote

mathota123

Also what would happen if I had a LOT of Breath and tried to Awaken something that was still alive...?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO on the second question. You could say that Investing someone with your Breath, however, IS Awakening them.

So I'm not sure that's truly a separate thing. (Nalthian magic is a fun one, because I like to think about just how closely the things you can do align with the Intent behind the Investiture. A Breath is the Investiture used to give life to someone, so when given away it can make someone more alive, or it can bring an otherwise inanimate object to life. A divine Breath is used to perfect and repair the Returned, so when given to someone else, that's what it does, perfects and heals them. Compare to somewhere like Scadrial, where the powers are.... not that Preservation-y :lol:)

On 11/4/2021 at 1:32 PM, Inquisitor #5 said:

The Radiant/spren interaction is (probably) a function of the Radiant bond and the main spren and Radiant "blending" together, but the "perks" of the tipping points are not Surgebinding.

That's a fair point, actually.

On 11/4/2021 at 1:32 PM, Inquisitor #5 said:

I suppose my main disagreement would probably be calling it a magic system.

That's fair, and I don't fully disagree with that. It's in the same sort of neighborhood as "is the boon and curse a magic system", I think. Is "Shards do what Shards do" a "magic system"? Probably not one in the vein of something like Allomancy, but I think you could make the argument it's a very primal expression of the base Cosmere system of magic, in which case I think calling it a different """magic system""" from Radiant-style Surge manipulation works, in the context of the Stormlight Archive.

On 11/4/2021 at 1:32 PM, Inquisitor #5 said:

Kaladin commanding windspren is somewhat similar to the situation with Rysn and the luckspren at the Reshi Isles.

I think this may be the same basic thing.

Agreed.

I'm not fully sure where I think singer forms fall on the spectrum, I think I'd probably put them closer to a Radiant bond than a fabrial, but not reaaally either.

On 11/4/2021 at 1:32 PM, Inquisitor #5 said:

That feels like saying that physics can be debated.

You say this, but... Lasting Integrity...

Quote

The spren claimed it was not Surgebinding that let them walk on the walls here; the long-standing presence of the honorspren instead allowed the tower to choose a different type of natural law.

And I think you could almost argue that Surgebinding is debating the laws of physics, with all the "voice" and Command and "attuned" stuff...

Gahhhckhhhgrde.

On 11/4/2021 at 1:32 PM, Inquisitor #5 said:

In that case it's of course convenient if everyone agrees on the same definitions.

Lol true enough.

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18 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I'm just not really sure how much control Vessels truly have over the magics, even ones that are "theirs".

That's fair.

I'm assuming there is a set of base mechanics governing Shards and Vessels, that might be further modified or added to by the nature of the Shard, the Cognitive aspect of the Vessel and how aligned to the Intent the Vessel is.

Leras get some form of backlash even when he's not the one destroying. (Nature)

Ati channeled Ruin towards entropy, presumably as opposed to mindless destruction. (Cognitive)

Kelsier has a problem wielding Preservation in part because he's much closer to Ruin. (Alignment)

We have very few of the fundamental rules of Shards and Vessels however. I think what we've got are:

1) Investing somewhere somehow anchors the Shard to the place Invested.

2) an agreement made binds the power of the Shard.

3) Vessels are "essentially incapable" of breaking their word, as it wounds them and/or puts them in the power of the other party(/ies) of the agreement.

4) negotiating with a Vessel is done in good faith, they are not like genies of fay, exploiting loopholes of wording to screw you over. They hold to what (they think) they agreed to, not the letter of the agreement.

None of this seems to inherently affect how the magic systems play out, however. We don't have a clear rule for that, though there should be a governing principle.

I think that messing with magic systems might fall under nature/Intent and Cognitive aspect, Honor restricting the Surges/Surgebinding fits well with the whole rules thing he seems to have going.

Under that view it's interesting that Preservation allowed the amount of manipulation of allomancy that was done, though to be fair, we don't have any indication of when this was done, IIRC. It might have happened before Preservation overrode Leras. Or it's just that swapping where the SDNA was expressed (only mistborn vs mistings) was less of a burden than altering existing SDNA to be something else entirely.

18 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

For example, even on Scadrial, where the entire planet is of the Shards, Preservation had to resort to (Spiritual) genetic manipulation of the Mistings to """swap""" atium in for one of the sixteen, and Mistborn could still use the """removed""" metals just fine.

Yeah, mistborn are... interesting...

They basically seem like allomancers unbound. Assuming that Kelsier is right when he says that trying to burn a metal that isn't an allomantic metal will kill you (and that it's not just Lord Ruler propaganda to keep people from experimenting), mistborn have a distinct disadvantage in how they can burn any metal.

Of course, this is just swapping where the ability to burn what was expressed, not changing or removing the effects of those things. Maybe.

Then again, the Bands are way more complicated than they should be if mistborn can burn any metal. If that is true you should be able to store "mistborn-ness" in nicrosilmind, but it's discrete powers which is aaaaaaaaaaaa!

18 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

So I feel that, if the Fused are accessing it via a method that is not made of Honor's power, he probably can't do much to affect it.

I could see that, it really depends on how exactly things work.

If Raboniel is right that the Surges are of Honor and Cultivation, it might be possible. If the Surges are more fundamental, less probable.

Hmm, Marsh's ability to burn atium didn't go away with the Catacendre, so obviously restoring allomancy to the way it was naturally at least didn't swap the nature of existing hemalurgic charges. Urgh.

Yeah, it might be outside the purview of a Shard once another has their fingers in there.

18 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

That's a good point, and I do agree. Just wanted to bring the alternative up, just in case.

Fair, fair.

18 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I'm of the opinion that, going off Venli being able to use VL for her Surgebinding without a notable difference, SL might very well be able to just "plug in" in the place of the mists if you work out a way to breathe it in, which would be pretty scary.

I think to use any of the Lights, there has to be a Connection to the appropriate Shard(s?), but that's not something that a little hemalurgy can't solve. Or a less gruesome hack, if one wills.

Then again, Vasher, who may or may not have a hack... Then again again, the way he describes the highstorm is also kind of interesting in this context:

Quote

One of those storms had come, Invested to the hilt and looking for a place to stick it all.

-WoR, interlude I-6

So there might be enough "pressure" to Invest him to?

Or, based on what we learn from the fabrial lecture in RoW, it's possible that he acts a bit like a gem in the Arnist method, when his Returned-ness starts feeding on Investiture, it might just create a "vaccum," drawing in nearby Light.

Or it works a bit like how a body will break itself down when not fed to perpetuate the most vital functions, but if fed will use that material instead. In the same way, the Divine Breath might consume any available "free" Investiture before itself.

I lean a bit towards the latter, we already see a different Invested Entity feed on whatever (Nightblood, obviously), so it doesn't seem that much of a stretch. We also know that Lifeless need reinfusion eventually, if nothing else from wear and tear. It might simply be that most Awakening has the Breath reclaimed fast enough that there isn't an appreciable difference, especially as people tend to think of Breath as an indivisible unit. And, well, people who aren't directly animated by the Breath might just not need the extra oumph to function, so it's just stored up or used up at such a slow rate that you'd never notice.

I also think the idea that Vasher can survive off Light, but hasn't figured out using it for Awakening but can use it for sustenance, might point to not having the appropriate Connection. He can be Invested with it, but can't actively use it. Or his Divine Breath can absorb it, as it's just free Investiture, not keyed to any Identity. Something like that.

Heh, I did not think that going back up here to add a point about Vasher would lead to a sharp turn into Awakening theory.

