LewsTherinTelescope

theory
Is "Physical Adhesion" even a thing?

44 posts in this topic

TL;DR: Pretty sure that "Physical Adhesion" is just an extremely limited form of Spiritual Adhesion, as opposed to a separate manifestation of the concept.


(This theory's a lot less complex than many of my others, so it's gonna be way shorter and less formatted.)

Rereading the Ars Arcanum, a couple things stood out to me about Adhesion:

Quote

A Full Lashing might seem very similar to a Basic Lashing, but they worked on very different principles. While one had to do with gravitation, the other had to do with the force (or Surge, as the Radiants called them) of adhesion—binding objects together as if they were one. I believe this Surge may have had something to do with atmospheric pressure.

To create a Full Lashing, a Windrunner would infuse an object with Stormlight, then press another object to it. The two objects would become bound together with an extremely powerful bond, nearly impossible to break. In fact, most materials would themselves break before the bond holding them together would.

If it's just a Physical binding, it's odd it's so completely unbreakable, and "binding objects together as if they were one" certainly doesn't sound very Physical when put next to the other powers of Adhesion. In fact, it sounds somewhat similar to what Ishar did:

Quote

The effects shouldn’t be permanent, the Stormfather said. But I cannot say for certain. Ishar Connected them to the ground. Essentially, their powers saw the stones as part of their body—and so tried to fill the ground with Stormlight as it fills their veins.

Now, obviously the effects are not exactly the same—the Pursuer doesn't get all his Voidlight drained out, and neither does Lopen. But it might be a version of the same thing with a weaker Connection, or perhaps making them "as one" in a different way than directly making the surface part of the target's body.

But yeah, after what we saw with Ishar and the emphasis in RoW of Adhesion as a much more spiritual force ("Honor’s Truest Surge, the Surge of Binding and Oaths"), I think that "Physical Adhesion" isn't a separate manifestation of the Surge from "Spiritual Adhesion" at all, it's just that Windrunners don't have enough raw power to manipulate the Connection in more complex or deeper ways than a quick "you, you're that now".

Perhaps it's similar to how normally Allomancers can only Push and Pull on metal, but if you chuck enough Investiture into the spiritweb via something like the Bands of Mourning, you reach the point you can see and nearly interact with the souls of objects and people, like Marasi and Wax mention? A Bondsmith spren probably has enough Investiture that when it starts to enter your spiritweb, it pushes the limits of what's possible pretty far compared to a normal sapient spren.

(None of this is particularly groundbreaking as a concept, but "Spiritual Adhesion" and "Physical Adhesion" are still distinctions I've seen thrown around and even used myself until very recently, so I think it's still worth a discussion even if it's probably happened before.)

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So you are saying that Physical Adhesion is just the visible result of Spiritual Adhesion?  If so, that makes sense Realmatically.  Are you suggesting that Bondsmiths are more Invested, per Oath level, than Windrunners?  That I'm not so sure of.  I wonder if the Bondsmith's ability to manipulate Spiritual Connection on a deeper level is due to the resonance between Adhesion and Tension.  The need to work on very fine scales to manipulate axi with Tension might allow the intricate and subtle work with Adhesion as well.

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1 hour ago, Brgst13 said:

So you are saying that Physical Adhesion is just the visible result of Spiritual Adhesion?  If so, that makes sense Realmatically. 

Mostly, yeah. Mainly just pushing back against the idea that Bondsmiths are like, accessing an entire different version of the Surge like the way Renarin's futuresight is or something. It's just accessing a narrower part vs a broader part that includes said broader part, imo.

1 hour ago, Brgst13 said:

Are you suggesting that Bondsmiths are more Invested, per Oath level, than Windrunners? That I'm not so sure of. 

Imo, yes. If the bond is a similar level of depth (and I think it'd be odd if it wasn't, though this is just gut feeling on my part), then it will probably involve significantly more Investiture simply because the spren has significantly more Investiture. Plus, Bondsmiths can do crazy things like create Light, and Dalinar can open a whole Perpendicularity. Combine that with the in general far more expansive access to the powers (which, as we see with the Bands, is something higher levels of Investiture can cause in at least some cases), and I think it's reasonable.

1 hour ago, Brgst13 said:

I wonder if the Bondsmith's ability to manipulate Spiritual Connection on a deeper level is due to the resonance between Adhesion and Tension.  The need to work on very fine scales to manipulate axi with Tension might allow the intricate and subtle work with Adhesion as well.

Maybe? Wish we'd seen Tension literally ever to be able to say :lol:

I don't think that's an unreasonable idea, but it does make more sense to me for the absolutely staggeringly absurd level of power a Bondsmith is capable of achieving to be due to the wayyyyy larger spren than due just to the combo of Surges, because otherwise you'd expect orders with similar levels of craziness from the combinations and we just don't really seem to see that (and also it adds a much stronger limit: much harder to make a new "godspren" than a bunch of normal-sized spren of Adhesion and Tension, if on a meta level you want to keep things from getting too out of hand).

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I think you're breaking down the terminologies a bit too much. Everything an Invested Art does is not just Physical. There is no effect that is only Physical, they're all effects cascading down from the Cognitive or Spiritual from strength & speed boosts to sandbending. This is just a categorization aid. The effect is Physical.

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7 minutes ago, Honorless said:

I think you're breaking down the terminologies a bit too much. Everything an Invested Art does is not just Physical. There is no effect that is only Physical, they're all effects cascading down from the Cognitive or Spiritual from strength & speed boosts to sandbending. This is just a categorization aid. The effect is Physical.

Depends on the context. Sometimes people just mean it like that, which is fair enough (though I still think it's more appropriate to use different terminology because Bondsmith powers are really broad and "Physical" and "Spiritual" don't capture all the variations, but also we don't really have terminology for anything beyond Full Lashings so it's not like we can do much there lol).

But I have seen people propose it as a completely separate power to the normal Surge a la Renarin's abilities vs a normal Truthwatcher's before, and express uncertainty over whether it's possible for a Bondsmith to use "Physical Adhesion" (which they can) because they see them as two different things. That's more the stance this is against (though perhaps my post was not clear there, because it was rushed a lot more than my usual).

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I think ultimately it comes down to what makes something physical.

Is physical gravitation even a thing? Or is it just a spiritual rewritting of a bond?

I agree Bondsmiths/Windrunners hve the same surge, just applied differently, but I feel that saying Adhesion isn't physical at all is incorrect.

Edit::ph34r:'d me with a responce, that's a first.

