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Is "Physical Adhesion" even a thing?


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On 2021-10-13 at 5:57 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I think Connection affecting other Realms is a bit different from specifically having Connection tying you to the Realm itself (Syl mentions if she goes too far from Kal, her Connection to the Physical Realm fades). 

Ah, I misunderstood then.

I suppose Syl and Kalak as Cognitive beings of various flavours have no natural Connection to the Physical and must somehow leapfrog it.

I'd say it's similar to a Cognitive Shadow typically being rooted to their system, undo the Connection and they might get sucked into the Cognitive automatically, probably by the same underlying mechanic that drags the Cognitive aspect into the Cognitive on death, no valid Connection to the Physical and all.

On 2021-10-13 at 5:57 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

That was my first thought, but the whole thing's weird enough I've given up on fully understanding it lol

(Oh yeah, and it stops fabrials as well, iirc, which feels even weirder to me... it's all complicated.)

Yeah, fair.

Yep, messes with fabrials too. Personally I think that's an outgrowth of it suppressing Light, rather than a separate function.

On 2021-10-13 at 5:57 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I'm not sure if I agree with this bit, but I could see the purpose (Intent, you might say) of the spren having some relevance to what they can do even beyond Surges, true. 

I make that assumption based on Urithiru being basically the USS Enterprise by way of Minas Tirith.

It's a magical "smart city" with a central intelligence running it. Granting that intelligence access to more functions would help it do its job.

For instance some doorways run off Cohesion, IIRC, and it makes more sense to me if that is enabled by the Sibling and not an auxiliary fabrial. It makes sense if the floorplan was laid out to start with, rather than being significantly expanded later, especially if the Sibling is normally able to see/be the whole Tower.

I'm possibly mistaken about all Surges, but I do think that they can manipulate more Surges than normal in some capacity.

On 2021-10-13 at 5:57 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

That would be wild.

And in the case of Division, possibly a war crime.

On 2021-10-13 at 5:57 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Then again, Ishar thinks he can "reset" it on his own...

To me it makes sense to be able to manipulate an extant thing without being able to create said thing.

On 2021-10-13 at 5:57 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I think the Honorblades are capable of drawing through far more power than we tend to assume, though Honor probably used to keep them limited most of the time when he was alive to prevent Ashyn 2.0.

Hmm, these assumptions make a lot of sense.

I suppose if he unthrottled Ishar's Blade temporarily that could work.

Heh, to sort of echo your own sentiment, Heralds do be scary.

On 2021-10-13 at 5:57 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

But ultimately they are pieces of Honor himself that grant the bearer direct access to his essence (I think the wording was something like that), so I can see them getting pretty crazy. 

That wording sounds familiar, yes.

Yeah, they are probably way more powerful than we've seen thus far...

I also hadn't considered the implication of Honor's limits on Surgebinding in relation to the Honorblades before.

"You could be a Windrunner unoathed... and more," indeed.

On 2021-10-13 at 5:57 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Though if Szeth thinks Abrasion is a Lashing... :D

Fair, fair.

So we'll have Full Lashing, Reverse Lashing, Basic Lashing, Sticky Lashing, Slicky Lashing... :P

On 2021-10-13 at 5:57 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Hey if Lightweavers can have a gazillion passive effects so can Windrunners :lol:

Do they though? I thought it was simply mnemonics manifesting differently in different people.

On 2021-10-13 at 5:57 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I think it's plausible that honorspren sort of being windspren influences the way the power can manifest, in addition to power levels. Just spitballing, though, and that doesn't answer everything either way.

Perception helps channel/interpret the power, to be fair, so the idea that windspren-ish would give wind-ish abilities makes a degree of sense.

Does that mean that Dalinar could create shockwaves, a sort of mini-stormwall, if you will? :ph34r:

(Makes sense as Adhesion already helps Windrunners shape the air and Tension presumably makes things "hard." Works in my head anyway, even if I don't find it a realistic power as such.)

 

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7 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

For instance some doorways run off Cohesion, IIRC

Skimming back, I think they just move open. Interestingly, they also work fine when using Stormlight even when the suppressor is on, which makes sense if it's part of the Sibling... but the forcefield fabrial does the same and is definitely something added after the fact. Oh jeez.

7 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

it makes more sense to me if that is enabled by the Sibling and not an auxiliary fabrial. It makes sense if the floorplan was laid out to start with, rather than being significantly expanded later, especially if the Sibling is normally able to see/be the whole Tower.

Agreed, yeah.

7 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I'm possibly mistaken about all Surges, but I do think that they can manipulate more Surges than normal in some capacity.

Honestly I just don't think it needs to all be Surges in the first place, any more than a painrial or a conjoiner is functioning via Surge manipulation. I think it can just be looser than that, but most spren don't have enough power/control over that power to use it more flexibly than messing with the concepts they embody.

7 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

To me it makes sense to be able to manipulate an extant thing without being able to create said thing.

That's fair.

7 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

"You could be a Windrunner unoathed... and more," indeed.

Man I forgot all about that quote. Definitely makes the Honorblades sound super scary.

7 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

So we'll have Full Lashing, Reverse Lashing, Basic Lashing, Sticky Lashing, Slicky Lashing... :P

Don't forget Division, aka the UnLashing!

7 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Do they though? I thought it was simply mnemonics manifesting differently in different people.

They also have that weird mood-boosting effect Shallan and Tien both have, though I suppose that might not be a resonance and just be passive Transformation, or something.

7 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Does that mean that Dalinar could create shockwaves, a sort of mini-stormwall, if you will? :ph34r:

(Makes sense as Adhesion already helps Windrunners shape the air and Tension presumably makes things "hard." Works in my head anyway, even if I don't find it a realistic power as such.)

Honestly could be, though now that you mention that I realize the Stormfather is very air-related too, so the wind reason doesn't work well for why Dalinar can't do it :lol:

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On 2021-10-18 at 6:40 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Skimming back, I think they just move open. Interestingly, they also work fine when using Stormlight even when the suppressor is on, which makes sense if it's part of the Sibling...

Huh, maybe I just got that impression from them finding rooms seeming to have no way in other than little holes in the walls.

Now I'm wondering what the mechanism for the doors is. Are the walls hollow? What translates Light into motion? Is the type of gem relevant? Why is there a gem in the first place?

On 2021-10-18 at 6:40 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

but the forcefield fabrial does the same and is definitely something added after the fact. Oh jeez.

Oh gosh, that thing...

I think it has to have Adhesion as a component. We know it's a derivation of Transformation, sure, but Melishi is credited for it.

If it's a Bondsmith fabrial that possibly explains why it could keep functioning.

My guess would be that it derives from the Bondsmith-Soulcasting interaction, the same way that the Google Roshar map is from the Bondsmith-Lightweaving interaction.

It also definitely doesn't do standard Soulcasting, what with the sustained half-transformation.

I think its function is fairly simple, the sapphire is providing the template for what to affect, the glass orb providing the basis for what to make.

How it actually achieves the half-transformation is however unknown.

There's also the fact that it wasn't on when the Tower was found, even though one of the nodes was exposed to the storm.

That might of course have something to do with the nodes being connected to the Sibling's heart and thus resisting infusion like the heart did, until they allowed it to happen.

That of course opens its own can of worms, why are the nodes connected to the heart but the garnet veins not?

Argh...

On 2021-10-18 at 6:40 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Honestly I just don't think it needs to all be Surges in the first place, any more than a painrial or a conjoiner is functioning via Surge manipulation.

Ah, there I fundamentally disagree. I think that, probably barring the Old Magic, every Rosharan Arcanum is a manifestation of the Surges.

Singer Forms, Regal powers, fabrials, everything is a manifestation of the Surges, in some cases just highly specialised or restricted.

I don't know yet what Surges are used to do what in every case, but I can't imagine that the underlying system isn't the Surges.

On 2021-10-18 at 6:40 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I think it can just be looser than that, but most spren don't have enough power/control over that power to use it more flexibly than messing with the concepts they embody.

I suppose you could be right. It doesn't work with the framework I currently use to undertstand this, but my framework may of course be wrong.

On 2021-10-18 at 6:40 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Man I forgot all about that quote. Definitely makes the Honorblades sound super scary.

It's one of those that's just stuck in my head, personally.

Yeah, we've probably not seen the full potential of the Honorblades yet, especially if Honor was keeping them in check.

Possibly barring Ishar's Blade, but the only thing we know for sure is something exceeding past Bondsmiths is the Perpendicularity. (I'd argue we have no idea how the embodied spren stuff was done, nor if it would be beyond Bondsmiths in general in a post-Honor world, if it was even done via Bondsmithing in the first place.)

There's also the bit where the Stormfather remarks, I think in that same conversation about Jezrien's Blade, that long ago the powers bore no name, they were simply him, or something like that.

Which might be another point to "the Heralds must have been quite something."

On 2021-10-18 at 6:40 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Don't forget Division, aka the UnLashing!

Heh

On 2021-10-18 at 6:40 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

They also have that weird mood-boosting effect Shallan and Tien both have, though I suppose that might not be a resonance and just be passive Transformation, or something.

Oh yeah!

Mechanically it's probably the same thing as what Shallan did when she aquired her entourage. Pattern sees it as Transformation, but then again he sees having a body as using a corpse to do things...

On 2021-10-18 at 6:40 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Honestly could be, though now that you mention that I realize the Stormfather is very air-related too, so the wind reason doesn't work well for why Dalinar can't do it :lol:

To be fair, the Stormfather has rather strong opinions on making the wind not blow.

 

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1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Huh, maybe I just got that impression from them finding rooms seeming to have no way in other than little holes in the walls.