I could also see it maybe needing a bit of power to "prime" allomancy, since burning metals pulls Preservation's power through a specific key to do things.

I suppose that depends on where it plugs in. 

And then we have the thought of Light-fueled feruchemy, and anything that bypasses the inherent balance of that system makes things go out of whack very quickly.

18 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I agree with most, but I'm actually not so sure on this one. If you define Awakening as essentially "taking a fragment of the Investiture that gives life and giving it to something else", then I think it's reasonable to speculate that giving Breath to someone is the same thing, just with the thing already having a mind and so not needing one provided

Fair enough.

18 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Heck, the Command even drains color for the transfer like the rest:

Quote

Chaos

Why does giving your Breath to another person not require color? Every other Command does.

Brandon Sanderson

I thought I answered this in the book. You use your own color. :)

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 15, 2013)

And as we see with Lifeless (and NB) versus Awakened ropes or something, Awakening already has a bit of variation with how it affects things, able to make both Invested objects with Commands and also properly living beings.

Huh...

I like to think that I'm pretty well versed in the WoBs, and then things like this happen.

I had completely missed that, neato.

Yep, "my Breff to Jeff" seems to be Awakening then.

Aaand I don't think I've ever thought about how weird Breath is before, why can you keep shoving it into a very Invested system?

Is there just not a point where saturation is impossible? The God King is ridiculously Invested, and they just keep pouring more into him.

To reiterate a previous point: aaaaaaaa!

19 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

There's also this WoB:

Quote

mathota123

Also what would happen if I had a LOT of Breath and tried to Awaken something that was still alive...?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO on the second question. You could say that Investing someone with your Breath, however, IS Awakening them.

Stormlight Three Update #4 (Nov. 2, 2016)

So I'm not sure that's truly a separate thing.

Yeah, I've definitely come around at this point.

I suppose it follows all the standard rules of Awakening, putting Investiture in something via Intent and Command (it doesn't seem to require the proper visualisation of more complex Awakening, but then again, "everyone" knows what it does), draining colour in the process.

19 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Nalthian magic is a fun one, because I like to think about just how closely the things you can do align with the Intent behind the Investiture.

I find it interesting in that it seems to be another very primal system, working very close to the cosmere fundamentals laid out in Dawnshard.

But yes, that is also neat.

(Also, it's really funny to see how much it shows that Adolin was trained by an Awakener if you know where to look.)

Quote

He shook the condensation from his Blade, then twisted and hurled it, transmitting the mental commands that would tell it to hold together. Once again, the weapon shattered into mist moments after it left his fingers. It didn't even cross half the distance to the rock formation he was aiming for.

What was wrong with him? He'd mastered Blade commands years ago.

Quote

He spun and threw the weapon, focusing as Zahel had taught him years before, sending a direct instruction to the Blade—picturing what he needed it to do.

-both WoR, chapter 35

Quote

Move. That thing was still behind him.

One.

The roadway in front of him was piled with rubble from a broken building.

Two.

He limped to the right—toward the ledge down to the next tier of homes.

Three. Four.

The thunderclast trumped and followed, its steps shaking the ground.

Five. Six.

He could hear stone grinding just behind.

He fell to his knees.

Seven

Maya! he thought, truly desperate. Please!

Blessedly, as he raised his hands, the Blade materialised.

-Oathbringer, chapter 120

The WoR bits showcase visualisation along with the (possibly native to Blade-bonds) commands.

The bit from Oathbringer I read as being very similar to Awakening, he knows what he wants to make happen (summon Blade) and gives a Command (Please!) The idea/visualisation probably carries the most weight there, as the Command is very non-specific, but he knows exactly what summoning his Blade is like.

19 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

A Breath is the Investiture used to give life to someone, so when given away it can make someone more alive, or it can bring an otherwise inanimate object to life. A divine Breath is used to perfect and repair the Returned, so when given to someone else, that's what it does, perfects and heals them. Compare to somewhere like Scadrial, where the powers are.... not that Preservation-y :lol:)

Yeah, allomancy is... weird...

Then again, so are the Selish systems. But they of course have a whole lot of stuff going on, soo...

Yep, Breath makes the world more vivid/alive and follows the idea of Endowment very well too. Neaters.

19 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

That's a fair point, actually.

:)

19 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

That's fair, and I don't fully disagree with that. It's in the same sort of neighborhood as "is the boon and curse a magic system", I think.

Well, that's just a question that hurts my brain now.

The Old Magic is a formalised system that works on internal rules, but it's... weird... And for some reason Cultivation/the Nightwatcher (don't know which one) isn't super amenable to offworlders, or possibly people who aren't derived from the Yolish population, so people from Scadrial and (probably) Nalthis.

But it's a magic system of one in that case. Cultivation touching people doesn't work quite like the Old Magic, after all, as seen with Dalinar.

It's a system of magic, but not a magic system? Err, that'll just get confusing.

Are the Simple Rules a magic system? It's a system that governs an expression of Investiture, but I'd say no.

And, three for three: aaaaaaaaa!

20 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Is "Shards do what Shards do" a "magic system"? Probably not one in the vein of something like Allomancy, but I think you could make the argument it's a very primal expression of the base Cosmere system of magic, in which case I think calling it a different """magic system""" from Radiant-style Surge manipulation works, in the context of the Stormlight Archive.

Erm, well, you see...

...

I don't think that's a magic system. It probably is the most fundamental manifestation of Investiture available in the cosmere at present. It is governed by rules.

I suppose it's a bit like looking at a microwave oven and asking "is this the Cosmic Microwave Background?" or as Good Omens put it, "It was for the same reason that people in Trafalgar Square can't see England."

I suppose they are basically playing around with Intent and Command, very close to the basics.

Especially given how Awakening seems to basically work on the same principles as the Dawnshards, and this WoB:

Quote

luckat

What is something that you would have put in the Nalthian essay if you had one in there?

Brandon Sanderson

I probably would have talked about how close some of these scholars are on Nalthis to understanding all of this. They're probably the closest to understanding the nature of the cosmere of anyone outside of the people who are actually worldhoppers. I probably also would have given some hints where the pool is.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

I feel like the easiest solution to why Nalthis would be closest to figuring out how the cosmere works, would be that their Investiture manifests along very basic lines.

Which I suppose also makes a lot of sense, given that Endowment (seemingly) just gives everyone a piece of Investiture without having it filter through anything or changing its nature. But unlike allomancy it requires knowing what you're doing, versus the on/off, discrete powers of allomancy.

(And now I have the picture of a shady dealer going "pst, kid, want some Endowment?")

To bring this back around, I do think that using the category of magic system would be helpful for discussion, if nothing else to establish what the system discussed isn't.

21 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I'm not fully sure where I think singer forms fall on the spectrum, I think I'd probably put them closer to a Radiant bond than a fabrial, but not reaaally either.

Fair, fair.

I suppose it's easy to lump the standard fauna spren bond in with the specialised fauna spren bond.

Possibly the thing that greatshells and whatnot have is closer to "natural fabrial."

But yeah, the singera are wild. Their physiology is... something...

Given that changing forms requires the storm, I think the most satisfying explanation for what's happening is that they tap into Progression, and their body "regrows" to match the intermingled singer and spren, using the storm for power. I don't really know of any other way to explain the massive physiological changes, while keeping skin pattern no less. It has to be Investiture-powered change in any case, because I have no reason to think that that's just a thing that can happen physically.

I suppose if it does come from intermingling the spren's nature with the singer's Spiritweb for the template, then yes, that's very similar to the Radiant bond.

21 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

You say this, but... Lasting Integrity...

Quote

The spren claimed it was not Surgebinding that let them walk on the walls here; the long-standing presence of the honorspren instead allowed the tower to choose a different type of natural law.