Edited by Frustration
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It sort of is a different ability when its effect is so different. We've seen Kal use it to manipulate local air pressure. It's just that the idea of things joining together and the wind & storms are probably both Connected to Honor due to how he's Invested in Roshar, I think. So, a lessened, just Physical version of Adhesion utilizes air pressure, and this particular effect can be used to do things other than sticking things together.

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3 minutes ago, Honorless said:

It sort of is a different ability when its effect is so different. We've seen Kal use it to manipulate local air pressure. It's just that the idea of things joining together and the wind & storms are probably both Connected to Honor due to how he's Invested in Roshar, I think. So, a lessened, just Physical version of Adhesion utilizes air pressure, and this particular effect can be used to do things other than sticking things together.

That's why I drew the distinction I did–the powers aren't different abilities, imo. One seems to be a subset of the other, I feel. (With the exception of the Windrunners messing with the air, which seems completely unrelated to the Full Lashing mechanically, and which Dalinar cannot do, so who knows if that one is even pure Adhesion or is a combo Surge, or just an "honorspren come from windspren so they can do random wind stuff" thing, or what).

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In advance: My English still isn't very good (even given all the English -- mostly Brandon's -- books I've read since I stumbled over BS :)) also I've never been good in physics. :)

 
17 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

TL;DR: Pretty sure that "Physical Adhesion" is just an extremely limited form of Spiritual Adhesion, as opposed to a separate manifestation of the concept.


If it's just a Physical binding, it's odd it's so completely unbreakable, and "binding objects together as if they were one" certainly doesn't sound very Physical when put next to the other powers of Adhesion.


When I read this I recalled this scene from Words of Radiance:
 
Quote

"Spren," Rock said, pointing. "They pull the stone against the wall."
"What?", Sigzil said ... "I don't see them." ... Kaladin ... could make out the tiny purple spren if he looked closely.

(Words of Radiance, Chapter 12, Hero)
 

What those spren do, I don't have an idea. :)
Anyways sticking objects together is something windspren -- and Syl -- can do themselves, without "human" intervention.
 
17 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

In fact, it sounds somewhat similar to what Ishar did:

Quote

The effects shouldn’t be permanent, the Stormfather said. But I cannot say for certain. Ishar Connected them to the ground. Essentially, their powers saw the stones as part of their body—and so tried to fill the ground with Stormlight as it fills their veins.


That was my impression also -- with the added effect that the ground drained them of Stormlight what might be caused by Ishar having combined the "Physical Adhesion" with "Spiritual Adhesion" by "making their powers see the stones as part of their body".

IMHO Spiritual Adhesion is creating a "spiritual" (or/and cognitive?) bond, as it was with Dalinar in Azir.

Unfortunately Rock wasn't there to tell us whether there also were spren involved.
 
17 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Now, obviously the effects are not exactly the same—the Pursuer doesn't get all his Voidlight drained out,


I don't think that Kaladin even thought about such a possibility. Would he know about Connection?
 
So for reasons of simplification Spiritual Adhesion is creation something that doesn't bind "things" together while Physical Adhesion it is when physical things get bound.
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Hmm, this generally tracks.

On 2021-10-10 at 2:19 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

If it's just a Physical binding, it's odd it's so completely unbreakable, and "binding objects together as if they were one" certainly doesn't sound very Physical when put next to the other powers of Adhesion.

I do disagree here, it could just be a magical binding agent that's more durable than the things bound.

Think about separating two things glued together, depending on the materials and glue, a glued thing might break before the glue gives.

Not that I think that'll be the mechanic after perusing the thread, but it doesn't stick out to me.

On 2021-10-10 at 2:19 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

In fact, it sounds somewhat similar to what Ishar did:

Quote

The effects shouldn’t be permanent, the Stormfather said. But I cannot say for certain. Ishar Connected them to the ground. Essentially, their powers saw the stones as part of their body—and so tried to fill the ground with Stormlight as it fills their veins.

I'm inclined to think of it more as similar to Dalinar's Duolingo power, though that is a roundabout agreement after some consideration.

The way it seems to me is that each of these (Full Lashing, Duolingo, Ishar's... thing) are all based on the same underlying principle, just applied to different things.

Full Lashings tell two physical objects "you are one," while sneaking the cosmere a bribe to agree, thus the objects behave as one.

Dalinar's Duolingo and Ishar's shenanigans simply seem to apply the same concept to some more abstract non-Physical things, presumably Connection and Identity respectively, if I were to guess. Connection is known to enable language and Identity seems probable for making one thing behave as an extention of another.

On 2021-10-10 at 2:19 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

But yeah, after what we saw with Ishar and the emphasis in RoW of Adhesion as a much more spiritual force ("Honor’s Truest Surge, the Surge of Binding and Oaths"), I think that "Physical Adhesion" isn't a separate manifestation of the Surge from "Spiritual Adhesion" at all, it's just that Windrunners don't have enough raw power to manipulate the Connection in more complex or deeper ways than a quick "you, you're that now".

Makes sense.

On 2021-10-10 at 2:19 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Perhaps it's similar to how normally Allomancers can only Push and Pull on metal, but if you chuck enough Investiture into the spiritweb via something like the Bands of Mourning, you reach the point you can see and nearly interact with the souls of objects and people, like Marasi and Wax mention? A Bondsmith spren probably has enough Investiture that when it starts to enter your spiritweb, it pushes the limits of what's possible pretty far compared to a normal sapient spren.

Now, this raises an interesting question to me.

Ishar's Blade is seen enabling him to do stuff at a comparable level to Dalinar.

I don't think Tanavast would have played favourites with the Heralds, so would they all have access to the "broad spectrum" of their Surges?

Could Jezrien's Blade have enabled the opening of a Perpendicularity?

On 2021-10-10 at 2:19 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

(None of this is particularly groundbreaking as a concept, but "Spiritual Adhesion" and "Physical Adhesion" are still distinctions I've seen thrown around and even used myself until very recently, so I think it's still worth a discussion even if it's probably happened before.)

I think these definitions are still useful tools for discussion, though it hadn't dawned on me that people were apparently treating "Physical" and "Spiritual" as separate things rather than separate aspects of one thing.

The way I see it any power can theoretically manifest along the lines of the three Realms.

So Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual [power]. 

In the case of Adhesion, it is helpful to be able to talk about "narrow spectrum" Adhesion and "broad spectrum" Adhesion, as we don't see any hints that Windrunners can actively use any manifestation of Adhesion that doesn't directly affect the Physical.