Iirc that was mostly that a lot of things they weren't aware were doors because they close so neatly. But that might also be my brain making things up lol.

1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Now I'm wondering what the mechanism for the doors is. Are the walls hollow? What translates Light into motion? Is the type of gem relevant? Why is there a gem in the first place?

Yeah... lot of questions and I have no clue, tbh, lmao. It's a really interesting thing but also most of the characters were a bit too busy to explain

1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

If it's a Bondsmith fabrial that possibly explains why it could keep functioning.

But if it's not of the Sibling, what spren would it be of, that would be Bondsmith-y?

1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

My guess would be that it derives from the Bondsmith-Soulcasting interaction, the same way that the Google Roshar map is from the Bondsmith-Lightweaving interaction.

Could be. I've been inclined to think of it as just a specialized Soulcasting, but that sounds plausible too.

1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

That of course opens its own can of worms, why are the nodes connected to the heart but the garnet veins not?

Hmm, I wonder if it's just that the veins can't be infused well for mutters and waves hands vaguely some reason. Because I can't imagine the "veins" aren't connected to the "heart".

1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

There's also the fact that it wasn't on when the Tower was found, even though one of the nodes was exposed to the storm.

Hm, yeah, that's really weird.

1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Ah, there I fundamentally disagree. I think that, probably barring the Old Magic, every Rosharan Arcanum is a manifestation of the Surges.

Singer Forms, Regal powers, fabrials, everything is a manifestation of the Surges, in some cases just highly specialised or restricted.

I don't know yet what Surges are used to do what in every case, but I can't imagine that the underlying system isn't the Surges.

Oh I definitely strongly disagree. Radiants are Surge-based because the spren they bond are the Surges, I don't see why spren that represent different concepts would be limited to that system. We know from WoBs that if there were spren on Earth, the powers would be different (for example, spren that grant electromagnetism), because they're based on perception and not inherent, and so I don't things that are unrelated concepts would have to tie into those ten at all.

1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

(I'd argue we have no idea how the embodied spren stuff was done, nor if it would be beyond Bondsmiths in general in a post-Honor world, if it was even done via Bondsmithing in the first place.)

Agreed, we've not got much of a clue to be able to say. My current theory is that it involves tying a spren to a body (just like stapling a Cognitive Shadow to one) and then hitting it with a massive burst of healing to match its new Cognitive and Spiritual ideals, but that's entirely a guess.

1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

There's also the bit where the Stormfather remarks, I think in that same conversation about Jezrien's Blade, that long ago the powers bore no name, they were simply him, or something like that.

Which might be another point to "the Heralds must have been quite something."

Yep, which is interesting, since "Bondsmith" and "Lightweaver" existed prior and are broader Cosmere terms (at least the latter is broader). I wonder which of the order names are preexisting and which are new.

1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Mechanically it's probably the same thing as what Shallan did when she aquired her entourage.

Agreed.

1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Pattern sees it as Transformation, but then again he sees having a body as using a corpse to do things...

Wonder if the Lightweaver aura is to either Soulcasting or the Memories as "strength of squires" is to a Reverse Lashing. Kind of a weird passive more solely Cognitive and Spiritual version.

1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

To be fair, the Stormfather has rather strong opinions on making the wind not blow.

Lmao true

 

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14 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Iirc that was mostly that a lot of things they weren't aware were doors because they close so neatly. But that might also be my brain making things up lol.

Yeah, I can see that going either way.

14 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Yeah... lot of questions and I have no clue, tbh, lmao. It's a really interesting thing but also most of the characters were a bit too busy to explain

How inconsiderate of them not to prioritise expositing over solving their problems. :P

19 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

But if it's not of the Sibling, what spren would it be of, that would be Bondsmith-y?

Considering its apparent direct connection to the heart and being installed by a Bondsmith, possibly it leapfrogs Adhesion off the Sibling or Melishi did some Bondsmithing to it.

It could also simply be a wind- or gloryspren hooked into the Sibling. Along with something to provide Transformation.

Hrm...

This thing is complicated.

19 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Oh I definitely strongly disagree. Radiants are Surge-based because the spren they bond are the Surges, I don't see why spren that represent different concepts would be limited to that system. We know from WoBs that if there were spren on Earth, the powers would be different (for example, spren that grant electromagnetism), because they're based on perception and not inherent, and so I don't things that are unrelated concepts would have to tie into those ten at all.

Ah.

Partly I come from a place of wishing to reduce complexity. It makes more sense to me if there are fewer moving parts.

For the analogy of "Earth spren," I'd assume that anything they could do would be a derivation of the fundamental forces.

To me condensing things down is incredibly satisfying, as such I reach for explanations that use known elements rather than assume unknown elements.

I prefer the simplest possible explanation that still covers everything.

To me saying that Rosharan magic isn't Surge-based is akin to saying that Scadrian magic isn't the Metallic Arts.

I also wonder why there aren't Radiants that have access to other powers if they exist within the system in that case.

If the speculation from my thread a while back is anywhere near correct on the nature of Voidbinding, then it's even stranger that it too seems to fall along the lines of the Surges, which is also supported by the Voidbinding chart, IMO.

Eh, I hope I don't come off as stand-offish or unwilling to accept differing viewpoints, I don't wish to be rude, just explain myself.

Respectfully disagree, basically. It's interesting encountering such a different interpretation.

On 2021-10-20 at 9:33 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Hmm, I wonder if it's just that the veins can't be infused well for mutters and waves hands vaguely some reason. Because I can't imagine the "veins" aren't connected to the "heart".

The one thing I can think of is that the veins wouldn't carry Light back to the heart, but holy cow this stuff is weird.

It's also possible that it works on a principle similar to induction, letting the heart and the veins be separate, but that sounds like such a weak post facto justification. I suppose someone will have to ask Brandon, because I trust that someone would have asked during the writing process and that Brandon builds his systems well enough to explain this adequately.

On 2021-10-20 at 9:33 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Agreed, we've not got much of a clue to be able to say. My current theory is that it involves tying a spren to a body (just like stapling a Cognitive Shadow to one) and then hitting it with a massive burst of healing to match its new Cognitive and Spiritual ideals, but that's entirely a guess.

Hmm, I'm not sure if that would work, but I could see it being viable.

I think some of the notes might contradict that idea, but then again they were at best written under the guidance of an absolute madman.

On 2021-10-20 at 9:33 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Yep, which is interesting, since "Bondsmith" and "Lightweaver" existed prior and are broader Cosmere terms (at least the latter is broader). I wonder which of the order names are preexisting and which are new.

Mmyep

I think most of them are probably Rosharan/Ashynite terms, but who knows.

On 2021-10-20 at 9:33 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Wonder if the Lightweaver aura is to either Soulcasting or the Memories as "strength of squires" is to a Reverse Lashing. Kind of a weird passive more solely Cognitive and Spiritual version.

I'm not sure how passive it is, I don't think that we've really seen it happen when a Lightweaver hasn't been trying to do something.

The Memories are the equivalent to strength of Squires, no?

That implies that Windrunners should have an analogous effect, if I were to guess, probably something about leading people.

Encouraging people to follow to the Lightweavers encouraging people to be better. Cognitive outgrowth of either the secondary Surge of the order or both/the hybrid.

 

Heh, I feel like I might have contributed to this thread derailing a bit...

It's hard to not ask follow-up questions in interesting discussions.

 

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39 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

How inconsiderate of them not to prioritise expositing over solving their problems. :P

ikr, SMH :angry:

46 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

It could also simply be a wind- or gloryspren hooked into the Sibling. Along with something to provide Transformation.

Hm, could be. We admittedly don't quite know what Soulcaster spren really are yet.

46 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Hrm...

This thing is complicated.

Preeeettty much lol.

47 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Partly I come from a place of wishing to reduce complexity. It makes more sense to me if there are fewer moving parts.

I do get that, I just disagree that connecting it all to Surges reduces the complexity. There's dozens or hundreds of kinds of spren, and trying to narrow down everything to the Surges just feels... odd, to me, though I can understand the desire. But why/how would painspren or musicspren or fermentationspren or gloomspren or awespren or anxietyspren etc even be Surges? They're chunks of Investiture coming to life based on perception of things, it's a lot looser a basis than some of the other planets.

52 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

To me saying that Rosharan magic isn't Surge-based is akin to saying that Scadrian magic isn't the Metallic Arts.

I disagree for the reason above. The Scadrian magic is inherently metal-based, every single manifestation of it, and we've seen no reason to think otherwise (and the effects of the metal are based on Cosmere-wide principles, not solely a Scadrian magical construct). But with Roshar, we know that this isn't inherent, if people perceived things differently then the Surges and spren would be different, it's not some fundamental thing to the Cosmere or even the system. So I don't think the concepts that come alive are limited to the Surges, personally.

56 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I also wonder why there aren't Radiants that have access to other powers if they exist within the system in that case.

This question's raised either way, tbf. Regal powers aren't one-to-one with orders (there's more of them), pretty much any spren can be used in a fabrial, plenty of spren can make singer forms or bond to other Rosharan lifeforms, and yet only ten types can form the orders of Knights Radiant. I think it relates mainly to the fact that these are the types of spren that, for whatever reason, Honor and Cultivation decided to uplift to sapience.