And I think you could almost argue that Surgebinding is debating the laws of physics, with all the "voice" and Command and "attuned" stuff...

Heh, fair.

Though I'm not sure how much of that is it being in the Cognitive and inhabited by Syl's people, what with "the laws of physics are just an agreement between friends, we keep it up to not break your brains."

I'd also say that while you are telling the laws of physics to sit pretty by doing magic at them, the underlying truths of the universe still hold. A Windrunner's Lashing doesn't cause all of gravity everywhere to go haywire, for instance.

I might also have thought of IRL physics, rather than cosmere physics when I wrote that. And even then, there should still be a rule which the exceptions work by. Some inescapable fundamental.

21 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Gahhhckhhhgrde

Well said.

 

¤_¤

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21 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I think that messing with magic systems might fall under nature/Intent and Cognitive aspect, Honor restricting the Surges/Surgebinding fits well with the whole rules thing he seems to have going.

I could see that.

21 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Under that view it's interesting that Preservation allowed the amount of manipulation of allomancy that was done, though to be fair, we don't have any indication of when this was done, IIRC. It might have happened before Preservation overrode Leras. Or it's just that swapping where the SDNA was expressed (only mistborn vs mistings) was less of a burden than altering existing SDNA to be something else entirely.

I think this is partly where the Intention aspect of things comes into the picture. While it's a change, it's a relatively minor one, and done with the Intent to Preserve. While there's a limit to how far that can stretch things, I think as long as it's not too drastic, it can help.

21 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Of course, this is just swapping where the ability to burn what was expressed, not changing or removing the effects of those things. Maybe.

This is all made a lot more complicated by one thing: in my opinion, WoBs strongly imply that as a general rule, anyone can burn any godmetal, as long as they have a tie to the Shard.

Quote

Questioner

Can any Allomancer burn atium?

Brandon Sanderson

Can any Allomancer burn atium? Atium, no. Asterisk but no. There is a reason why. But no, they cannot.

(And if you listen to the audio on that one, he says it in a kind of odd way, as if he's trying to think about how much to say.)

Quote

Questioner

If someone isn’t an Allomancer, could they burn atium? Since it’s…

Brandon Sanderson

They could not burn atium. They would have figured that one out.

Questioner

So nothing would have happened, or?

Brandon Sanderson

No. But there’s a little more to that story, but I’m not going to get into it right now.

Quote

Questioner

Can an Allomancer burn any god metal? Or is it specifically Preservation and Ruin?

Brandon Sanderson

That is actually a RAFO. There's some funkyness going on there.

There's actually even more WoBs that relate to that topic, I've got my own theory on what's going on there. But the situation's clearly a bit different from the way it appears on the surface, and that makes it really hard to determine just how far Preservation went or didn't go.

21 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Hmm, Marsh's ability to burn atium didn't go away with the Catacendre, so obviously restoring allomancy to the way it was naturally at least didn't swap the nature of existing hemalurgic charges. Urgh.

Ah, good point I didn't even think about, so I feel that helps narrow things down for what happened. Imo, that makes it even less likely it was doing any sort of fundamental change, as opposed to just altering which "genes" naturally express themselves somehow.


EDIT: New Word of Peter that's relevant: Preservation didn't change Allomancy after all. Which is basically my theory, so I shall rejoice :D

Quote

Xais56

Brandon has said that everyone ought to be able to burn Atium, like they can all burn Lerasium, and the fact that they can't was an oversight on his part that he would've done different in hindsight.

Maybe now he's had an in-universe reason to re-write the laws of allomancy it's back to his intended concept; Mistborn burn all 16 base metals, mistings burn one base metal, non-allomancers can only burn godmetal.

Peter Ahlstrom

My explanation for this is that Preservation somehow caused all naturally occurring atium to form as an alloy of atium and electrum. The atium Mistings were actually electrum Mistings.

Xais56

It's a very tidy solution, but it creates the maddening question of what does pure atium do?

Peter Ahlstrom

That answer has already been revealed canonically. RAFO.


21 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I think to use any of the Lights, there has to be a Connection to the appropriate Shard(s?)

Probably, I was viewing that as a step in working out how to breathe it in but those might not be quite the same issue.

21 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

So there might be enough "pressure" to Invest him to?

Or, based on what we learn from the fabrial lecture in RoW, it's possible that he acts a bit like a gem in the Arnist method, when his Returned-ness starts feeding on Investiture, it might just create a "vaccum," drawing in nearby Light.

Hmm, that's an interesting idea.

I still wonder whether his Shardic composition has changed at all from using Stormlight to live for such a long time or not. I could see it going either way.

21 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I lean a bit towards the latter, we already see a different Invested Entity feed on whatever (Nightblood, obviously), so it doesn't seem that much of a stretch.

Agreed.

21 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

And, well, people who aren't directly animated by the Breath might just not need the extra oumph to function, so it's just stored up or used up at such a slow rate that you'd never notice.

Breath is weird because the quantity of it in a person doesn't seem to change much (though there is variation, going off the Ars Arcanum), but apparently they grow less "vigorous" as a person ages. Might be related to the way Stormlight in use recharges sand quicker than Stormlight sitting there, the Investiture is more active and "alive", so to speak?

21 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I also think the idea that Vasher can survive off Light, but hasn't figured out using it for Awakening but can use it for sustenance, might point to not having the appropriate Connection. He can be Invested with it, but can't actively use it. Or his Divine Breath can absorb it, as it's just free Investiture, not keyed to any Identity. Something like that.

Hm, could definitely be. My thought on it has mostly been that Breath might be a bit more... "shaped", so to speak, while the Lights and mist are more formless, but haven't put a ton of thought into the specifics.

21 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Heh, I did not think that going back up here to add a point about Vasher would lead to a sharp turn into Awakening theory.

Heh, yeah, I get that :lol: you just want to add one little detail but next thing you know... There's a reason I haven't finished a proper theory post in a while now :lol:

21 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

And then we have the thought of Light-fueled feruchemy, and anything that bypasses the inherent balance of that system makes things go out of whack very quickly.

Oh yeesh yeah that's wild.

21 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I like to think that I'm pretty well versed in the WoBs, and then things like this happen.

Lol yeah. Always a combination of "how the heck did I miss that" and "ooo what else is there?"

In a similar vein, and even also about Awakening... I recently stumbled across the WoBs that kind of sort of imply a Lifeless is almost a Cognitive Shadow, and that was a weird one for me to consider.

21 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Aaand I don't think I've ever thought about how weird Breath is before, why can you keep shoving it into a very Invested system?

Is there just not a point where saturation is impossible? The God King is ridiculously Invested, and they just keep pouring more into him.

Hmmm very good question. If I had to guess, it's because of the way Breaths have that weird attribute of kinda latching onto the person (hence why they can be taken offworld and stuff). Like, they no longer conflict or something (after all, a Radiant can take in quite a bit of Stormlight even when they're bonded not just to their Blade spren but to a dozen Plate spren too, so clearly not all Investiture prevents further Investment, perhaps just Investiture with conflicting Identities or something).

21 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

(it doesn't seem to require the proper visualisation of more complex Awakening, but then again, "everyone" knows what it does)

Yeah I'd guess the fact there's not really anything you're specifically telling it to do, just wanting it to do the exact thing it's currently doing but in someone else, probably means it doesn't require too complex a visualization.

21 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

(Also, it's really funny to see how much it shows that Adolin was trained by an Awakener if you know where to look.)

Heh, never noticed that before. Yeah, Zahel's training really shows sometimes.