The only time Windrunners seem to be able to tap into something like the "broad spectrum" is during their level ups.

Ishar says that things get closer to the Spiritual when a Radiant swears an oath and that it is especially prominent with Bondsmiths, but that still means that something happens with "normal" Radiants.

And during the moment of achieving a new oath Windrunners do like Bondsmiths and pull Light out of nowhere.

My conjecture is then that all orders get a brief period of access to a "broad spectrum" of their powers with each oath, possibly due to the influx of investiture into the spiritweb upon attaining it. Most Orders however don't manifest this particularly visibly, as only orders with access to Adhesion seem able to pull Light out of nowhere.

Huh, that might have gotten away from me...

Anyway, I do feel like the labels are useful for discussion as they can help us differentiate between different applications/manifestations of the same power.

On 2021-10-10 at 6:07 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Mainly just pushing back against the idea that Bondsmiths are like, accessing an entire different version of the Surge like the way Renarin's futuresight is or something. It's just accessing a narrower part vs a broader part that includes said broader part, imo.

This makes sense, especially as Dalinar sticks Kadash to the floor that one time.

On 2021-10-10 at 6:53 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

though I still think it's more appropriate to use different terminology because Bondsmith powers are really broad and "Physical" and "Spiritual" don't capture all the variations

I'd say that the terminology is fine, if unrefined and unstandardised.

Physical Adhesion should, IMO, indicate Adhesion acting in/upon the Physical, Spiritual Adhesion the same upon the Spiritual.

The former covers sticking things together, the latter messing with the cosmere components of the soul.

Though the more I think as I write the less adequate these sound.

Dalinar and Ishar's Perpendicularity trick probably needs its own category as "Hybrid" Adhesion or something and there are presumably Cognitive manifestations as well, presumably the thing that Syl thinks Dalinar should be able to do to make her feel what Kaladin feels would be that kind.

Then there's Dalinar's repair powers, which Brandon has classified as Bondsmith stuff, which almost seems like reverse Soulcasting in a way.

On 2021-10-10 at 7:12 AM, Honorless said:

It sort of is a different ability when its effect is so different. We've seen Kal use it to manipulate local air pressure. It's just that the idea of things joining together and the wind & storms are probably both Connected to Honor due to how he's Invested in Roshar, I think. So, a lessened, just Physical version of Adhesion utilizes air pressure, and this particular effect can be used to do things other than sticking things together.

 

On 2021-10-10 at 7:17 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

That's why I drew the distinction I did–the powers aren't different abilities, imo. One seems to be a subset of the other, I feel. (With the exception of the Windrunners messing with the air, which seems completely unrelated to the Full Lashing mechanically, and which Dalinar cannot do, so who knows if that one is even pure Adhesion or is a combo Surge, or just an "honorspren come from windspren so they can do random wind stuff" thing, or what).

Mind, Urithiru has a bubble of increased air pressure around it.

I also don't think that Adhesion can be separated into a purely Physical version and a full version any more than allomantic steel is a different ability than the Bands-enabled "my god, it's full of stars." The difference is purely one of power, not nature.

And as I said above, I do think the Honorblades would all be at the same level of power, which seems to be similar to Bondsmith level, at least in the hands of a Herald.

Another tidbit that might point to the level of investiture of the Honorblades is that Ishar mistakes Nightblood for one that's been corrupted.

I don't think that pressure manipulation can purely be a Windrunner Radiant thing, either it's a hybrid manifestation, something that comes easier to Windrunners than Bondsmiths, Dalinar being bad at his powers or something similar to when the Stormfather says that Dalinar's Surges won't serve him well if he seeks to use them for mere battle.

 

¤_¤

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5 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Dalinar and Ishar's Perpendicularity trick probably needs its own category as "Hybrid" Adhesion or something and there are presumably Cognitive manifestations as well, presumably the thing that Syl thinks Dalinar should be able to do to make her feel what Kaladin feels would be that kind.

Quote

And as I said above, I do think the Honorblades would all be at the same level of power, which seems to be similar to Bondsmith level, at least in the hands of a Herald.

Dalinar and Ishar's Perpendicularity trick is simply Spiritual Adhesion applied across the Three Realms to the Realms themselves.  Note that Jasnahs spren refers to it as "three that are one."

It's also important to consider that this is the first time the Honorblades have been wielded since Honor's death.  Honor had limited the Surges, in order to prevent whatever happened on Yolen.  Ishar is wielding a Bondsmith blade with no restraints.  It would be interesting to see what Taln could do with Stoneshaping in a world with no bounds on his power.

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25 minutes ago, Brgst13 said:

It's also important to consider that this is the first time the Honorblades have been wielded since Honor's death.

The Shin have been using them the whole time.

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56 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The Shin have been using them the whole time.

But this is the first known time a Herald has used their own honorblade since Honor's death. The Heralds know their surges better than anyone else, and also have access to more investiture than any Shin surgebinder. But we've also never seen a Herald and a non-herald use the same Honorblade, so we don't actually know what, if any, surgebinding buffs you get from specifically being a Herald (other than the access to investiture directly from the Spiritual Realm)

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Just now, Bearer of Agonies said:

But this is the first known time a Herald has used their own honorblade since Honor's death. The Heralds know their surges better than anyone else, and also have access to more investiture than any Shin surgebinder. But we've also never seen a Herald and a non-herald use the same Honorblade, so we don't actually know what, if any, surgebinding buffs you get from specifically being a Herald (other than the access to investiture directly from the Spiritual Realm)

Nale has had his blade for at least a few decades before Gavilar's assasination.

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On 10/10/2021 at 0:56 PM, Meg said:

When I read this I recalled this scene from Words of Radiance:

Huh, forgot all about bindspren. Weird. Wonder what's up there.

On 10/10/2021 at 0:56 PM, Meg said:

IMHO Spiritual Adhesion is creating a "spiritual" (or/and cognitive?) bond, as it was with Dalinar in Azir.

I guess it depends how you treat the terminology, because a lot of the magics do work via that behind-the-scenes anyway (Gravitation, for example). I'd probably define it more in the vein of the way you do later in the post, a "Spiritual" use is one that solely affects the Spiritual, while a "Physical" one is one that affects the Physical. I do think they work via the same mechanic, however, just differing specifics.

On 10/10/2021 at 0:56 PM, Meg said:

I don't think that Kaladin even thought about such a possibility. Would he know about Connection?