We know it is hypothetically possible you could get different orders from other kinds of spren, but at the moment isn't something that can happen, which I feel is because this deeper (imo) kind of bond that allows a human or singer to directly manipulate the concept the spren represents is something that requires both an intelligent spren that can choose to make such a bond, and a spren that has enough Investiture to actually do much (a Shardblade, which is one spren, is harder to push on than Plate, which is a dozen or so spren, so seemingly they are a lot more Invested than their "cousins"). Which I also feel is the reason why bonding Syl lets Kaladin use the power, but bonding the windspren only lets him tell them to do things, despite being associated with the same Surges, so presumably the power being Surge-based isn't the distinction there.

1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

If the speculation from my thread a while back is anywhere near correct on the nature of Voidbinding, then it's even stranger that it too seems to fall along the lines of the Surges, which is also supported by the Voidbinding chart, IMO.

Depends on what exactly Voidbinding is or where it comes from, tbf.

1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Eh, I hope I don't come off as stand-offish or unwilling to accept differing viewpoints, I don't wish to be rude, just explain myself.

Nah I get it, it's an interesting discussion!

1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I suppose someone will have to ask Brandon, because I trust that someone would have asked during the writing process and that Brandon builds his systems well enough to explain this adequately.

Yeah, I doubt the answer is just "Raboniel forgot" or something lmao, there's probably a solid reason.

1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I think some of the notes might contradict that idea, but then again they were at best written under the guidance of an absolute madman.

Yeah it's iffy with the notes, it's more a case of me going "what could you do with powers Ishar can access (his Bondsmith powers, plus maybe some Soulcaster or Regrowth fabrials like Nale has) to achieve such an effect?" than "what did Ishar specifically do?", because I can't come up with much that does fit with the notes.

1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I'm not sure how passive it is, I don't think that we've really seen it happen when a Lightweaver hasn't been trying to do something.

The Memories are the equivalent to strength of Squires, no?

Maybe, but the Memories are something Shallan has to actively intentionally take and draw upon, while the mood effect seems to be more just something that they kind of often unintentionally make people nearby feel. So to me the former feels closer to an intentional use of magic (if not well-understood), while the latter feels more like a sort of effect that just happens.

1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

the secondary Surge of the order

Eh... I'm definitely not convinced this is actually a thing besides on a narrative level, especially after RoW where we learn one of the biggest pieces (Jasnah's Soulcasting vs Shallan's) is just Shallan not being good at it and Jasnah being really good at it, and the other Lightweavers do just fine.

1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

It's hard to not ask follow-up questions in interesting discussions.

Yeah...

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11 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Hm, could be. We admittedly don't quite know what Soulcaster spren really are yet.

Yeah, vague humanoid isn't much to go on.

11 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I do get that, I just disagree that connecting it all to Surges reduces the complexity. There's dozens or hundreds of kinds of spren, and trying to narrow down everything to the Surges just feels... odd, to me, though I can understand the desire.

Fair enough, to me it makes sense if everything is an outgrowth of few base principles.

So I see everything as more or less specialised expressions of the Surges.

13 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

But why/how would painspren or musicspren or fermentationspren or gloomspren or awespren or anxietyspren etc even be Surges?

Hm, music- and fermentationspren are probably of Illumination and Progression, respectively.

Illumination because I suspect that they are actually "rhythmspren," which makes sense for them being attracted to Ryshadium and in any case Illumination is waveforms, including sound.

Progression because it's a biological process, though I guess a Rosharan might see it as Transformation.

Though I don't think that the kind of spren has to be directly relevant to exactly what the spren do as fabrials.

I also don't think that the Nahel spren are direct personifications of the Surges.

All spren are of the Surges to me, as are the Regal abilities.

In the latter case the greater number of Regal forms than orders of Radiant is simple to explain, Envoyform grants Adhesion, but not the ability to stick people to walls. Just like fabrials, the expression of the Surge is simply limited and/or fine-tuned.

Oh, and I don't know what Surge(s) the emotionspren belong to, but it makes more sense to me if everything grew out of the fundamentals of Roshar rather than being a wholly separate thing.

19 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I disagree for the reason above. The Scadrian magic is inherently metal-based, every single manifestation of it, and we've seen no reason to think otherwise

And to me there's no reason to believe that Rosharan magic isn't categorically Surge-based (other than the possible exception of the Old Magic.)

They see the Surges as the fundamental things that make the universe move, does it not make sense that the personified phenomena would be a sub-category of that?

Quote

"We will have to see," Jasnah said. "It comes down to the nature of spren. What has your research revealed?"

With Jasnah, everything seemed to be a test of scholaeship. Shallan smothered a sigh. This was why she had come with Jasnah, rather than returning to her home. Still, she did wish that sometimes Jasnah would just tell her answers rather than making her work so hard to find them. "Alai says that the spren are fragments of the powers of creation. A lot of the scholars I read agreed with that."

"It is one opinion. What does it mean?"

Shallan tried not to let herself be distracted by the spren on the floor. "There are ten fundamental Surges—forces—by which the world works. Gravitation, pressure, transformation. That sort of thing. You told me spren are fragments of the Cognitive Realm that have somehow gained sentience because of human attention. Well, it stands to reason that they were something before. Like . . . like a painting was a canvas before being given life "

"Life?" Jasnah said, raising an eyebrow.

"Of course," Shallan said. Paintings lived. Not lived like a person or a spren, but . . . well, it was obvious to her at least. "So, before the spren were alive, they were something. Power. Energy. Zen-daughter-Vath sketched tiny spren she found sometimes around heavy objects. Gravitationspren—fragments of the power or force that causes things to fall. It stands to reason that every spren was a power before it was a spren. Really, you can divide spren into two general groups. Those that respond to emotions and those that respond to forces like fire or wind pressure." 

-Words of Radiance, chapter 3

If each spren is a power given life and power and force can be used interchangably, then each spren is a particular manifestation of the Surges given life, as the Surges are the Rosharan idea of fundamental forces.

19 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

This question's raised either way, tbf. Regal powers aren't one-to-one with orders (there's more of them), pretty much any spren can be used in a fabrial, plenty of spren can make singer forms or bond to other Rosharan lifeforms, and yet only ten types can form the orders of Knights Radiant.

Ah, here I can bring up something that I think is a fundamental of Roshar, if it goes in a fabrial, it goes in a gemheart, it goes in a Nahel bond, theoretically.

Anything that has a valid output in one can theoretically go in the others, though good luck making Stormfatherform happen.

I also feel like we haven't been using correct terminology here, which to be fair I am guilty of starting the discussion on.

Ten types can make Radiants, how many can make Surgebinders?

The Radiants are an artificial category, ten kinds of Surgebinder, organised by Ishar and having their power tied to a code of conduct.

Presumably the oath system is something imposed after spren started bonding humans.

There are also a couple of important questions to ask: is Renarin a Radiant and are Enligthened spren the same as their non-Enlightened counterparts?

If Renarin is a Radiant and Enlightened spren not the same, then there are more types of spren that can make Radiants, at at least eleven.

Quote

Shallan was open to this thing. Laid bare, her skin split, her soul gaping wide. It could get in.

It was also open to her.

She felt its confused fascination with humankind. It remembered men—an innate understanding, much as newborn mink kits innately knew to fear the skyeel. This spren was not completely aware, not completely cognizant. She was a creation of instinct and alien curiosity, drawn to violence and pain like scavangers to the scent of blood.

Shallan knew Re-Shephir at the same time as the thing came to know her. The spren tugged and prodded at Shallan's bond with Pattern, seeking to rip it free and insert herself instead.

-Oathbringer, chapter 30

Quote

"Passion," Odium said. "There is great Passion here."

Venli felt cold.

"I've prepared these men for decades," Odium said. "Men who want nothing so much as something to break, to gain vengance against the one who killed their highprince. Let the singers watch and learn. I've prepared a different army to fight for us today."

Ahead of them on the battlefield, the human ranks slumped, their banner wavering. A man in glittering Shardplate, sitting upon a white horse, led them.

Deep within his helmet, something started glowing red.

The dark spren flew toward the men, finding welcoming bodies and willing flesh. The red mist made them lust, made their minds open. And the spren, then, bonded to the men, slipping into those open souls.

"Master, you have learned to inhabit humans?" Turash said to Subservience.

"Spren have always been able to bond with them, Turash," Odium said. "It merely requires the right mindset and the right environment."

-Oathbringer, chapter 115

Here we have two examples of non-True spren attempting to bond humans (and succeeding in the latter case) as well as Rayse saying that spren have always been able to do it.

This makes me think that the reason that only ten kinds of spren make modern Surgebinders is the same as why True spren didn't bond singers. The organisation of the Radiants was presumably aided by Honor, and he could have imposed rules upon the spren themselves, like that only these varieties of spren could bond humans and that they couldn't bond singers.

As a sidenote, I have a suspicion that Surgebinding isn't Honor's magic system exactly, but that the Nahel bond is more so Honor's thing, though this is not something that is integral to my speculatuon.

In any case I do think that the Nahel bond is of Honor, it does work pretty well with Honor's Truest Surge, the Surge of binding and oaths, IMO.

So just like Honor placed restrictions on Surgebinding, he might have restricted the Nahel bond, which might explain why Turash was suprised at Nergaoul bonding the Sadeas army. Honor might have been able to prevent it in the past.

On 2021-10-21 at 11:27 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

We know it is hypothetically possible you could get different orders from other kinds of spren, but at the moment isn't something that can happen, which I feel is because this deeper (imo) kind of bond that allows a human or singer to directly manipulate the concept the spren represents is something that requires both an intelligent spren that can choose to make such a bond, and a spren that has enough Investiture to actually do much (a Shardblade, which is one spren, is harder to push on than Plate, which is a dozen or so spren, so seemingly they are a lot more Invested than their "cousins").