21 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

But it's a magic system of one in that case

Hey, Brandon considers Spider-Man a magic system! :P

21 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

And, three for three: aaaaaaaaa!

Yuuuuuuuuuup.

21 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I don't think that's a magic system. It probably is the most fundamental manifestation of Investiture available in the cosmere at present. It is governed by rules.

Yeah, it's pretty much the magic system, as opposed to just a magic system.

21 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I feel like the easiest solution to why Nalthis would be closest to figuring out how the cosmere works, would be that their Investiture manifests along very basic lines.

That would make sense. They also seem to have been involved in worldhopping for a while now, we know there's been a lot of traffic between Nalthis and Roshar for a long time, which probably helped just via things like the Five Scholars using that knowledge and spreading it, even if most of the world doesn't know where they got it.

21 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

without having it filter through anything or changing its nature

I'd argue there's still a filter, but would agree it's a lot less filtered or restricted compared to a lot of other magics. (Specifically, it is the Investiture that gives them/enhances their life and thought, and beyond odd complicated things we don't understand like the memory Commands, its effects are indeed limited to this. It makes people more alive and connected to the world around them, it brings life to nonliving things and grants them the ability to think, it restores the dead to a crude facsimile of what they once were, etc.) But compare that to something like Allomantic gold or Basic Lashings... yeah, definitely much looser, agreed.

21 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

To bring this back around, I do think that using the category of magic system would be helpful for discussion, if nothing else to establish what the system discussed isn't.

Yeah, it does have a use, same as how "end positive/neutral/negative" do have a use for getting across the idea of what is happening in some magics, even if it falls apart when applied more broadly. But within the spot where it's relevant, it's useful, yeah.

21 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I suppose it's easy to lump the standard fauna spren bond in with the specialised fauna spren bond.

I do think they're pretty similar, but singer forms seem to function via a deeper bond with one spren that changes the singer on a fundamental level, while the other bonds seem to be to multiple spren in a way that causes less of a change outside the one thing that's needed. Perhaps, rough analogy, it's the difference between Kaladin's bond to Syl and Kaladin's bond to the windspren?

21 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I suppose if it does come from intermingling the spren's nature with the singer's Spiritweb for the template, then yes, that's very similar to the Radiant bond.

Fun fact, Brandon's actually compared the forms to Hemalurgy before.

21 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Though I'm not sure how much of that is it being in the Cognitive and inhabited by Syl's people, what with "the laws of physics are just an agreement between friends, we keep it up to not break your brains."

Yeah, definitely. I doubt if they were sitting in the Physical that would be happening.

21 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I'd also say that while you are telling the laws of physics to sit pretty by doing magic at them, the underlying truths of the universe still hold. A Windrunner's Lashing doesn't cause all of gravity everywhere to go haywire, for instance.

Yeahh I usually just kinda try and ignore the way those things relate to this stuff because it hurts my brain lol. If all that's needed to make gravity affect someone differently is just to convince their soul that the planet's a different direction... yeah no I'll just let Syl and her pals get away with their agreement to pretend lol.

21 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

And even then, there should still be a rule which the exceptions work by. Some inescapable fundamental.

Probably, but I expect it to be pretty wibbly-wobbly with how core the Cognitive and Spiritual are to most things.

Edited by LewsTherinTelescope
WoP about Allomancy
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On 2021-11-08 at 2:19 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

EDIT: New Word of Peter that's relevant: Preservation didn't change Allomancy after all. Which is basically my theory, so I shall rejoice :D

Quote

Xais56

Brandon has said that everyone ought to be able to burn Atium, like they can all burn Lerasium, and the fact that they can't was an oversight on his part that he would've done different in hindsight.

Maybe now he's had an in-universe reason to re-write the laws of allomancy it's back to his intended concept; Mistborn burn all 16 base metals, mistings burn one base metal, non-allomancers can only burn godmetal.

Peter Ahlstrom

My explanation for this is that Preservation somehow caused all naturally occurring atium to form as an alloy of atium and electrum. The atium Mistings were actually electrum Mistings.

Xais56

It's a very tidy solution, but it creates the maddening question of what does pure atium do?

Peter Ahlstrom

That answer has already been revealed canonically. RAFO.

General Reddit 2021 (Nov. 2, 2021)

Well, depending on how this is to be interpreted (I've seen the argument that it would only relate to the Mistborn screenplay, not the books) it invalidates the entire debate.

My initial reaction was "that makes sense, I hate it." :P

It handily explains why Hemalurgic atium must be refined.

It might even provide a bit more of an explanation for why Ruin couldn't find the atium, if it wasn't pure, then it might have worked to occlude his sense of it.

It makes sense that a misting would be able to burn their atium alloy as well, seeing as you can burn metals with improper ratios. And since atium is the fuel source, unlike regular Allomancy, you're presumably piggybacking it on the standard burn, getting an admixture effect.

And the ability to burn atium would naturally let you burn any atium alloy, just the other way around.

It does raise the question of why atium and atium-electrum (apparently) do the same thing. Though it handily explains malatium. Argh, it makes sense and throws the Metallic Arts out of whack.

Is Feruchemical age a property of atium or electrum-atium? Marsh is presumably able to store/tap age in his atium spikes, but... argh... He might have metalminds pilfered off a keeper, in addition to the bag of atium. He needs to have at least two atium spikes... I think.

Would electrum Feruchemy let you store in unprocessed atium?

I think that Marsh was granted A-atium and F-atium, rather than electrum, requiring atium spikes. 

(I spent far too much time staring at the Metallic Arts charts yesterday, and then a bunch of time on Wikipedia trying to figure out if cadmium makes a viable spike.)

Assuming that ore compositions on Scadrial are about the same as RL Earth, they can have access to cadmium during the time of ash, as it's a zink byproduct.

So they could theoretically have stolen Temporal Allomancy, but it would be unlikely IMO, cadmium is rare, and more importantly soft. Its Mohs hardness is 2, fingernails are 2–2.5 and gold is 2.5–3 (thanks Wikipedia.) I don't think it's likely that they stole electrum Allomancy to power up Inqusitors.

So two atium spikes, stealing powers outside the standard set.

Thankfully gold and electrum steal Hybrid Feruchemy and Enhancement Allomancy, so the known metals are consistent with powers displayed by the souped up Inquisitors.

Did we ever get a viewpoint from a misting burning atium? It's been so long, I honestly can't remember. Though, atium Allomancy should enable atium-alloy burning, as I said above.

Of course, in view of this, Marsh's ability to burn atium post Catacendre is no longer a significant data point if Allomancy never actually changed.

And I just thought of the idea of being able to piggyback godmetals you don't have a Connection to by alloying them.

Well, that got long... and sidetracked...

Anyway...

On 2021-11-08 at 2:19 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Probably, I was viewing that as a step in working out how to breathe it in but those might not be quite the same issue.

Fair, fair.

On 2021-11-08 at 2:19 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I still wonder whether his Shardic composition has changed at all from using Stormlight to live for such a long time or not. I could see it going either way.

I don't think so, though I've never even considered it before. I also don't know what difference it would make. Hmm...

It would depend on exactly what happens on his "feast day." Is the Divine Breath incorporating the Investiture and a bit of itself consumed? Based on how the entire thing allegedly disappears if there isn't enough Investiture to feed on, I'd think that's not what happens. Then again, it could be a function of dipping below the Fifth Heightening, however fractionally. Then again, their persistence might not be a function of the Fifth Heightening. It feels like that might be the thing still... If they dip below things get ontological. Maybe.

So Vasher might be a double fossil, Stormlight in the shape of a Divine Breath.