He probably vaguely knows about the concept as "that stuff Dalinar does and that Syl waxes on about sometimes", but I doubt he really understands it, yeah.

6 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I do disagree here, it could just be a magical binding agent that's more durable than the things bound.

Think about separating two things glued together, depending on the materials and glue, a glued thing might break before the glue gives.

That's fair.

6 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Dalinar's Duolingo and Ishar's shenanigans simply seem to apply the same concept to some more abstract non-Physical things, presumably Connection and Identity respectively, if I were to guess. Connection is known to enable language and Identity seems probable for making one thing behave as an extention of another.

I agree in the broad scope, but don't quite agree with the specific terminology here. I think it all works via Connection, just in different ways. Not every bond of knowledge (as the SF talks about it) means the same thing, and not everything has the same meaning when shared. So Dalinar might make a Connection that is the "knowledge" that he uh definitely 100% totally grew up in Azir nope ignore that Alethkar line right there he's certainly Azish and so grew up speaking it, while Ishar makes the person and ground both "know" that they're one body and the person's actual body tries to share the Stormlight with the ground, and the Full Lashing does... something similar but not identical, etc.

(Also, lol'd @ "Dalinar's Duolingo", Odium better hope he hasn't forgotten any of his Malwish lessons :unsure:)

6 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I don't think Tanavast would have played favourites with the Heralds, so would they all have access to the "broad spectrum" of their Surges?

Could Jezrien's Blade have enabled the opening of a Perpendicularity?

I think it might be plausible, depends on if it's pure Adhesion or involves Tension or is something else weird somehow. Though, if Ishar was specifically going to create the Oathpact I could see Tanny Boi giving his Blade admin rights but not the rest. But I'd lean towards either "yes" or "involves Tension", instead of the latter two options.

6 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I think these definitions are still useful tools for discussion, though it hadn't dawned on me that people were apparently treating "Physical" and "Spiritual" as separate things rather than separate aspects of one thing.

...

In the case of Adhesion, it is helpful to be able to talk about "narrow spectrum" Adhesion and "broad spectrum" Adhesion, as we don't see any hints that Windrunners can actively use any manifestation of Adhesion that doesn't directly affect the Physical.

Agreed, merely trying to think about what that means more.

6 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

And during the moment of achieving a new oath Windrunners do like Bondsmiths and pull Light out of nowhere.

I'm actually curious whether it's really out of nowhere or not, because in most of the main cases I can find it described (Kaladin's Second and Third, and Lopen's Second), they actually drain all the spheres around them in one go, and in the other main one (Kaladin's Fourth) he's in the storm and might be drawing from there. So is it truly drawing from the Spiritual, or more something tied into the same thing as the Reverse Lashing and their "strength of squires" bit, with Gravitation and Adhesion doing wonky things and drawing alllll the nearby Light to them?

6 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

My conjecture is then that all orders get a brief period of access to a "broad spectrum" of their powers with each oath, possibly due to the influx of investiture into the spiritweb upon attaining it. Most Orders however don't manifest this particularly visibly, as only orders with access to Adhesion seem able to pull Light out of nowhere.

That does make sense, I'm curious about that now. There's still that weird scene in tWoK where Shallan accidentally falls into Shadesmar after swearing an Ideal that then never happens again...

6 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I'd say that the terminology is fine, if unrefined and unstandardised.

Physical Adhesion should, IMO, indicate Adhesion acting in/upon the Physical, Spiritual Adhesion the same upon the Spiritual.

The former covers sticking things together, the latter messing with the cosmere components of the soul.

Though the more I think as I write the less adequate these sound.

Dalinar and Ishar's Perpendicularity trick probably needs its own category as "Hybrid" Adhesion or something and there are presumably Cognitive manifestations as well, presumably the thing that Syl thinks Dalinar should be able to do to make her feel what Kaladin feels would be that kind.

It works for that distinction I guess, but it doesn't distinguish between, say, a Full Lashing and what Ishar does, or Dalinar using a language and Ishar stealing a Radiant bond, or whatever in Elithanathile is happening with the spren for Ishar's experiments. So I think narrow scope vs broad scope are better terms for the difference at hand (Windrunners vs Bondsmiths), instead of just trying to categorize it by where the most noticeable effect is.

6 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Mind, Urithiru has a bubble of increased air pressure around it.

Tbf, Urithiru also has:

  • Doors
  • Heating
  • Suppressor
  • Pumps
  • Elevators

and in general just a lot of things, even including conjoined fabrials iirc. So I'm not sure that'll necessarily all fall under the Surges of Adhesion and Tension, as much as the Sibling being a super massive spren that's learned to use their Investiture more flexibly than most.

(fwiw, Navani mentions the pressure fabrial is actually an incredibly complex network of attractors bringing in air.)

(The Sibling is also referred to as "the parent" by the Oathgate spren, which is interesting but I have no idea the implications.)

7 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Another tidbit that might point to the level of investiture of the Honorblades is that Ishar mistakes Nightblood for one that's been corrupted.

Navani also comes to the same conclusion for some reason, iirc even though Szeth is right there and can tell them it presumably doesn't match any of them in appearance... so admittedly that might just be a case of "doesn't seem to be a spren, maybe it's that"! But either way they are absurdly powerful from what Brandon's said, yeah.

7 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I don't think that pressure manipulation can purely be a Windrunner Radiant thing, either it's a hybrid manifestation, something that comes easier to Windrunners than Bondsmiths, Dalinar being bad at his powers or something similar to when the Stormfather says that Dalinar's Surges won't serve him well if he seeks to use them for mere battle.

I do think that's most likely, yeah. I should note, by "honorspren come from windspren so they can do random wind stuff" I meant that perhaps it's something somewhat related to how the windspren can do wind things, as opposed to just something actually fully random, but I do still think it's less likely either way.

1 hour ago, Brgst13 said:

Dalinar and Ishar's Perpendicularity trick is simply Spiritual Adhesion applied across the Three Realms to the Realms themselves.  Note that Jasnahs spren refers to it as "three that are one."

Is this laid out and explained anywhere? I don't recall the exact mechanics being delved into but I might've just missed it.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

The Shin have been using them the whole time.

And apparently Szeth trained with all of the Surges, iirc, so this would mean even the Bondsmith Blade, because otherwise he'd be missing Tension from the list.