Hmm, to expand on what I wrote above, it's also possible that Honor placed restrictions on the Radiant bond specifically, as clearly he couldn't prevent the singers bonding Voidspren. 

I do agree that a proper Radiant bond (as opposed to the general Nahel bond) functionally, or nearly so, requires a sapient spren, as they need to be able to judge the oaths.

Then again, I assume that being bonded to humans might cause greater sapience to eventually manifest, like the Stormfather gaining a less rigid perspective on things.

I also wonder about the idea of the True spren representing the concept of the Surges they grant.

I'm not sure that's true, but I don't think we have enough information to tell one way or the other yet.

And I will agree that a theoretical bond with a windspren will probably not grant you power at the level of a Windrunner at the first oath, but I do think it would grant the same Surges.

On 2021-10-21 at 11:27 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Depends on what exactly Voidbinding is or where it comes from, tbf.

Well, Renarin probably does it, though in a roundabout way. The fact that it's through the Radiant bond just lets him fuel it with Stormlight and get a Blade, etc.

I also feel like the Voidbinding chart should not use twisted versions of the Surge glyphs if the Surges weren't involved or the powers didn't look like expressions of the Surges.

The impression I get is not that these are representations of something wholly alien, but something that's familiar but off in some way. If it didn't look like the Surges there would be entirely different glyphs, IMO.

On 2021-10-21 at 11:27 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Nah I get it, it's an interesting discussion!

Phew, that's good to hear. :)

On 2021-10-21 at 11:27 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Yeah it's iffy with the notes, it's more a case of me going "what could you do with powers Ishar can access (his Bondsmith powers, plus maybe some Soulcaster or Regrowth fabrials like Nale has) to achieve such an effect?" than "what did Ishar specifically do?", because I can't come up with much that does fit with the notes.

Yeah, fair fair.

On 2021-10-21 at 11:27 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Maybe, but the Memories are something Shallan has to actively intentionally take and draw upon, while the mood effect seems to be more just something that they kind of often unintentionally make people nearby feel. So to me the former feels closer to an intentional use of magic (if not well-understood), while the latter feels more like a sort of effect that just happens.

Fair enough.

Turns out Radiants are complicated.

On 2021-10-21 at 11:27 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Eh... I'm definitely not convinced this is actually a thing besides on a narrative level, especially after RoW where we learn one of the biggest pieces (Jasnah's Soulcasting vs Shallan's) is just Shallan not being good at it and Jasnah being really good at it, and the other Lightweavers do just fine.

Hmm, maybe.

 

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On 10/9/2021 at 6:19 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

TL;DR: Pretty sure that "Physical Adhesion" is just an extremely limited form of Spiritual Adhesion, as opposed to a separate manifestation of the concept.


(This theory's a lot less complex than many of my others, so it's gonna be way shorter and less formatted.)

Rereading the Ars Arcanum, a couple things stood out to me about Adhesion:

If it's just a Physical binding, it's odd it's so completely unbreakable, and "binding objects together as if they were one" certainly doesn't sound very Physical when put next to the other powers of Adhesion. In fact, it sounds somewhat similar to what Ishar did:

Now, obviously the effects are not exactly the same—the Pursuer doesn't get all his Voidlight drained out, and neither does Lopen. But it might be a version of the same thing with a weaker Connection, or perhaps making them "as one" in a different way than directly making the surface part of the target's body.

But yeah, after what we saw with Ishar and the emphasis in RoW of Adhesion as a much more spiritual force ("Honor’s Truest Surge, the Surge of Binding and Oaths"), I think that "Physical Adhesion" isn't a separate manifestation of the Surge from "Spiritual Adhesion" at all, it's just that Windrunners don't have enough raw power to manipulate the Connection in more complex or deeper ways than a quick "you, you're that now".

Perhaps it's similar to how normally Allomancers can only Push and Pull on metal, but if you chuck enough Investiture into the spiritweb via something like the Bands of Mourning, you reach the point you can see and nearly interact with the souls of objects and people, like Marasi and Wax mention? A Bondsmith spren probably has enough Investiture that when it starts to enter your spiritweb, it pushes the limits of what's possible pretty far compared to a normal sapient spren.

(None of this is particularly groundbreaking as a concept, but "Spiritual Adhesion" and "Physical Adhesion" are still distinctions I've seen thrown around and even used myself until very recently, so I think it's still worth a discussion even if it's probably happened before.)

If I understand you right you are possibly saying that in a Windrunner adhesion affects or combines the physical part of the spirit web between 2 things to bind them physically together? Whereas a Bondsmith can affect much more of the spirit web than just the physical portion and since both tension and adhesion are connections powers perhaps deeper in that aspect?

That might explain why shards which are not truly physical are unaffected by adhesion.

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On 10/12/2021 at 8:14 PM, Frustration said:

The Shin have been using them the whole time.

I never got the impression that the Shin were using them only keeping and hiding them and occasionally using them covertly so never came close to their limits. It was Zeth's training not the blade that gave him unchallenged ability. Kal was far more able than the blade.

Sorry I double posted because I came to this late and posted as I found comments I wanted to respond to.

Edited by BenduLuke
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3 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

I never got the impression that the Shin were using them only keeping and hiding them and occasionally using them covertly so never came close to their limits. It was Zeth's training not the blade that gave him unchallenged ability. Kal was far more able than the blade.

Sorry I double posted because I came to this late and posted as I found comments I wanted to respond to.

Why would they have only recently started using them?

Szeth trained with each blade they had to the point he could recognise and adapt to any of the surges.

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4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Why would they have only recently started using them?

Szeth trained with each blade they had to the point he could recognise and adapt to any of the surges.

By necessity as secret guardians of the blades they would only use them rarely and covertly so not to full potential. Even so the blades full potential has been stated as far less than actual Radiants on several occasions. I also don't recall him being trained with each blade only one after more mundane training. Perhaps in that training he trained against the various blades, but I don't recall that being the case only that he was aware that his people had them.

It is almost impossible to hide and guard something that you use regularly, or openly so it would be extremely rare that they would ever use them and then as minimally and covertly as possible.

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5 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

By necessity as secret guardians of the blades they would only use them rarely and covertly so not to full potential. Even so the blades full potential has been stated as far less than actual Radiants on several occasions. I also don't recall him being trained with each blade only one after more mundane training. Perhaps in that training he trained against the various blades, but I don't recall that being the case only that he was aware that his people had them.

He trained with all ten surges, Battle of Theylan Feilds in OB for referance.

6 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

It is almost impossible to hide and guard something that you use regularly, or openly so it would be extremely rare that they would ever use them and then as minimally and covertly as possible.

Considering Vistim the non-shin who is most familiar with their culture outside of Taravangian, hasn't even seen thier farms, it wouldn't be too difficult to keep the rest of the world from finding out.

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1 minute ago, Frustration said:

He trained with all ten surges, Battle of Theylan Feilds in OB for referance.

I stand corrected, but I don't recall that.

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Considering Vistim the non-shin who is most familiar with their culture outside of Taravangian, hasn't even seen thier farms, it wouldn't be too difficult to keep the rest of the world from finding out

Not sure what you mean by that other than they worked hard to keep them secret so again would not have used them openly or often.

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12 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Not sure what you mean by that other than they worked hard to keep them secret so again would not have used them openly or often.

Even if they blatently used the Honorblades in every major Shin city no one other than the Shin would know due to their isolationism, so there is no reason to assume that they are trying to hide the Honorblades in the first place.

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4 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Hm, music- and fermentationspren are probably of Illumination and Progression, respectively.

I guess I can see that, though I don't agree.

4 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Though I don't think that the kind of spren has to be directly relevant to exactly what the spren do as fabrials.

Oh I definitely disagree, so far all the fabrials we know are very closely tied to the thing, though sometimes in interesting ways. Painspren in fabrials can raise or lower pain levels, flamespren raise or lower heat, etc. What exactly is up with logicspren, the oddest ones, isn't fully clear (though it should be noted the timing thing isn't an effect from manifestation, just from leaking), but logic & debate -> timing is a Cosmere-wide association that appears in AonDor as well. So it does seem the concepts are intrinsically tied to their effects in some way.

5 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I also don't think that the Nahel spren are direct personifications of the Surges.

I'm mostly going off how Khriss talks about it:

Quote

The most dramatic of these is the relationship between humans and self-aware spren, which is the basis for the magic of Surgebinding. This magic has strong roots in natural physics, with the spren being personifications of the forces themselves (called Surges locally). Gravitation, the strong axial force, surface tension … these things have come alive, as have more abstract notions such as transformation and transportation.

Which sounds like the "self-aware" spren at hand are the personifications of the forces, along with how Brandon has described them as "living Surges" before, and how Wyndle speaks about the Ideals:

Quote

“There are Words,” Wyndle said. “That’s what we call them, at least. They’re more … ideas. Living ideas, with power. You have to let them into your soul. Let me into your soul.”

The way I've viewed the spren, based off these things, is that they sort of like... represent the intersections of all these concepts. On Roshar, the Surges and Essences are personified and viewed as interconnected, and so we end up with things like "Zephyr is associated with Adhesion and Gravitation, and offers protection and leadership", and by tying a large enough chunk of Investiture to this concept we end up with honorspren, a mind that is what people imagine its mind to be (filtered through Honor and Cultivation's Intents).

5 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

In the latter case the greater number of Regal forms than orders of Radiant is simple to explain, Envoyform grants Adhesion, but not the ability to stick people to walls. Just like fabrials, the expression of the Surge is simply limited and/or fine-tuned.