I also just realised how similar the Heightenings and the Ideals are, which might be reinforced by Riino too. They are both tipping points on a scale, the gradient of the Heightenings is just spelled out. Huh...

On 2021-11-08 at 2:19 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Breath is weird because the quantity of it in a person doesn't seem to change much (though there is variation, going off the Ars Arcanum), but apparently they grow less "vigorous" as a person ages.

Yeah, I suppose it can be analogised to a battery, the unit of battery doesn't change, but the amount of charge it can hold does. If it's part of a person's "anima" or life force, it makes sense if it would decrease in potency as a person ages.

And yeah, there is internal variation, which is why the number of Breaths is approximate. Though standardised average Breath is still probably the best contender for the basic Investiture unit.

Nalthis is interesting.

On 2021-11-08 at 2:19 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

My thought on it has mostly been that Breath might be a bit more... "shaped", so to speak, while the Lights and mist are more formless, but haven't put a ton of thought into the specifics.

Hmm, that makes sense. Breath wants to be not just in the shape of life, but the shape of human. We see it in the cloth Vasher uses to lift himself up, for one. That one looks like muscle and sinew moving under skin, if I recall. It might even be the shape of the Awakener specifically, seeing as Vasher doesn't patch the holes in his clothing corresponding to scars, IIRC.

The Lights don't want to be in a particular shape and possibly want to not be in a particular shape.

On 2021-11-08 at 2:19 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Lol yeah. Always a combination of "how the heck did I miss that" and "ooo what else is there?"

Yeah, I didn't find a WoB (possibly) confirming a position I'd had for years until earlier this year, and it was from 2014.

On 2021-11-08 at 2:19 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

In a similar vein, and even also about Awakening... I recently stumbled across the WoBs that kind of sort of imply a Lifeless is almost a Cognitive Shadow, and that was a weird one for me to consider.

That makes sense, in a roundabout way. Like the Breath patterning to the existing ex-being. Makes some sense with Clod as well, the Lifeless is influenced by... something about who this used to be. Possibly patterning off neurological patterns and/or Cognitive/Spiritual shenanigans. Makes me wonder if making a Lifeless from a fresher body makes it "better." It might allow the Breath to access/pattern off the Spiritweb before it unravels.

Or I might be entirely off base, I'll have to track this WoB down.

On 2021-11-08 at 2:19 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Hmmm very good question. If I had to guess, it's because of the way Breaths have that weird attribute of kinda latching onto the person (hence why they can be taken offworld and stuff).

That might be the case. It might also have something to do with them being "supposed" to go there, unlike Light, which is on a planet that's not supposed to even have humans.

On 2021-11-08 at 2:19 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Like, they no longer conflict or something (after all, a Radiant can take in quite a bit of Stormlight even when they're bonded not just to their Blade spren but to a dozen Plate spren too, so clearly not all Investiture prevents further Investment, perhaps just Investiture with conflicting Identities or something).

Maybe so. Radiants seemingly reach Investiture saturation long before Awakeners, though. Then again, Breath is "human-shaped" and "life-shaped," so it might just be that the Breath "slots in" more easily. It's not this explosive energy that wants out.

But yeah, it might be that it's easier to Invest something with Investiture that aligns with the nature of the existing Investiture (Breath and Breath, Light and Spren) just like we have no indication that a fuller metalmind is any harder to keep filling than an empty one.

On 2021-11-08 at 2:19 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Yeah I'd guess the fact there's not really anything you're specifically telling it to do, just wanting it to do the exact thing it's currently doing but in someone else, probably means it doesn't require too complex a visualization.

Fair, it might be a bit like when Vivenna pours Breath into, IIRC, Tonk Fah's cloak, but doesn't manage to tell it to do anything. It might be that the only real difference is wether the Breath can be reclaimed, when it goes into something too close to living (standard person, Lifeless, Returned) it starts sticking to them as theirs.

On 2021-11-08 at 2:19 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Hey, Brandon considers Spider-Man a magic system! :P

I... see...

On 2021-11-08 at 2:19 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Yeah, it's pretty much the magic system, as opposed to just a magic system.

Yeah, that sounds pretty accurate.

On 2021-11-08 at 2:19 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

They also seem to have been involved in worldhopping for a while now, we know there's been a lot of traffic between Nalthis and Roshar for a long time, which probably helped just via things like the Five Scholars using that knowledge and spreading it, even if most of the world doesn't know where they got it.

Oh, that probably helped. I suppose the worldhopper clause doesn't preclude information diseminated from worldhoppers.

On 2021-11-08 at 2:19 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I'd argue there's still a filter, but would agree it's a lot less filtered or restricted compared to a lot of other magics. (Specifically, it is the Investiture that gives them/enhances their life and thought, and beyond odd complicated things we don't understand like the memory Commands, its effects are indeed limited to this.

Oh, yeah. I suppose there is a nature to it, an extra spark of life. Especially with how Awakened things want to be human-shaped. 

But yeah, it's very raw, and not filtered through something like a metal or Aon.

On 2021-11-08 at 2:19 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Yeah, it does have a use, same as how "end positive/neutral/negative" do have a use for getting across the idea of what is happening in some magics, even if it falls apart when applied more broadly. But within the spot where it's relevant, it's useful, yeah.

Yeah.

On 2021-11-08 at 2:19 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I do think they're pretty similar, but singer forms seem to function via a deeper bond with one spren that changes the singer on a fundamental level, while the other bonds seem to be to multiple spren in a way that causes less of a change outside the one thing that's needed.

Fair, fair.

Same basic principle, different application.

On 2021-11-08 at 2:19 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Perhaps, rough analogy, it's the difference between Kaladin's bond to Syl and Kaladin's bond to the windspren?

Seems fair.

On 2021-11-08 at 2:19 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Fun fact, Brandon's actually compared the forms to Hemalurgy before.

Huh, neat.

Makes sense with this WoB as well:

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

Given that Investiture is Investiture, would there be potential Investiture of like, kandra to Parshendi using Hemalurgic spikes?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Hemalurgic spikes can be used on any planet.

Questioner (paraphrased)

Would it be potential for Parshendi to develop a form using the spikes?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Wow, that would be a really weird hack of the magic system that would be theoretically possible. But that's a really weird one. I had never even considered that one. Parshendi adopting other Investiture could happen, the spikes is not one I've considered.

Words of Radiance Washington, DC signing (March 20, 2014)

But yeah, something enters/attaches to the soul, and it is reflected Physically (to varying degrees). It's just done as a natural function for the listeners, one that doesn't require killing and brutality, and is reversible.

On 2021-11-08 at 2:19 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Yeah, definitely. I doubt if they were sitting in the Physical that would be happening.

I sure hope that's true.

On 2021-11-08 at 2:19 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Yeahh I usually just kinda try and ignore the way those things relate to this stuff because it hurts my brain lol.

Fair enough.

On 2021-11-08 at 2:19 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

If all that's needed to make gravity affect someone differently is just to convince their soul that the planet's a different direction... yeah no I'll just let Syl and her pals get away with their agreement to pretend lol.

That actually sounds similar to the original premise of this thread, (or at least what someone said back on page one, IIRC) a Physical manifestation of a Spiritual property. Just like "you are one" can stick things together, "down is that way" could enable flight-ish, no?

On 2021-11-08 at 2:19 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Probably, but I expect it to be pretty wibbly-wobbly with how core the Cognitive and Spiritual are to most things.

In my mind there still has to be some fundamental underlying that then. I suppose that just as the Spiritual aspect is the perfect version, there should be a Spiritual, "perfect" framework that everything else derives from. Then you'd get wibbly wobbly once the Cognitive entered into it.