5 minutes ago, Bearer of Agonies said:

But this is the first known time a Herald has used their own honorblade since Honor's death. The Heralds know their surges better than anyone else, and also have access to more investiture than any Shin surgebinder. But we've also never seen a Herald and a non-herald use the same Honorblade, so we don't actually know what, if any, surgebinding buffs you get from specifically being a Herald (other than the access to investiture directly from the Spiritual Realm)

That's a different thing from "this is the first time the Honorblades have been wielded since Honor's death", though. (But also yeah as Frustration mentions, Nale's been using his for a few centuries now.)

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This is a lot of thread and it's way too late for me to read all the arguments and counterarguments, but it seems to me that if Adhesion's Full Lashing is indeed just a temporary re-writing of Spiritwebs so that Object A thinks that Object B is part of Object A... the applications of this could be substantial, yes? Could an Allomancer burn metal that's Adhesion'd to their person? Could, in a more contemporary time, fully-controllable prosthetics be made that run on Stormlight and a couple Full Lashings? Could it somehow be applied to unlock Spiritweb-specific invested tools? (I.E., Shardblades, Metalminds, Breaths) 

These are fun thoughts. 

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15 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

This is a lot of thread and it's way too late for me to read all the arguments and counterarguments, but it seems to me that if Adhesion's Full Lashing is indeed just a temporary re-writing of Spiritwebs so that Object A thinks that Object B is part of Object A... the applications of this could be substantial, yes? Could an Allomancer burn metal that's Adhesion'd to their person? Could, in a more contemporary time, fully-controllable prosthetics be made that run on Stormlight and a couple Full Lashings? Could it somehow be applied to unlock Spiritweb-specific invested tools? (I.E., Shardblades, Metalminds, Breaths) 

These are fun thoughts. 

Hmmm those are pretty interesting questions. I don't know that I have even theoretical answers to any of them, but it's something I'm definitely gonna be thinking on now.

Edited by LewsTherinTelescope
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6 hours ago, Brgst13 said:

Dalinar and Ishar's Perpendicularity trick is simply Spiritual Adhesion applied across the Three Realms to the Realms themselves.  Note that Jasnahs spren refers to it as "three that are one."

The narration in Dalinar's PoV does the same, saying that Dalinar "combined three Realms into one."

As I come to agree with LTT's criticism of the terminology the more I think about it, I don't think tossing it into the "Spiritual Adhesion" wastebasket is particularly helpful.

I'd almost want to place it in Physical instead, as it looks to me more like he's gluing the Realms together than causing some abstract concept of theirs to be the same.

Interesting to note here is that the Perpendicularity he creates seems to be backwards from "standard" Perpendicularities. Rather than a quantity of Investiture thinning the border between Realms, this Perpendicularity seems to manifest as a result of the border being artificially broken.

Difference between a river and a canal, basically.

I also feel like we've never gotten actual confirmation as to the mechanics of this, so I don't think we can be that sure it's Spiritual Adhesion.

4 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I agree in the broad scope, but don't quite agree with the specific terminology here. I think it all works via Connection, just in different ways. Not every bond of knowledge (as the SF talks about it) means the same thing, and not everything has the same meaning when shared.

Fair enough.

I miiight have failed to explain how I think of it.

I do think that it's all Connection in the background, that makes sense.

However, I don't think that all it touches is Connection.

5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

So Dalinar might make a Connection that is the "knowledge" that he uh definitely 100% totally grew up in Azir nope ignore that Alethkar line right there he's certainly Azish and so grew up speaking it, while Ishar makes the person and ground both "know" that they're one body and the person's actual body tries to share the Stormlight with the ground, and the Full Lashing does... something similar but not identical, etc.

So in the cases listed I'd say that it works something like this:

Dalinar's Duolingo I don't think is tricking the cosmere that he grew up in Azir exactly, I don't think he Connects to the right thing (Azish person vs country of Azir.) If it did it should be similar to the Southerner medallions, I think, giving an imperfect imitation. Rather I think he's Connecting his and the Azish person's Connections to eachother, not quite manipulating either but forging a "bridge" between them. Now his soul knows he's Azish (as opposed to Alethi from Azir) and Alethi, allowing him to more fluently speak the language.

Ishar's Investiture sink is the same concept applied differently, Connecting whatever defines the border of the self to something external (and presumably it could also be used to share Investiture between individuals.)

The Full Lashing makes anything touching the glowy spot Connect to what the glowy spot is on (possibly what is seen as a part of what is based on some metric like size or mass or is simply a perception thing.) This Connection brdges between the Physical aspects, while leaving the Spiritual markers (presumably) that define the self alone, which is why Light isn't drained. The inverse is true for the Investiture sink, which is why the unlucky Windrunners aren't glued to the ground.

5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I'm actually curious whether it's really out of nowhere or not, because in most of the main cases I can find it described (Kaladin's Second and Third, and Lopen's Second), they actually drain all the spheres around them in one go, and in the other main one (Kaladin's Fourth) he's in the storm and might be drawing from there. So is it truly drawing from the Spiritual, or more something tied into the same thing as the Reverse Lashing and their "strength of squires" bit, with Gravitation and Adhesion doing wonky things and drawing alllll the nearby Light to them?

I think this bit from Dawnshard can help clear that up a bit:

Quote

Huio dropped out of the sky directly in front of Lopen, spear in hand, but his glow faded. Had the things drained him too, or had he run out normally?

Lopen waved for him to go, to run for it with the sailors. But he stayed firm. Stupid chull-brain—he stepped squarely between the monster and Lopen. As it reared to swing, Huio looked right at Lopen, then turned toward the oncoming spear-leg and set himself.

"Huio!" Lopen cried.

His cousin exploded with light.

-Dawnshard, chapter 18

Seeing as Huio's glow fades and there are no known sources of Light nearby, I think it's safe to say that Windrunners pull Light directly from the Spiritual upon level up. (And from nearby gems for dramatic effect :P)

5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

That does make sense, I'm curious about that now. There's still that weird scene in tWoK where Shallan accidentally falls into Shadesmar after swearing an Ideal that then never happens again...

Yep, that sure happens.

Makes me wonder if part of why Shallan sucks at Soulcasting is trauma from that...

5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

It works for that distinction I guess, but it doesn't distinguish between, say, a Full Lashing and what Ishar does, or Dalinar using a language and Ishar stealing a Radiant bond, or whatever in Elithanathile is happening with the spren for Ishar's experiments.

Oh, that's definitely true. I don't think that the terms are useful beyond broad categorisation, a Full Lashing is Physical Adhesion like A-pewter is Physical Allomancy, one example of, not whole category.

5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

So I think narrow scope vs broad scope are better terms for the difference at hand (Windrunners vs Bondsmiths), instead of just trying to categorize it by where the most noticeable effect is.