I wish we knew what spren envoyform was based on... lol. Going off the ones we do know (gravitationspren, which appear around heavy objects, and painspren, which appear around... well you can probably guess :P, and stormspren, which appear around lightning), it seems the forms are sort of adapting the singer towards the spren's concept (in an often more abstract way, as you'd expect from living ideas). I'd argue Regal forms are more analogous to the normal forms than to Radiants, the concepts are just... stranger when put in a person, and the spren probably more deeply integrated (going off how much Odium can influence with them). Not sure if that actually argues the point in any way, now that I reread it, though... :lol:

5 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

And to me there's no reason to believe that Rosharan magic isn't categorically Surge-based (other than the possible exception of the Old Magic.)

Lol, fair. Let me make a different point: the access to Scadrian things is all tied to metal, but the powers are not. I'd argue Light and/or spren in general are more analogous to metals than the Surges, as powers, are.

5 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

They see the Surges as the fundamental things that make the universe move, does it not make sense that the personified phenomena would be a sub-category of that?

That's fair. In that case, though, I think it's more a matter of philosophy than mechanics (though those are tightly intertwined in the Cosmere and on Roshar in particular, so perhaps that's not really a position that can exist), and more vague and complicated than a direct correlation. Like, they're Transformation etc in the way that the Metallic Arts are, if you view everything through the lens of the Surges, as opposed to being a "pure" Surge. Does that make sense or am I just rambling detatchedly? who knows lmao

5 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Ah, here I can bring up something that I think is a fundamental of Roshar, if it goes in a fabrial, it goes in a gemheart, it goes in a Nahel bond, theoretically.

I agree there, mostly. I don't think they can all plug into the Radiant bond, because I don't think the bond can get deep enough to let a person manipulate their power without hacks like how a gemheart seems to be weird and maybe tied into the soul, but I think you can get something like what we see with Plate spren (lesser spren being pulled into the Physical more strongly), which I see as the same sort of mechanic but more shallowly. (Though I'm not sure that these are all distinct categories as much as a spectrum of things Investiture can do that we're picking points out on.)

5 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

The Radiants are an artificial category, ten kinds of Surgebinder, organised by Ishar and having their power tied to a code of conduct.

Presumably the oath system is something imposed after spren started bonding humans.

Oh I definitely disagree. Well, sort of. Let me try and think of how to put this, the way I view it is clear in my mind but not really in words.

I do not think that oaths are essential, even now. I think commitment, intention, is, along with understanding. We see with characters like Lift, Venli, and Eshonai that you don't need to say anything, or even think a specific thing in the case of when the first two hit their Ideals (at least with my understanding of when Lift hit her Ideal, which is debated). What you do need is to align your intentions with the spren's Intent, and to understand the Ideal (the Stormfather's description of Connection as a bond of knowledge feels relevant here). (And the spren moves towards, the human, too, becoming more changing and varied.) I think what we see in Rhythm of War is at least conceptually similar, and maybe even mechanically the same sort of thing:

Quote

Holding the Fused’s hand, Navani felt as if she were reaching for something. Her tone changed slightly.

Raboniel responded, their two tones moving toward one another, step by step, until …

Harmony.

The rhythms snapped into alignment, a burst of chaotic notes from Raboniel—bounded by a regular, orderly pulse from Navani.

The intentions and identities (possibly capitalized, possibly not) aligning and becoming one greater whole that represents both. Which is I think why it requires both a sapient spren and sapient creature, it's something they both have to actively choose and work towards. (Interestingly, when Teft summons Phendorana at the end, it says "He felt something from Phendorana. A harmony between them.", which I feel lines up with that idea.)

The second thing is that I don't think the steps are as discrete as people think. I think instead they're the tipping points, where the bond becomes strong enough to do specific things:

  1. Properly establish the bond so it won't fade
  2. ??? because we see too few knowledgeable First Ideal Radiants for too short a time to compare
  3. Manifest the spren physically
  4. Manifest other spren their main spren is Connected to physically
  5. ???

We see in RoW with Kaladin that being close to the Ideal lets him in some ways work the same as someone who has hit it. And at the end, Teft is able to go a step further and summon Phendorana physically, with effort. And of course, there's what Brandon's said about Shallan's "1.1 steps forward, 1 step backward" thing happening a lot. So I don't think it's necessarily the case there's only five codified steps that can be taken, it's just that there's certain points most people naturally struggle with, and overcoming this strengthens this bond of intention and knowledge a significant amount and this moves it past certain tipping points where it becomes much easier to do something instead of having to struggle to push it through.

(Kaladin using the windspren in OB is imo another indication of this being looser than they tend to treat it as—he's' not Fourth Ideal yet, but can clearly do things that are traditionally considered something that belongs there.)

So I do think the oaths are an artificial construct, but less a magical addition and more just a way to help people intuitively grasp the ideas more, and a natural effect of the common stopping points + the fact that we often find putting something into words and expressing it to make commitment feel stronger and more lasting and important.

(I think the Skybreakers are the most clear case of this: I find it highly doubtful they have super oddly specific steps compared to literally every other order so far, I think it's just that this is a method they worked out that helps bring people in line with the concepts in an orderly and clear way.)

I also think that the nature of the spren, being made of Honor and Cultivation/oaths and growth, lend themselves to those kinds of things even more than already would be the case.

6 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

If Renarin is a Radiant and Enlightened spren not the same, then there are more types of spren that can make Radiants, at at least eleven.

The way I've been thinking of it, the Enlightened spren represent a similar concept, but just as Honor and Cultivation filter the concept's manifestation, so too does Odium. The Rhythms are a good example of what I mean—what is Curiosity under Honor and Cultivation becomes Craving under Odium. So I think they'll be the "same" in that they're an expression of the same base idea, but different in that it's flavoured differently.

(This may or may not be the case as well with Plate spren vs Blade spren. The former seem imo to on average line up with more wild and Cultivation-y concepts, from what we know of them, while the true spren are more orderly interpretations of the same base idea, adding more Honor into the mix. But this doesn't perfectly line up, so that may be coincidence rather than a solid pattern. Hard to tell, with how few of the cousin spren we know.)

6 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Here we have two examples of non-True spren attempting to bond humans (and succeeding in the latter case) as well as Rayse saying that spren have always been able to do it.

That actually gives me a good transition for what I was just talking about:

Quote

Over time, slowly, she’d become increasingly intrigued by the things she murdered.

Her creations had come to imitate what she saw in the world, but lacking love or affection. Like stones come alive, content to be killed or to kill with no attachment or enjoyment. No emotions beyond an overpowering curiosity, and that ephemeral attraction to violence.

Almighty above … it’s like a creationspren. Only so, so wrong.

Same basic concept of creation and curiosity, taken in a far more Odious direction, overpowering and violent.

But yeah, I agree the bond can theoretically happen, for sure, and that's good evidence.

6 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

This makes me think that the reason that only ten kinds of spren make modern Surgebinders is the same as why True spren didn't bond singers. The organisation of the Radiants was presumably aided by Honor, and he could have imposed rules upon the spren themselves, like that only these varieties of spren could bond humans and that they couldn't bond singers.

I don't agree. I think the reason they haven't bonded singers is mostly due to whatever Blended is talking about when she refers to the singers betraying them: something happened during the ancient days that drove a massive wedge between the two, and since this was before the Radiant bond was discovered...

Ashynite things in general just don't have many bonds, so I think the lack of spren bonding humans is just that. Ryshadium are super rare and are about the only other example of an Ashynite species bonding, and even then they only seem to bond one kind, most likely. The true spren were able to actively make the choice to go bond humans anyway, because of the Odium stuff, but for the others it just kinda didn't occur for whatever the reason is.

7 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

As a sidenote, I have a suspicion that Surgebinding isn't Honor's magic system exactly, but that the Nahel bond is more so Honor's thing, though this is not something that is integral to my speculatuon.

I don't think that the Rosharan magic systems are directly Shardic, personally. On Scadrial, the magic comes from having pieces of the Shards in them due to being created by those Shards (we ignore Hemalurgy because I have no idea what causes that one lmao, but Brandon's referred to "the seeds of the three Metallic Arts" being in Scadrians for that reason before), but on Roshar, it comes from the spren being in the spiritweb. So I think the magic systems are less tied to the Shards, and more to the individual spren (with the similarities arising from the similarities in composition of those spren). (I think Sel is another example of this: we know the relationship between Radiant and spren is similar to that between Elantrian and Arelon, so that situation probably comes from people in different regions getting their magics from different "spren". While those "spren" aren't sapient, they're also huge, so even a relatively shallower bond with one still grants a decent amount of power.)

7 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

In any case I do think that the Nahel bond is of Honor, it does work pretty well with Honor's Truest Surge, the Surge of binding and oaths, IMO.

As mentioned, I think it's less of Honor, but more of the spren. However, since the spren are themselves of H&C, it manifests in a way very tied to those Intents combined:

Quote

“I know of spren who do. Brave spren, who have come to the battle to join with men. In so doing, they have become stronger. They grow, like the people who bond them. Why do we need Radiants? Because they represent our best selves. We are of Honor and Cultivation. Honor, for an ideal. Cultivation, for the power to reach toward that ideal.

“The Stormfather himself agrees that this is the correct choice. People may not be perfect, but they’re worth helping strive for perfection. And you are worth more than you can ever be sitting alone and refusing to grow.”

 

7 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

requires a sapient spren, as they need to be able to judge the oaths.

Imo it's less that, and more what I mentioned above about the fact it requires them to commit and grow as well. I think it's less a conscious judgement of the oaths and more just that the spiritwebs repel each other, unless the two sides both actively try and change themselves to align and be able to mix, and they can meld more deeply as they grow more alike one another.