Something like that.

Though the very fundamental mechanics of the cosmere will probably not be deeply important, at least in the short term.

And hey, as long as the stories keep being satisfying. And we can keep making, if not accurate, at least plausible predictions.

 

¤_¤

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1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

It does raise the question of why atium and atium-electrum (apparently) do the same thing.

Do they? It might be that all the atium (outside the "refined" spikes) we've seen has been electrum-atium. And the description of what "pure" atium does in the Allomantic chart doesn't quiiiiiiiite line up, in my opinion, though it's very close and I could see the argument. Description of atium:

Quote

Pure atium grants the Allomancer an expansive vision of the future and enhances the mind's ability to accept, process, and hold information

Description of electrum:

Quote

Burning electrum allows an Allomancer to see a vision of possible paths they could take in the future. Usually limited to a few seconds

The electrum one mentions the limitations, while the atium one merely says "expansive", which I'd say matches Elend's transcension moment more than the normal function of the metal we see. My guess is that pure atium basically puts you into the Cognitive and Spiritual a bit (which the atium we see used actually does, too, according to Kelsier's description of them "transcending" the Realms), while electrum-atium (I like the name "benatium" to contrast with gold-atium's "malatium") filters this into future shadows like electrum has, and malatium filters it into past/alt-present shadows like gold has. But when burning it with duralumin and a ton of "atium", Elend basically overwhelmed the filter and cracked it wide open, not dissimilar to how using steel and iron with the Bands allows seeing other objects besides metal (in fact, I wonder if a Bands user burning electrum would transcend like that...).

2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Is Feruchemical age a property of atium or electrum-atium?

I'd guess the latter (shame it's not malatium, health + Shard of time passing = youth would've been a nice fit), since otherwise it'd probably indicate the "refined" form being widely known, when presumably only Inquisitors know (assuming Rashek didn't just provide the atium spikes premade).

2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Would electrum Feruchemy let you store in unprocessed atium?

Hm, I'd guess probably.

2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

And the ability to burn atium would naturally let you burn any atium alloy, just the other way around.

I'm not actually sure I'd agree with this (though I could totally see an argument for it and it's not a hill I'd die on). WoBs have seemed to imply that godmetals might be burnable by anyone with sufficient tie to the Shard, which makes sense to me since it's really just a chunk of pure Investiture sitting inside your body and spiritweb (though a longer discussion on that should probably go in the thread I linked instead of here... though it ties into the discussion here about using Stormlight so...). Meanwhile, burning an alloy probably requires being able to burn the base metal, I feel, because otherwise you'd just be using the Investiture and leaving the metal behind, which is... not a pleasant thought.

In my opinion, burning a godmetal is "Allomancy" the way sticking a random Invested piece of metal in someone is "Hemalurgy": same fundamental mechanics, but different in some key ways that make categorization difficult, and with one being a more broad and base mechanic than the other.

2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

So they could theoretically have stolen Temporal Allomancy,

Apparently atium was the spike they thought stole that.

Quote
Remember that the tables—and the ars Arcanum—are 'in world' creations. (Or, at least, in-universe.) The knowledge represented in them is as people understand it, and can always have flaws. That was the case with having atium on the table in the first place, and that was the case with people (specifically the Inquisitors) trying to figure out what atium did Hemalurgically.

Their experiments (very expensive ones) are what determined that atium (which they thought was just one of the sixteen metals) granted the Allomantic Temporal powers. What they didn't realize is that atium (used correctly) could steal ANY of the powers. Think of it as a wild card. With the right knowledge, you could use it to mimic any other spike. It works far better than other spikes as well.

Which is interesting, considering "must be refined"....

2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Did we ever get a viewpoint from a misting burning atium?

I don't think so. Just Mistborn like Vin and Elend.

2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Based on how the entire thing allegedly disappears if there isn't enough Investiture to feed on, I'd think that's not what happens.

That's a good point, actually. Though, the fact a younger Breath does make a Returned feel noticeably better than an old one does shows it doesn't not have an effect on them, either... hm..... This is a really weird question, now.

2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I also just realised how similar the Heightenings and the Ideals are, which might be reinforced by Riino too. They are both tipping points on a scale, the gradient of the Heightenings is just spelled out. Huh...

Huh, interesting connection.

2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Though standardised average Breath is still probably the best contender for the basic Investiture unit.

Yeah, probably.

2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

We see it in the cloth Vasher uses to lift himself up, for one. That one looks like muscle and sinew moving under skin, if I recall. It might even be the shape of the Awakener specifically, seeing as Vasher doesn't patch the holes in his clothing corresponding to scars, IIRC.

Yeah. A relevant WoB:

Quote

EarthRester

In Warbreaker, the closer an inanimate object is to a humanoid shape, the easier it is to awaken it.

Hypothetically, say a race of sentient quadrupedal canines had access to BioChromatic Breath. Would they have an easier time awakening objects if they were closer to a canine shape, or is the rule still that it needs to be more humanoid?

Brandon Sanderson

Closer to canine.

So it seems like it works best if it's similar to the Awakener. Perhaps because "rekeying" to match the object requires less of a change? Or perhaps because the Connection between the Awakener and object is stronger and so not as much power is needed to forge the pathway between the two? Idk exactly.

3 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

The Lights don't want to be in a particular shape and possibly want to not be in a particular shape.

Light (Stormlight and Lifelight, anyway, though not Voidlight, because for some Ado-forsaken reason Lifelight is exactly the same emotionally as Stormlight, down to being "a storm in her veins") really likes acting and doing and storming, which (for Stormlight) makes sense if it comes from, well, the Storm.

3 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Yeah, I didn't find a WoB (possibly) confirming a position I'd had for years until earlier this year, and it was from 2014.

Which one, out of curiosity?

3 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Or I might be entirely off base, I'll have to track this WoB down.

It's mostly a combination of a few of them.

Quote

TurtletheFlsh

What would happen if you created a lifeless with more breath then is necessary? Would they be more or completely human or just a lifeless that's holding more breath?

Brandon Sanderson

Lifeless with more breath are an interesting situation. It's quite possible for the BREATH to start taking on a personality, much like a cognitive shadow, related to the individual. Whether or not it is actually them, though, is a big question. Note, this doesn't always happen. Often, dumping a lot of breath in them is like sticking it in an inanimate object with no command.

Quote

Oudeis16

If Bob the Awakener Awakened fifty straw men to dance around, then died, then Returned as FormerBob the Appropriately Named, would FormerBob be able to reclaim the Breath from the straw men in the normal fashion (once he learned the "Your Breath to Mine" Command)?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. He has enough of his original Identity, and the spiritual connection would remain.

sonofstannis

What if he instead were reincarnated as a lifeless? Is there a way he could reclaim it then?

Brandon Sanderson

Lifeless have someone else's investiture replacing their own. (As opposed to Returned, who are augmented.) Depends on how much of them is left, and if they can achieve sapience again, but I'd say this is unlikely.

WeiryWriter

What if the Lifeless is Awakened with their own Breath? (i.e. they gave it away right before they died and the person they gave it to then used it in the Awakening)

Brandon Sanderson

This has happened already in the world, and it does help.

Unfortunately, the question's been RAFO'd for being plot-relevant to the Nightblood novel.

Quote

Haverworthy

In his current revised in-world framework, would Vasher include the Lifeless in the same category as Shadows in the Type IIs? You've talked in the Warbreaker Annotations about how it was a mistake for the awakeners to keep the Lifeless in the dark:

Lightsong Sees the Lifeless and Takes Command of Them

They keep them in the dark. This is a bad idea. They don't realize it, but the Lifeless are far more aware than everyone assumes. Clod in this book is a foreshadowing of that, and there won't be much more about it in the rest of the novel. It's one of the focus points for the sequel, if I ever write it. (Which will actually have a Lifeless as a viewpoint character, if I can find a way to swing it.)