Fair enough.

5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Tbf, Urithiru also has:

  • Doors
  • Heating
  • Suppressor
  • Pumps
  • Elevators

and in general just a lot of things, even including conjoined fabrials iirc.

Fair, fair.

Though the Suppressor is an Adhesion fabrial, it blatantly does Connection stuff.

I also think a bit of the functioning of Urithiru can be chalked up to "that thing what Bondsmiths can do" when they grab hold of the Surges of other Radiants.

That and auxiliary fabrials manifested on top of the Urithiru-fabrial.

5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

(fwiw, Navani mentions the pressure fabrial is actually an incredibly complex network of attractors bringing in air.)

I should really re-read RoW...

5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

(The Sibling is also referred to as "the parent" by the Oathgate spren, which is interesting but I have no idea the implications.)

A few ideas, it could be that they are partly or wholly of the Sibling, it could be that the Oathgates are auxiliary/sub-fabrials to the tower, child units to Urithiru, it could be that they have had a dependent relationship to the Sibling, the Oathgates were pressumably meant to be fueled with Towerlight, not requiring an external Investiture toll each time or it could be that the Sibling simply filled the role of parent to the Oathgate spren.

6 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Navani also comes to the same conclusion for some reason, iirc even though Szeth is right there and can tell them it presumably doesn't match any of them in appearance... so admittedly that might just be a case of "doesn't seem to be a spren, maybe it's that"!

Fair enough.

6 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I think it might be plausible, depends on if it's pure Adhesion or involves Tension or is something else weird somehow.

I think we can safely say that pulling Investiture from the Spiritual is pure Adhesion, not sure about the Perpendicularity.

I also find it plausible.

6 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Though, if Ishar was specifically going to create the Oathpact I could see Tanny Boi giving his Blade admin rights but not the rest.

could see that being the case, though I think it makes more sense if they are all roughly on the same level of power, each one being a walking storm does make the playing field look more even vs hundreds of Fused.

(I'm also not sure Ishar created the Oathpact, given the phrasing of "a Bondsmith." I suspect Tanavast. :ph34r:)

(Pffffff, Tanny Boi :lol:)

6 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

And apparently Szeth trained with all of the Surges, iirc, so this would mean even the Bondsmith Blade, because otherwise he'd be missing Tension from the list.

He sure has, we get to know that at Thaylen Field when he's chasing the Abrasion fused. He also refers to her slicking the King's Drop as "her version of a Lashing," which I find curious.

3 hours ago, The Technovore said:

Could an Allomancer burn metal that's Adhesion'd to their person? Could, in a more contemporary time, fully-controllable prosthetics be made that run on Stormlight and a couple Full Lashings? Could it somehow be applied to unlock Spiritweb-specific invested tools? (I.E., Shardblades, Metalminds, Breaths) 

I don't think a simple Full Lashing's gonna be enough for any of these cases.

For the allomancer I'm landing somewhere between maaaaybe and "only if you can burn the iron in your hemoglobin." I don't think that the metal being part of you is what would do it.

For the prosthetic I think you'd need something like Ishar's Investiture sink, and probably something more to let your cognition interact with it.

As for the last thing, I think yes, that probably only requires a tweak of Ishar's Investiture sink and attaching a person on either end. Or it would muddle both to the extent that neither could access things normally keyed to them for the duration.

 

¤_¤

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3 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I'd almost want to place it in Physical instead, as it looks to me more like he's gluing the Realms together than causing some abstract concept of theirs to be the same.

Reminds me of the stuff Syl and Kalak mention about having Connection to the Spiritual, Physical, and Cognitive Realms... Still not sure how that works when Connection is a Spiritual attribute but I guess it does :lol:

3 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Dalinar's Duolingo I don't think is tricking the cosmere that he grew up in Azir exactly, I don't think he Connects to the right thing (Azish person vs country of Azir.) If it did it should be similar to the Southerner medallions, I think, giving an imperfect imitation. Rather I think he's Connecting his and the Azish person's Connections to eachother, not quite manipulating either but forging a "bridge" between them. Now his soul knows he's Azish (as opposed to Alethi from Azir) and Alethi, allowing him to more fluently speak the language.

That's a fair distinction, you're right. Fits more with the "unite" theme as well.

3 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Seeing as Huio's glow fades and there are no known sources of Light nearby, I think it's safe to say that Windrunners pull Light directly from the Spiritual upon level up. (And from nearby gems for dramatic effect :P)

Ah, good catch. There are people nearby that may have gems (Lopen's only got drained very shortly before), but I don't know that it'd be enough to account for such a large blast.

3 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Makes me wonder if part of why Shallan sucks at Soulcasting is trauma from that...

Huh, honestly yeah that makes sense.

3 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Though the Suppressor is an Adhesion fabrial, it blatantly does Connection stuff.

The suppressor does... stuff, for sure, but I have no idea what the mechanism is. Off the top of my head you have to account for:

  • Knocking Radiants unconscious/Fused when normal
  • Making Stormlight work more slowly for healing/Voidlight when normal
  • NOT blocking (near) 4th Ideal Radiants due to strength of bond (but iirc Kal does feel a pressure)/Unmade when normal (but only sometimes, other times the Sibling was strong enough to suppress them)
  • Knocking Windrunners less unconscious than other orders
  • NOT blocking Honorblades despite the bond there being extremely shallow
  • NOT blocking Kaladin's Adhesion or Lift's Progression
  • NOT having a noticeable effect on Lift besides Abrasion being gone iirc?
  • Allows a Reverse Lashing to be pushed through because of the Adhesion involved, but it takes active effort
  • Can be healed away for 10 hours but then comes back
  • Makes it harder to summon the spren as a Blade, and Teft is only able to summon a barely-substantial one with extreme effort from both him and Phendorana

I've not seen any theory yet that really accounts for it all.

4 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I also think a bit of the functioning of Urithiru can be chalked up to "that thing what Bondsmiths can do" when they grab hold of the Surges of other Radiants.

Eh, the Tower's fabrials are made of the Sibling manifesting themselves. Dalinar and Shallan have to both do things (even if they don't fully understand those things) to get it to work. Not really the same thing imo.

4 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

That and auxiliary fabrials manifested on top of the Urithiru-fabrial.

That does get some, yeah, but several of those (such as the heating fabrial and attractors) are explicitly noted to be part of the Sibling, and I'd find it really weird if the Tower at first came without doors or elevators lol.