7 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Then again, I assume that being bonded to humans might cause greater sapience to eventually manifest, like the Stormfather gaining a less rigid perspective on things.

I do think that's plausible, and wonder if it's part of why the windspren can manifest as Plate at the Fourth Ideal. Ordinarily, they can't choose to Connect deeply enough for that, but perhaps the growing bond has over time granted them enough will to make this decision.

7 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

And I will agree that a theoretical bond with a windspren will probably not grant you power at the level of a Windrunner at the first oath, but I do think it would grant the same Surges.

I do agree there, since I think windspren are manifestations of the same Surges (though they might manifest slightly differently due to the two types of spren not being exactly the same, but probably not super differently either going off the orders with shared Surges). I'm just not sure it would necessarily be even a noticeably usable thing at that level, both because of how tiny the spren are and because the spren can't work for a stronger bond, at least at first. But I think theoretically it'd grant Adhesion and Gravitation, yeah.

7 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Well, Renarin probably does it, though in a roundabout way. The fact that it's through the Radiant bond just lets him fuel it with Stormlight and get a Blade, etc.

Depends how you define a magic system: is it the powers, or the access method? (In other words, is Compounding more Feruchemy or Allomancy?)

Renarin uses Voidbinding-associated powers, I agree, but I have to think that Voidbinding the system has a more unique access method, which would also be a valid way of categorizing the systems. (But that's rather pedantic, lol.)

Tangent, but I do think that, considering spren of any of the three Shards appear to be able to plug into Radiance, form bonds, manifested fabrials, and imprisoned fabrials, spren of Honor and Cultivation should be able to plug into the mechanism for Voidbinding, whatever that is. It's a fun crack theory of mine that that's what's going on with Adolin and Maya, though considering we don't know what Voidbinding actually is it's hard to say, lol.

7 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I also feel like the Voidbinding chart should not use twisted versions of the Surge glyphs if the Surges weren't involved or the powers didn't look like expressions of the Surges.

The impression I get is not that these are representations of something wholly alien, but something that's familiar but off in some way. If it didn't look like the Surges there would be entirely different glyphs, IMO.

Agreed, what I mean is more like, does it use wholly different things? Or does it use spren that, similar to windspren and honorspren or probably mistspren and Glys, are taking the same concept but in an Odious way? Given what we see with Re-Shephir being like a creationspren, I'm inclined to think it's the latter, which (if the spren are indeed the Surges, as Khriss seems to indicate) would explain it being Surge-based, but interpreted through the lens of violence and emotion instead of growth, ideals, and oaths.

7 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Turns out Radiants are complicated.

Seriously lmao... Sooo many pieces with them. Individual Surges, Shardblades, Shardplate, cousin spren commanding, resonances, mixed Surges...

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4 hours ago, Frustration said:

Even if they blatently used the Honorblades in every major Shin city no one other than the Shin would know due to their isolationism, so there is no reason to assume that they are trying to hide the Honorblades in the first place.

I got the impression that they were trying to keep the fact that they had them secret. Plus there is a big difference between practicing or training with them and using them. Isolated or not if they actually used them most of the major lands would soon know it and attempt to steal them for their own use or conquer them to get the blades.

I don't buy the premise that the Shin use the Honor blades at all outside of some training of a very small select group. I think they even keep them secret from from almost all of their own population with the exception of a very small select group.

Good luck starting your book. I will be interested to see your attempt.

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15 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

I got the impression that they were trying to keep the fact that they had them secret. Plus there is a big difference between practicing or training with them and using them. Isolated or not if they actually used them most of the major lands would soon know it and attempt to steal them for their own use or conquer them to get the blades.

How would other nations know if the Shin used them? No outsiders are allowed into the homeland, and none of the Shin seem even slightly intrested in sharing

19 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

]I don't buy the premise that the Shin use the Honor blades at all outside of some training of a very small select group. I think they even keep them secret from from almost all of their own population with the exception of a very small select group.

That's completly possible, but not the only option.

20 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Good luck starting your book. I will be interested to see your attempt.

Thanks... what brought that up?

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On 10/23/2021 at 4:17 PM, Frustration said:

Thanks... what brought that up?

I saw your other post about writing a book and thought I would encourage you. Personally I am a very slow writer and spend weeks or even months trying to resolve some scene to my liking doing more thinking than typing (much more). Never the less I did finally finish one novel a few years ago then life got in the way and doing new novels has been slow for me. I honestly don't know how many novel seeds I have started so I would still advise just do it at least once because until you do the story will remain vague, or at least that is my experience. When I try to flesh out the story in hard copy it transforms before my eyes. Brandon would call me predominantly a gardener with hardly any architectural structure.

Never the less good luck and get started the journey is worth it.

I still think that if the few Shin who had the honor blades used them the plotting to get them by other Shin would have alerted the outside world to their presence within the country. Plus using them against each other would come with major nation destroying problems as well. So I think rare, covert use was the rule until Szeth killed the king openly as ordered. Even then that only revealed one blade and it couldn't match the ability of a true windrunner. It was only Szeth's remarkable skill which made it come close.

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On 2021-10-23 at 11:56 PM, BenduLuke said:

I got the impression that they were trying to keep the fact that they had them secret.

For one, it's not like the rest of Roshar, outside the Skybreakers, would even know that they were Surgebinding, let alone that the Honorblades were the source.

Also, they definitely used them in the past:

Quote

Zykai (paraphrased)

Did the Shin use Honorblades in their invasions? If yes, did they also use Surges?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes and yes.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

And as Frustration has noted, they could be using them openly within Shinovar and no stonewalker would be any the wiser.

On 2021-10-23 at 11:56 PM, BenduLuke said:

I don't buy the premise that the Shin use the Honor blades at all outside of some training of a very small select group.

I think this is partly true, though given Szeth's proficiency wity Jezrien's Blade, I do think the training given to the appointed/chosen bearer of a certain Blade with said Blade is rather extensive.

We also know that Szeth has done ice skating as an Abrasion excercise, so it's not improbable that the people carrying the Honorblades were given enough training to be competent with all of them, possibly in case another carrier died.

I do think that the Blades are the territory of the Stone Shamanate however, and probably don't see extensive use. The famously isolationist Shin don't have people Soulcasting metal daily, but rather trade with outsiders?

So I do think there's some merit to the idea that they're kept, if not secret, at least closely guarded by the Stone Shamans. Obviously with some rules we don't know, as Szeth got to keep his Blade as Truthless.

On 2021-10-23 at 10:05 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Oh I definitely disagree, so far all the fabrials we know are very closely tied to the thing, though sometimes in interesting ways.

I'd argue that cojoiners don't have much to do with flamespren, we even know that other spren can be used, but flamespren are easiest to work with.

On 2021-10-23 at 10:05 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Painspren in fabrials can raise or lower pain levels, flamespren raise or lower heat, etc.

Oh, I'm not saying that the fabrial function has to be unrelated, but I don't think it has to be directly related. Then again, it might be mostly an issue of not having accurate names for the kinds of spren.

I was paging through WoK recently, I thought there was a discussion of the Surges in there, and I noticed one of Shallan's illustrations. The illustration of the skyeel has a note musing on the spren surrounding it, Shallan can't ID the spren but notes that the sailors call them "luckspren."

It wouldn't surprise me if several spren have gotten inaccurate colloquial names, not indicative of their nature.

(My personal theory is that they are "luckspren" from incidents similar to what happened with Rysn, people surviving falls that would be certain death and such.)

On 2021-10-23 at 10:05 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

What exactly is up with logicspren, the oddest ones, isn't fully clear (though it should be noted the timing thing isn't an effect from manifestation, just from leaking), but logic & debate -> timing is a Cosmere-wide association that appears in AonDor as well. So it does seem the concepts are intrinsically tied to their effects in some way.

Hmm, I suppose so.

That definitely makes me lean more towards the spren having names that aren't indicative of their nature in all cases.

It would be convenient to get a deeper look at both fabrials and AonDor, to spot if there are more paralells.

I think it safe to say that Investiture reacting to metal is a fundamental of the cosmere, possibly related to how it is in the nature of Investiture to coalesce into metal. I also think that, based on how the metals affect fabrials, that allomancy is very similar to the base interaction between metal and Investiture, which IMO makes sense for a system emanating from Preservation.

We also know that colour is important, both from WoBs and the tidbit that colour is like taste to a spren, and I'm prepared to peg the interaction between colour and Investiture as another cosmere fundamental.

Another fundamental is probably Investiture interacting with various crystal structures, being storable in the Rosharan polestones, among others. Beyond the Rosharan Lights, we know from a WoB that you could finagle the Mists into a gem, and the Ire Shade detector most probably works off the Dor. This one might be less of a fundamental and more of an interaction between colour and metal interacting with Investiture (in the sense that specific colours and molecular stuctures having an effect on Investiture.)

Yet another seeming fundamental is that certain concepts affect Investiture in regular ways across different systems, as we see with logicspren and Aon Ene, IIRC. I would assume that there're others, as just logic and debate seems to be weirdly limited, possibly one fundamental idea per Shard, or something.

Also, to be clear, I don't think these are fundamental in the sense that they are required, but that they will apply consistently across several systems if applied to them.

On 2021-10-23 at 10:05 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

The way I've viewed the spren, based off these things, is that they sort of like... represent the intersections of all these concepts. On Roshar, the Surges and Essences are personified and viewed as interconnected, and so we end up with things like "Zephyr is associated with Adhesion and Gravitation, and offers protection and leadership", and by tying a large enough chunk of Investiture to this concept we end up with honorspren, a mind that is what people imagine its mind to be (filtered through Honor and Cultivation's Intents).