And then there is the in-story information given to us about how Lifeless retain some measure of their skills from before their death. Would it be fair to say that the Lifeless would be considered by Vasher to be Cognitive Shadows of this nature:

For the weaker ones, just kill the body again, make sure no one Invests the soul with more strength, and they’ll slip away in a few minutes.

Brandon Sanderson

This is RAFO material in that it is a possible plot point for a future Warbreaker book. (Sorry.)

So they almost seem to be incredibly weak Cognitive Shadows, perhaps even halfway between a Cognitive Shadow of the old person and a completely new spren. Slaughter and Despair, so many things seem to be way more of a gradient than we'd previously thought...

3 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Radiants seemingly reach Investiture saturation long before Awakeners, though.

That's a good point. Might have to do with the way Breath seems to attach itself in a more Spiritual way, while Stormlight seems to reside more in the Physical?

3 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

It's not this explosive energy that wants out.

That's a good point too, Stormlight seems to love trying to escape, while Breath seems to latch on and integrate itself.

3 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

just like we have no indication that a fuller metalmind is any harder to keep filling than an empty one.

Huh, never considered that. Yeah, nice one.

3 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Fair, it might be a bit like when Vivenna pours Breath into, IIRC, Tonk Fah's cloak, but doesn't manage to tell it to do anything.

Oooh, yeah, that makes sense.

3 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I... see...

Yeah that was about my reaction to seeing the example too :lol:

3 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Makes sense with this WoB as well:

Huh, forgot about that one.

3 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

But yeah, something enters/attaches to the soul, and it is reflected Physically (to varying degrees). It's just done as a natural function for the listeners, one that doesn't require killing and brutality, and is reversible.

Pretty much.

3 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Just like "you are one" can stick things together, "down is that way" could enable flight-ish, no?

Makes sense to me.

3 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I suppose that just as the Spiritual aspect is the perfect version, there should be a Spiritual, "perfect" framework that everything else derives from.

Otoh, the Spiritual is... pretty weird on its own, really. So maybe? But maybe not? Or maybe sorta both? Idek...

The way the Realms relate with each other is weird.

3 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Though the very fundamental mechanics of the cosmere will probably not be deeply important, at least in the short term.

Lol yeah probably not. I'm guessing they'll dig more into things in Era 3 and the back half, but probably not truly hit it for a while. I imagine it'll be important in Dragonsteel, at the very least, though.

3 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

And hey, as long as the stories keep being satisfying. And we can keep making, if not accurate, at least plausible predictions.

Yep!

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12 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Do they?

Well, I did say "apparently." :P

12 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

It might be that all the atium (outside the "refined" spikes) we've seen has been electrum-atium.

Assuming that your read of the WoP is correct, this tracks. The atium stockpiled by the kandra could be burned by mistings after all.

12 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

And the description of what "pure" atium does in the Allomantic chart doesn't quiiiiiiiite line up, in my opinion, though it's very close and I could see the argument.

Yeah, I know we disagreed on this in the other thread. I think I'm more amenable to it post-WoP.

12 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Description of atium:

Quote

Pure atium grants the Allomancer an expansive vision of the future and enhances the mind's ability to accept, process, and hold information

Description of electrum:

Quote

Burning electrum allows an Allomancer to see a vision of possible paths they could take in the future. Usually limited to a few seconds

Hmm, the problem here is what "expansive" is supposed to mean, though if atium was meant to foreshadow (heh) Fortune, then letting you do more than just glimpse the future makes sense.

12 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

The electrum one mentions the limitations, while the atium one merely says "expansive", which I'd say matches Elend's transcension moment more than the normal function of the metal we see.

That is fair, no limit mentioned on atium.

I don't think that pure atium on its own would cause a moment of transcendental understanding like that, but I could see it being more similar to Renarin's stuff.

12 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

My guess is that pure atium basically puts you into the Cognitive and Spiritual a bit (which the atium we see used actually does, too, according to Kelsier's description of them "transcending" the Realms), while electrum-atium (I like the name "benatium" to contrast with gold-atium's "malatium") filters this into future shadows like electrum has, and malatium filters it into past/alt-present shadows like gold has.

Makes sense. The description of atium alloys producing "expanded mental and temporal effects" might play a part in how atium shadows are generated for everything around you, not just one or a few specific things. Vin's vision of Rashek could also possibly read as more expansive than her own gold shadow, pretty sure she gets more information out of it. Then again, her mind doesn't have to deal with the trip of burning gold in that moment.

12 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

But when burning it with duralumin and a ton of "atium", Elend basically overwhelmed the filter and cracked it wide open, not dissimilar to how using steel and iron with the Bands allows seeing other objects besides metal

Yeah, I think that with pure atium, he'd have gotten even more. He's basically getting a huge dose of Fortune in one go, but if it hadn't been adulterated it would have carried even further.

Or there's only so much Fortune that can be squeezed into one moment.

12 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

in fact, I wonder if a Bands user burning electrum would transcend like that...

Given how we never get a description of duralumin steel/iron transcending metals in that way, probably. Or even more so.

Then again, the atium itself is the power-source in this case, so there isn't more Investiture to channel. Which I think is what has to be happening with the modular strength of the Bands.

More Investiture per unit of metal. 

Then again, channeling more Investiture should burn the metals faster.

So maybe it's just how well you can use the Investiture once you have it?

And I just caught that you said electrum and not atium... So the power source thing is out.

Given this WoB:

Quote

Wigginns

What would a Hemalurgic spike granting atium do for an Allomancer already able to burn atium? Does it function similarly to bronze, granting enhanced atium-ing? Along this line of thought, would enhancing electrum burning via spike be of any advantage?

Brandon Sanderson

A spike of something you have would enhance your ability, giving your more strength. With atium, more strength makes for a minimal edge--the length you can push out the atium shadows. However, there's a certain breaking point where you kind of crack the whole system, peer straight into the [Spiritual Realm], and kind of have a "It's full of stars" moment.

Electrum could reach this same moment, potentially, though there's more interference to fight through. Extra strength in electrum isn't going to be terribly useful up to that point.

Alsadius

Is that what happened when atium was burned with duralumin?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Footnote: In his original response Brandon mistakenly said burning atium and duralumin would cause the Allomancer to peer into the Cognitive Realm, rather than Spiritual Realm. He has since confirmed that this was a mistake.
/r/books AMA 2015 (Aug. 1, 2015)

Emphasis mine.

I think that the Bands would be the "easiest" way to get to that point.

13 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I'd guess the latter (shame it's not malatium, health + Shard of time passing = youth would've been a nice fit), since otherwise it'd probably indicate the "refined" form being widely known, when presumably only Inquisitors know

That's fair. It's too bad ferrings didn't exist back then. Assuming the Keepers/full Feruchemists to be a Feruchemical wild card, the same as mistborn are for Allomancy.

13 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

assuming Rashek didn't just provide the atium spikes premade

I can totally see him doing that.

13 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Hm, I'd guess probably.

I suppose that's consistent.

13 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I'm not actually sure I'd agree with this (though I could totally see an argument for it and it's not a hill I'd die on). WoBs have seemed to imply that godmetals might be burnable by anyone with sufficient tie to the Shard, which makes sense to me since it's really just a chunk of pure Investiture sitting inside your body and spiritweb

That makes sense, yes. Especially with how the trick to find atium mistings was to spike (heh) the punch at a party with atium and creating a disturbance that would cause people to unconsciously burn metal.