4 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I should really re-read RoW...

Yeah I really need to as well, there's soooo much.

4 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

A few ideas, it could be that they are partly or wholly of the Sibling, it could be that the Oathgates are auxiliary/sub-fabrials to the tower, child units to Urithiru, it could be that they have had a dependent relationship to the Sibling, the Oathgates were pressumably meant to be fueled with Towerlight, not requiring an external Investiture toll each time or it could be that the Sibling simply filled the role of parent to the Oathgate spren.

I'd just been assuming the Sibling created them like the SF makes honorspren, but I suppose that's not certain. More I meant if the Sibling can create new spren of that power level and with whichever Surge they want that feels like it has Implications for either the flexibility of Bondsmith spren or the way spren are made, but I'm not really sure what those implications are, lmao.

4 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

could see that being the case, though I think it makes more sense if they are all roughly on the same level of power, each one being a walking storm does make the playing field look more even vs hundreds of Fused.

True enough lol

4 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

(I'm also not sure Ishar created the Oathpact, given the phrasing of "a Bondsmith." I suspect Tanavast. :ph34r:)

Listen if Syl considers the Vessel of Honor a mere Bondsmith I give up xD

The Stormfather does in Oathbringer say this bit, though:

Quote

Yours is the power Ishar once held. Before he was Herald of Luck, they called him Binder of Gods. He was the founder of the Oathpact. No Radiant is capable of more than you. Yours is the power of Connection, of joining men and worlds, minds and souls. Your Surges are the greatest of all, though they will be impotent if you seek to wield them for mere battle.

And Ash talks about it as well:

Quote

“I didn’t know anything of what the Bondsmiths did. That was always Ishar’s purview. My father would occasionally discuss matters of deep Realmatic Theory with him—but I didn’t care for it. Why should I? Ishar had it in hand.”

“He forged the Oathpact,” Jasnah said. “The … binding that made you immortal and trapped the Voidbringers in another realm of reality.”

“Braize isn’t another realm of reality,” Ash said. “It’s a planet. You can see it in the sky, along with Ashyn—the Tranquiline Halls, you call it. But yeah, the Oathpact. He did that. We all simply went along with it.” She shrugged.

So it does sound like Ishar actually made the Oathpact, which is... wild.

4 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

He also refers to her slicking the King's Drop as "her version of a Lashing," which I find curious.

Huh, weird. Reminds me of some weird phrasing from the deleted Jasnah scene someone on the Discord pointed out recently:

Quote

“The knife,” she whispered, opening her eyes, angry at how her voice trembled, “the knife was unexpected.” She breathed in and out, trying to calm herself. That puffed out the last of her Stormlight, which she had drawn in at the last possible moment, then used like a lash to pull herself into this place. It had kept her alive, healed her.

...

For years she’d been trying to get him to bring her into his world. Though she could peek into Shadesmar on her own—and even slip one foot in, so to speak—entering fully required Ivory’s help. How had it happened? The academic wanted to record her experiences and tease out the process, so that perhaps she could replicate it. She’d used Stormlight, hadn’t she? An outpouring of it, thrust into Shadesmar. A lash which had pulling her, like gravitation from a distant place, unseen…

:blink:

Jasnah please why no why LASH and GRAVITATION aaaaaa

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23 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Reminds me of the stuff Syl and Kalak mention about having Connection to the Spiritual, Physical, and Cognitive Realms... Still not sure how that works when Connection is a Spiritual attribute but I guess it does :lol:

I'd say that it's a Spiritual attribute, but that doesn't mean that it only interacts with other Spiritual stuff.

It's just something like the sum of your Connections, be that to country, family, people in general, etc.

Look at the Singers acting like people from where they were were "supposed" to act.

34 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

That's a fair distinction, you're right. Fits more with the "unite" theme as well.

Thanks :)

36 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Ah, good catch. There are people nearby that may have gems (Lopen's only got drained very shortly before), but I don't know that it'd be enough to account for such a large blast.

Yeah, I don't think there would have been enough Light present to account for that.

37 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

The suppressor does... stuff, for sure, but I have no idea what the mechanism is. Off the top of my head you have to account for:

  • Knocking Radiants unconscious/Fused when normal
  • Making Stormlight work more slowly for healing/Voidlight when normal
  • NOT blocking (near) 4th Ideal Radiants due to strength of bond (but iirc Kal does feel a pressure)/Unmade when normal (but only sometimes, other times the Sibling was strong enough to suppress them)
  • Knocking Windrunners less unconscious than other orders
  • NOT blocking Honorblades despite the bond there being extremely shallow
  • NOT blocking Kaladin's Adhesion or Lift's Progression
  • NOT having a noticeable effect on Lift besides Abrasion being gone iirc?
  • Allows a Reverse Lashing to be pushed through because of the Adhesion involved, but it takes active effort
  • Can be healed away for 10 hours but then comes back
  • Makes it harder to summon the spren as a Blade, and Teft is only able to summon a barely-substantial one with extreme effort from both him and Phendorana

I've not seen any theory yet that really accounts for it all.

Fair enough.

To me it feels like it's obviously manipulating Adhesion, though it's basically thrown in reverse, weakening bonds rather than strengthening them.

It also uses garnets, which sit on the opposite side of the Surgebinding chart from sapphires.

If it's manipulating Adhesion it also makes some sense that it can't really suppress Adhesion, just because a power should not be able to go recursive.

Honorblades are a lot of Investiture and come directly from Honor, that might just make them overcome the suppression. They also might have a built-in Adhesion component, given that at least the Heralds can pull Light out of nowhere.

But I will admit that I don't know enough to properly account for all of these, though I think the broad statement of it being an Adhesion fabrial is entirely true.

49 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Eh, the Tower's fabrials are made of the Sibling manifesting themselves. Dalinar and Shallan have to both do things (even if they don't fully understand those things) to get it to work. Not really the same thing imo.

Fair, fair.

We really need more info on the Sibling, they might simply have been given rudimentary access to all the Surges for the purpose of being a city. I do think that the tidbits of "the Surge of binding and oaths" and "a Bondsmith bound other Surges" might imply that there's a lot you can do with Adhesion.

55 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

That does get some, yeah, but several of those (such as the heating fabrial and attractors) are explicitly noted to be part of the Sibling, and I'd find it really weird if the Tower at first came without doors or elevators lol.

Huh, it had never occured to me before that the Tower was made around the Heart rather than the Heart being installed in the Tower...