Hmm... OK, that makes sense.

I do wonder how that relationship tracks when applied across all the Radiant spren.

Like, how is blood tied to Cryptics? (I mean, they represent physics. I suppose you clould see them as the metaphorical blood of the universe, but I'm not very partial to that.)

On 2021-10-23 at 10:05 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

In that case, though, I think it's more a matter of philosophy than mechanics (though those are tightly intertwined in the Cosmere and on Roshar in particular, so perhaps that's not really a position that can exist), and more vague and complicated than a direct correlation.

Fair, fair.

I do think they are of the Surges, rather than being pure Surges.

Or possibly being derived versions of the Surges. Just like real life physics have non-fundamental forces derived from fundamental ones.

On 2021-10-23 at 10:05 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Like, they're Transformation etc in the way that the Metallic Arts are, if you view everything through the lens of the Surges, as opposed to being a "pure" Surge. Does that make sense or am I just rambling detatchedly? who knows lmao

That makes perfect sense, given my interpretation.

I think.

On 2021-10-23 at 10:05 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I don't think they can all plug into the Radiant bond, because I don't think the bond can get deep enough to let a person manipulate their power without hacks like how a gemheart seems to be weird and maybe tied into the soul, but I think you can get something like what we see with Plate spren (lesser spren being pulled into the Physical more strongly), which I see as the same sort of mechanic but more shallowly.

I can see that having merit.

I can once again bemoan the terminology here, as we really need more accurate ways of talking about this.

I do agree that they can't plug into the Radiant bond, but can plug into the Nahel bond.

On 2021-10-23 at 10:05 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I do not think that oaths are essential, even now. I think commitment, intention, is, along with understanding. We see with characters like Lift, Venli, and Eshonai that you don't need to say anything, or even think a specific thing in the case of when the first two hit their Ideals (at least with my understanding of when Lift hit her Ideal, which is debated).

Hmm

I'd say that the essence of the oath is necessary, while the words are not.

On 2021-10-23 at 10:05 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

What you do need is to align your intentions with the spren's Intent, and to understand the Ideal (the Stormfather's description of Connection as a bond of knowledge feels relevant here).

I can see that, though I'm not sure how accurate it is, given the oath progression of the Windrunners.

Funny thing is that the order with the most unstructured oaths, the Lightweavers, are a perfect fit for this idea. Cryptics are the spren of physics and I can think of few things truer than that.

Circling back to the Windrunners, it may of course be a representation of the spren becoming more flexible, more human over time as well. Second and Third Ideal are very spren-like, a blanket idea of protection, while Fourth is more flexible. Compare how the Stormfather says he can understand the Heralds failing now, as opposed to just judging them when they walked away.

On 2021-10-23 at 10:05 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I think what we see in Rhythm of War is at least conceptually similar, and maybe even mechanically the same sort of thing:

Quote

Holding the Fused’s hand, Navani felt as if she were reaching for something. Her tone changed slightly.

Raboniel responded, their two tones moving toward one another, step by step, until …

Harmony.

The rhythms snapped into alignment, a burst of chaotic notes from Raboniel—bounded by a regular, orderly pulse from Navani.

The intentions and identities (possibly capitalized, possibly not) aligning and becoming one greater whole that represents both. Which is I think why it requires both a sapient spren and sapient creature, it's something they both have to actively choose and work towards. (Interestingly, when Teft summons Phendorana at the end, it says "He felt something from Phendorana. A harmony between them.", which I feel lines up with that idea.)

Hmm, interesting.

Makes me wonder what the Rhythm of Humanity is.

On 2021-10-23 at 10:05 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

The second thing is that I don't think the steps are as discrete as people think. I think instead they're the tipping points, where the bond becomes strong enough to do specific things:

  1. Properly establish the bond so it won't fade
  2. ??? because we see too few knowledgeable First Ideal Radiants for too short a time to compare
  3. Manifest the spren physically
  4. Manifest other spren their main spren is Connected to physically
  5. ???

We see in RoW with Kaladin that being close to the Ideal lets him in some ways work the same as someone who has hit it. And at the end, Teft is able to go a step further and summon Phendorana physically, with effort. And of course, there's what Brandon's said about Shallan's "1.1 steps forward, 1 step backward" thing happening a lot.

That makes perfect sense, yes.

With how Kaladin has been described as basically being at the Fourth, knowing the Words and all, just not willing to accept it, I don't think there's much room for disagreement.

On 2021-10-23 at 10:05 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

So I do think the oaths are an artificial construct, but less a magical addition and more just a way to help people intuitively grasp the ideas more, and a natural effect of the common stopping points + the fact that we often find putting something into words and expressing it to make commitment feel stronger and more lasting and important.

(I think the Skybreakers are the most clear case of this: I find it highly doubtful they have super oddly specific steps compared to literally every other order so far, I think it's just that this is a method they worked out that helps bring people in line with the concepts in an orderly and clear way.)

Hmm, yes, I can see that.

It's of course possible that the Oaths are more necessary than at the inception of the Radiants, as the spren seem to think they're required, which might make them more required in itself. See Syl's imploring Kaladin to speak the Words and the Sibling saying that Navani has to swear to unite instead of divide.

I also feel like the Oaths have to have some more relevance, Kaladin acting counter to them drains his power in WoR and, well, the whole Recreance business. Also the idea of Ishar's precepts and laws, which would fit neatly into the way the Oaths restrain certain manifestations of Surgebinding. (Then again, Lightweavers have access to Transformation and no Oath checks, soooo...)

On 2021-10-23 at 10:05 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

The way I've been thinking of it, the Enlightened spren represent a similar concept, but just as Honor and Cultivation filter the concept's manifestation, so too does Odium. The Rhythms are a good example of what I mean—what is Curiosity under Honor and Cultivation becomes Craving under Odium. So I think they'll be the "same" in that they're an expression of the same base idea, but different in that it's flavoured differently.

OK, but are the hungerspren still hungerspren? Are they starvationspren?

I wish we had more information here, as it feels like we're grasping at almost nothing.

On 2021-10-23 at 10:05 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I think the reason they haven't bonded singers is mostly due to whatever Blended is talking about when she refers to the singers betraying them: something happened during the ancient days that drove a massive wedge between the two, and since this was before the Radiant bond was discovered...

Makes one wonder what the heck was worse than the freaking Recreance.

I also got the impression that the True spren had been told to not bond singers, but that might have been me reading too much into it or misinterpreting where that came from. (Shardic vs societal)

On 2021-10-23 at 10:05 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I don't think that the Rosharan magic systems are directly Shardic, personally. On Scadrial, the magic comes from having pieces of the Shards in them due to being created by those Shards (we ignore Hemalurgy because I have no idea what causes that one lmao, but Brandon's referred to "the seeds of the three Metallic Arts" being in Scadrians for that reason before), but on Roshar, it comes from the spren being in the spiritweb. So I think the magic systems are less tied to the Shards, and more to the individual spren (with the similarities arising from the similarities in composition of those spren).

Fair, fair.

I suppose it's easy to ping each system as categorically belonging to Shards directly.

However, we do know that Honor restricted Surgebinding in several ways, so it can't be wholly outside his influence.

On 2021-10-23 at 10:05 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

(I think Sel is another example of this: we know the relationship between Radiant and spren is similar to that between Elantrian and Arelon, so that situation probably comes from people in different regions getting their magics from different "spren". While those "spren" aren't sapient, they're also huge, so even a relatively shallower bond with one still grants a decent amount of power.)

That is a really neat observation and I love it.

On 2021-10-23 at 10:05 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

As mentioned, I think it's less of Honor, but more of the spren. However, since the spren are themselves of H&C, it manifests in a way very tied to those Intents combined:

Quote

“I know of spren who do. Brave spren, who have come to the battle to join with men. In so doing, they have become stronger. They grow, like the people who bond them. Why do we need Radiants? Because they represent our best selves. We are of Honor and Cultivation. Honor, for an ideal. Cultivation, for the power to reach toward that ideal.

“The Stormfather himself agrees that this is the correct choice. People may not be perfect, but they’re worth helping strive for perfection. And you are worth more than you can ever be sitting alone and refusing to grow.”

Fair, fair.

I definitely think the Nahel bond is a product of Honor, but the mechanics of the Radiants are of both.

On 2021-10-23 at 10:05 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Imo it's less that, and more what I mentioned above about the fact it requires them to commit and grow as well. I think it's less a conscious judgement of the oaths and more just that the spiritwebs repel each other, unless the two sides both actively try and change themselves to align and be able to mix, and they can meld more deeply as they grow more alike one another.

I can see that being the case.

That also helps explain how "Futurewatchers" can still get Blades, they might not have formalised Oaths, but the bondmates can still strive for mutual understanding.

Quote

Questioner

Because of Glys' corrupted nature as a spren of Sja-anat, does that mean that Renarin's swearing different Ideals than the mainstream Truthwatcher ideals?

Brandon Sanderson

Um... I'll RAFO that for now. But there will definitely be some differences.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

 

On 2021-10-23 at 10:05 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Depends how you define a magic system: is it the powers, or the access method?

How do you define access method?

I'm not sure if you mean fuel source or what grants the ability.

I'd personally say that the primary definer is power or nature. An attractor fabrial attuned to Foil isn't iron allomancy, no matter how similar it is, even if it's accessing the same fundamentals.

The more I think about this, the more complicated it gets however.