It would have created a bunch of false positives otherwise.

13 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

In my opinion, burning a godmetal is "Allomancy" the way sticking a random Invested piece of metal in someone is "Hemalurgy": same fundamental mechanics, but different in some key ways that make categorization difficult, and with one being a more broad and base mechanic than the other.

Fair enough. 

I do think that someone who had the ability to burn atium Allomantically would be able to burn any atium alloy.

In a similar way to how lerasium can be burned by anyone, but also has some Allomantic effect.

So, anyone with correct Connection could non-Allomantically burn a godmetal, a mistborn could Allomantically burn godmetal (uncertain how exactly Connection plays into that one.)

13 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

though a longer discussion on that should probably go in the thread I linked instead of here...

Yeah, it probably should. I spotted something trawling through WoBs that I want to comment on there.

Yet another fun thing about WoB trawling: finding something you've never thought about, or seeing something in a new context.

13 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Apparently atium was the spike they thought stole that.

Yeah, true. This still allows the Ruinquisitors to have done that kind of stuff during the atium shortage post-Final Empire. Theoretically.

13 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Which is interesting, considering "must be refined"....

Yeah, it is.

I suppose they already knew what the "lower metals" did, seeing as they were used for the known Hemalurgic constructs of the time. Gold was probably also known, or at least easier to figure out once they got their hands on Feruchemists. 

I could see Rashek having sussed out all the mundane metals during his Ascension, when he figured out his constructs.

The "lower metals" that steal powers also steal within their quadrant, so it'd be easy to assume that the "higher metals" would steal things related to themselves.

But who knows how all that experimenting went, honestly.

13 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I don't think so. Just Mistborn like Vin and Elend.

Hrr, darn.

13 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Though, the fact a younger Breath does make a Returned feel noticeably better than an old one does shows it doesn't not have an effect on them, either...

Hmm, that does seem to imply that they incorporate it somehow. Now, if Vasher would be kind enough to tell us how Stormlight feels. (I'd hazard similar to a young Breath, from sheer energetic-ness, but a different "flavour." And Lifelight might be even better, judging by what it allegedly does to plants.)

13 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

This is a really weird question, now.

Isn't it just? :D

13 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Huh, interesting connection.

Mhm, makes one wonder how many systems are actually on a spectrum.

IMO, Allomancy is, with the tipping points being trace metals, metal in people and " My God, it's full of stars." Possibly in that order.

14 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:
Quote

EarthRester

In Warbreaker, the closer an inanimate object is to a humanoid shape, the easier it is to awaken it.

Hypothetically, say a race of sentient quadrupedal canines had access to BioChromatic Breath. Would they have an easier time awakening objects if they were closer to a canine shape, or is the rule still that it needs to be more humanoid?

Brandon Sanderson

Closer to canine.

/r/books AMA 2015 (Aug. 23, 2015)

So it seems like it works best if it's similar to the Awakener.

Huh, neat.

14 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Perhaps because "rekeying" to match the object requires less of a change? Or perhaps because the Connection between the Awakener and object is stronger and so not as much power is needed to forge the pathway between the two?

Hmm, given that this kind of Awakening doesn't permanently stick the Breath to something, it's still keyex to the Awakener.

And given that canine would have an easier time with canine-shaped things.

(Sidenote, something something kandra.)

The closer to the Awakener something is, the easier it is for the Breath to inhabit.

It's probably in a similar way to how Soulcasting air into a solid is hard.

The closer to "you" something is, the easier it is to tell it to be "you."

Something like that.

14 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Light (Stormlight and Lifelight, anyway, though not Voidlight, because for some Ado-forsaken reason Lifelight is exactly the same emotionally as Stormlight, down to being "a storm in her veins") really likes acting and doing and storming, which (for Stormlight) makes sense if it comes from, well, the Storm.

Yeah.

It's an explosive energy that wants to "do" where Breath wants to "be."

14 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

for some Ado-forsaken reason Lifelight is exactly the same emotionally as Stormlight, down to being "a storm in her veins"

I could see wanting to be "life" translating to motion and doing and in general things that make people feel "alive." No explanation for it feeling stormy though, other than there just being a lot of Investiture that wants to "do."

14 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Which one, out of curiosity?

This one, spilered for irrelevance to the current discussion:

Spoiler
Quote

EHyde

As Lift's spren refers to the Nightwatcher as Mother, right...

Brandon Sanderson

He definitely calls somebody a mother. The implication in the text is that it's the Nightwatcher.

EHyde

Certainly, so I'm just going to run with that right now. So the question that I'm asking is, is surgebinding in general a melding of Honor and Odium, a la feruchemy being in some sense not directly derivative of Ruin and Preservation?

Brandon Sanderson

It is...Honor and Cultivation is what you mean?

EHyde

Yes.

Brandon Sanderson

There are spren of all three Shards, and those spren can work within the bounds of the magic that has already been set up on Roshar.

EHyde

What Shard are Cryptics associated with?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

Emphasis mine.

 

14 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

It's mostly a combination of a few of them.

Neat. Those sound quite similar to what I speculated. I'll take that as a win.

14 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

So they almost seem to be incredibly weak Cognitive Shadows, perhaps even halfway between a Cognitive Shadow of the old person and a completely new spren.

I like that interpretation.

14 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Slaughter and Despair, so many things seem to be way more of a gradient than we'd previously thought...

And I am so here for it! :D

I love the feeling of discovery when these things happen.

(OT: of all the things to pique my interest in Aether of Night, heh.)

14 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Might have to do with the way Breath seems to attach itself in a more Spiritual way, while Stormlight seems to reside more in the Physical?

Hmm, maybe.

Then again, it does just seem more "clingy," like Voidlight. Actually, the Fused seem to have quite the similarity to Awakeners. The shanay-im don't consume their Light to fly, for one. It's like the self-directed version of their power acts like a Heightening, in a way. It's just a passive benefit.

Though it doesn't line up perfectly, as the Heightenings don't really grant active powers.

Then again, there's this WoB:

Quote

vandar10

Could someone with enough Breaths use part of them to heal himself without the help of a Returned?? Could the God King have healed himself without Lightsong with enough knowledge?

Brandon Sanderson

The nature of the Warbreaker magic is tied to the shard of Endowment, which is about giving. There are, therefore, things you cannot do for yourself.

RobotAztec

For healing can Big Breaths heal only one person at a time or can you heal a bunch of people at once?(as long as they are not yourself)?

Brandon Sanderson

Legends say you can heal many.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 8, 2015)

It might just be the nature of the power involved, rather than a hard limitation.

14 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

That's a good point too, Stormlight seems to love trying to escape, while Breath seems to latch on and integrate itself.

Yeah, Breath wants to make things more alive, it would seem. 

14 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Huh, never considered that. Yeah, nice one.

Why, thank you.

Yeah, I hadn't thought of that before either. Sometimes these things just click into place.

14 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Makes sense to me.

Oh gosh, all of Surgebinding can be reduced like that, can't it?

"You are one," "down is that way," "you are not one," "you are slippery," "biology happens at this pace," "waveforms are here," "you are this," "this is there," "you are pliable" and "you are stiff" or something like that.

15 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Otoh, the Spiritual is... pretty weird on its own, really. So maybe? But maybe not? Or maybe sorta both? Idek...

The way the Realms relate with each other is weird.

Fair enough.

15 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I'm guessing they'll dig more into things in Era 3 and the back half, but probably not truly hit it for a while. I imagine it'll be important in Dragonsteel, at the very least, though.

Yeah, sounds pretty reasonable.

 

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