57 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

More I meant if the Sibling can create new spren of that power level and with whichever Surge they want that feels like it has Implications for either the flexibility of Bondsmith spren or the way spren are made, but I'm not really sure what those implications are, lmao.

Fair, fair.

Now I want to see Oathgate equivalent fabrials for the other Surges.

59 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Listen if Syl considers the Vessel of Honor a mere Bondsmith I give up xD

Never said anything about mere. 

The way I see it, Honor might be seen as the ultimate Bondsmith.

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

The Stormfather does in Oathbringer say this bit, though:

Quote

Yours is the power Ishar once held. Before he was Herald of Luck, they called him Binder of Gods. He was the founder of the Oathpact. No Radiant is capable of more than you. Yours is the power of Connection, of joining men and worlds, minds and souls. Your Surges are the greatest of all, though they will be impotent if you seek to wield them for mere battle.

And Ash talks about it as well:

Quote

“I didn’t know anything of what the Bondsmiths did. That was always Ishar’s purview. My father would occasionally discuss matters of deep Realmatic Theory with him—but I didn’t care for it. Why should I? Ishar had it in hand.”

“He forged the Oathpact,” Jasnah said. “The … binding that made you immortal and trapped the Voidbringers in another realm of reality.”

“Braize isn’t another realm of reality,” Ash said. “It’s a planet. You can see it in the sky, along with Ashyn—the Tranquiline Halls, you call it. But yeah, the Oathpact. He did that. We all simply went along with it.” She shrugged.

So it does sound like Ishar actually made the Oathpact, which is... wild.

I'd argue that someone being the founder of something doesn't mean that they themself made the thing be a thing.

It was Ishar's idea, but until we get it in a book or WoB I refuse to believe that a mortal had that kind of power unasisted.

Be it Dawnshard or Honor doing like Vin-Preservation to Elend, I don't think "just" Ishar with his Honorblade could have done it, it feels ridiculous in the context of Roshar, which is saying something.

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

:blink:

Jasnah please why no why LASH and GRAVITATION aaaaaa

Hmm, yeah, what you said.

Maybe we can finally get some workable terminology from mister trained with all the Surges next book.

 

¤_¤

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9 hours ago, The Technovore said:

This is a lot of thread and it's way too late for me to read all the arguments and counterarguments, but it seems to me that if Adhesion's Full Lashing is indeed just a temporary re-writing of Spiritwebs so that Object A thinks that Object B is part of Object A... the applications of this could be substantial, yes? Could an Allomancer burn metal that's Adhesion'd to their person? Could, in a more contemporary time, fully-controllable prosthetics be made that run on Stormlight and a couple Full Lashings? Could it somehow be applied to unlock Spiritweb-specific invested tools? (I.E., Shardblades, Metalminds, Breaths) 

These are fun thoughts. 

With enough Connection knowledge and ability, you could convince the body to simply have the missing limb.

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This makes sense but I have no idea why it can also manipulate pressure. If the Windrunners didn't get more squires, I'd say that pressure manipulation is a resonance.

Edited by ScadrianTank
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8 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Look at the Singers acting like people from where they were were "supposed" to act.

I think Connection affecting other Realms is a bit different from specifically having Connection tying you to the Realm itself (Syl mentions if she goes too far from Kal, her Connection to the Physical Realm fades). 

10 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

To me it feels like it's obviously manipulating Adhesion, though it's basically thrown in reverse, weakening bonds rather than strengthening them.

That was my first thought, but the whole thing's weird enough I've given up on fully understanding it lol

(Oh yeah, and it stops fabrials as well, iirc, which feels even weirder to me... it's all complicated.)

11 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Honorblades are a lot of Investiture and come directly from Honor, that might just make them overcome the suppression. They also might have a built-in Adhesion component, given that at least the Heralds can pull Light out of nowhere.

That's fair. 

12 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

We really need more info on the Sibling

Lmao seriously yeah

12 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

they might simply have been given rudimentary access to all the Surges for the purpose of being a city

I'm not sure if I agree with this bit, but I could see the purpose (Intent, you might say) of the spren having some relevance to what they can do even beyond Surges, true. 

13 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I do think that the tidbits of "the Surge of binding and oaths" and "a Bondsmith bound other Surges" might imply that there's a lot you can do with Adhesion.

Yeah.... Bondsmiths do be scary.

14 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Huh, it had never occured to me before that the Tower was made around the Heart rather than the Heart being installed in the Tower...

I don't know that I'd quite say the Tower was made around the heart as much as they, both being parts of the Sibling, were designed by Honor and Cultivation with both in mind to work together. Things like the Sibling manifesting as veins of metal and gem in the walls seem difficult to add in after the fact, but also I doubt they could stand on their own. 

16 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Now I want to see Oathgate equivalent fabrials for the other Surges.

That would be wild. 

17 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Never said anything about mere. 

Lmaoooo fair enough :P

18 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Be it Dawnshard or Honor doing like Vin-Preservation to Elend, I don't think "just" Ishar with his Honorblade could have done it, it feels ridiculous in the context of Roshar, which is saying something.

Then again, Ishar thinks he can "reset" it on his own... I think the Honorblades are capable of drawing through far more power than we tend to assume, though Honor probably used to keep them limited most of the time when he was alive to prevent Ashyn 2.0. But ultimately they are pieces of Honor himself that grant the bearer direct access to his essence (I think the wording was something like that), so I can see them getting pretty crazy. 

21 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Maybe we can finally get some workable terminology from mister trained with all the Surges next book.

Though if Szeth thinks Abrasion is a Lashing... :D

Side note, I love how the Windrunners using the Lashing terminology just comes from Kaladin overhearing Szeth mention the word in one of his insane rambles one time, lol. 

12 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

This makes sense but I have no idea why it can also manipulate pressure. If the Windrunners didn't get more squire, I'd say that pressure manipulation is a resonance.

Hey if Lightweavers can have a gazillion passive effects so can Windrunners :lol:

I think it's plausible that honorspren sort of being windspren influences the way the power can manifest, in addition to power levels. Just spitballing, though, and that doesn't answer everything either way. 

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1 hour ago, Leuthie said:

With enough Connection knowledge and ability, you could convince the body to simply have the missing limb.

That would be a manipulation of Perception or Identity, not Connection, unless you want to re-attach the same limb.

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23 hours ago, Frustration said:

That would be a manipulation of Perception or Identity, not Connection, unless you want to re-attach the same limb.

You would have to change the Perception or Identity, but you'd accomplish this through "convincing" the change via Connection.

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