I don't think it can be defined by fuel source, the Fused Surgebind, Venli Surgebinds when using Voidlight, Surgebinding fueled by Breath and Awakening fueled by Stormlight would still fundamentally be Surgebinding and Awakening.

Just like a theoretical Nahel bond to everone's favourite ghost-slash-cult-leader might grant Stormlight-fueled allomancy.

The Nahel bond, as I concieve it, is simply a plug'n'play mechanism, allowing Cognitive entities into spiritwebs. It grants access to power in line with the nature of the entity, and the ability to fuel said power using Stormlight (in most cases... Lift... <_<), presumably by being Connected to Honor, as Connection to Odium makes it possible to substitute Stormlight with Voidlight.

In my mind accessing power through a Nahel bond in no way changes the base nature of the power itself, though it possibly gets interpreted through the structure of the Nahel bond. (Blade, Plate, tipping points of power, mutual growth)

In a similar vein (heh) allomancy and feruchemy are still allomancy and feruchemy when granted by spikes and medallions.

So I'm happy to say Renarin's abilities are 100% Voidbinding, the fact that he fuels them with Stormlight and accesses them through the Nahel bond in no way makes them not Voidbinding.

And I just realised that I wrote Nahel bond rather than Radiant bond in this entire section...

I guess my answer is that the powers define the system then.

Which leads to a very unsightly escape clause having to enter my idea that Surgebinding and Voidbinding being different expressions of the same principles (the Surges), as it makes the definition of Surgebinding "these ten very variable and fluid powers, but like, only in these ways."

Anyway...

On 2021-10-23 at 10:05 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

In other words, is Compounding more Feruchemy or Allomancy?

I'm very tempted to say "yes, or possibly no," but by my own definitions it'd be feruchemy.

On 2021-10-23 at 10:05 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Tangent, but I do think that, considering spren of any of the three Shards appear to be able to plug into Radiance, form bonds, manifested fabrials, and imprisoned fabrials, spren of Honor and Cultivation should be able to plug into the mechanism for Voidbinding, whatever that is.

Hard agree.

On 2021-10-23 at 10:05 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Given what we see with Re-Shephir being like a creationspren, I'm inclined to think it's the latter, which (if the spren are indeed the Surges, as Khriss seems to indicate) would explain it being Surge-based, but interpreted through the lens of violence and emotion instead of growth, ideals, and oaths.

I can believe that. I'm not 100% sold on the violence part, but otherwise.

I also think that Voidbinding and the powers of the Unmade are probably one and the same, though that is based in a lot of conjecture.

 

 

¤_¤

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4 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I think this is partly true, though given Szeth's proficiency wity Jezrien's Blade, I do think the training given to the appointed/chosen bearer of a certain Blade with said Blade is rather extensive.

We also know that Szeth has done ice skating as an Abrasion excercise, so it's not improbable that the people carrying the Honorblades were given enough training to be competent with all of them, possibly in case another carrier died.

I do think that the Blades are the territory of the Stone Shamanate however, and probably don't see extensive use. The famously isolationist Shin don't have people Soulcasting metal daily, but rather trade with outsiders?

So I do think there's some merit to the idea that they're kept, if not secret, at least closely guarded by the Stone Shamans. Obviously with some rules we don't know, as Szeth got to keep his Blade as Truthless.

Not all surges are as obvious as those of windrunners so would be easier to hide, and not even all of the windrunners surges are obvious. However blatant use would still generate rumors that would reveal them to observant outsiders both inside and outside Shinovar. To keep the blades secret until Szeth was ordered to execute the king publicly with flare any who witnessed their use outside the order were killed, and their use was kept very rare and covert to minimize any chance of discovery to almost none. That would also limit testing the limits of their power, and only practicing and using well know abilities.

Szeth probably got to keep the blade because he was already bonded to it and it couldn't be taken from him without killing him. A feat difficult to achieve as he is one of the most skilled duelists in the world.

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5 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Szeth probably got to keep the blade because he was already bonded to it and it couldn't be taken from him without killing him. A feat difficult to achieve as he is one of the most skilled duelists in the world.

I'm not so sure this is accurate. My reading of his pov in RoW made it seem to me that his family being required to take up the Honorblades was a punishment, probably a strongly religion based one, and thus it coincided along with his Truthless punishment. I don't think the Shin truly there was any risk of letting him keep it considering Szeth was pretty confident that they would retrieve it upon his death.

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Are you bleeping kidding me... why does it not ask for confirmation before accidentally reloading like most sites do when you've typed something... AAAA

@Inquisitor #5I'll respond to a few points I can rewrite quickly now, but a longer and more in-depth response is gonna probably need to wait til morning because I'm too tired to redo it all, lol.

11 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I would assume that there're others, as just logic and debate seems to be weirdly limited, possibly one fundamental idea per Shard, or something.

I agree with the first half, dunno on the second. I think it's more likely that when cultures have very similar ideas, they grow connected (used in a mundane way here, but probably tied to capital-C anyway tbh) in the Spiritual and Cognitive Realms, and so when the magic system taps into the concept, it taps into the broader one (directly or indirectly, idk) and this leads to parallels.

11 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I do wonder how that relationship tracks when applied across all the Radiant spren.

A lot of them do seem tied to the Essences (Reachers are made of metal, inkspren look like oil, peakspren are made of stone, etc), but yeah some like the Cryptics aren't super clear-cut.

11 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Or possibly being derived versions of the Surges. Just like real life physics have non-fundamental forces derived from fundamental ones.

I think that even under my interpretation, you could make a similar argument, that rather than being one pure Surge, they're kind of a more complicated thing that nonetheless are very close to the pure Surges (honorspren aren't just an embodiment of Gravitation, they're the idea of attraction and kind of revolving around something, along with the idea of sticking together and being bound, filtered through Honor's lens of duty and nobility, and filtered through Cultivation's lens of nurturing and life, hence the Radiant Ideals being tied to protection and the spren tending to be attracted to natural leaders and those who form strong interpersonal bonds).

11 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

However, we do know that Honor restricted Surgebinding in several ways, so it can't be wholly outside his influence.

He did, but that makes sense to me, considering the spren are significantly of him and it tends to be fueled by his Light. Lots of involvement from Honor's Investiture for him to intervene via, even if it's not directly "his". And once he started going mad, the rules started falling away, going off what SF says about Melishi, so it seems to in some ways have been more an active process.

12 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

How do you define access method?

Lol, true, that's vague. In this case, I'm referring to burning metals in Allomancy, drawing Aons in AonDor, and.... who even knows for Surgebinding......... it feels a lot more direct in the latter.

In this case, the rough idea for the mechanisms (which I have not fully defined in-depth, just to get the idea across) would be fabrials -> spren in the PR using the power on their own (sometimes triggered by metal), Surgebinding -> a physical being using the power via a bond, Voidbinding -> ?????? (perhaps a spren using the power anchored via a bond or something). Lot more fundamental than something more abstracted away like Allomancy.

12 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

The Nahel bond, as I concieve it, is simply a plug'n'play mechanism, allowing Cognitive entities into spiritwebs. It grants access to power in line with the nature of the entity, and the ability to fuel said power using Stormlight (in most cases... Lift... <_<), presumably by being Connected to Honor, as Connection to Odium makes it possible to substitute Stormlight with Voidlight.

I.... sooooooorta agree, sort of don't. I view it less as an Honor thing and more a fundamental function of Connection and Investment at the heart of most magics. I agree fuel source certainly doesn't seem to define the magic, though.

12 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Which leads to a very unsightly escape clause having to enter my idea that Surgebinding and Voidbinding being different expressions of the same principles (the Surges), as it makes the definition of Surgebinding "these ten very variable and fluid powers, but like, only in these ways."

Yeah, this is why I don't love using the power-based definitions, though in-world I do expect they'll probably delineate it that way and I've resigned myself to that. There's not really a neat way to do it—if Hemalurgy is the power, is taking memories from Breath Hemalurgy? If Hemalurgy is stabbing with metal to remove Investiture, is raysium Hemalurgy? If Hemalurgy is granting power via an Invested spike, could stabbing someone with an unkeyed metalmind possibly perform Hemalurgy (if this would indeed work, which is uncertain, but Brandon has said putting Invested metal in people often does weird things in general)? If we say it's the Shard, are Aviar sand masters? If we say it's only the combination specific combination, alright, but then is Compounding its own magic system? Every rule has counterintuitive results.

12 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I can believe that. I'm not 100% sold on the violence part, but otherwise.

May not always be straight up violence, but probably a fierceness, at least. Something more Odious, more emotional, more active, more consuming, more aggressive. When you're curious, you're eager and wonder. When you're craving, you want it, you need it, you will do anything to get it.

12 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I also think that Voidbinding and the powers of the Unmade are probably one and the same, though that is based in a lot of conjecture.

Agreed, or at least extremely similar. Especially with how Sja-anat compares her power to corrupt spren to Transformation... which is exactly what the Sibling says Raboniel is using to corrupt them.

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20 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Not all surges are as obvious as those of windrunners so would be easier to hide, and not even all of the windrunners surges are obvious. However blatant use would still generate rumors that would reveal them to observant outsiders both inside and outside Shinovar. To keep the blades secret until Szeth was ordered to execute the king publicly with flare any who witnessed their use outside the order were killed, and their use was kept very rare and covert to minimize any chance of discovery to almost none. That would also limit testing the limits of their power, and only practicing and using well know abilities.

There are no outsiders in Shinovar, Vistim heavily implied to be the one they trust the most, isn't even allowed to see their farmland, all trading is done far from any cities.

People outside of Shinovar would have no idea, as they would be unable to see anything, and no one is actively observing the Shin anyway.

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